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Author Topic: No I.T for newbies  (Read 1465 times)
5150
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« on: July 15, 2002, 07:34:39 PM »

Hello all this is my first post.

I was just wondering is anyone here feeling the impact of not getting an I.T job? Am just about to graduate from school for MCSE courses and got a couple of certs, and working towards my MCSE, and Linux+, But am having the hardest time finding a job in so cal, am not a so-called brain dumper I actually went to school and studied, and learned rather than reading and memorizing TK‘«÷s. Do you think that employers are hesitant to hire me because of so many people doing this? Or is it because the economy is crappy right now? :confused:

-5150-


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RichardJW
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2002, 07:46:24 PM »

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is anyone here feeling the impact of not getting an I.T job?
Yes. I am rapidly running out of money.
Quote
Do you think that employers are hesitant to hire me because of so many people doing this?
Most jobs on hire are asking for experience. Let's make this clearer - most jobs on hire are demanding huge amounts of experience and expertise, and these are highly paying jobs. There are entry level jobs but you are competing with many. It is not clear to me what you can do about this.
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is it because (of) the economy ?
Partly. When the economy gets hit it seems the 1st budget to suffer is I.T. within departments. The economy is set to grow but this will take a while. I.T. is here to stay - when people make remarks like "Oh, the market is saturated" or "people in I.T. should no longer expect very high paid salaries" this really means nothing except within a short term framework.
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NickL
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2002, 08:54:37 PM »

Certifications alone are not enough anymore. You need a BS degree at a minimum along with some experience. But to even have a snowballs chance of making it into an interview, you need that degree. Certifications should come later.
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2002, 09:05:43 PM »

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But to even have a snowballs chance of making it into an interview, you need that degree.
I know there are many discussions on this. It depends what area of I.T. you are going for. Programming for example - don't see where a degree comes into it. Hey you tell me, what use is it? Nothing really. Divxguy and similiar would like to believe it is - they can argue it all they like but not the case. I'm not going to bother and try to give evidence - either way it gets dumbed down one way or another. Experience far and away more important than a degree. In the end it boils down to this - do you have the ability?

Well, do ya? Smiley
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TW2001
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2002, 12:02:00 AM »

Richard, In America even in the programming jobs you are seeing employers wanting degrees.
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RichardJW
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2002, 06:51:14 AM »

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Richard, In America even in the programming jobs you are seeing employers wanting degrees.
Then people sure have it lucky in the UK because the large majority of programming jobs are not requiring a degree - degree no doubt advantageous nonetheless.
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5150
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2002, 07:01:48 PM »

well am into programming but i do have Certs and just a A.S degree and still no interviews and no jobs.
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Nicole
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2002, 07:42:47 PM »

The market is saturated, particularly with certified newbies, and with folks with 1, 2 or 3 years experience looking for *any* job... well, it rolls downhill.

Even if you end up with a "get a job" kind of job, find SOME way to put your skills to use, and don't overextend or overmarket your abilities.  Volunteer to fix up the church computer, offer your services to local charities, etc.  The more you get to use it, the more you'll learn on the practical side, and the more likely it is that you'll end up recommended by someone who knows someone for one of those unadvertised gigs -- just about the only place newbies are picking up work today with the exception of high turn-over phone support.

One way to start adding 'ooomph' to your resume if you're a programmer is to get involved with an open source project or write some shareware.  Good shareware programs can turn into serious moneymakers, so there's always the possibility of raising some cash.  And open source projects tend to develop a community of folks and you can learn a lot... as well as make a few potential industry contacts.
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RichardJW
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2002, 08:26:57 PM »

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One way to start adding 'ooomph' to your resume if you're a programmer is to get involved with an open source project or write some shareware. Good shareware programs can turn into serious moneymakers, so there's always the possibility of raising some cash. And open source projects tend to develop a community of folks and you can learn a lot... as well as make a few potential industry contacts.
Such things MAY improve the look of your CV - but there is a problem here and I will explain.

Firstly let's say you write a few code snippets and paste them up on a few rent free pages somewhere. You mention this on your CV. Is your average recruiter going to be looking at them? No. And if they are - do you think they can read the code? Again no. Already you've wasted three days and got probably nothing back for your troubles.

Open source MIGHT be worth looking into if only for the industry connections. Generally you better hope you're a C or Java programmer - now you're in it for the long haul. If you don't mind sifting through 1000's of lines of other peoples' code with scant or non-existent documentation then maybe this one is for you.

Shareware! Now we're talking business! Or are we? Remember, you need a good idea first. You must consider many things - whatever you consider you want to end up with a professional standard result. This takes time - lot's and lot's and lot's of it. You have to consider providing HTML help, documentation, support etc. etc. You have to carefully consider beta testing. When you finally got this thing done, though it probably never ends - such is the nature of things, then stick the download link to it on your CV. Maybe the recruiter will buy the thing.

I am not trying to sound cynical (though probably being very successful at doing so) - just trying to point out that the effort and time put in may not reap much in the way of dividends as far as gaining employment is concerned.

Yes, I go along with this: if you have time to play with, time being money, then by all means look into these things.
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kingtj
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2002, 01:53:04 PM »

Well, I have around 10 years of experience working in I.T. - and I'm currently unemployed.  I've been trying to find another job since May, and haven't had a single interview yet - despite responding to over 50 want-ads.  (I'd say at least 40 to 45 of the 50 were for jobs that I'd be an excellent "fit" for, given my past experience.)

I'm looking for something along the lines of system administration (Linux, NT, 2000, XP or Win '9x), or alternately, even a decent technician job or possibly something doing technical writing or purchasing of hardware/software/peripherals.

Here in the midwest, I've seen quite a few job listings for programmers and database administrators.  Beyond that, there seems to be a demand for people with experience using specialty software packages.  (Primarily ERP packages such as J.D. Edwards OneWorld or PeopleSoft, but also various CRM packages and specialized retail sales/management packages.)  General systems administration positions are relatively scarce.

Lately, I've also seen some demand for sysadmin jobs requiring a "top secret clearance".  I assume these are for NT administration for govt. contractors or financial firms.

In general, I'd say the "crappy economy" is a big problem for I.T. right now.  Jobs are out there, but employers have gotten extremely picky - since they have so many candidates to chose from.  I get the impression many are looking for that "needle in a haystack" candidate who just happens to have years of experience using all of the exact same software packages they use, plus a college degree and at least 2 related certifications.




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Originally posted by 5150
Hello all this is my first post.

I was just wondering is anyone here feeling the impact of not getting an I.T job? Am just about to graduate from school for MCSE courses and got a couple of certs, and working towards my MCSE, and Linux+, But am having the hardest time finding a job in so cal, am not a so-called brain dumper I actually went to school and studied, and learned rather than reading and memorizing TK‘«÷s. Do you think that employers are hesitant to hire me because of so many people doing this? Or is it because the economy is crappy right now? :confused:

-5150-


‘«£Knowledge is contagious get infected‘«ō
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marathoner
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2002, 06:48:21 PM »

that kingtj is (or looks) 40+ in age.  

Age discrimination is rampant and very little is being done about it.  

What you can do:  

Don't put dates on anything.  Even if you're younger than 40.  

Also, don't disparage putting up church pages.  Just the fact that you've done it is good enough for the clueless, of course they won't look at it or understand the code if they did.  They might understand if they liked how the page worked or the look of it, though.  

Just proves the point that looks are a BIG DEAL.
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RichardJW
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2002, 08:02:47 PM »

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that kingtj is (or looks) 40+ in age.
Well kingtj? I know I don't. Smiley Actually, I've been running for years and years and the accumulative effect kind of pays off (I am in my mid thirties.)

I had enough folly to apply for a junior position some time back - told the recruiter my age and she retorted, "you're getting on a bit!" She hastened to add, "So am I! So am I!" thus watering it down a bit. But the moral really is - in your forties, old? You have got to be joking! I'm sure I'll live way past my eighties and have a good laugh at all this - probably just retiring around then because my superannuation messed up.

Okay so I come into I.T. late in the game - what was I doing before then? Don't ask ... probably best. Already I am a whole lot smarter than in my twenties. I've worked with twenty year old's in this area and the tendency was of arrogance, rudeness, sick leave and general ignorance. If I look back to my twenties I was not a whole lot different ... Smiley
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