I've been out of HS for a year now just working on certifications but I'm considering going to `college at nights to get a comp sci degree.

How valuable do you think a `degree is as far as starting pay and getting jobs and raises compared to certification.

After I finish getting the certs listed in my profile what do you think I should do (money spent not being a factor), continue on to higher level certs or take a break from them and get a comp sci degree?

TIA

__________________
Networking is life

Last edited by DSComputers on 06-26-03 at 10:18 PM

Report this post to a moderator

certs are useless, none of those that you listed have any practical value on its own.

I will gladly take a CS major with some intern experience anyday over anyone who has speak more with cert than experience. If your experience eclipse your cert, then you should get a bachelor anyway because you should think forward to the day you pass over the technicals and are charged with more responsibilities.

also, CS degree, go to a legit college... ie... not phoenix, not herald? heard? and not devry... a 4 year accredited univ has actual legitimacy... even cal state chico would be more impressive... those others are basically vocational school... if I were to hire a programmer, I would hire from a real school.

Report this post to a moderator

not to agree with mikop, on my interview my employer was well aware of what school I attended to get my B.S. I am currently attending the same school for my MBA. I work in I.T. and although impressed with my exp and certs, my degree from Phoenix a lot to do with my salary and my claim as a potential manager. Granted, someone could have been hired at a cheaper rate.......... but? Attend the college that best suits your schedule.

How many graduates do you know that attended Major universities but couldn't solve a problem if you told them how. It is not the school but the will of the student. I will nit go into how many C.S. majors from large universities that are less than desirable.
In the interview, the technical lead will pick up on this from the start.

Report this post to a moderator

not to argue the point, as some ppl even on this board I know has done very well for themselves by going to devry.

the issue I have is not only the quality of instruction by the depth... on a support engineer role, this is basically like car mechanics, as network engineers, our task is not in creation, but maintainance... much like car mechanics. These tasks are well suited for a vocational school, targetted focus.

Now, I also think these arguments are valid

1. ppl who goes thruogh the standard 4 years uni out of high school are generally not motivated... they went on to these schools because their parents expected it and it is the natural progression out of high school where as ppl who goes to devry, uni phoenix etc are driven... they actively seek to better themselves, acquire knowledge etc.

2. In a sense of becoming functional in a IT career, art appreciation and other general ed are quite useless... music appreciation? art history? what's the point? However, there is also critical thinking, public speaking, interpersonal speech (group) etc mix in the GE curriculum... I am not able to verify the curriculum for phoneix nor heald (1. I didn't wanna fill out the form even with fake data, 2. they are being quite shy wiht displaying hte courses needed at heald... and I did not spend the time to dig into it.)

anyway. I do agree that my blanket statement was not entirely valid and it is true that you take away what you put in, no matter the setting... but I still believe it to be true is most cases, that IT specific degree, even from a legit 4 years uni (rememer those? during hte boom, every uni was coming out with some IT bachelor which has largely been scrap for hte traditional CS)...

Also, since I did not peek at the curriculum for these schools, let me draw some observation I have in general... if you are talking about packet structure and data comm, most CS deals way deeper that what is cover in the CCNP level and this depth I think would be safe to assume is deeper that those covered in these schools.

but generalization, I would agree with you, I am a bit haste in knocking these schools.

edit: oh my, my grammar and spelling!... heh I am shaming 4 years uni and support your argument right here

Report this post to a moderator

Mikop please tell me you didn't goto a 4 year university Your engrish is horrid


Ok I want to say some things on this subject, because I am in this situation right now. This subject has been discussed over and over to my professors/HR staff/Work placement specialists.


I obviously can't speak for programmers etc but in the networking field / security I am going the route of a technicial orientated school.

To my knowledge a degree is the steping stone in learning. However, four year degrees at major university's (EE,CIS,CS) do NOT prepare you for the real world. You must either learn during your time at college, or after you get out. It's that easy.

I really think that online classes are a joke. Anyone that has done online classes really hasn't learned to the POTENTIAL of the material presented in the class. I took 2 online classes here at my community college and passed without reading the book.


Technicial colleges are the key IMHO. They teach you :

Management
Finances(accounting/corp accounting)
Business Law
Math(stats)
Business Writing
Oral Communications

and most importantly CCNP/MCSE/CNE courses.

I agree that the MCSE and CNE are weak and I am on the CCNP route.

With hard work you can achieve work experience, certifications, and your bachelors degree at the same time.

Report this post to a moderator

quote:

---

Originally posted by bloodshotx
Mikop please tell me you didn't goto a 4 year university Your engrish is horrid

---

Unfortunately, that is true... After I actually read what I wrote, I was contemplating whether I should just editing the whole thing and replace it with NT, or a comment about how badly written it was etc... but I figured, heh, I wrote it and I really don't care to hide it.

I think one of the things you guys have not accurately address is that both of you seem to comes from a perspective of experienced individual (work, military and what not). The original poster, however, is 19? and I think being at that age makes going to a 4 years univ a lot more sense.

These *trade* schools are tailored... their ads etc stress the fact that they can get you to where you want to go faster and efficiently by providing online and also night courses. This is very important to working professionals and from your perspective, it makes sense. However, this is what I liken it to... During the boom, a lot of ppl based on radio ads and market condition want to achieve a quick entry into the job market... where else to do that but to get *certifications*... and what do we have now... virtually useless certification. Oh sure, it is still useful to get an interview, but anyone who has achieve these certification *barring a few* knows very well how lack of depth and coverage these certifications are... and yes, even CCNP exams are imo a joke... with nothing else to back up the validity, they are as useful as the next dumped paper.

Granted, Nobel Prize professor never actually lecture but has their Assistant do the mudane classwork, but there is absolutely no question in regard to the quality of the education. I am making some assumption here, but I doubt that their staff are any more qualify then the next joe who happen to hold the title of *network engineer* or *system admin*... I suppose that some do value that their instructors are from a working background rather than academia, but imo that very notion is laughable... to think that on paper we may be well over qualify to teach the next generation of network engineers... scary thoughts...

I would also like to comment... that imo, IT field has seen a steady decline in the quality of the staff... I am going old school here... Who was the system admin and network engineers a few years back? CS major who want to focus on the more hands on aspect of computing rather than those who are more interested in research and creation... These are the admins who can actually write a script, understand the fundamental of computing... who understand networking... the day of hacking being an art and not of script kiddies... What do we have here now? tons of *system admin* who has no idea about scripts let alone come out with them just to make their own life easier... How many system admin you know actually knows computing, or networking... Let us be brutally honest here... look around... The state of IT is alarming not because of the economy, but because those who represent it are utterly unqualify. What we have now is more ammunition/resources on doing our job better, but most of us do not utilize it... We simply pay it lip service... We all claim that while we do not know everything, we have the capacity to find those information... how many ppl you see on this forum lack the ability, or the desire to even go to google and look it up... lip service...

Anyway, maybe I am just too traditionalist here... but I think all these accelerated schedule contribute to the general decline.(and believe me, this is not a knock on anyone personally and I fully recognize that there are those who has gone that route who are more qualify that I and many ppl who has gone the traditional route)

Devicchio, I certainly know quite a few ppl who graduated from univ who lack any qualification to work in any capacity... and these are from the big schools here... (only 2 choices here in the bay area ) However, I also know many of them who work as researcher in Lawrence Livermore Lab, engineers in companies such as Altera, Oracle, and CheckPoint... In fact, a good friend of mine is a software engineer in the routing group at cisco... and while I have not taken a poll, but I would venture to claim that all of us would recommend such a young person to take their time in acquiring all the knowledge and not be rushed into the race to achieve their career goals but rather invest in building a solid foundation to build their entier career and life.

Last edited by mikop on 06-28-03 at 12:38 AM

Report this post to a moderator

i am only 22......

Report this post to a moderator

Thanks for all the replies.

I had pretty much already decided to go for a CS `degree before posting here but I think now I may go sooner than I had originally planned.

I'm not sure if all schools are the same but the main 4yr university around here has classes from early in the morning to about 10 at night. So when I said I wanted to go at night, I didn't mean to an online or 2 year school. Only reason I'm going to go at night is I plan to be working 8-5+ mon-fri in the field.

I am 19, have about 2 1/2 years lvl 2 hardware/networking experience on my resume. Originally it seemed like a good idea to skip going to `college and just get certs and increase my experience but the more I learn about the market and computers the more I realize I need a real `degree. Not only that, but I think knowing how to program would be very worthwhile, even if my main job is networking on some level or another.

I think the main thing that got me interested actually was my friend who is a CS major (1yr left) telling me all the details about his networking classes. The depth of his understanding in the tcp/ip stack, OSI model, etc...is just amazing.

Anyway, thanks again for all the thoughtful replies!

__________________
Networking is life

Report this post to a moderator

Mikop, sounds like you are saying that ONLY people who are going to college for a degree are motivated and driven to better themselves. So does that mean those of us who are continually studying, learning, testing, etc, are trying to better themselves? I just turned 23 yesterday and feel that I have acheived a lot. Not all of us could have their parents pay to go to school and do nothing else for 4 years, I worked my way into the field and haven't stopped learning and "bettering myself" since. My girlfriend graduated last year with a CS degree along with 2 dozen others. You can find some of them working at Home Depot, Staples, or even Wal-Mart.

Now for the rest of the information, this artilce from Certmag.com was excellent on this topic...

http://www.certmag.com/articles/templates/cmag_feature.asp?articleid=287&zoneid=1

Report this post to a moderator

if you read what I wrote, I actually argue that a case can be made that those who goes to a 4 years uni often lack the motivation and are doing it because that is the *accepted* path.

and I don't read anything from a cert magazine... there are a lot more magazine that has a lot more credibility beside one that's targetted on this silly cert industry BS...

edit:

Let me comment a bit more about this... I recognize how futile it is for me to come to a certification site and bash the usefulness of certification, but some things needs to be said. Let's be real here... look around this site.. it is hard to believe that most ppl who hangs out here are the cream of the crop... The driven professional that the cert industry would like us to believe that we are... They want us to believe that the reason to believe that those who pursue certification are a step above the rest of the industry when in actuality, it is in most cases those who are borderlined that seek certification to look for an edge or one of those caught in the craze a few years ago and now just wish to cheat and lie their way to a job and see certification as the most unregulated, easiest way to gain entry.

Who reads cert magazine? who comes to cert boards? in most cases, these are the ppl who wants to believe, really want any info or anything to validify their choices... someone to say, hey man, you made the right choice. Every time I read some article about certification is has almost always focused on the up side... basically what I consider a positive self reflection so the reader can read it and feel about about it, himself, and the choices he made.

given the same drive to succeed and learn, university continues to be the best environment. Your GF's circumstances is unfortunate, however, it is far from any supporting evidence of degree's futility but a reflection of the job market. Given a freshly minted ccie and a total lab rat wiht no experience, she would not find a job befitting a properly qualified ccie either except for those who wish to use it to satissfy cisco's partnership requirement (which would still be quite a few even in this market).

Last edited by mikop on 06-29-03 at 04:23 AM

Report this post to a moderator