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Home > Archive > alt.certification.mcse > August 2003 > Challenge The Market Value Of The MCSE
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Challenge The Market Value Of The MCSE
|
|
| Wilson 2003-07-31, 4:25 pm |
| Rather than listen to what I and others think, how about the newbies who are
getting into IT find themselves a position for which they qualify?
I went to www.monster.com and searched for MCSE and got 20 pages of
positions.
I could not find one that was MCSE only. If you can, please reply with a
link to it.
| |
| Ripper 2003-07-31, 5:25 pm |
| My dear Wilson -
May it please the court , but I think that your recent caveats about the
bleak IT job market may be somewhat overstated. If we use the example you
just gave pertaining to the online job search for MCSE openings, you might
have the same results with any single degree / credential / certification.
Accounting ,engineering, human resources , or whatever - any job description
is going to have the inevitable string of related skills attached - things
the employer would like to have, but probably won't get all in one
individual employee. You do make an excellent point, though - it seems that
every job description nowadays in the computer / IT field seems to mention
certs as more of an afterthought than as a principal requirement ( and I
mean all certs, baby - Cisco, MCSE, CompTIA, the works...). This is why I'm
still a believer in 4yr degrees, with certifications as an add-on, or rather
a ratification of skills that might make you immediately useful to a
prospective employer.
Your thoughts ??
"Wilson" <wilson@noemailforme.org> wrote in message
news:speWa.1439$rJ4.1245@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
> Rather than listen to what I and others think, how about the newbies who
are
> getting into IT find themselves a position for which they qualify?
>
> I went to www.monster.com and searched for MCSE and got 20 pages of
> positions.
>
> I could not find one that was MCSE only. If you can, please reply with a
> link to it.
>
>
>
>
| |
| The Oracle 2003-07-31, 5:25 pm |
| I agree with you completely Ripper. Absolutley. I therefore cannot quire
understand why you flamed me personally a few threads back. I think the
world went mad about these certs and everyone thought that they had to get
them by any means possible. It made experienced MCSE engineers (you know
who you are and I salute you) the equivalent of brain dump cheats in the
eyes of the HR recruitment department. How can THAT be a good thing?
All of a sudden, incredibly experienced engineers and consultants were seen
as expendable since "there are plenty of other MCSE's to take your place".
Such is the narrow mindedness of some HR people who know no difference.
I agree that I might have come across as a bit rude in trying to make this
point on both this and some other newsgroups. I'll calm it down a little.
However, the point most definitely remains.
Steve
"Ripper" <jconley1509@charter.net> wrote in message
news:viiv61oo1aio84@corp.supernews.com...
> My dear Wilson -
>
> May it please the court , but I think that your recent caveats about the
> bleak IT job market may be somewhat overstated. If we use the example you
> just gave pertaining to the online job search for MCSE openings, you might
> have the same results with any single degree / credential / certification.
> Accounting ,engineering, human resources , or whatever - any job
description
> is going to have the inevitable string of related skills attached - things
> the employer would like to have, but probably won't get all in one
> individual employee. You do make an excellent point, though - it seems
that
> every job description nowadays in the computer / IT field seems to mention
> certs as more of an afterthought than as a principal requirement ( and I
> mean all certs, baby - Cisco, MCSE, CompTIA, the works...). This is why
I'm
> still a believer in 4yr degrees, with certifications as an add-on, or
rather
> a ratification of skills that might make you immediately useful to a
> prospective employer.
>
> Your thoughts ??
>
> "Wilson" <wilson@noemailforme.org> wrote in message
> news:speWa.1439$rJ4.1245@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > Rather than listen to what I and others think, how about the newbies who
> are
> > getting into IT find themselves a position for which they qualify?
> >
> > I went to www.monster.com and searched for MCSE and got 20 pages of
> > positions.
> >
> > I could not find one that was MCSE only. If you can, please reply with a
> > link to it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
| |
| Wilson 2003-07-31, 5:25 pm |
| It was not that way three years ago. Used to be you got your MCSE or Notes
certs and the employers rolled out the carpet for you and paid big
bucks.Hey, I made good money in those days.
I am not against the MCSE or other certs. They are not easy to get and show
that someone is dedicated to learn a product. It took me four months to get
my NT 4.0 MCSE. It helped when I got it but means nothing at this time. No
jobs.
I am against newbies thinking they can get a cert and get a good job. With
all the unemployed techs out there the employers can make all kinds of
demands and get people that fit what they want for less money.
So if you're in a tech school see if you can get a refund. It is not going
to get better. It is only going to get worse as the more jobs that go to
India means more people you will compete with for a lower paying job.
So anytime you find a job on Monster than a newbie has a shot at, please
post it.
(sounds of crickets softly chirping)
"Ripper" <jconley1509@charter.net> wrote in message
news:viiv61oo1aio84@corp.supernews.com...
> My dear Wilson -
>
> May it please the court , but I think that your recent caveats about the
> bleak IT job market may be somewhat overstated. If we use the example you
> just gave pertaining to the online job search for MCSE openings, you might
> have the same results with any single degree / credential / certification.
> Accounting ,engineering, human resources , or whatever - any job
description
> is going to have the inevitable string of related skills attached - things
> the employer would like to have, but probably won't get all in one
> individual employee. You do make an excellent point, though - it seems
that
> every job description nowadays in the computer / IT field seems to mention
> certs as more of an afterthought than as a principal requirement ( and I
> mean all certs, baby - Cisco, MCSE, CompTIA, the works...). This is why
I'm
> still a believer in 4yr degrees, with certifications as an add-on, or
rather
> a ratification of skills that might make you immediately useful to a
> prospective employer.
>
> Your thoughts ??
>
> "Wilson" <wilson@noemailforme.org> wrote in message
> news:speWa.1439$rJ4.1245@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > Rather than listen to what I and others think, how about the newbies who
> are
> > getting into IT find themselves a position for which they qualify?
> >
> > I went to www.monster.com and searched for MCSE and got 20 pages of
> > positions.
> >
> > I could not find one that was MCSE only. If you can, please reply with a
> > link to it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
| |
|
|
"Wilson" <wilson@noemailforme.org> wrote in message
news:8ufWa.8698$f%2.6417@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...
> It was not that way three years ago. Used to be you got your MCSE or Notes
> certs and the employers rolled out the carpet for you and paid big
> bucks.Hey, I made good money in those days.
>
> I am not against the MCSE or other certs. They are not easy to get and
show
> that someone is dedicated to learn a product. It took me four months to
get
> my NT 4.0 MCSE. It helped when I got it but means nothing at this time. No
> jobs.
>
> I am against newbies thinking they can get a cert and get a good job. With
> all the unemployed techs out there the employers can make all kinds of
> demands and get people that fit what they want for less money.
>
> So if you're in a tech school see if you can get a refund. It is not going
> to get better. It is only going to get worse as the more jobs that go to
> India means more people you will compete with for a lower paying job.
>
> So anytime you find a job on Monster than a newbie has a shot at, please
> post it.
>
> (sounds of crickets softly chirping)
>
>
>
>
> "Ripper" <jconley1509@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:viiv61oo1aio84@corp.supernews.com...
> > My dear Wilson -
> >
> > May it please the court , but I think that your recent caveats about the
> > bleak IT job market may be somewhat overstated. If we use the example
you
> > just gave pertaining to the online job search for MCSE openings, you
might
> > have the same results with any single degree / credential /
certification.
> > Accounting ,engineering, human resources , or whatever - any job
> description
> > is going to have the inevitable string of related skills attached -
things
> > the employer would like to have, but probably won't get all in one
> > individual employee. You do make an excellent point, though - it seems
> that
> > every job description nowadays in the computer / IT field seems to
mention
> > certs as more of an afterthought than as a principal requirement ( and I
> > mean all certs, baby - Cisco, MCSE, CompTIA, the works...). This is why
> I'm
> > still a believer in 4yr degrees, with certifications as an add-on, or
> rather
> > a ratification of skills that might make you immediately useful to a
> > prospective employer.
> >
> > Your thoughts ??
> >
> > "Wilson" <wilson@noemailforme.org> wrote in message
> > news:speWa.1439$rJ4.1245@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > > Rather than listen to what I and others think, how about the newbies
who
> > are
> > > getting into IT find themselves a position for which they qualify?
> > >
> > > I went to www.monster.com and searched for MCSE and got 20 pages of
> > > positions.
> > >
> > > I could not find one that was MCSE only. If you can, please reply with
a[col
or=darkred]
> > > link to it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>[/color]
Here's an interesting perspective on Monster:
http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/new.../OE20030617.htm
| |
|
| I have always looked at the certification as a suppliment to the
networking skills I have developed over the past 7 years. I continue to
study and take the exams because it forces me to learn all the nitty
gritty details about the technology that I probably would not use in my
everyday job. ITs just to keep me sharp and basically keep me busy.
Never did I think the certs alone would secure me a job in the IT
market. As for all the negative remarks regarding the job market. I
recently started getting 2-3 calls a week from search firms looking for
people to do Windows 2000 Administration, Active Directory, Exchange,
and other various networking jobs. So from my perspective, the market
is starting to come around. Im from CT so this is in the TRI-STATE area
like NYC, NJ, and CT.
And personally I wonder where all that IT demand went. I think the work
is still out there and once the economy gets better and managers start
opening up those IT budgets, we will all see more positions opening up
and projects moving forward for all you contract workers out there.
There is nothing wrong with these certs if your expectations are
resonable, and your patient. Keep up the good work Newbies, it will pay
off - I Promise.
Wilson wrote:
> It was not that way three years ago. Used to be you got your MCSE or Notes
> certs and the employers rolled out the carpet for you and paid big
> bucks.Hey, I made good money in those days.
>
> I am not against the MCSE or other certs. They are not easy to get and show
> that someone is dedicated to learn a product. It took me four months to get
> my NT 4.0 MCSE. It helped when I got it but means nothing at this time. No
> jobs.
>
> I am against newbies thinking they can get a cert and get a good job. With
> all the unemployed techs out there the employers can make all kinds of
> demands and get people that fit what they want for less money.
>
> So if you're in a tech school see if you can get a refund. It is not going
> to get better. It is only going to get worse as the more jobs that go to
> India means more people you will compete with for a lower paying job.
>
> So anytime you find a job on Monster than a newbie has a shot at, please
> post it.
>
> (sounds of crickets softly chirping)
>
>
>
>
> "Ripper" <jconley1509@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:viiv61oo1aio84@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>My dear Wilson -
>>
>>May it please the court , but I think that your recent caveats about the
>>bleak IT job market may be somewhat overstated. If we use the example you
>>just gave pertaining to the online job search for MCSE openings, you might
>>have the same results with any single degree / credential / certification.
>>Accounting ,engineering, human resources , or whatever - any job
>
> description
>
>>is going to have the inevitable string of related skills attached - things
>>the employer would like to have, but probably won't get all in one
>>individual employee. You do make an excellent point, though - it seems
>
> that
>
>>every job description nowadays in the computer / IT field seems to mention
>>certs as more of an afterthought than as a principal requirement ( and I
>>mean all certs, baby - Cisco, MCSE, CompTIA, the works...). This is why
>
> I'm
>
>>still a believer in 4yr degrees, with certifications as an add-on, or
>
> rather
>
>>a ratification of skills that might make you immediately useful to a
>>prospective employer.
>>
>>Your thoughts ??
>>
>>"Wilson" <wilson@noemailforme.org> wrote in message
>>news:speWa.1439$rJ4.1245@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
>>
>>>Rather than listen to what I and others think, how about the newbies who
>>
>>are
>>
>>>getting into IT find themselves a position for which they qualify?
>>>
>>>I went to www.monster.com and searched for MCSE and got 20 pages of
>>>positions.
>>>
>>>I could not find one that was MCSE only. If you can, please reply with a
>>>link to it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
| |
| Dr Zoidberg 2003-08-01, 6:25 am |
| Wilson wrote:
> Rather than listen to what I and others think, how about the newbies
> who are getting into IT find themselves a position for which they
> qualify?
>
> I went to www.monster.com and searched for MCSE and got 20 pages of
> positions.
>
> I could not find one that was MCSE only. If you can, please reply
> with a link to it.
I got a job that was MCSE only and although it stated "ideally 3 years
experience" I got an interview as I had explained my non commercial
experience in the CV and covering letter.
During the interview I explained what I had and hadn't done , described what
I had done in the way of training using my lab , and asked good technical
questions about how their network was set up and why. I was honest about
what I didn't know but emphasised my ability and willingness to learn , all
of which showed that I knew a lot more than braindump answers , and I got
the job which pays very nicely thankyou.
--
Alex
"I laugh in the face of danger"
"Then I hide until it goes away"
www.drzoidberg.co.uk
| |
| Wilson 2003-08-01, 11:26 am |
|
"Dr Zoidberg" <AlexNOOOOO!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bgdda1$nfpaa$1@ID-46820.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Wilson wrote:
> > Rather than listen to what I and others think, how about the newbies
> > who are getting into IT find themselves a position for which they
> > qualify?
> >
> > I went to www.monster.com and searched for MCSE and got 20 pages of
> > positions.
> >
> > I could not find one that was MCSE only. If you can, please reply
> > with a link to it.
>
> I got a job that was MCSE only and although it stated "ideally 3 years
> experience" I got an interview as I had explained my non commercial
> experience in the CV and covering letter.
>
> During the interview I explained what I had and hadn't done , described
what
> I had done in the way of training using my lab , and asked good technical
> questions about how their network was set up and why. I was honest about
> what I didn't know but emphasised my ability and willingness to learn ,
all
> of which showed that I knew a lot more than braindump answers , and I got
> the job which pays very nicely thankyou.
> --
>
My point has never been about the use of braindumps. The test questions are
done in a way that you have to have understanding in order to pass. I'm also
not against the MCSE or consider it easy. My point is that in today's job
market you need much more than a cert to get a job. I talk to IT almost
daily that are out of work who have a very rich resume (CV).
Jobs are going away at a fast clip. There has been good news on the US
economy over the past few days but things will only get worse for IT people
as more positions are shifted to India leaving more IT people to compete for
fewer jobs.
| |
| RJ_m31 2003-08-03, 4:26 am |
| I even done a search for MCP- no experience,
you can get lots of results but when you try to contact the company the Jobs
don't exist, They are looking for degrees and experience.
They obviously post these ads just to generate traffic, so they can look
busy and tell their bosses that they recieved alot of CV's phone calls etc.
These IT recruiters jobs are all on the line for the chop. They know this!!
Nowadays they are lucky to get £9K, plus commision, almnost the same as
those wanting entry into the UK market here.
Another thing is a lot of undercutting going on, I quite clearly state on my
CV that I don't mind earning 10-15k as it's experience I need.
"Ripper" <jconley1509@charter.net> wrote in message
news:viiv61oo1aio84@corp.supernews.com...
> My dear Wilson -
>
> May it please the court , but I think that your recent caveats about the
> bleak IT job market may be somewhat overstated. If we use the example you
> just gave pertaining to the online job search for MCSE openings, you might
> have the same results with any single degree / credential / certification.
> Accounting ,engineering, human resources , or whatever - any job
description
> is going to have the inevitable string of related skills attached - things
> the employer would like to have, but probably won't get all in one
> individual employee. You do make an excellent point, though - it seems
that
> every job description nowadays in the computer / IT field seems to mention
> certs as more of an afterthought than as a principal requirement ( and I
> mean all certs, baby - Cisco, MCSE, CompTIA, the works...). This is why
I'm
> still a believer in 4yr degrees, with certifications as an add-on, or
rather
> a ratification of skills that might make you immediately useful to a
> prospective employer.
>
> Your thoughts ??
>
> "Wilson" <wilson@noemailforme.org> wrote in message
> news:speWa.1439$rJ4.1245@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > Rather than listen to what I and others think, how about the newbies who
> are
> > getting into IT find themselves a position for which they qualify?
> >
> > I went to www.monster.com and searched for MCSE and got 20 pages of
> > positions.
> >
> > I could not find one that was MCSE only. If you can, please reply with a
> > link to it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
| |
| john63401@yahoo.com 2003-08-04, 9:25 am |
| >Another thing is a lot of undercutting going on, I quite clearly state on my
>CV that I don't mind earning 10-15k as it's experience I need.
Im curious ..... what is a "CV"?
| |
| Dr Zoidberg 2003-08-04, 9:25 am |
| john63401@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Another thing is a lot of undercutting going on, I quite clearly
>> state on my CV that I don't mind earning 10-15k as it's experience I
>> need.
>
> Im curious ..... what is a "CV"?
Curriculum Vitae.
Known as a Resume in many countries
--
Alex
"I laugh in the face of danger"
"Then I hide until it goes away"
www.drzoidberg.co.uk
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