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mikeghet1
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« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2005, 08:04:55 AM »

"Knowing a programming language doesn't make you a programmer... programming *to me* has more to do with effectively using the language and using/designing effective algorithms to accomplish the tasks at hand.

A monkey could learn C,C++, or Java but only an Indian can learn to program.


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if you program something are you not a programmer?  if you program something are you not programming?

if being a programmer means getting paid, then yes, there are a lot of people that can program, but aren't programmers.  I don't think a monkey can learn how to program, but if they can, then that says alot about the people that don't know how to.  you could write a 'hello world' program, then you would have programmed.  I assume what you're suggesting is that a certain level of understanding determines if one is a programmer or merely someone that prgramms(doesn't make sense), because as i said someone that programs is a programmer.  If you're not suggesting a programmer is determined by their job title, then what are you using as you measurement?  perhaps skills?  If so, then what skills would a person need to be considered a programmer?

To gomar;  the people that programmed the interface for this website are probably not indian...the people that program your video games are not indian, by nationality.  All the IT places where A+ techs work at usualy have a software develpment team, which aren't indian(by nationality...usually).  Sure there are jobs going to india...what jobs though?  Usually jobs that require no other skills except knowing how to programm...essentially one dimensional people that can't make it in a Western work force.

Type in java at monster.com or 'c++' and you'll see how many jobs there are.  The thing is that normally to get a programming job you need several skills(a degree), whereas a CCNA can go get his/her often one-skill-needed 25-35k job at some helpdesk or Jr network admin, but so can a computer science/eletrical engineer major.  Except the person with the degree typically has a much better fiancial future.

I found a website(infact anti-bush somewhat) and in my state, california, and DC they didn't have any IT jobs gone.  Maybe it wasn't exactly accurate, but I honestly haven't read many recent readings about US jobs going to india.  I do read, however, about the manufacturing jobs going to China/mexico, etc.

gomar, maybe you can expand on the lack of jobs in the pgoramming field, which is large.
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ChrisDfer
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« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2005, 12:59:51 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by mikeghet1

if you program something are you not a programmer?  if you program something are you not programming?


That's like saying "if you build a bird house, are you not a carpenter?" Seriously now... There is more to programming then knowing the syntax.




Quote
Originally posted by mikeghet1

if being a programmer means getting paid, then yes, there are a lot of people that can program, but aren't programmers.  I don't think a monkey can learn how to program, but if they can, then that says alot about the people that don't know how to.  you could write a 'hello world' program, then you would have programmed.  I assume what you're suggesting is that a certain level of understanding determines if one is a programmer or merely someone that prgramms(doesn't make sense), because as i said someone that programs is a programmer.  If you're not suggesting a programmer is determined by their job title, then what are you using as you measurement?  perhaps skills?  If so, then what skills would a person need to be considered a programmer?


Getting paid or having the job title programmer has nothing to do with it(most the time)... Someone could be a freaking plumber and be considered a programmer if they knew what they were doing, I am betting there are also people out there who happen to be programmers in their jobs, who couldn't really program anything...

I think you were actually right when you said you become a programmer once you reach a certain understanding... but it goes further then just knowing language, it has to do with understanding proper design, effective use of algorithms, understanding of the systems being worked on...

So someone who writes scripts to test programs are not programmers. Someone who writes stupid php scripts(me) are not programmers, someone who writes simple operating systems in C and ASM(me), although cool, are not programmers. I suppose some would say the correct terms would be hobbyist programmers vs. programmers, but I do not think that is fitting either... because a garbage man(sanitation engineer) who managed to gain the knowledge level needed to be what *I consider* a programmer is obviously a programmer....
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mikeghet1
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« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2005, 10:16:28 PM »

"I think you were actually right when you said you become a programmer once you reach a certain understanding... but it goes further then just knowing language, it has to do with understanding proper design, effective use of algorithms, understanding of the systems being worked on...
"

a freshly graduated CS major that applies for a 'programming' job and gets it is a programmer, right?  a CS student 'should' know about algorithms, software engineering concepts and the architecture of the device they are programming, yet not have a so-called 'programming' job...wouldn't sucha person still be a programmer?  i think job and/or skills determine your title.  to me, the plumber that knows about algorithms, software engineering concepts and computer architecture is a programmer, even if he only gets paid to fix my sink.  

:cool:
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moreilly
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« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2005, 03:55:51 PM »

Hi, how is the transition from admin to programmer going?
I'm in a similar situation; admin on a Novell network, but I'm interested in programming.  Current, I am taking a C++ class as a foundation.  Soon I hope have more career direction such as C++, Web development (Dreamweaver, Frontpage, Flash, and even SQL and Cold Fusion are possibilities).
Hope to see your transition is going well.  How is the progress going?

Matthew
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