Just wondering why people are so hung up on people who pass tests without "real world" experience.
It's become prevalent that in order to get a job in IT, you have to be certified. Everyone wants a Mercedes on a Yugo budget. This means that people have found ways to get certified because it's how to get a job. This is a microeconomics prerequisite concept (supply & demand). I would argue that any person who passes a certification exam has experience. Many people use many different venues. Most people don't, however, just go take a test without preparation, but still call others "Paper Certs".
I am a Paper Cert. I have a lot of experience in a lot of different environments. It comes from consulting for 5+ years. I wouldn't sell my Oracle skills, however, at a premium dollar, because I haven't worked with it for going on a year. The last year has been a networking focus, and then starting in Jan, I started getting WebDev contracts (basing them in Access and SQL). I know a sales guy (prominent) who spends his weekends digesting new languages (last I heard, I had pretty much mastered XML from 2 days study). People can argue, but he gets the job done. That's what matters.

Please let me know if you think being paper certed means that you don't know your trade. Where I come from, it's not what you know, it's whether your able to get the information when you need it.

Cheers!

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Psydefx
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Time change and so do the way how people deal on business..

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I am kind of going through the same thing. I think that a cert is not a "real cert" unless you actually have the knowlegde to do what your cert implies. An A+ certitfied technicain who can't switch out a bad NIC is a ridiculous thing, but I have seen them. But at the same time, if you try applying for a job without an MCSE at least, you might not even get an interview. And this holds true whether the job's duties actually REQUIRE the amount of knowlegde that the MCSE cert implies. I still think that a "paper cert" is not as good as a "real world cert", but it seems that lots of us do not have a lot of choice in the matter if we want to work.

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All certs are paper certs. I choose to obtain them because I don't have a paper college degree. I feel that studying for paper certs enhances my ability to "throw down" on a given system more than studying to complete a college degree would. Isn't that what it's about? In the end if you can "get down" any paper is secondary to that, but why not collect some papers on the way....

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Well wether you you have a PAPER cert or a PAPER college degree. Either was it's paper. You want one I can get you one from Office Depot for 2.95. What really counts is can you back the paper up with "yes I can do that and then sit down and actually do it. In VMS Kid's statment an A+ certified person that could not change out a NIC, by the way there is no such thing as a NIC Card, it's just a Network Interface Card, but the point being that yes a lot of us have seen them and then again a lot of us have seen people without cert one that could network rings around us. Either way I will quit my ranting now but the moral of the story is don't go just on am I a Paper ??? or not. Go on am I a Paper ??? and can I actually do the work that paper says I can do. Best of luck to all in the forum. Have a wonderful day.

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my boss and technical director of the company has NO certs at all for any area of IT. He relies completly on his experiance and history, which has taken him a long distance and given him a Very nice salary

He doesn't think much of certs, nor do I, but I'm starting my career in a different time then when he started (early 90's)... I cant see any way of getting a reasonably payed job these days without getting certified in something...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Psydefx
I would argue that any person who passes a certification exam has experience.

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I don't know if I can completely agree with that general statement. What kind of "experience" are you stating said person would have?

If a person studies with good test preparation resources (whether that be test software, study guides, books, and even dumps) that are soley geared towards passing the exams. A person could pass the MS cert exams and their only "hands-on" computer experience is clicking the "next" button during their test. Right or wrong, that is my general definition of a "paper cert". In my mind, this person, out of the gate, would probably have some difficulty contributing to an IT Department at the level a premier-type MCSE cert implies. For lack of a better phrase - Being able to talk the talk and walk the walk. I am not saying that with time this person would not be able to contribute to the overall success of the department, but it would take some time and on the job experience.(there's that experience word again )

It's a shame that the industry has changed to where you need a premier-type cert to have a decent chance at landing a job. There was a time when that was not the case, and it bothers me that the industry places so much preceived "value" on having one.

My take is that if I am given a problem to solve, I can not guarantee that I have the answer at the time it is given to me, but I have the ability to understand what the problem is, research out, gather information, and understand how to efficiently and confidently implement the solution without negatively impacting the exisitng business environment. I don't know how you can get to that comfort/confidence level without some-type of hands-on experience.

quote:

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I am a Paper Cert. I have a lot of experience in a lot of different environments. It comes from consulting for 5+ years.

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I wouldn't consider you a "paper cert".


Maybe if MS would begin implementing a testing structure similar to Cisco, where there are lab examinations as well as a written examinations, we wouldn't be having the age-old "paper cert" discussions. I don't believe anyone ever classifies a CCIE as being a "paper cert". Just my opinion.

quote:

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I know a sales guy (prominent) who spends his weekends digesting new languages (last I heard, I had pretty much mastered XML from 2 days study). People can argue, but he gets the job done. That's what matters.

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I completely agree with that. It's great seeing people take initiative, those are intangible qualities that I always take highly into consideration when interviewing people. Remember, the only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary.

Just my opinions, feel free to disagree or agree, seeing that they are just my views, there really is no right or wrong answer.

Take Care.

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I've taken the 2K exams, don't you have to have SOME idea of what goes on to pass? Or is your contention that these exams could be passed by wrote memorization? (Even if you're talking about the 1-in-a-million photographic memory, wouldn't they still have "photos" after they were done?)

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I knew I shouldn't have taken the bait. Oh well, live and learn

Psydefx, As I said before, these are my opinions. I will not be loosing any sleep as to whether you agree or disagree with them.

And to answer your original question, I am not hung up on people who pass tests without "real-world" experience. I think it's great that they are striving to accomplish a goal they've set for themselves. But if you have no "real-world" experience to go with your MCSE, don't be disappointed when you get offered the $28k a year helpdesk support job. You won't be having unsupervised access to my servers anytime soon.

quote:

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I've taken the 2K exams, don't you have to have SOME idea of what goes on to pass?

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Sorry for seeming to lure you into a debate, didn't want to do that TO YOU. You seem to have a solid arguement structure that has very defined parameters. You also seem to be established in the industry, your knowledge base, and your experience.
The purpose of the post is to try and make people think before they react to a person on this board passing an exam when they have no "real world" experience. People who put forth effort and cash to attain a certification should be complimented. I know a few people who have a solid background with networking, and know every aspect of Win2K but haven't gotten hold of AD when there are advanced implications (such as moving from your described environment). I also know a few whose job required that they upgrade from 4.0 to 2K. These people (according to the posts I've read) would be considered paper certs. Without real lines drawn, which are only valid if you have accomplished the given cert yourself FIRST, (in my opinion), who determines what is a paper cert, and what is not?
The real thing is that people should not be chastised for accomplishing something. If they take the easy road in the beginning, the road to success will be harder. If they perform due dilligence, the end game is easier. Either way, it's still the same accomplishment. Certification.
I would like to see some of the people's opinions on the contracts that I close, I wonder if they would be considered "paper contracts" because I don't have the exact skill set required? (BTW - I usually find a contractor that I have worked with or know of that does have the required skill set, and then learn while they implement.)
This is what I consider the "real world". When I got a contract to hook up several locations and the connectivity was ISDN, but I had never connected multiple BRIs before, I didn't turn it down, I simply learned and then implimented. This is why I contend that the cert itself is an accomplishment, and I don't feel that anyone should be chastised for the accomplishment. The truth of the matter is that the knowledge it takes to pass a certification is not what it takes to get the job done. It is simply a general overview. Another truth is that most people with certifications don't use the knowledge on a daily basis all the time which means that time on task diminishes, and therefore their effectiveness is lessened. All of this together makes the concept of a "Paper Cert" either a great deal more prevalent, or not valid at all.
Just my opinion.

Cheers!

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Psydefx
Luck:
Laboring Under Correct Knowledge
-Robert T. Kiyosaki

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