alt.certification.mcse - MCP useless.

Author

MCP useless.

RJ_m31

2003-06-23, 10:27 am

Unless you get the full MCSE, you will have no chance whatsoever of getting
a job.

I been trying to get into IT for the last 6 years, but only doing my MCSe,
for about 2,
I have no money, so can't afford test computers, books, or even the exams so
I attempt one about every 6 months as they are extremely expensive.

All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience, so even
with the mcse getting a Job will be difficult, When you have loans ,bills,
and other things to pay you have no choice but to do anything. Working for
charity for just experience is not an option (Will that put food on the
table!!!),

Whats worse is all those recruitment adverts that say MCP's are fine but
when you call them up they always find some excuse, that that your skills
don't match or it's filled already.

Do these ads have any truth in them or is it the IT recruiters way of just
trying to find people to keep them employed, as their job is always on the
line or performance based pay. I should know I got conned into being an IT
recruiter once, and was shown how cut throat the market is after being made
redundant after 2 months.

Recently I applied to Hays for an IT position, They said they had over 700
applicants. The job application was so rubbish in that it only asked for
generic information eg name, age etc, and last 5 Jobs,, HOW ON EARTH can you
demonstrate your ability for the job when they send out such crap forms.

A tip for all job hunters, If you get sent a photocopy, then don't waste
your time the vacancy is usually fulled, unless you have a phd, or degree
and they might find your form interesting, but usually it's headed straight
for the bin.

If it's a proper form on nice company paper then try your best, at least it
might get looked at.

Also how do you know if these people keep your CV, Its so easy for them to
press delete or search through them for the keywords they are looking for.

Stuart Robinson

2003-06-23, 10:27 am

> All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience

I am not sure why you expect it to be different.

If you were recruiting someone for an IT position in your company, I
suspect you would prefer real world experience in the job over
certifications.

In these lean times, its hardly surprising that certifications alone are
not enough.

Stuart.

Stuart Robinson

2003-06-23, 10:27 am

Maynard

2003-06-23, 10:27 am

Getting the MCSE in most job markets will not be enough.

You need.
1. MCSE
2. Experience
3. A degree in some cases
4. Additional skills beside MS in some cases.

Too many people are in IT or trying to be and the number of jobs is
dwindling so the qualifications for any positions are rising and the pay has
declined.

It is only going to ge worse at this point. Jobs are going to India and they
are only getting warmed up at this point. Some are beginning to take notice
of this but for the most part the media has ignored it.

"RJ_m31" <rj_m31@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:boEJa.9869$xF.605329@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> Unless you get the full MCSE, you will have no chance whatsoever of
getting
> a job.
>
> I been trying to get into IT for the last 6 years, but only doing my MCSe,
> for about 2,
> I have no money, so can't afford test computers, books, or even the exams
so
> I attempt one about every 6 months as they are extremely expensive.
>
> All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience, so even
> with the mcse getting a Job will be difficult, When you have loans ,bills,
> and other things to pay you have no choice but to do anything. Working
for
> charity for just experience is not an option (Will that put food on the
> table!!!),
>
> Whats worse is all those recruitment adverts that say MCP's are fine but
> when you call them up they always find some excuse, that that your skills
> don't match or it's filled already.
>
> Do these ads have any truth in them or is it the IT recruiters way of just
> trying to find people to keep them employed, as their job is always on the
> line or performance based pay. I should know I got conned into being an
IT
> recruiter once, and was shown how cut throat the market is after being
made
> redundant after 2 months.
>
> Recently I applied to Hays for an IT position, They said they had over 700
> applicants. The job application was so rubbish in that it only asked for
> generic information eg name, age etc, and last 5 Jobs,, HOW ON EARTH can
you
> demonstrate your ability for the job when they send out such crap forms.
>
> A tip for all job hunters, If you get sent a photocopy, then don't waste
> your time the vacancy is usually fulled, unless you have a phd, or degree
> and they might find your form interesting, but usually it's headed
straight
> for the bin.
>
> If it's a proper form on nice company paper then try your best, at least
it
> might get looked at.
>
> Also how do you know if these people keep your CV, Its so easy for them to
> press delete or search through them for the keywords they are looking for.
>
>

RJ_m31

2003-06-23, 10:27 am

I guess it's not the IT recruiters fault but the Goverments fault.

For not encouraging companies to take on trainees, apprenticeships etc,
Then getting work is still too difficult if you are over the hill.

It's about time the goverment introduced new tax bands. The current tax
bands is grossly unfair.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Robinson" <Stuartr@nospam.please>
Newsgroups: alt.certification.mcse
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: MCP useless.

> > All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience
>
> I am not sure why you expect it to be different.
>
> If you were recruiting someone for an IT position in your company, I
> suspect you would prefer real world experience in the job over
> certifications.
>
> In these lean times, its hardly surprising that certifications alone are
> not enough.
>
>
> Stuart.
"Stuart Robinson" <Stuartr@nospam.please> wrote in message
news:memo.20030623155839.632C@srnet.compulink.co.uk...
> > All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience
>
> I am not sure why you expect it to be different.
>
> If you were recruiting someone for an IT position in your company, I
> suspect you would prefer real world experience in the job over
> certifications.
>
> In these lean times, its hardly surprising that certifications alone are
> not enough.
>
>
> Stuart.

Techie

2003-06-23, 10:27 am

Unfortunately this is the way the market for IT people is right now, you
either have lots of experience and certs or no real job. However, even with
the experience and certs you will have problems landing a job due to the
current saturation of qualified IT people.

--
Techie
A+, Network+, MCP, MCNGP #21

"RJ_m31" <rj_m31@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:boEJa.9869$xF.605329@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> Unless you get the full MCSE, you will have no chance whatsoever of
getting
> a job.
>
> I been trying to get into IT for the last 6 years, but only doing my MCSe,
> for about 2,
> I have no money, so can't afford test computers, books, or even the exams
so
> I attempt one about every 6 months as they are extremely expensive.
>
> All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience, so even
> with the mcse getting a Job will be difficult, When you have loans ,bills,
> and other things to pay you have no choice but to do anything. Working
for
> charity for just experience is not an option (Will that put food on the
> table!!!),
>
> Whats worse is all those recruitment adverts that say MCP's are fine but
> when you call them up they always find some excuse, that that your skills
> don't match or it's filled already.
>
> Do these ads have any truth in them or is it the IT recruiters way of just
> trying to find people to keep them employed, as their job is always on the
> line or performance based pay. I should know I got conned into being an
IT
> recruiter once, and was shown how cut throat the market is after being
made
> redundant after 2 months.
>
> Recently I applied to Hays for an IT position, They said they had over 700
> applicants. The job application was so rubbish in that it only asked for
> generic information eg name, age etc, and last 5 Jobs,, HOW ON EARTH can
you
> demonstrate your ability for the job when they send out such crap forms.
>
> A tip for all job hunters, If you get sent a photocopy, then don't waste
> your time the vacancy is usually fulled, unless you have a phd, or degree
> and they might find your form interesting, but usually it's headed
straight
> for the bin.
>
> If it's a proper form on nice company paper then try your best, at least
it
> might get looked at.
>
> Also how do you know if these people keep your CV, Its so easy for them to
> press delete or search through them for the keywords they are looking for.
>
>

Stuart Robinson

2003-06-23, 10:27 am

> Jobs are going to India and they

Several years ago (post millennium) big business (in the UK) seemed to
persuade the Government that there was an IT skills shortage. So a scheme
was introduced that allowed companies to ask for visas and work permits to
bring in workers from aboard to make up the 'shortage'.

Surprise surprise an investigation is under way to see if the system is
being abused by companies (i.e they are importing cheaper workers).

There was an advert quoted in a UK computer rag for a position in Harrow
(not a cheap place to live);

"Graduate, experience in programming in a client server environment,
VB6\SQL, java 2, Web server using UML, should be familiar with networking
topology, CCNA, essential requirements are VB6 Windows NT4 Windows 2000,
SQL, VB6, Oracle 8i, Firewall-1, Proxy server.

Read and write English and communicate in Hindi, Urdu and preferably one
more Indian dialect and have 2 years commercial programming experience.

Salary £14,000 (a year)"

One wonders if they will fill the post, especially given the salary for
the area, but if they dont presumably they will be allowed to import a
worker since they cant fill the vacancy locally.

Stuart.

Techie

2003-06-23, 10:27 am

Give me a break its not the government's job to offer these incentives all
they do is cause turnover of staff as companies milk these programs for tax
credits

--
Techie
A+, Network+, MCP, MCNGP #21

"RJ_m31" <rj_m31@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:hHEJa.9884$xF.607653@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> I guess it's not the IT recruiters fault but the Goverments fault.
>
> For not encouraging companies to take on trainees, apprenticeships etc,
> Then getting work is still too difficult if you are over the hill.
>
> It's about time the goverment introduced new tax bands. The current tax
> bands is grossly unfair.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stuart Robinson" <Stuartr@nospam.please>
> Newsgroups: alt.certification.mcse
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:58 PM
> Subject: Re: MCP useless.
>
>
> > > All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience
> >
> > I am not sure why you expect it to be different.
> >
> > If you were recruiting someone for an IT position in your company, I
> > suspect you would prefer real world experience in the job over
> > certifications.
> >
> > In these lean times, its hardly surprising that certifications alone are
> > not enough.
> >
> >
> > Stuart.
> "Stuart Robinson" <Stuartr@nospam.please> wrote in message
> news:memo.20030623155839.632C@srnet.compulink.co.uk...
> > > All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience
> >
> > I am not sure why you expect it to be different.
> >
> > If you were recruiting someone for an IT position in your company, I
> > suspect you would prefer real world experience in the job over
> > certifications.
> >
> > In these lean times, its hardly surprising that certifications alone are
> > not enough.
> >
> >
> > Stuart.
>
>

Techie

2003-06-23, 10:27 am

Maynard,
I would agree on your points but change a few
1) a degree is becoming a must its no longer an option.
2) Additional skills outside of MS alwas were demanded but when things were
good companies would bring in others to handle things like routers now they
expect the MCSE to handle everything.

--
Techie
A+, Network+, MCP, MCNGP #21

"Maynard" <nobody@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:hsEJa.19748$bH3.1142@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...
> Getting the MCSE in most job markets will not be enough.
>
> You need.
> 1. MCSE
> 2. Experience
> 3. A degree in some cases
> 4. Additional skills beside MS in some cases.
>
> Too many people are in IT or trying to be and the number of jobs is
> dwindling so the qualifications for any positions are rising and the pay
has
> declined.
>
> It is only going to ge worse at this point. Jobs are going to India and
they
> are only getting warmed up at this point. Some are beginning to take
notice
> of this but for the most part the media has ignored it.
>
>
> "RJ_m31" <rj_m31@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:boEJa.9869$xF.605329@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> > Unless you get the full MCSE, you will have no chance whatsoever of
> getting
> > a job.
> >
> > I been trying to get into IT for the last 6 years, but only doing my
MCSe,

> > for about 2,
> > I have no money, so can't afford test computers, books, or even the
exams
> so
> > I attempt one about every 6 months as they are extremely expensive.
> >
> > All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience, so
even
> > with the mcse getting a Job will be difficult, When you have loans
,bills,
> > and other things to pay you have no choice but to do anything. Working
> for
> > charity for just experience is not an option (Will that put food on the
> > table!!!),
> >
> > Whats worse is all those recruitment adverts that say MCP's are fine but
> > when you call them up they always find some excuse, that that your
skills
> > don't match or it's filled already.
> >
> > Do these ads have any truth in them or is it the IT recruiters way of
just
> > trying to find people to keep them employed, as their job is always on
the
> > line or performance based pay. I should know I got conned into being an
> IT
> > recruiter once, and was shown how cut throat the market is after being
> made
> > redundant after 2 months.
> >
> > Recently I applied to Hays for an IT position, They said they had over
700
> > applicants. The job application was so rubbish in that it only asked for
> > generic information eg name, age etc, and last 5 Jobs,, HOW ON EARTH can
> you
> > demonstrate your ability for the job when they send out such crap forms.
> >
> > A tip for all job hunters, If you get sent a photocopy, then don't waste
> > your time the vacancy is usually fulled, unless you have a phd, or
degree
> > and they might find your form interesting, but usually it's headed
> straight
> > for the bin.
> >
> > If it's a proper form on nice company paper then try your best, at least
> it
> > might get looked at.
> >
> > Also how do you know if these people keep your CV, Its so easy for them
to
> > press delete or search through them for the keywords they are looking
for.
> >
> >
>
>
>

Bubbie

2003-06-23, 11:25 am

You will find that a lot of the "vacancies" that the IT recruitment
companies advertise don't actually exist ! They invent them to generate
CV's which they then cold call potential employers to see if they have any
vacancies for a line of suitable candidates...It's how they make thier
money.

How many jobs have you applied for that you have never had a response
to...or when you call asking for furhter details, they give you a million
and one pathetic excuses why you haven't from them...eg "We're waiting for
the employer to get back to us..."

Crazymiclo30

2003-06-24, 12:25 pm

I personally recommend if you are interested in making money to research the
oracle certifications. I think oracle is a huge product now and experience
in that will make you a lot of money. The software side of the industry is
the best place to make money these days. Thats my opinion anyway. I would
be interested in hearing if others agree with me or not.

--
crazymiclo
A+, Network+, MCP

"RJ_m31" <rj_m31@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:boEJa.9869$xF.605329@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> Unless you get the full MCSE, you will have no chance whatsoever of
getting
> a job.
>
> I been trying to get into IT for the last 6 years, but only doing my MCSe,
> for about 2,
> I have no money, so can't afford test computers, books, or even the exams
so
> I attempt one about every 6 months as they are extremely expensive.
>
> All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience, so even
> with the mcse getting a Job will be difficult, When you have loans ,bills,
> and other things to pay you have no choice but to do anything. Working
for
> charity for just experience is not an option (Will that put food on the
> table!!!),
>
> Whats worse is all those recruitment adverts that say MCP's are fine but
> when you call them up they always find some excuse, that that your skills
> don't match or it's filled already.
>
> Do these ads have any truth in them or is it the IT recruiters way of just
> trying to find people to keep them employed, as their job is always on the
> line or performance based pay. I should know I got conned into being an
IT
> recruiter once, and was shown how cut throat the market is after being
made
> redundant after 2 months.
>
> Recently I applied to Hays for an IT position, They said they had over 700
> applicants. The job application was so rubbish in that it only asked for
> generic information eg name, age etc, and last 5 Jobs,, HOW ON EARTH can
you
> demonstrate your ability for the job when they send out such crap forms.
>
> A tip for all job hunters, If you get sent a photocopy, then don't waste
> your time the vacancy is usually fulled, unless you have a phd, or degree
> and they might find your form interesting, but usually it's headed
straight
> for the bin.
>
> If it's a proper form on nice company paper then try your best, at least
it
> might get looked at.
>
> Also how do you know if these people keep your CV, Its so easy for them to
> press delete or search through them for the keywords they are looking for.
>
>

RJ_m31

2003-06-24, 2:24 pm

Just another quick note, In a PC magazine, this moth there is an interesting
article on the current IT job Market.

It just shows you all my suspicions of recruitment corruption is taken
place.
Apparently 200,000 Work Visas were issued to foreign workers, despite that
officially IT skill shortages has been taken off the register of skill
shortages.

About 67,000 maybe more in the UK are out of work and these migrating
workers are stealing their Jobs.As they are willing to work fo peanuts. Some
are even getting the VISA's then training here.

To fulfill the criteria of offering these positions to foreign workers. The
jobs have to be advertised.

Hence all these bogus adverts offering disgusting low salaries. Or none
existant positions that are already full.

The department for trade and Industry are currently investigating the UK
market.

Also there is a ridiculous number of recruitment companies in the UK. They
are almost unheard of in China.

"Bubbie" <bubbie@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:9oFJa.2508$nG4.495@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> You will find that a lot of the "vacancies" that the IT recruitment
> companies advertise don't actually exist ! They invent them to generate
> CV's which they then cold call potential employers to see if they have
any
> vacancies for a line of suitable candidates...It's how they make thier
> money.
>
> How many jobs have you applied for that you have never had a response
> to...or when you call asking for furhter details, they give you a million
> and one pathetic excuses why you haven't from them...eg "We're waiting for
> the employer to get back to us..."
>
>

pheonix1t

2003-06-25, 12:24 am

Crazymiclo30 wrote:
> I personally recommend if you are interested in making money to research the
> oracle certifications. I think oracle is a huge product now and experience
> in that will make you a lot of money. The software side of the industry is
> the best place to make money these days. Thats my opinion anyway. I would
> be interested in hearing if others agree with me or not.

this is sort of true...but on a completely different level.
most oracle jobs require a solid education in computer science or info.
systems...somehow I get the impression most people on this list are
lacking in this department - no offense.
on that note, experience is also a must. No newbie stuff...or at least
VERY rare. In the oracle "world" (or the developer/DBA world), certs
aren't highly regarded. Maybe the PR dept. puts that spin out there in
ads, but the cert. isn't the benchmark you get judged by. That
benchmark is experience, knowledge, and references.
The certs. are mainly used by big shops to keep preferred partner
status....this holds true for most big IT vendors.
You may get better chances of work with the oracle cert...but if you
don't at least have a resume with a solid education and
experience...it's a waste of money. Very few companies will let you
touch their systems with just the cert. as your ammo.
Also....at this level, it's very easy to see who does the work for the
love of it versus who does it just because they are chasing the $$$.
This work isn't for the faint of heart...it's very challenging -
requires lots of brain power.

>
> --
> crazymiclo
> A+, Network+, MCP
>
> "RJ_m31" <rj_m31@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:boEJa.9869$xF.605329@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
>>Unless you get the full MCSE, you will have no chance whatsoever of
>
> getting
>
>>a job.
>>
>>I been trying to get into IT for the last 6 years, but only doing my MCSe,
>>for about 2,
>>I have no money, so can't afford test computers, books, or even the exams
>
> so
>
>>I attempt one about every 6 months as they are extremely expensive.
>>
>>All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience, so even
>>with the mcse getting a Job will be difficult, When you have loans ,bills,
>>and other things to pay you have no choice but to do anything. Working
>
> for
>
>>charity for just experience is not an option (Will that put food on the
>>table!!!),
>>
>>Whats worse is all those recruitment adverts that say MCP's are fine but
>>when you call them up they always find some excuse, that that your skills
>>don't match or it's filled already.
>>
>>Do these ads have any truth in them or is it the IT recruiters way of just
>>trying to find people to keep them employed, as their job is always on the
>>line or performance based pay. I should know I got conned into being an
>
> IT
>
>>recruiter once, and was shown how cut throat the market is after being
>
> made
>
>>redundant after 2 months.
>>
>>Recently I applied to Hays for an IT position, They said they had over 700
>>applicants. The job application was so rubbish in that it only asked for
>>generic information eg name, age etc, and last 5 Jobs,, HOW ON EARTH can
>
> you
>
>>demonstrate your ability for the job when they send out such crap forms.
>>
>>A tip for all job hunters, If you get sent a photocopy, then don't waste
>>your time the vacancy is usually fulled, unless you have a phd, or degree
>>and they might find your form interesting, but usually it's headed
>
> straight
>
>>for the bin.
>>
>>If it's a proper form on nice company paper then try your best, at least
>
> it
>
>>might get looked at.
>>
>>Also how do you know if these people keep your CV, Its so easy for them to
>>press delete or search through them for the keywords they are looking for.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

pheonix1t

2003-06-25, 12:25 am

Crazymiclo30

2003-06-25, 7:24 am

Good thing I have my degree in computer info systems. I may want to pursue
a career in that direction. I am not sure. I might be going back to school
to get my MBA soon. I figure I should get it done while I am young and the
job market sucks. Then in a few years when I get out things might be
better. I actually have a pretty good job right now but I don't like the
location. Oh well.

--
crazymiclo
A+, Network+, MCP

"pheonix1t" <pheonix1t@i8989earthlink89745.net> wrote in message
news:3EF92934.6030506@i8989earthlink89745.net...
> Crazymiclo30 wrote:
> > I personally recommend if you are interested in making money to research
the
> > oracle certifications. I think oracle is a huge product now and
experience
> > in that will make you a lot of money. The software side of the industry
is
> > the best place to make money these days. Thats my opinion anyway. I
would

> > be interested in hearing if others agree with me or not.
>
> this is sort of true...but on a completely different level.
> most oracle jobs require a solid education in computer science or info.
> systems...somehow I get the impression most people on this list are
> lacking in this department - no offense.
> on that note, experience is also a must. No newbie stuff...or at least
> VERY rare. In the oracle "world" (or the developer/DBA world), certs
> aren't highly regarded. Maybe the PR dept. puts that spin out there in
> ads, but the cert. isn't the benchmark you get judged by. That
> benchmark is experience, knowledge, and references.
> The certs. are mainly used by big shops to keep preferred partner
> status....this holds true for most big IT vendors.
> You may get better chances of work with the oracle cert...but if you
> don't at least have a resume with a solid education and
> experience...it's a waste of money. Very few companies will let you
> touch their systems with just the cert. as your ammo.
> Also....at this level, it's very easy to see who does the work for the
> love of it versus who does it just because they are chasing the $$$.
> This work isn't for the faint of heart...it's very challenging -
> requires lots of brain power.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > --
> > crazymiclo
> > A+, Network+, MCP
> >
> > "RJ_m31" <rj_m31@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:boEJa.9869$xF.605329@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> >
> >>Unless you get the full MCSE, you will have no chance whatsoever of
> >
> > getting
> >
> >>a job.
> >>
> >>I been trying to get into IT for the last 6 years, but only doing my
MCSe,

> >>for about 2,
> >>I have no money, so can't afford test computers, books, or even the
exams

> >
> > so
> >
> >>I attempt one about every 6 months as they are extremely expensive.
> >>
> >>All the companies are interested in are 3 or 4 years exeperience, so
even[
color=darkred]
> >>with the mcse getting a Job will be difficult, When you have loans[/color]
,bills,
> >>and other things to pay you have no choice but to do anything. Working
> >
> > for
> >
> >>charity for just experience is not an option (Will that put food on the
> >>table!!!),
> >>
> >>Whats worse is all those recruitment adverts that say MCP's are fine but
> >>when you call them up they always find some excuse, that that your
skills
> >>don't match or it's filled already.
> >>
> >>Do these ads have any truth in them or is it the IT recruiters way of
just[
color=darkred]
> >>trying to find people to keep them employed, as their job is always on[/color]
the[c
olor=darkred]
> >>line or performance based pay. I should know I got conned into being an
> >
> > IT
> >
> >>recruiter once, and was shown how cut throat the market is after being
> >
> > made
> >
> >>redundant after 2 months.
> >>
> >>Recently I applied to Hays for an IT position, They said they had over[/color]
700[c
olor=darkred]
> >>applicants. The job application was so rubbish in that it only asked for
> >>generic information eg name, age etc, and last 5 Jobs,, HOW ON EARTH can
> >
> > you
> >
> >>demonstrate your ability for the job when they send out such crap forms.
> >>
> >>A tip for all job hunters, If you get sent a photocopy, then don't waste
> >>your time the vacancy is usually fulled, unless you have a phd, or[/color]
degree
> >>and they might find your form interesting, but usually it's headed
> >
> > straight
> >
> >>for the bin.
> >>
> >>If it's a proper form on nice company paper then try your best, at least
> >
> > it
> >
> >>might get looked at.
> >>
> >>Also how do you know if these people keep your CV, Its so easy for them
to[co
lor=darkred]
> >>press delete or search through them for the keywords they are looking[/color]
for. [colo
r=darkred]
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>[/color]

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