Hi guys,

Looking at adding a couple of ISDN routers to my lab setup. Just
trying to decide between 2503 and 2504. I've already got four
ethernet/serial routers.

So, other than the obvious price advantage for the 2504, is there a
benefit to having the TR stuff in a lab? Conversely, is this just dead
money and I'm actually buying doorstops that will be worth nothing
without an ethernet port?

Is there any TR still in the Cisco Certs?

What TR about in the real world?

Matt

Report this post to a moderator

I don't know your sex-life ;-) but I think there is no certification with
token ring....
regards

"Schmuck" <yamahasw40@latinmail.com> wrote in message
news:24819cc3.0301030732.3449878@posting.google.com...
> Hi guys,
>
> Looking at adding a couple of ISDN routers to my lab setup. Just
> trying to decide between 2503 and 2504. I've already got four
> ethernet/serial routers.
>
> So, other than the obvious price advantage for the 2504, is there a
> benefit to having the TR stuff in a lab? Conversely, is this just dead
> money and I'm actually buying doorstops that will be worth nothing
> without an ethernet port?
>
> Is there any TR still in the Cisco Certs?
>
> What TR about in the real world?
>
> Matt

Report this post to a moderator

If you are chasing CCNP/CCDP or any of the CCIP certs then, no, don't worry
about token ring/SRB/RSRB/DLWS etc. If, on the other hand, you are chasing
the CCIE then you definitely need to know a lot about TR for the written
exam. It has been removed from the lab exam but you still need to be aware
of TR theory stuff in order to better understand DLSW+ concepts. Any CCIE
worth his salt will know enough about TR to get by.

Even though Ethernet is BY FAR the predominant LAN technology today, there
is still a lot of TR out there. Right there should be too; it is a
marvelous protocol. Problem with it is that it is expensive, with a % of
every port sale going to IBM. It is also over engineered for the TCP/IP
suite. This is a subject that could cause much debate in networking circles
since TR has it's fraternity who swear by it.

Steve


"Schmuck" <yamahasw40@latinmail.com> wrote in message
news:24819cc3.0301030732.3449878@posting.google.com...
> Hi guys,
>
> Looking at adding a couple of ISDN routers to my lab setup. Just
> trying to decide between 2503 and 2504. I've already got four
> ethernet/serial routers.
>
> So, other than the obvious price advantage for the 2504, is there a
> benefit to having the TR stuff in a lab? Conversely, is this just dead
> money and I'm actually buying doorstops that will be worth nothing
> without an ethernet port?
>
> Is there any TR still in the Cisco Certs?
>
> What TR about in the real world?
>
> Matt

Report this post to a moderator

"Schmuck" <yamahasw40@latinmail.com> wrote in message
news:24819cc3.0301030732.3449878@posting.google.com...
> Hi guys,
>
> Looking at adding a couple of ISDN routers to my lab setup. Just
> trying to decide between 2503 and 2504. I've already got four
> ethernet/serial routers.
>
> So, other than the obvious price advantage for the 2504, is there a
> benefit to having the TR stuff in a lab?

No.

Token-Ring is dead, long live the ethernet, fast ethernet and gigabit
ethernet (and soon to be 10 gigabit ethernet...)

> Conversely, is this just dead
> money and I'm actually buying doorstops that will be worth nothing
> without an ethernet port?
>

Not at all...

I have several Token-Ring routers that I use as a frame-swtich and for ISDN
connectivity... they were nearly free (in comparison to their Enet
compadres)... A 2525 with two Serials and a BRI cost me $130... A 2521 with
4 serials was only $225...

If they had had enets on em, I would have paid two or three times as much...

> Is there any TR still in the Cisco Certs?
>

Nope.

Not even on the CCIE.

> What TR about in the real world?
>

It is being forklift upgraded to Enet anywhere it can be found...

Cisco no longer sells token-ring crap... and I think only IBM still has TR
stuff for their SNA stuff (for the airlines mostly...)...



Jonathan


> Matt

Report this post to a moderator

"Aldridge Prior" <kirkster@nospamntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Y8pR9.941$pL6.263110@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> If you are chasing CCNP/CCDP or any of the CCIP certs then, no, don't
worry
> about token ring/SRB/RSRB/DLWS etc. If, on the other hand, you are
chasing
> the CCIE then you definitely need to know a lot about TR for the written
> exam.

Not that much...

They still emphasize DLSW, but the token-ring was barely present (I don't
remember a single question on Token-Ring...)... and TR has been completely
romoved from the lab (the 3920s are gone!)...

With the loss of TR, then SRB, RSRB, TLB, etc all go with it...

But, I assure you DLSW+ is still alive and well... (mostly for netbios...)

> It has been removed from the lab exam but you still need to be aware
> of TR theory stuff in order to better understand DLSW+ concepts. Any CCIE
> worth his salt will know enough about TR to get by.
>

And, what you really need to know is that Token Ring is old, evil, and
doesn't work on its good days... forget about trying to do something cool
with it...

Also... troubleshooting is less than fun...

> Even though Ethernet is BY FAR the predominant LAN technology today, there
> is still a lot of TR out there. Right there should be too; it is a
> marvelous protocol. Problem with it is that it is expensive, with a % of
> every port sale going to IBM. It is also over engineered for the TCP/IP
> suite. This is a subject that could cause much debate in networking
circles
> since TR has it's fraternity who swear by it.
>

Who?




Jonathan

> Steve
>
>
> "Schmuck" <yamahasw40@latinmail.com> wrote in message
> news:24819cc3.0301030732.3449878@posting.google.com...
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > Looking at adding a couple of ISDN routers to my lab setup. Just
> > trying to decide between 2503 and 2504. I've already got four
> > ethernet/serial routers.
> >
> > So, other than the obvious price advantage for the 2504, is there a
> > benefit to having the TR stuff in a lab? Conversely, is this just dead
> > money and I'm actually buying doorstops that will be worth nothing
> > without an ethernet port?
> >
> > Is there any TR still in the Cisco Certs?
> >
> > What TR about in the real world?
> >
> > Matt
>
>

Report this post to a moderator

"Jonathan" <jrcdehc@nospam.nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VjrR9.2085083$H65.263176@post-02.news.easynews.com...
>
> "Schmuck" <yamahasw40@latinmail.com> wrote in message
> news:24819cc3.0301030732.3449878@posting.google.com...
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > Looking at adding a couple of ISDN routers to my lab setup. Just
> > trying to decide between 2503 and 2504. I've already got four
> > ethernet/serial routers.
> >
> > So, other than the obvious price advantage for the 2504, is there a
> > benefit to having the TR stuff in a lab?
>
> No.
>
> Token-Ring is dead, long live the ethernet, fast ethernet and gigabit
> ethernet (and soon to be 10 gigabit ethernet...)
>
> > Conversely, is this just dead
> > money and I'm actually buying doorstops that will be worth nothing
> > without an ethernet port?
> >
>
> Not at all...
>
> I have several Token-Ring routers that I use as a frame-swtich and for
ISDN
> connectivity... they were nearly free (in comparison to their Enet
> compadres)... A 2525 with two Serials and a BRI cost me $130... A 2521
with
> 4 serials was only $225...
>
> If they had had enets on em, I would have paid two or three times as
much...
>
> > Is there any TR still in the Cisco Certs?
> >
>
> Nope.
>
> Not even on the CCIE.

There is some left on the R/S written exam. Also you can still take CCIE
recert exams that have lots of SNA/TR stuff on them.

>
> > What TR about in the real world?
> >
>
> It is being forklift upgraded to Enet anywhere it can be found...
>
> Cisco no longer sells token-ring crap... and I think only IBM still has TR
> stuff for their SNA stuff (for the airlines mostly...)...

I beg to differ. Cisco still sells some TR. You can still buy things like
the 3900 TR switch, adapters like the PA-4R-DTR, and routers with built-in
TR interfaces like the 2612. Obviously TR is declining, but Cisco still
sells it.

If you allow me to expand the discussion to SNA, Cisco still has a huge
business in selling SNA solutions, especially CIP cards (as FEP
replacements), SNAsw, and the like. In fact, I consider the whole Cisco SNA
field to be one of the more promising job skills to have - for 2 reasons.

#1 - There is a tremendous amount of SNA left in the world that people want
to migrate to IP. All the banks, factories, government organizations, etc.
are giant SNA repositories. One study I read estimated that at least 75% of
the world's truly valuable data still sits in nodes that are only reachable
via SNA.

#2 - Nobody knows how to do it. Let's face it, R/S skills are saturated
beyond belief. In this job market, if you only know R/S, you don't know
much, because there are a lot of other guys who know it too who want a job.
As ISP's keep folding, more and more highly talented R/S guys will continue
to flood the job market. More to the point, R/S skills are easily
commoditized. Relatively speaking, it's not that hard to get experience on
basic IP networks. Cisco-style SNA skills are a different story. How many
people have even seen a mainframe - and let's not even talk about people who
actually have strong experience configuring one? How many people have ever
seen a CIP card?

While all of networking is badly impacted right now, I consider Cisco-SNA to
be one of the more defensible fortresses.


>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> > Matt
>
>

Report this post to a moderator

> "Jonathan" <jrcdehc@nospam.nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > Token-Ring is dead, long live the ethernet, fast ethernet and gigabit
> > ethernet (and soon to be 10 gigabit ethernet...)


No question Ethernet reigns supreme. But TR isn't entirely dead. And
it's not too bad in terms of troubleshooting since lot of the soft error
stats are carried in the tokens. You need a Sniffer to see it, but it's
not bad. "sho lnm station" is pretty handy too.


In article <nJrR9.617840$QZ.91064@sccrnsc02>, noglikirf@hotmail.com
says...

> I beg to differ. [snip]
> In fact, I consider the whole Cisco SNA
> field to be one of the more promising job skills to have - for 2 reasons.
>
> #1 - There is a tremendous amount of SNA left in the world that people want
> to migrate to IP.
[snip]
>
> #2 - Nobody knows how to do it. Let's face it, R/S skills are saturated
> beyond belief. In this job market, if you only know R/S, you don't know
> much, because there are a lot of other guys who know it too who want a job.
> As ISP's keep folding, more and more highly talented R/S guys will continue
> to flood the job market. More to the point, R/S skills are easily
> commoditized. Relatively speaking, it's not that hard to get experience on
> basic IP networks. Cisco-style SNA skills are a different story. How many
> people have even seen a mainframe - and let's not even talk about people who
> actually have strong experience configuring one? How many people have ever
> seen a CIP card?
>
> While all of networking is badly impacted right now, I consider Cisco-SNA to
> be one of the more defensible fortresses.


I'll agree 100%. Not that I'm an expert on CIP cards or anything.
(claws? you want bearclaws?!) But we have tremendous amount of TR in
the organization. And if you want to work with the Feds, TR it is
(though even that is changing)

So to sum up, TR skill is good to have. Being able to mix SNA traffic
into IP world is quite a valuable skill and highly marketable.


--

hsb

"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
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"nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nJrR9.617840$QZ.91064@sccrnsc02...
>
> "Jonathan" <jrcdehc@nospam.nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:VjrR9.2085083$H65.263176@post-02.news.easynews.com...
> >
> > "Schmuck" <yamahasw40@latinmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:24819cc3.0301030732.3449878@posting.google.com...
> > > Hi guys,
> > >
> > > Looking at adding a couple of ISDN routers to my lab setup. Just
> > > trying to decide between 2503 and 2504. I've already got four
> > > ethernet/serial routers.
> > >
> > > So, other than the obvious price advantage for the 2504, is there a
> > > benefit to having the TR stuff in a lab?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Token-Ring is dead, long live the ethernet, fast ethernet and gigabit
> > ethernet (and soon to be 10 gigabit ethernet...)
> >
> > > Conversely, is this just dead
> > > money and I'm actually buying doorstops that will be worth nothing
> > > without an ethernet port?
> > >
> >
> > Not at all...
> >
> > I have several Token-Ring routers that I use as a frame-swtich and for
> ISDN
> > connectivity... they were nearly free (in comparison to their Enet
> > compadres)... A 2525 with two Serials and a BRI cost me $130... A 2521
> with
> > 4 serials was only $225...
> >
> > If they had had enets on em, I would have paid two or three times as
> much...
> >
> > > Is there any TR still in the Cisco Certs?
> > >
> >
> > Nope.
> >
> > Not even on the CCIE.
>
> There is some left on the R/S written exam. Also you can still take CCIE
> recert exams that have lots of SNA/TR stuff on them.
>

I really don't remember more than 1 or 2 questions about TR...

> >
> > > What TR about in the real world?
> > >
> >
> > It is being forklift upgraded to Enet anywhere it can be found...
> >
> > Cisco no longer sells token-ring crap... and I think only IBM still has
TR
> > stuff for their SNA stuff (for the airlines mostly...)...
>
> I beg to differ. Cisco still sells some TR. You can still buy things
like
> the 3900 TR switch,

Not according the Quick Reference Guide dated February 2002...

Cisco probably still provides support to the ones that are out there, but
they aren't making them anymore...

> adapters like the PA-4R-DTR, and routers with built-in
> TR interfaces like the 2612. Obviously TR is declining, but Cisco still
> sells it.
>

QRG again: The 2509 and 2511 are still sold (none with TR...), they do still
sell the 2612/13 with TR... the 3600 is TR free, the 7200 has a TR port...
et al...

It seems TR is definitely on the way out... but still has some adherents...

> If you allow me to expand the discussion to SNA, Cisco still has a huge
> business in selling SNA solutions, especially CIP cards (as FEP
> replacements), SNAsw, and the like. In fact, I consider the whole Cisco
SNA
> field to be one of the more promising job skills to have - for 2 reasons.
>
> #1 - There is a tremendous amount of SNA left in the world that people
want
> to migrate to IP. All the banks, factories, government organizations,
etc.
> are giant SNA repositories. One study I read estimated that at least 75%
of
> the world's truly valuable data still sits in nodes that are only
reachable
> via SNA.
>
> #2 - Nobody knows how to do it. Let's face it, R/S skills are saturated
> beyond belief. In this job market, if you only know R/S, you don't know
> much, because there are a lot of other guys who know it too who want a
job.
> As ISP's keep folding, more and more highly talented R/S guys will
continue
> to flood the job market. More to the point, R/S skills are easily
> commoditized. Relatively speaking, it's not that hard to get experience
on
> basic IP networks. Cisco-style SNA skills are a different story. How
many
> people have even seen a mainframe - and let's not even talk about people
who
> actually have strong experience configuring one? How many people have
ever
> seen a CIP card?
>
> While all of networking is badly impacted right now, I consider Cisco-SNA
to
> be one of the more defensible fortresses.
>

And I would agree... However, a lot of that SNA traffic is being migrated to
Ethernet IP... such is the need for DLSW et al...



Jonathan


>
> >
> >
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> > > Matt
> >
> >
>
>

Report this post to a moderator

"Jonathan" <jrcdehc@nospam.nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xfwR9.2097537$H65.265352@post-02.news.easynews.com...
>
> "nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nJrR9.617840$QZ.91064@sccrnsc02...
> >
> > "Jonathan" <jrcdehc@nospam.nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:VjrR9.2085083$H65.263176@post-02.news.easynews.com...
> > >
> > > "Schmuck" <yamahasw40@latinmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:24819cc3.0301030732.3449878@posting.google.com...
> > > > Hi guys,
> > > >
> > > > Looking at adding a couple of ISDN routers to my lab setup. Just
> > > > trying to decide between 2503 and 2504. I've already got four
> > > > ethernet/serial routers.
> > > >
> > > > So, other than the obvious price advantage for the 2504, is there a
> > > > benefit to having the TR stuff in a lab?
> > >
> > > No.
> > >
> > > Token-Ring is dead, long live the ethernet, fast ethernet and gigabit
> > > ethernet (and soon to be 10 gigabit ethernet...)
> > >
> > > > Conversely, is this just dead
> > > > money and I'm actually buying doorstops that will be worth nothing
> > > > without an ethernet port?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Not at all...
> > >
> > > I have several Token-Ring routers that I use as a frame-swtich and for
> > ISDN
> > > connectivity... they were nearly free (in comparison to their Enet
> > > compadres)... A 2525 with two Serials and a BRI cost me $130... A 2521
> > with
> > > 4 serials was only $225...
> > >
> > > If they had had enets on em, I would have paid two or three times as
> > much...
> > >
> > > > Is there any TR still in the Cisco Certs?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Nope.
> > >
> > > Not even on the CCIE.
> >
> > There is some left on the R/S written exam. Also you can still take
CCIE
> > recert exams that have lots of SNA/TR stuff on them.
> >
>
> I really don't remember more than 1 or 2 questions about TR...
>
> > >
> > > > What TR about in the real world?
> > > >
> > >
> > > It is being forklift upgraded to Enet anywhere it can be found...
> > >
> > > Cisco no longer sells token-ring crap... and I think only IBM still
has
> TR

> > > stuff for their SNA stuff (for the airlines mostly...)...
> >
> > I beg to differ. Cisco still sells some TR. You can still buy things
> like
> > the 3900 TR switch,
>
> Not according the Quick Reference Guide dated February 2002...

The QRG is completely wrong. Don't feel bad - the QRG has been known to be
wrong quite a few times.

If that doesn't satisfy you, I'm affiliated with a Cisco reseller, and I can
get you a quote for new Cisco TR gear in less than a week. Heck, why don't
you call up a reseller and ask for some quotes for TR gear. Betcha a
fridge-full-of-beer they'll turn around with something.

According to my figures, a new Cat 3920 costs about 6 grand list. Granted,
the lead time is 45 business days, so it'll take awhile - but you still can
get it.


>
> Cisco probably still provides support to the ones that are out there, but
> they aren't making them anymore...

Uh, see above.

>
> > adapters like the PA-4R-DTR, and routers with built-in
> > TR interfaces like the 2612. Obviously TR is declining, but Cisco still
> > sells it.
> >
>
> QRG again: The 2509 and 2511 are still sold (none with TR...), they do
still
> sell the 2612/13 with TR... the 3600 is TR free, the 7200 has a TR port...
> et al...

Get yourself a quote for part number: NM-1E1R2W (one ethernet, one TR, 2
WIC slots), a NM that is compatible with the 3600.

The Dynamic Ordering Tool (my CCO login has reseller-privileges, whoo whoo)
shows it costs $3000 list.




>
> It seems TR is definitely on the way out... but still has some
adherents...
>
> > If you allow me to expand the discussion to SNA, Cisco still has a huge
> > business in selling SNA solutions, especially CIP cards (as FEP
> > replacements), SNAsw, and the like. In fact, I consider the whole Cisco
> SNA
> > field to be one of the more promising job skills to have - for 2
reasons.
> >
> > #1 - There is a tremendous amount of SNA left in the world that people
> want
> > to migrate to IP. All the banks, factories, government organizations,
> etc.
> > are giant SNA repositories. One study I read estimated that at least
75%
> of
> > the world's truly valuable data still sits in nodes that are only
> reachable
> > via SNA.
> >
> > #2 - Nobody knows how to do it. Let's face it, R/S skills are saturated
> > beyond belief. In this job market, if you only know R/S, you don't know
> > much, because there are a lot of other guys who know it too who want a
> job.
> > As ISP's keep folding, more and more highly talented R/S guys will
> continue
> > to flood the job market. More to the point, R/S skills are easily
> > commoditized. Relatively speaking, it's not that hard to get experience
> on
> > basic IP networks. Cisco-style SNA skills are a different story. How
> many
> > people have even seen a mainframe - and let's not even talk about people
> who
> > actually have strong experience configuring one? How many people have
> ever
> > seen a CIP card?
> >
> > While all of networking is badly impacted right now, I consider
Cisco-SNA
> to
> > be one of the more defensible fortresses.
> >
>
> And I would agree... However, a lot of that SNA traffic is being migrated
to
> Ethernet IP... such is the need for DLSW et al...


Uh, big secret - Dlsw+ is actually dying. Even Cisco has admitted as much.
They are replacing it with SNASw - Cisco's new SNA strategic direction. Why
Dlsw+ continues to be on the CCIE-lab test is a mystery.

>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > >
> > > > Matt
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Report this post to a moderator

Hell, forget about going to a reseller. Consider this - here's the link for
the online QRG for 9/02 (more recent than yours).

http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/75...uide-html.shtml

Now lookie at what I find in the LAN-switching section, under the header of
"Additional LAN-switching products". Hmmm, what's this over here?

http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/75...ing.shtml#91054

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