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Boulware5
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« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2003, 11:57:48 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by Tennman
Bouiware5 are you still studying for your BS degree?


Yeah.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Ben Franklin

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jimbo2002
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2003, 04:03:26 PM »

These forums and this web site are testimony to the fact that freedom of speech and the right to exchange our views freely are values which still exist. Somewhere along the line somebody had to " take a bullet" for us to keep those simple, but often taken for granted values. If you dont like it you can always go live in china, or iran or wherever.
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Papiya
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« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2003, 04:06:21 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by jimbo2002
These forums and this web site are testimony to the fact that freedom of speech and the right to exchange our views freely are values which still exist. Somewhere along the line somebody had to " take a bullet" for us to keep those simple, but often taken for granted values. If you dont like it you can always go live in china, or iran or wherever.


The threats to freedoms in America come mainly from other Americans, not foreigners. If more people would be willing to "take a bullet" for freedom, then your patriot acts may have never got off the ground. The fighting that is going on now has little, if anything, to do with freedom. That is just rhetoric. Self-defence in the case of attacking Al-Qaeda, greed and revenge in the case against Iraq, but certainly not freedom.
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WPFossil
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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2003, 04:15:39 PM »

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Originally posted by Amerikkka
The WTC was no big deal


Stop it.

Who are you kidding?

Even Dilberts deserve life and freedom.

God Bless America.
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WPFossil
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2003, 04:17:47 PM »

You make me want to tear down my stupid office and build a cubicle.  Behave yourself, XXXXXXX!!!
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Papiya
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2003, 04:18:52 PM »

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Originally posted by WPFossil
Stop it.

Who are you kidding?

Even Dilberts deserve life and freedom.

God Bless America.


Amerikkka is so fatuous that I have blocked him/her/it. I suggest the rest of you do the same, as the blighter's just trying to get on people's nerves. Anyone who thinks that innocent people deserve to die, no matter what nationality, is a half-wit.
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jimbo2002
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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2003, 04:30:00 PM »

First off, I am not american, actually I am scotttish, and I see freedom as a generic right of all people, people power, if you like. You are making the mistake of seeing any kind of desire for freedom in isolation and trying to find a hidden agenda. If the people of america, or anywhere else for that matter feel sufficiently threatened then do they not have the right to voice concern. For smaller nations this may be nothing more than the voice of a long and persistent opposition. Look what ghandi acheived with passive resistance. But lets be real, America has all the toys in the box, and if you take them on then you have to be prepared for the consequences, you dont mess with the biggest guy in the playground withiut risk.
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Papiya
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« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2003, 04:37:33 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by jimbo2002
First off, I am not american, actually I am scotttish, and I see freedom as a generic right of all people, people power, if you like. You are making the mistake of seeing any kind of desire for freedom in isolation and trying to find a hidden agenda. If the people of america, or anywhere else for that matter feel sufficiently threatened then do they not have the right to voice concern. For smaller nations this may be nothing more than the voice of a long and persistent opposition. Look what ghandi acheived with passive resistance. But lets be real, America has all the toys in the box, and if you take them on then you have to be prepared for the consequences, you dont mess with the biggest guy in the playground withiut risk.


True, the problem is, if someone goes after America, then anyne else who vaguely fits the descriptiojn of those who attacked it are likely targets. Gandhi achevied a good bit with passive resistance. He acheived a lot more through the ignorance of the Indian people who put great stock in "holy men" as well as his political acumen.

And freedom is not actually a 'right' . . . it is something that has to be fought for . . . in reality, the powerful are the only ones who by default have any 'rights' at all.

I am not seeing any hidden agenda here . . . although the attack on Iraq was the act of a bully going after a helpless nation in my eyes. As for North Korea . . . which *is* a threat . . . I don't think that anything they could do could get America's attention, even the announcement that they are making nuclear weapons.

I am not a fool . . . I see things like this going on in my own country . . . the politicians say that pakistan is the source of most of our miseries and spend time trying to make us think that that is the case, when in fact, the ones we have to worry with are other indians who take away our rights to boost their own power. Its the same anywhere.
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jimbo2002
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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2003, 04:51:38 PM »

Sorry, I have to take issue here, I think freedom is a right, have you heard the phrase " born free" wild animals and people are born free, its our environment and education that dictate how that feedom will shape up. As for Iraq, this is the country that invaded Kuwait, and some of them may not share your views. The world is becoming a more dangerous place as resources become scarcer and nuclear capable weapons more common. Someone has to impose some sort of order, if not America then who would you prefer.
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WPFossil
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2003, 04:53:09 PM »

It's spelled America, by the way

Signed,

Irish
Celtic
American
:cool:
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2003, 04:57:27 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by jimbo2002
Sorry, I have to take issue here, I think freedom is a right, have you heard the phrase " born free" wild animals and people are born free, its our environment and education that dictate how that feedom will shape up. As for Iraq, this is the country that invaded Kuwait, and some of them may not share your views. The world is becoming a more dangerous place as resources become scarcer and nuclear capable weapons more common. Someone has to impose some sort of order, if not America then who would you prefer.


Freedom is not a "right" . . . if it were a right, then everyone would have it. It is something that must be enforced otherwise you lose it . . . and if you are concerned about your freedom, then your most likely enemies are your own countrymen, since most of the time they are the ones that rule over you, not little Arab suicide bombers.

I would prefer for it to not be *only* America doing whatever it pleases to whoever it pleases for whatever reason it pleases. Any time you have one country ruling over others, that country will always do what is best for *them*, regardless of the harm it causes to anyone else. Countries are not moral entities, they seek their own power and not "freedom for all". Again, I refer you to North Korea . . . while America is busy starting a civil war in Iraq and getting nothing obvious done, Kim Jong Il is making nuclear weapons. Why not focus all (oh, hell . . . at least some!) of that energy on attacking a *real* threat instead of a straw man?
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Papiya
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« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2003, 04:58:15 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by WPFossil
It's spelled America, by the way

Signed,

Irish
Celtic
American
:cool:


I was referring to the user Amerikka, who is obviously a troll.
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mindmesh
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« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2003, 05:04:09 PM »

Hmmm. I love these threads, although once I put in my two sense they usually get closed.

I agreed with the war in Iraq. At first because of the WMD. Now, that I feel lied to by Bush or at least decieved, I still thing the Iraqi's will benefit from it. They've tried to fight for their freedom and were put down "mercilessly". At that time we should have helped them and we didn't. Politics suck. Once I saw Baghdad erupt into cheer when that statue came down, I knew that it was right for other reasons. They may want us out, they may hate us in a few years, they may hate us now, but once they write up that constitution and have their own military in place, I think they will be grateful. Even if we never get to see it, they will appreciate it. Just my opinion.
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jimbo2002
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« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2003, 05:09:11 PM »

We are drifting off the original argument here. The simple truth is that we are all human and whatever we do will be dictated by human nature and weaknesses and that will never change its "the nature of the beast". But by the same token we can try to harness our strenghts as a species for some good at least. Understanding, reason, compassion, they are all their in people.  As for North Korea, its an economic basket case and will fall apart itself.
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Papiya
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« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2003, 05:09:54 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by mindmesh
Hmmm. I love these threads, although once I put in my two sense they usually get closed.

I agreed with the war in Iraq. At first because of the WMD. Now, that I feel lied to by Bush or at least decieved, I still thing the Iraqi's will benefit from it. They've tried to fight for their freedom and were put down "mercilessly". At that time we should have helped them and we didn't. Politics suck. Once I saw Baghdad erupt into cheer when that statue came down, I knew that it was right for other reasons. They may want us out, they may hate us in a few years, they may hate us now, but once they write up that constitution and have their own military in place, I think they will be grateful. Even if we never get to see it, they will appreciate it. Just my opinion.


I disagree. You cannot force democracy on someone. What you can do is force your own rule upon them and dominate them by placing your forces there and forcing them to do your bidding. As for the Iraqis cheering, do you honestly think the media would put up pictures of them suffering under American occupation? Even "free" media will support the interests of the country that funds them. And if it is really merely democracy that America wants for Iraq, why is it so blind to other places like Myanmar that need it so badly as well? Or do these other places just not matter?

I think America new all along there was no WMD threat from Iraq . . . if there was intelligence in that area, why not share it with the inspectors? Why risk a nuclear war? America attacked Iraq in part because it was *not* a threat. And North Korea is, which is precisely why America will not attack them.

You speak of democracy . . . Bush lied to you Americans. And what do you do? Say "ah, forget it, no big deal!". Is this the democracy that you want for every other country?
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