alt.certification.mcse - Today's menu

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Today's menu

Rob Hammersmith

2002-08-28, 10:30 am

McMuffin

McNuggets

McFlurry

McSystems Engineer

McSystems Administrator

McProfessional

With so many people having the M$ certifications with no on the job
experience, the certifications today are seen by the market as having no
more value than a Big Mac. If you have a M$ cert and no experience, the only
place that is going to let you have anything other than an entry level
position is Hamburger U. And even then you still have much to learn before
you will be ready to do your job properly. For years, training companies
have been saying that MCSE's make $75-125K a year. While that was true,
those people made $75-125K a year because of their work experience and their
proven ability to do the job, not their because of their certification. In
any profession you will make what YOU are worth, not what your certification
says you are worth. The average salary of MCSE's is dropping annually
because people who are worth $30K and less a year are obtaining MCSEs.
People should get into this profession because they like the work, not
because they want the salary someone else proved they were worth. People in
this profession should continue to update their skills and learn because
they want to provide better service and work with different products, not
because people with a particular certification are being paid more than they
are. It's the trailblazers that set the average salary because THEY were
worth the salary, then others try and get the same salary, riding their coat
tails by imitating the certifications the trailblazers had. Ask yourself
what you are worth and why you are worth it. If you think you are worth a
certain salary because you hold certain certifications, then you are
probably riding on someone else's coat tails. If you think you are worth a
certain salary regardless of your certifications, then you are probably
being paid what you are worth and you are a trail blazer setting the proper
average salary for your skill set. If you have no experience and are
pursuing certification, be prepared to be paid what you are worth, probably
not much until you get experience. If you have your certification and are
disappointed that you can't get anything except entry level, welcome to
reality. That is most likely all you are worth until you get experience.
Until then your M$ certification isn't worth much more than a Big Mac,
because everyone has them, and most people looking for jobs will have more
experience than you.

Nigel Swan

2002-08-28, 3:29 pm

Don't post here then.

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Nigel Swan

2002-08-28, 4:29 pm

Don't post here then.

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Blaze / Gromit

2002-08-28, 6:29 pm

"Nigel Swan" <BOOMBOOM@bt.com> wrote in message
news:akjcld$1i2hvq$1@ID-140288.news.dfncis.de...

> Don't post here then.
>
>
Why its the truth.. that every newbie need to know.. the good old days are
finished..now bullsh*t walks and experience talks

Blaze / Gromit

2002-08-28, 7:29 pm

some.dude

2002-08-28, 8:28 pm

bullshit will ALWAYS talk....and experience will talk too...its up to the
person doing the HIRING to weed out the banana's...if you dont know your
shit....your screwed.....the industry is simply to competitive....nothing
new or dramatic about it.....its JUST LIKE any other industry....no
difference....you dont see lawyers running around telling people "dont go to
law school" because theres too many lawyers....the only folks telling others
not to come to this industry are those with no skills.....afraid of being
"found out" i guess.....

"Blaze / Gromit" <asfdaf@aff.com> wrote in message
news:akjopq$g9c$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Nigel Swan" <BOOMBOOM@bt.com> wrote in message
> news:akjcld$1i2hvq$1@ID-140288.news.dfncis.de...
>
> > Don't post here then.
> >
> >
> Why its the truth.. that every newbie need to know.. the good old days are
> finished..now bullsh*t walks and experience talks
>
>

freak

2002-08-28, 8:50 pm

Not *that* old thread again... Bottom line is that it is better to be good looking and rich than ugly and poor... no crap!

Yup, it is better to have both experience and certs, than to not have any of the above. Agreed. Next point

some.dude

2002-08-28, 9:29 pm

Uncle_Albert

2002-08-28, 10:29 pm

"some.dude" <some.dude@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:zofb9.846$EB3.556@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> bullshit will ALWAYS talk....and experience will talk too...its up to the
> person doing the HIRING to weed out the banana's...if you dont know your
> shit....your screwed.....the industry is simply to competitive....nothing
> new or dramatic about it.....its JUST LIKE any other industry....no
> difference....you dont see lawyers running around telling people "dont go
to
> law school" because theres too many lawyers....the only folks telling
others
> not to come to this industry are those with no skills.....afraid of being
> "found out" i guess.....
>

]
you are so missing the point some.dude. nothing was said about staying away
from this industry, all that was said is, because of the economic situation
as it stands, paper certs wont do you much good without the experience to
back them up.Unfortunately there are those that think that once you have a
cert or 2, " you're in". I have spoken to numerous recruiters and human
resource people and they say the same thing "we are looking for experience".

Uncle_Albert

2002-08-28, 11:29 pm

sux0rs

2002-08-29, 12:29 am

"Rob Hammersmith" <rhammersmith@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:En5b9.7745$pv6.859472@cletus.bright.net...
> McMuffin
>
> McNuggets
>
> McFlurry
>
> McSystems Engineer
>
> McSystems Administrator
>
> McProfessional

hehe :-)

<snip usual crap>

--
sux0rs @ www.defkon.org =)
Remove Ugh ...

some.dude

2002-08-29, 5:28 am

there are some who think that once you graduate college "your in"
too....then they find out how much work it is to succeed....not much
difference as far as i can see...sorry if i missed the
point....carpetbaggers come and carpetbaggers go....if you work hard and
love what you are doing, well....you will always make out ok....

"Uncle_Albert" <Me@home.com> wrote in message
news:drgb9.8780$aU3.1299881@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "some.dude" <some.dude@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:zofb9.846$EB3.556@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > bullshit will ALWAYS talk....and experience will talk too...its up to
the
> > person doing the HIRING to weed out the banana's...if you dont know your
> > shit....your screwed.....the industry is simply to
competitive.... nothing
> > new or dramatic about it.....its JUST LIKE any other industry....no
> > difference....you dont see lawyers running around telling people "dont
go
> to
> > law school" because theres too many lawyers....the only folks telling
> others
> > not to come to this industry are those with no skills.....afraid of
being

> > "found out" i guess.....
> >
>
> ]
> you are so missing the point some.dude. nothing was said about staying
away
> from this industry, all that was said is, because of the economic
situation
> as it stands, paper certs wont do you much good without the experience to
> back them up.Unfortunately there are those that think that once you have a
> cert or 2, " you're in". I have spoken to numerous recruiters and human
> resource people and they say the same thing "we are looking for
experience".
>
>

some.dude

2002-08-29, 6:29 am

Rob Hammersmith

2002-08-29, 8:29 am

"some.dude" <some.dude@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:zofb9.846$EB3.556@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> you dont see lawyers running around telling people "dont go to
> law school" because theres too many lawyers....

You also don't see law schools advertising the average salaries of lawyers
to increase their customer base. MCSE training companies do. You also don't
see law school boot camps, and BAR exam brain dumps (I could be wrong on
that one). I also see lawyers get disbarred for not knowing their stuff, but
an MCSE who loses his job for not knowing his stuff just gets right back in
line for the next job. You can't lose your MCSE like you can be disbarred.

> the only folks telling others
> not to come to this industry are those with no skills.

I didn't tell anyone not to come into this industry. I said what the
certifications are currently worth without experience, about as much as a
Big Mac. I have M$ and Citrix certifications. I have 2 more tests to get my
CCEA. But my salary won't change because of my CCEA certification. I am not
worth more because I have it. I am worth the jobs I can accomplish. That is
a combination of my knowledge, experience, intelligence, integrity, etc...
My certs only show I have the knowledge to pass the tests. My 3 years
experience with Citrix, and 7 years with NT and 2000 make me what I am
worth. The average salary of MCSEs is dropping because people who are worth
little (no experience) are obtaining MCSEs.

Rob Hammersmith

2002-08-29, 9:29 am

Uncle_Albert

2002-08-29, 10:29 am

You are right

)

"some.dude" <some.dude@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:qbnb9.2673$RG5.145@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> there are some who think that once you graduate college "your in"
> too....then they find out how much work it is to succeed....not much
> difference as far as i can see...sorry if i missed the
> point....carpetbaggers come and carpetbaggers go....if you work hard and
> love what you are doing, well....you will always make out ok....
>
>
>
> "Uncle_Albert" <Me@home.com> wrote in message
> news:drgb9.8780$aU3.1299881@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> >
> > "some.dude" <some.dude@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:zofb9.846$EB3.556@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > > bullshit will ALWAYS talk....and experience will talk too...its up to
> the
> > > person doing the HIRING to weed out the banana's...if you dont know
your[
color=darkred]
> > > shit....your screwed.....the industry is simply to
> competitive.... nothing
> > > new or dramatic about it.....its JUST LIKE any other industry....no
> > > difference....you dont see lawyers running around telling people "dont
> go
> > to
> > > law school" because theres too many lawyers....the only folks telling
> > others
> > > not to come to this industry are those with no skills.....afraid of
> being
> > > "found out" i guess.....
> > >
> >
> > ]
> > you are so missing the point some.dude. nothing was said about staying
> away
> > from this industry, all that was said is, because of the economic
> situation
> > as it stands, paper certs wont do you much good without the experience[/color]
to
> > back them up.Unfortunately there are those that think that once you have
a
> > cert or 2, " you're in". I have spoken to numerous recruiters and human
> > resource people and they say the same thing "we are looking for
> experience".
> >
> >
>
>

Uncle_Albert

2002-08-29, 11:29 am

You are right

some.dude

2002-08-29, 10:29 pm

I didn't say it was a perfect system, but the rule of "supply and demand"
applies...if there was no demand for training, training wouldnt exist would
it? Employers demand certified people, so schools pop up offering
training...I'm an MCT, trust me: I KNOW a lot of these people shouldnt
gravitate to IT, but they are customers so we train them...a lot of them
show very little interest, screw off all day playing games, surfing the
'net, do the labs, take a test with a troytec and think they are
"trained"....then wonder why they can't get through a Technical Interview!
Then they go back to driving trucks or waitressing or whatever...supply and
demand rule this industry and M$ needs to raise the bar on the certification
and create a "CCIE" type setup with on-sight, monitored testing for
competency in real world situations/scenarios....integration with different
technologies, troubleshooting...the whole 9 yards...law schools dont HAVE to
advertise 'cus everyone knows what lawyers make! Everyone knows what a
lawyer is and does....hardly anyone, contrary to popular belief in this
group, knows what an MCSE is...even some students who show up for 2151!
"what is this class?" they ask...."what's it going to do for
me?".....unreal.....but they buy into all the bullshit they hear and sign
up....caveat emptor...and the employers get burned, your right, and that
devalues the certification, I know, but thats the way it is....the
curricullum is "canned", the labs are "canned", the students are eventually
"canned".....not much that can be done about it.....all you can do is be the
best you can be, let the results of YOUR work speak for themselves, and you
won't have to worry much...there is always work for good tech's....I do
consulting work on the side, never have a problem finding work, never short
of cash....I do good work and word gets around....mostly I go clean up other
people's screwups...people who "think" they understand Active Directory,
DNS/DHCP integration, group policy...one idiot totally locked down his own
network and NO ONE could get in to do ANYTHING....stuff like that....they
should "disbar" him for that!!!!

"Rob Hammersmith" <rhammersmith@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:yUpb9.7840$pv6.867767@cletus.bright.net...
> "some.dude" <some.dude@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:zofb9.846$EB3.556@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
> > you dont see lawyers running around telling people "dont go to
> > law school" because theres too many lawyers....
>
> You also don't see law schools advertising the average salaries of lawyers
> to increase their customer base. MCSE training companies do. You also
don't
> see law school boot camps, and BAR exam brain dumps (I could be wrong on
> that one). I also see lawyers get disbarred for not knowing their stuff,
but
> an MCSE who loses his job for not knowing his stuff just gets right back
in
> line for the next job. You can't lose your MCSE like you can be disbarred.
>
> > the only folks telling others
> > not to come to this industry are those with no skills.
>
> I didn't tell anyone not to come into this industry. I said what the
> certifications are currently worth without experience, about as much as a
> Big Mac. I have M$ and Citrix certifications. I have 2 more tests to get
my
> CCEA. But my salary won't change because of my CCEA certification. I am
not
> worth more because I have it. I am worth the jobs I can accomplish. That
is
> a combination of my knowledge, experience, intelligence, integrity, etc...
> My certs only show I have the knowledge to pass the tests. My 3 years
> experience with Citrix, and 7 years with NT and 2000 make me what I am
> worth. The average salary of MCSEs is dropping because people who are
worth
> little (no experience) are obtaining MCSEs.
>
>
>
>
>
>

some.dude

2002-08-29, 11:29 pm

Rob Hammersmith

2002-08-30, 10:29 am

"some.dude" <some.dude@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:POBb9.7467$RG5.5567@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> I didn't say it was a perfect system, but the rule of "supply and demand"
> applies...if there was no demand for training, training wouldnt exist
would
> it?

If there was a demand for training, the training centers wouldn't be
advertising that MCSE's make $75K a year. The sole purpose of advertising is
to INCREASE demand.

> Employers demand certified people, so schools pop up offering
> training.

That used to be the case when the few MCSE's were people worth $75K. Now
there are tons of people with MCSE's worth less than $30K such that the
employers don't care if you have the cert or not. They want experience.

> ..I'm an MCT, trust me: I KNOW a lot of these people shouldnt
> gravitate to IT, but they are customers so we train them...

Now I can see why you don't like me expressing the truth of how little worth
an MCSE with no experience has today.

> a lot of them
> show very little interest, screw off all day playing games, surfing the
> 'net, do the labs, take a test with a troytec and think they are
> "trained"....then wonder why they can't get through a Technical
Interview!
> Then they go back to driving trucks or waitressing or whatever.

Like I said, you give people who are worth $30K a year an MCSE and all you
do is decrease the average worth of an MCSE. However the people with no
experience are led to believe they will increase their worth from $30K to
$75K by obtaining the MCSE. That is not how the real world works. You are
worth the job you can perform, and people with no experience and an MCSE can
only perform entry level positions. They are worth entry level pay.

> ..supply and
> demand rule this industry and M$ needs to raise the bar on the
certification
> and create a "CCIE" type setup with on-sight, monitored testing for
> competency in real world situations/scenarios....integration with
different
> technologies, troubleshooting...the whole 9 yards...

No argument there. But it still doesn't change the fact that people with no
experience are only worth entry level positions. A person with no experience
who obtains M$'s new CCIE type cert is still only worth an entry level
position.

> law schools dont HAVE to
> advertise 'cus everyone knows what lawyers make!

Law schools also don't except questionable students. If they don't think you
have the intelligence to graduate, you aren't accepted. They could accept
all applicants and make a ton more money, but they would be doing the
community a disservice by training people to be lawyers who lack the skills
to be a good lawyer. MCSE training schools will take anyone's money, even
people who have no idea why they are they.

> Everyone knows what a
> lawyer is and does....hardly anyone, contrary to popular belief in this
> group, knows what an MCSE is...even some students who show up for 2151!
> "what is this class?" they ask...."what's it going to do for
> me?".....unreal.....but they buy into all the bullshit they hear and sign
> up....caveat emptor.

Case in point.

>..and the employers get burned, your right, and that
> devalues the certification, I know, but thats the way it is.

Which is pretty much exactly what my original post says. This is the way it
is. This is today's menu. The MCSE with no experience is worth about as much
as a Big Mac today.

> ..the
> curricullum is "canned", the labs are "canned", the students are
eventually
> "canned".....not much that can be done about it.....all you can do is be
the
> best you can be, let the results of YOUR work speak for themselves, and
you
> won't have to worry much.

Which is exactly my point. "Let the results of YOUR work speak for
themselves", that is letting your experience speak how much you are worth.
Your certification does little in doing such.

> ..there is always work for good tech's.

I agree. There are always entry level positions too. But the biggest problem
today is that people with an MCSE and no experience are led to believe they
are worth more than entry level.

>...I do
> consulting work on the side, never have a problem finding work, never
short
> of cash....I do good work and word gets around.

Exactly, word of your experience gets around.

> ...mostly I go clean up other
> people's screwups...people who "think" they understand Active Directory,
> DNS/DHCP integration, group policy...one idiot totally locked down his own
> network and NO ONE could get in to do ANYTHING....stuff like that....they
> should "disbar" him for that!!!!

Sounds like you and I agree!

Rob Hammersmith

2002-08-30, 11:28 am

some.dude

2002-08-30, 12:29 pm

yea...i guess we took the long way around the barn there didnt we!
lol.....as for my being MCT and not liking the truth (NOT true....truth is
always best) I disagree (partly)...it has nothing to do with your truth per
se, I have gone round and round with this, with the sales folks at my
school, who tell people all kinds of bullshit about what they are going to
learn, how good they will be at it, how much they will make...they have to
take an "entrance exam" as we are accredited by the state, and a lot of
folks dont make it...but a good percentage that DO make the entrance, STILL
dont quite belong in the classes because they have no real concept or
understanding of what we do in this field! They could just as easily have
signed up for auto mechanics classes, and not know the diff!!! they just see
the dollar signs.....now the reason I stay in it is for the 15 % or so of
students who are kick XXX! Work hard, motivated, learn a lot, ask
challenging questions, demand quality from ME...that keeps my edge up and
makes it fun...lets face it...if I get a class of 24 students and only 4
finish with anything going for them, then THAT's the 4 the IT industry
wants....they will do well on tech interviews and go on to good careers....I
have seen it too many times not to believe it....and they usually get a lot
more money then the other students...but I see and hear of a lot more
employers scrutinizing potential employees more closely and your are right,
it is the direct result of the things you mentioned...the good students
still got more money.

Like I said...what can you do about it? Its just the way things are for
now...

"Rob Hammersmith" <rhammersmith@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xwLb9.7947$pv6.875506@cletus.bright.net...
> "some.dude" <some.dude@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:POBb9.7467$RG5.5567@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> > I didn't say it was a perfect system, but the rule of "supply and
demand"
> > applies...if there was no demand for training, training wouldnt exist
> would
> > it?
>
> If there was a demand for training, the training centers wouldn't be
> advertising that MCSE's make $75K a year. The sole purpose of advertising
is
> to INCREASE demand.
>
> > Employers demand certified people, so schools pop up offering
> > training.
>
> That used to be the case when the few MCSE's were people worth $75K. Now
> there are tons of people with MCSE's worth less than $30K such that the
> employers don't care if you have the cert or not. They want experience.
>
> > ..I'm an MCT, trust me: I KNOW a lot of these people shouldnt
> > gravitate to IT, but they are customers so we train them...
>
> Now I can see why you don't like me expressing the truth of how little
worth
> an MCSE with no experience has today.
>
> > a lot of them
> > show very little interest, screw off all day playing games, surfing the
> > 'net, do the labs, take a test with a troytec and think they are
> > "trained"....then wonder why they can't get through a Technical
> Interview!
> > Then they go back to driving trucks or waitressing or whatever.
>
> Like I said, you give people who are worth $30K a year an MCSE and all you
> do is decrease the average worth of an MCSE. However the people with no
> experience are led to believe they will increase their worth from $30K to
> $75K by obtaining the MCSE. That is not how the real world works. You are
> worth the job you can perform, and people with no experience and an MCSE
can
> only perform entry level positions. They are worth entry level pay.
>
>
> > ..supply and
> > demand rule this industry and M$ needs to raise the bar on the
> certification
> > and create a "CCIE" type setup with on-sight, monitored testing for
> > competency in real world situations/scenarios....integration with
> different
> > technologies, troubleshooting...the whole 9 yards...
>
> No argument there. But it still doesn't change the fact that people with
no
> experience are only worth entry level positions. A person with no
experience
> who obtains M$'s new CCIE type cert is still only worth an entry level
> position.
>
> > law schools dont HAVE to
> > advertise 'cus everyone knows what lawyers make!
>
> Law schools also don't except questionable students. If they don't think
you
> have the intelligence to graduate, you aren't accepted. They could accept
> all applicants and make a ton more money, but they would be doing the
> community a disservice by training people to be lawyers who lack the
skills
> to be a good lawyer. MCSE training schools will take anyone's money, even
> people who have no idea why they are they.
>
> > Everyone knows what a
> > lawyer is and does....hardly anyone, contrary to popular belief in this
> > group, knows what an MCSE is...even some students who show up for 2151!
> > "what is this class?" they ask...."what's it going to do for
> > me?".....unreal.....but they buy into all the bullshit they hear and
sign
> > up....caveat emptor.
>
> Case in point.
>
> >..and the employers get burned, your right, and that
> > devalues the certification, I know, but thats the way it is.
>
> Which is pretty much exactly what my original post says. This is the way
it
> is. This is today's menu. The MCSE with no experience is worth about as
much
> as a Big Mac today.
>
> > ..the
> > curricullum is "canned", the labs are "canned", the students are
> eventually
> > "canned".....not much that can be done about it.....all you can do is be
> the
> > best you can be, let the results of YOUR work speak for themselves, and
> you
> > won't have to worry much.
>
> Which is exactly my point. "Let the results of YOUR work speak for
> themselves", that is letting your experience speak how much you are worth.
> Your certification does little in doing such.
>
> > ..there is always work for good tech's.
>
> I agree. There are always entry level positions too. But the biggest
problem
> today is that people with an MCSE and no experience are led to believe
they
> are worth more than entry level.
>
> >...I do
> > consulting work on the side, never have a problem finding work, never
> short
> > of cash....I do good work and word gets around.
>
> Exactly, word of your experience gets around.
>
> > ...mostly I go clean up other
> > people's screwups...people who "think" they understand Active Directory,
> > DNS/DHCP integration, group policy...one idiot totally locked down his
own
> > network and NO ONE could get in to do ANYTHING....stuff like
that....they
> > should "disbar" him for that!!!!
>
> Sounds like you and I agree!
>
>

some.dude

2002-08-30, 1:29 pm

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