alt.certification.mcse - What's on my mind....

Author

What's on my mind....

DenverBob

2002-08-22, 11:29 am

Recently, a bunch of people have jumped on their soap boxes here, so I guess
it's my turn now. I've been in this business about 20 years. I've seen the
trends come and go. The current market situation in IT was fairly
predictable. IMHO, anyone who was caught by surprise at the recent IT
downturn is an ignorant fool. Most of the experienced IT people watched in
amazement as Venture Capitalists threw tons of money into illusionary
companies...and wondered when it was all going to finally come crashing down
with an enormous "thud". Needless to say, the "thud" has happened. To all
the optimists out there...forget about any significant change for at least
12 to 18 months. When all the unemployment checks run out, and all the
bandwagon jumpers are forced into finding alternate employment for the sake
of survival, we'll see a small (but controlled) upturn. You can also forget
about any illusions of another IT feeding frenzy for at least the next 5
years. The "Goldrush" is over. People have been burned, and they won't
forget too quickly. For those of us who are lifers in this business...we
just need to ride it out like we always do. This is the third time for me.
I feel badly for the "real" IT people who were caught in the wake of this
crash. It has hit us all to some degree (I've cut my rates drastically just
to stay around with my existing clients). For the newbies....welcome to IT
(I'll bet they didn't teach you this in boot camp, did they?). For the old
IT folks....Here we go again.

The MCSE won't hurt you....but don't have any illusions about it being your
golden ticket either. Until Microsoft takes the necessary steps to make it
more credible, you'll find it losing it's worth faster that you can say
"braindump". I'm a recent W2K MCSE, and it has helped me with some new
prospects....but the experience was the KEY factor. Employers are getting
much wiser, and soon the MCSE won't be worth the paper it's written on
unless you have the rest of the package (experience, degree, ect.) to back
it up. Same goes for many other certs out there. I love the paper
collectors on this NG...running around with the illusion that the more certs
you have after your name, the more opportunities you'll get. Have fun in
la-la land. You're scaring off more people than you're attracting. If your
certs, degree, and experience don't compliment one another, you're hurting
yourself. Pick a career already, and stop trying to be a certification
poster child.

Personally, I'd love to see Microsoft make the MCSE as difficult to get as a
CCIE. It should involve a practical exam, and VERIFYABLE experience of at
least 2 years in the field. I know it'll never happen, but it doesn't hurt
to wish. They could keep the lower level certs in place (MCP/MCSA) for the
works in progress. Unfortunately, Microsoft is very profit oriented....and
wannabes spend a lot of money on certifications these days. I also think
that there should be a reasonable "de-certification" process. Hey, if
someone shows up on a job and can't perform tasks which an MCSE should be
able to perform...then I think employers should have the right to challenge
that certification. If the person can't pass the the challenge, they should
be de-certified! I think this would go a long way toward killing off the
braindumps and bootcamps. And what's wrong with a recertification every two
years! If you're a real IT professional, it should be easy.

I've got one test remaining for my MCDBA. I'm getting that cert because it
is completely relevent to my specialty (data driven web architecture -
highly available clustering solutions). I may also pursue some lightweight
certs in Sun and Cisco (again, relevent to what I do). I probably won't sit
my one remaining exam for the MCDBA for at least another 2 months (70-229).
Why? Because I won't have an MCDBA until I feel I'm ready for it....and I
don't have T-SQL coding down well enough yet to consider MYSELF proficient.
I know I could cram for, and pass that test in 2 weeks...but I won't do it
until I've earned it. I will be proficient in T-SQL when I sit that
exam...and I'll be just as proficient on the job.

Yeah, I know I'll probably get flamed mecilessly for this "War and Peace"
rant, but I know alot of others are thinking exactly the same thing. I have
nothing at all against anyone getting into this business. They just need to
know what it's really about...and not what they heard on some late night
infomercial. You need to be ready to do the time....just like every other
career out there. Quit chasing the quick money...it's all gone, and it
ain't gonna be back for quite some time.

DenverBob

take@guess.com

2002-08-22, 11:29 am

DenverBob wrote:
(sorry for all the snipping Bob, but you posted alot :-))
<snip>

> When all the unemployment checks run out, and all the
> bandwagon jumpers are forced into finding alternate employment for the sake
> of survival, we'll see a small (but controlled) upturn. You can also forget
> about any illusions of another IT feeding frenzy for at least the next 5
> years.

Another point, or question I guess, I would like to state/ask about the future
of IT. I have been in this biz for almost a decade now. I am still trying to
sort out what our (IT professionals) status will be with all these kids with
more and more computer and even networking skills graduating from high school.
Will we become valued like the carpenters/machinists/mechanics, whose skills can
be learned in high school, but still require alot of skill and
knowledge/training/competence? Or will we be valued more like
engineers/accountants, white color professionals highly trained in specific
areas? I`d prefer the latter. I`m not asking about opportunities necessarily,
but others` perceptions.

> Personally, I'd love to see Microsoft make the MCSE as difficult to get as a
> CCIE. It should involve a practical exam, and VERIFYABLE experience of at
> least 2 years in the field.

I agree! I think the exams are plenty hard though, atleast to me. I have no
problem figuring out IP addressing on a multi-subnet network. The hard questions
for me are the ones that require you know all the tabs you need to click through
to get somewhere, since I am just so used to knowing where everything is that I
need without saying the names of the tabs.
I think they should just throw you into a network, make you plan everything out
and implament it. They should give you a set time, and grade you on the
functioning of what you created.

take@guess.com

2002-08-22, 12:29 pm

Jim Yiapanis

2002-08-22, 11:29 pm

Keep in mind that this newsgroup is called alt.certification.mcse.

Sure experience matters more than certs, but these particular news groups
specifically cater for certification discussion.

And the more certs you do have the better your chances is correct (as long
as you can back them up with some experience)

Better to have certs + no experience than no certs + no experience. Whatever
the case certs do not hurt your resume, they enhance it.

"DenverBob" <bob@denver.net> wrote in message
news:dV799.3401$wj.1105998@news.uswest.net...
> Recently, a bunch of people have jumped on their soap boxes here, so I
guess
> it's my turn now. I've been in this business about 20 years. I've seen
the
> trends come and go. The current market situation in IT was fairly
> predictable. IMHO, anyone who was caught by surprise at the recent IT
> downturn is an ignorant fool. Most of the experienced IT people watched
in
> amazement as Venture Capitalists threw tons of money into illusionary
> companies...and wondered when it was all going to finally come crashing
down
> with an enormous "thud". Needless to say, the "thud" has happened. To
all
> the optimists out there...forget about any significant change for at least
> 12 to 18 months. When all the unemployment checks run out, and all the
> bandwagon jumpers are forced into finding alternate employment for the
sake
> of survival, we'll see a small (but controlled) upturn. You can also
forget
> about any illusions of another IT feeding frenzy for at least the next 5
> years. The "Goldrush" is over. People have been burned, and they won't
> forget too quickly. For those of us who are lifers in this business...we
> just need to ride it out like we always do. This is the third time for
me.
> I feel badly for the "real" IT people who were caught in the wake of this
> crash. It has hit us all to some degree (I've cut my rates drastically
just
> to stay around with my existing clients). For the newbies....welcome to
IT
> (I'll bet they didn't teach you this in boot camp, did they?). For the
old
> IT folks....Here we go again.
>
> The MCSE won't hurt you....but don't have any illusions about it being
your
> golden ticket either. Until Microsoft takes the necessary steps to make
it
> more credible, you'll find it losing it's worth faster that you can say
> "braindump". I'm a recent W2K MCSE, and it has helped me with some new
> prospects....but the experience was the KEY factor. Employers are getting
> much wiser, and soon the MCSE won't be worth the paper it's written on
> unless you have the rest of the package (experience, degree, ect.) to back
> it up. Same goes for many other certs out there. I love the paper
> collectors on this NG...running around with the illusion that the more
certs
> you have after your name, the more opportunities you'll get. Have fun in
> la-la land. You're scaring off more people than you're attracting. If
your
> certs, degree, and experience don't compliment one another, you're hurting
> yourself. Pick a career already, and stop trying to be a certification
> poster child.
>
> Personally, I'd love to see Microsoft make the MCSE as difficult to get as
a
> CCIE. It should involve a practical exam, and VERIFYABLE experience of at
> least 2 years in the field. I know it'll never happen, but it doesn't
hurt
> to wish. They could keep the lower level certs in place (MCP/MCSA) for
the
> works in progress. Unfortunately, Microsoft is very profit
oriented....and
> wannabes spend a lot of money on certifications these days. I also think
> that there should be a reasonable "de-certification" process. Hey, if
> someone shows up on a job and can't perform tasks which an MCSE should be
> able to perform...then I think employers should have the right to
challenge
> that certification. If the person can't pass the the challenge, they
should
> be de-certified! I think this would go a long way toward killing off the
> braindumps and bootcamps. And what's wrong with a recertification every
two
> years! If you're a real IT professional, it should be easy.
>
> I've got one test remaining for my MCDBA. I'm getting that cert because
it
> is completely relevent to my specialty (data driven web architecture -
> highly available clustering solutions). I may also pursue some
lightweight
> certs in Sun and Cisco (again, relevent to what I do). I probably won't
sit
> my one remaining exam for the MCDBA for at least another 2 months
(70-229).
> Why? Because I won't have an MCDBA until I feel I'm ready for it....and I
> don't have T-SQL coding down well enough yet to consider MYSELF
proficient.
> I know I could cram for, and pass that test in 2 weeks...but I won't do it
> until I've earned it. I will be proficient in T-SQL when I sit that
> exam...and I'll be just as proficient on the job.
>
> Yeah, I know I'll probably get flamed mecilessly for this "War and Peace"
> rant, but I know alot of others are thinking exactly the same thing. I
have
> nothing at all against anyone getting into this business. They just need
to
> know what it's really about...and not what they heard on some late night
> infomercial. You need to be ready to do the time....just like every other
> career out there. Quit chasing the quick money...it's all gone, and it
> ain't gonna be back for quite some time.
>
> DenverBob
>
>

Jim Yiapanis

2002-08-23, 12:29 am

DenverBob

2002-08-23, 10:42 am

I completely agree with you...I just think that too many people are being
fed the illusion that certs are the ONLY answer. I definitely think certs
are a good idea. I just don't like what they've become. I used to really
respect the MCSE. Now when I interview a candidate who claims the MCSE, the
first thought that comes to my mind is "paper or plastic...". In other
words, I need to find out if he/she is a "real" MCSE, or a paper MCSE. The
MCSE is supposed to be Microsoft's "premier" certification. For a premier
certification, it is way too easy to get. No real experience is required,
no recertification is required, no practical exam too see if you really know
your stuff, etc.. There are very few certs that I really respect these
days. The CCIE is one of them, but look at how few there are. Why?
Because you really have to know what you're doing to be able to pass. The
CCNA and CCNP are as easy to get as the MCSE, and consequently, employers
know that they may have just found a good test taker...not a Cisco router
guru. I think the MCSE should be at the same level as the CCIE, and the
MCP/MCSA should be comparable to the CCNA and CCNP respectively. I'd like
to see the MCSE get "premier" certification respect like the CCIE does. In
order for that to happen, it needs to be tougher from a requirements
perspective. The only way I know of would be to model it after the CCIE
(require the practical exam, and require recertifications every 2 years).
I'd be willing to bet that a huge percentage of current MCSE's would be
unable to pass a practical exam! I'm also betting that Microsoft knows
that. Why do you think that so many employers are now administering
practical exams during interviews? When I'm hiring a "premier"
certification, I'm not hiring a trainee....I'm hiring a guru. I'm trying to
hire the person who is going to MENTOR the other staff. I can guarantee you
that there are very few recent MCSE's who qualify in my book as mentors.
The MCSE is now just a checkbox that gets you past HR to the next level. I
guess Microsoft and I just differ substantially on our perceptions of a
"premier" certification.

"Jim Yiapanis" <yiapanis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rdj99.15479$Cq.622862@ozemail.com.au...
> Keep in mind that this newsgroup is called alt.certification.mcse.
>
> Sure experience matters more than certs, but these particular news groups
> specifically cater for certification discussion.
>
> And the more certs you do have the better your chances is correct (as long
> as you can back them up with some experience)
>
> Better to have certs + no experience than no certs + no experience.
Whatever
> the case certs do not hurt your resume, they enhance it.

Sam D.

2002-08-24, 10:42 am

You make some good points and I'd like to toss my 2 cents in, for what it's
worth. I think Microsoft brought out the MCSA cert a little to late. I feel
that the MCSA should equate to and CCNA or CCNP and the MCSE should equate
to the CCIE. You should have to hold your MCSA, in a tech position, for a
period of time before you could test for MCSE. The MCSE should hold more
status than it currently does.

That being said, you can't blame people for falling for the hype about
60-80k MCSE's in just a few short weeks. People are constantly trying to
improve their lot in life, especially in a down economy, and this seems like
a good way to do it. But, the golden rule always applies, "If it looks to
good to be true, it probably is". Buyer Beware!

You can't expect to come into an industry with 6 weeks or 6 months of
classroom experience and expect to start making big money. The same holds
true for a college degree. It's an entry point. No more, no less. It shows
you have the ability to learn. What happens next is totally up to you and
how you apply yourself to your job. Certs and degrees are wonderful for at
least getting your foot in the door, but don't expect more than that. You
still have to prove yourself.

I like Microsoft and their products. They're not perfect, but who is, i.e.
Enron, WorldCom, AT&T. I'm studying for my MCSE with little experience. I do
believe Microsoft has helped cheapen the MCSE by making it so easy to
obtain. But, I hold no illusions of six figure incomes until I have about 8
to 10 years under my belt. I love this stuff. It's great fun, but hard work.
Like anything else, if you love what you do, the money will come. If not,
the industry will weed you out ;-)

"DenverBob" <bob@denver.net> wrote in message
news:zZs99.54$rF3.25895@news.uswest.net...
> I completely agree with you...I just think that too many people are being
> fed the illusion that certs are the ONLY answer. I definitely think certs
> are a good idea. I just don't like what they've become. I used to really
> respect the MCSE. Now when I interview a candidate who claims the MCSE,
the
> first thought that comes to my mind is "paper or plastic...". In other
> words, I need to find out if he/she is a "real" MCSE, or a paper MCSE.
The
> MCSE is supposed to be Microsoft's "premier" certification. For a premier
> certification, it is way too easy to get. No real experience is required,
> no recertification is required, no practical exam too see if you really
know
> your stuff, etc.. There are very few certs that I really respect these
> days. The CCIE is one of them, but look at how few there are. Why?
> Because you really have to know what you're doing to be able to pass. The
> CCNA and CCNP are as easy to get as the MCSE, and consequently, employers
> know that they may have just found a good test taker...not a Cisco router
> guru. I think the MCSE should be at the same level as the CCIE, and the
> MCP/MCSA should be comparable to the CCNA and CCNP respectively. I'd like
> to see the MCSE get "premier" certification respect like the CCIE does.
In
> order for that to happen, it needs to be tougher from a requirements
> perspective. The only way I know of would be to model it after the CCIE
> (require the practical exam, and require recertifications every 2 years).
> I'd be willing to bet that a huge percentage of current MCSE's would be
> unable to pass a practical exam! I'm also betting that Microsoft knows
> that. Why do you think that so many employers are now administering
> practical exams during interviews? When I'm hiring a "premier"
> certification, I'm not hiring a trainee....I'm hiring a guru. I'm trying
to
> hire the person who is going to MENTOR the other staff. I can guarantee
you
> that there are very few recent MCSE's who qualify in my book as mentors.
> The MCSE is now just a checkbox that gets you past HR to the next level.
I
> guess Microsoft and I just differ substantially on our perceptions of a
> "premier" certification.
>
>
> "Jim Yiapanis" <yiapanis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:rdj99.15479$Cq.622862@ozemail.com.au...
> > Keep in mind that this newsgroup is called alt.certification.mcse.
> >
> > Sure experience matters more than certs, but these particular news
groups
> > specifically cater for certification discussion.
> >
> > And the more certs you do have the better your chances is correct (as
long
> > as you can back them up with some experience)
> >
> > Better to have certs + no experience than no certs + no experience.
> Whatever
> > the case certs do not hurt your resume, they enhance it.
>
>

Sam D.

2002-08-24, 11:42 am

DenverBob

2002-08-24, 3:42 pm

"Sam D." <1234@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:E0O99.153027$983.229073@rwcrnsc53...
> That being said, you can't blame people for falling for the hype about
> 60-80k MCSE's in just a few short weeks. People are constantly trying to
> improve their lot in life, especially in a down economy, and this seems
like
> a good way to do it. But, the golden rule always applies, "If it looks to
> good to be true, it probably is". Buyer Beware!

I agree with you. People are getting into this business thinking it's easy
money. Problem is, they're hurting the entire profession when they don't
have what it really takes to get the job done. Employers got fooled for
awhile, thinking that they were hiring experts. Instead they got wannabes.
They've learned...and I doubt that the ones who got burned will make the
same mistakes twice.

> You can't expect to come into an industry with 6 weeks or 6 months of
> classroom experience and expect to start making big money. The same holds
> true for a college degree. It's an entry point. No more, no less. It shows
> you have the ability to learn. What happens next is totally up to you and
> how you apply yourself to your job. Certs and degrees are wonderful for at
> least getting your foot in the door, but don't expect more than that. You
> still have to prove yourself.

True, but the MCSE should be identifying you as an expert....not a trainee.
Let the MCP and MCSA be the training certs.

> I like Microsoft and their products. They're not perfect, but who is, i.e.
> Enron, WorldCom, AT&T. I'm studying for my MCSE with little experience. I
do
> believe Microsoft has helped cheapen the MCSE by making it so easy to
> obtain. But, I hold no illusions of six figure incomes until I have about
8
> to 10 years under my belt. I love this stuff. It's great fun, but hard
work.
> Like anything else, if you love what you do, the money will come. If not,
> the industry will weed you out ;-)

Sounds like you're getting in with the right attitude. Again, since the
MCSE is so easy to get, it doesn't help employers "weed out" anybody. It
costs a lot to go through the hiring process, and then find out that the
individual you chose is a complete newbie who can pass a test. Most MCSEs
are not competing for entry or mid level positions....they go straight for
the top ones. Unfortunately, there aren't that many of them who are
qualified...and employers find themselves with the increasingly difficult
task of finding the ones who are (especially when they all look the same on
paper). There is nothing in the Microsoft world that separates true experts
from good test takers....

DenverBob

2002-08-24, 4:42 pm

Sam D.

2002-08-24, 11:28 pm

> > You can't expect to come into an industry with 6 weeks or 6 months of
> > classroom experience and expect to start making big money. The same
holds

> > true for a college degree. It's an entry point. No more, no less. It
shows

> > you have the ability to learn. What happens next is totally up to you
and
> > how you apply yourself to your job. Certs and degrees are wonderful for
at
> > least getting your foot in the door, but don't expect more than that.
You
> > still have to prove yourself.
>
> True, but the MCSE should be identifying you as an expert....not a
trainee.
> Let the MCP and MCSA be the training certs.

I agree, but who's fault is that? I believe it's Microsofts. If Microsoft
wants experts in their products, they should design their tests differently.
Apparently they don't care. The more MCSE's the merrier.Controversy is good
publicity, I guess .

> > I like Microsoft and their products. They're not perfect, but who is,
i.e.
> > Enron, WorldCom, AT&T. I'm studying for my MCSE with little experience.
I
> do
> > believe Microsoft has helped cheapen the MCSE by making it so easy to
> > obtain. But, I hold no illusions of six figure incomes until I have
about
> 8
> > to 10 years under my belt. I love this stuff. It's great fun, but hard
> work.
> > Like anything else, if you love what you do, the money will come. If
not,
> > the industry will weed you out ;-)
>
> Sounds like you're getting in with the right attitude. Again, since the
> MCSE is so easy to get, it doesn't help employers "weed out" anybody. It
> costs a lot to go through the hiring process, and then find out that the
> individual you chose is a complete newbie who can pass a test. Most MCSEs
> are not competing for entry or mid level positions....they go straight for
> the top ones. Unfortunately, there aren't that many of them who are
> qualified...and employers find themselves with the increasingly difficult
> task of finding the ones who are (especially when they all look the same
on
> paper). There is nothing in the Microsoft world that separates true
experts
> from good test takers....

I haven't been in the IT market for a couple of years now, but I find it
hard to believe that a IT director or systems admn with years of experience
is going to hire a paper cert right out the box and place them in a position
they are sure to fail in. Is or was the market that desparate? From what I
see today, its pretty slim pickins' out there. Lots of workers and no work,
specifically IT jobs. Or maybe there're jobs, but not the flashy jobs MCSE's
think they deserve. Anyway, I'm looking forward to joining the IT work force
in a couple of months here in Chicago. I feel confident I'll find a job,
maybe not the top, but it will be the first rung on the ladder...

Uncle_Albert

2002-08-24, 11:28 pm

"Sam D." <1234@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news

VY99.171168$me6.21489@sccrnsc01...
>
> > > You can't expect to come into an industry with 6 weeks or 6 months of
> > > classroom experience and expect to start making big money. The same
> holds
> > > true for a college degree. It's an entry point. No more, no less. It
> shows
> > > you have the ability to learn. What happens next is totally up to you
> and
> > > how you apply yourself to your job. Certs and degrees are wonderful
for
> at

> > > least getting your foot in the door, but don't expect more than that.
> You
> > > still have to prove yourself.
> >
> > True, but the MCSE should be identifying you as an expert....not a
> trainee.
> > Let the MCP and MCSA be the training certs.
>
> I agree, but who's fault is that? I believe it's Microsofts. If Microsoft
> wants experts in their products, they should design their tests
differently.
> Apparently they don't care. The more MCSE's the merrier.Controversy is
good
> publicity, I guess .
>
> > > I like Microsoft and their products. They're not perfect, but who is,
> i.e.
> > > Enron, WorldCom, AT&T. I'm studying for my MCSE with little
experience.
> I
> > do
> > > believe Microsoft has helped cheapen the MCSE by making it so easy to
> > > obtain. But, I hold no illusions of six figure incomes until I have
> about
> > 8
> > > to 10 years under my belt. I love this stuff. It's great fun, but hard
> > work.
> > > Like anything else, if you love what you do, the money will come. If
> not,
> > > the industry will weed you out ;-)
> >
> > Sounds like you're getting in with the right attitude. Again, since the
> > MCSE is so easy to get, it doesn't help employers "weed out" anybody.
It
> > costs a lot to go through the hiring process, and then find out that the
> > individual you chose is a complete newbie who can pass a test. Most
MCSEs

> > are not competing for entry or mid level positions....they go straight
for
> > the top ones. Unfortunately, there aren't that many of them who are
> > qualified...and employers find themselves with the increasingly
difficult
> > task of finding the ones who are (especially when they all look the same
> on
> > paper). There is nothing in the Microsoft world that separates true
> experts
> > from good test takers....
>
> I haven't been in the IT market for a couple of years now, but I find it
> hard to believe that a IT director or systems admn with years of
experience
> is going to hire a paper cert right out the box and place them in a
position
> they are sure to fail in. Is or was the market that desparate? From what I
> see today, its pretty slim pickins' out there. Lots of workers and no
work,
> specifically IT jobs. Or maybe there're jobs, but not the flashy jobs
MCSE's
> think they deserve. Anyway, I'm looking forward to joining the IT work
force
> in a couple of months here in Chicago. I feel confident I'll find a job,
> maybe not the top, but it will be the first rung on the ladder...
>
>
dont be too confident

Sam D.

2002-08-25, 12:29 am

Uncle_Albert

2002-08-25, 12:29 am

"Sam D." <1234@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news

Trekk

2002-08-25, 12:29 am

I agree with you Bob

I also am taking my MCDBA; I have 6 years experience as a network admin but
not much database management. I don't think it would be fair to look for a
position as a DBA until I get the necessary experience in TSQL and Visual
Basic coding. Too many people walking off the street with paper certs with
no experience to back it up

"DenverBob" <bob@denver.net> wrote in message
news:dV799.3401$wj.1105998@news.uswest.net...
> Recently, a bunch of people have jumped on their soap boxes here, so I
guess
> it's my turn now. I've been in this business about 20 years. I've seen
the
> trends come and go. The current market situation in IT was fairly
> predictable. IMHO, anyone who was caught by surprise at the recent IT
> downturn is an ignorant fool. Most of the experienced IT people watched
in
> amazement as Venture Capitalists threw tons of money into illusionary
> companies...and wondered when it was all going to finally come crashing
down
> with an enormous "thud". Needless to say, the "thud" has happened. To
all
> the optimists out there...forget about any significant change for at least
> 12 to 18 months. When all the unemployment checks run out, and all the
> bandwagon jumpers are forced into finding alternate employment for the
sake
> of survival, we'll see a small (but controlled) upturn. You can also
forget
> about any illusions of another IT feeding frenzy for at least the next 5
> years. The "Goldrush" is over. People have been burned, and they won't
> forget too quickly. For those of us who are lifers in this business...we
> just need to ride it out like we always do. This is the third time for
me.
> I feel badly for the "real" IT people who were caught in the wake of this
> crash. It has hit us all to some degree (I've cut my rates drastically
just
> to stay around with my existing clients). For the newbies....welcome to
IT
> (I'll bet they didn't teach you this in boot camp, did they?). For the
old
> IT folks....Here we go again.
>
> The MCSE won't hurt you....but don't have any illusions about it being
your
> golden ticket either. Until Microsoft takes the necessary steps to make
it
> more credible, you'll find it losing it's worth faster that you can say
> "braindump". I'm a recent W2K MCSE, and it has helped me with some new
> prospects....but the experience was the KEY factor. Employers are getting
> much wiser, and soon the MCSE won't be worth the paper it's written on
> unless you have the rest of the package (experience, degree, ect.) to back
> it up. Same goes for many other certs out there. I love the paper
> collectors on this NG...running around with the illusion that the more
certs
> you have after your name, the more opportunities you'll get. Have fun in
> la-la land. You're scaring off more people than you're attracting. If
your
> certs, degree, and experience don't compliment one another, you're hurting
> yourself. Pick a career already, and stop trying to be a certification
> poster child.
>
> Personally, I'd love to see Microsoft make the MCSE as difficult to get as
a
> CCIE. It should involve a practical exam, and VERIFYABLE experience of at
> least 2 years in the field. I know it'll never happen, but it doesn't
hurt
> to wish. They could keep the lower level certs in place (MCP/MCSA) for
the
> works in progress. Unfortunately, Microsoft is very profit
oriented....and
> wannabes spend a lot of money on certifications these days. I also think
> that there should be a reasonable "de-certification" process. Hey, if
> someone shows up on a job and can't perform tasks which an MCSE should be
> able to perform...then I think employers should have the right to
challenge
> that certification. If the person can't pass the the challenge, they
should
> be de-certified! I think this would go a long way toward killing off the
> braindumps and bootcamps. And what's wrong with a recertification every
two
> years! If you're a real IT professional, it should be easy.
>
> I've got one test remaining for my MCDBA. I'm getting that cert because
it
> is completely relevent to my specialty (data driven web architecture -
> highly available clustering solutions). I may also pursue some
lightweight
> certs in Sun and Cisco (again, relevent to what I do). I probably won't
sit
> my one remaining exam for the MCDBA for at least another 2 months
(70-229).
> Why? Because I won't have an MCDBA until I feel I'm ready for it....and I
> don't have T-SQL coding down well enough yet to consider MYSELF
proficient.
> I know I could cram for, and pass that test in 2 weeks...but I won't do it
> until I've earned it. I will be proficient in T-SQL when I sit that
> exam...and I'll be just as proficient on the job.
>
> Yeah, I know I'll probably get flamed mecilessly for this "War and Peace"
> rant, but I know alot of others are thinking exactly the same thing. I
have
> nothing at all against anyone getting into this business. They just need
to
> know what it's really about...and not what they heard on some late night
> infomercial. You need to be ready to do the time....just like every other
> career out there. Quit chasing the quick money...it's all gone, and it
> ain't gonna be back for quite some time.
>
> DenverBob
>
>

Trekk

2002-08-25, 1:29 am

Eric Yeoh

2002-08-25, 1:29 am

Hi DenverBob,

You are right.

I have 7 years of experience in IT and I guess I am a "lifer" as you would
call it.

The Barindumpers out there make me look like fool and fraud. Whenever I tell
someone I am a MCSE people will automatically assume I have zero hands on
and passed with great help from Braindumps.

Sometimes I wonder should I continue to do MCSE .NET or just switch to
something more difficult to cheat like CCIE or RHCE.

Certification is supposed to make us IT guys more valuable but it seems that
some people out there think getting more valuable does not necessary require
hard work and diligence.

Bravo for being so straight forward.

ERIC

"DenverBob" <bob@denver.net> wrote in message
news:dV799.3401$wj.1105998@news.uswest.net...
> Recently, a bunch of people have jumped on their soap boxes here, so I
guess
> it's my turn now. I've been in this business about 20 years. I've seen
the
> trends come and go. The current market situation in IT was fairly
> predictable. IMHO, anyone who was caught by surprise at the recent IT
> downturn is an ignorant fool. Most of the experienced IT people watched
in
> amazement as Venture Capitalists threw tons of money into illusionary
> companies...and wondered when it was all going to finally come crashing
down
> with an enormous "thud". Needless to say, the "thud" has happened. To
all
> the optimists out there...forget about any significant change for at least
> 12 to 18 months. When all the unemployment checks run out, and all the
> bandwagon jumpers are forced into finding alternate employment for the
sake
> of survival, we'll see a small (but controlled) upturn. You can also
forget
> about any illusions of another IT feeding frenzy for at least the next 5
> years. The "Goldrush" is over. People have been burned, and they won't
> forget too quickly. For those of us who are lifers in this business...we
> just need to ride it out like we always do. This is the third time for
me.
> I feel badly for the "real" IT people who were caught in the wake of this
> crash. It has hit us all to some degree (I've cut my rates drastically
just
> to stay around with my existing clients). For the newbies....welcome to
IT
> (I'll bet they didn't teach you this in boot camp, did they?). For the
old
> IT folks....Here we go again.
>
> The MCSE won't hurt you....but don't have any illusions about it being
your
> golden ticket either. Until Microsoft takes the necessary steps to make
it
> more credible, you'll find it losing it's worth faster that you can say
> "braindump". I'm a recent W2K MCSE, and it has helped me with some new
> prospects....but the experience was the KEY factor. Employers are getting
> much wiser, and soon the MCSE won't be worth the paper it's written on
> unless you have the rest of the package (experience, degree, ect.) to back
> it up. Same goes for many other certs out there. I love the paper
> collectors on this NG...running around with the illusion that the more
certs
> you have after your name, the more opportunities you'll get. Have fun in
> la-la land. You're scaring off more people than you're attracting. If
your
> certs, degree, and experience don't compliment one another, you're hurting
> yourself. Pick a career already, and stop trying to be a certification
> poster child.
>
> Personally, I'd love to see Microsoft make the MCSE as difficult to get as
a
> CCIE. It should involve a practical exam, and VERIFYABLE experience of at
> least 2 years in the field. I know it'll never happen, but it doesn't
hurt
> to wish. They could keep the lower level certs in place (MCP/MCSA) for
the
> works in progress. Unfortunately, Microsoft is very profit
oriented....and
> wannabes spend a lot of money on certifications these days. I also think
> that there should be a reasonable "de-certification" process. Hey, if
> someone shows up on a job and can't perform tasks which an MCSE should be
> able to perform...then I think employers should have the right to
challenge
> that certification. If the person can't pass the the challenge, they
should
> be de-certified! I think this would go a long way toward killing off the
> braindumps and bootcamps. And what's wrong with a recertification every
two
> years! If you're a real IT professional, it should be easy.
>
> I've got one test remaining for my MCDBA. I'm getting that cert because
it
> is completely relevent to my specialty (data driven web architecture -
> highly available clustering solutions). I may also pursue some
lightweight
> certs in Sun and Cisco (again, relevent to what I do). I probably won't
sit
> my one remaining exam for the MCDBA for at least another 2 months
(70-229).
> Why? Because I won't have an MCDBA until I feel I'm ready for it....and I
> don't have T-SQL coding down well enough yet to consider MYSELF
proficient.
> I know I could cram for, and pass that test in 2 weeks...but I won't do it
> until I've earned it. I will be proficient in T-SQL when I sit that
> exam...and I'll be just as proficient on the job.
>
> Yeah, I know I'll probably get flamed mecilessly for this "War and Peace"
> rant, but I know alot of others are thinking exactly the same thing. I
have
> nothing at all against anyone getting into this business. They just need
to
> know what it's really about...and not what they heard on some late night
> infomercial. You need to be ready to do the time....just like every other
> career out there. Quit chasing the quick money...it's all gone, and it
> ain't gonna be back for quite some time.
>
> DenverBob
>
>

Eric Yeoh

2002-08-25, 2:29 am

Sam D.

2002-08-25, 10:29 am

Why not?

"Uncle_Albert" <Me@home.com> wrote in message
news:edZ99.8023$aU3.1176280@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "Sam D." <1234@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news

VY99.171168$me6.21489@sccrnsc01...
> >
> > > > You can't expect to come into an industry with 6 weeks or 6 months
of[co
lor=darkred]
> > > > classroom experience and expect to start making big money. The same
> > holds
> > > > true for a college degree. It's an entry point. No more, no less. It
> > shows
> > > > you have the ability to learn. What happens next is totally up to[/color]
you
> > and
> > > > how you apply yourself to your job. Certs and degrees are wonderful
> for
> > at
> > > > least getting your foot in the door, but don't expect more than
that.
> > You
> > > > still have to prove yourself.
> > >
> > > True, but the MCSE should be identifying you as an expert....not a
> > trainee.
> > > Let the MCP and MCSA be the training certs.
> >
> > I agree, but who's fault is that? I believe it's Microsofts. If
Microsoft
> > wants experts in their products, they should design their tests
> differently.
> > Apparently they don't care. The more MCSE's the merrier.Controversy is
> good
> > publicity, I guess .
> >
> > > > I like Microsoft and their products. They're not perfect, but who
is,
> > i.e.
> > > > Enron, WorldCom, AT&T. I'm studying for my MCSE with little
> experience.
> > I
> > > do
> > > > believe Microsoft has helped cheapen the MCSE by making it so easy
to[co
lor=darkred]
> > > > obtain. But, I hold no illusions of six figure incomes until I have
> > about
> > > 8
> > > > to 10 years under my belt. I love this stuff. It's great fun, but[/color]
hard[
color=darkred]
> > > work.
> > > > Like anything else, if you love what you do, the money will come. If
> > not,
> > > > the industry will weed you out ;-)
> > >
> > > Sounds like you're getting in with the right attitude. Again, since[/color]
the[c
olor=darkred]
> > > MCSE is so easy to get, it doesn't help employers "weed out" anybody.
> It

> > > costs a lot to go through the hiring process, and then find out that[/color]
the[c
olor=darkred]
> > > individual you chose is a complete newbie who can pass a test. Most
> MCSEs
> > > are not competing for entry or mid level positions....they go straight
> for
> > > the top ones. Unfortunately, there aren't that many of them who are
> > > qualified...and employers find themselves with the increasingly
> difficult
> > > task of finding the ones who are (especially when they all look the[/color]
same
> > on
> > > paper). There is nothing in the Microsoft world that separates true
> > experts
> > > from good test takers....
> >
> > I haven't been in the IT market for a couple of years now, but I find it
> > hard to believe that a IT director or systems admn with years of
> experience
> > is going to hire a paper cert right out the box and place them in a
> position
> > they are sure to fail in. Is or was the market that desparate? From what
I
> > see today, its pretty slim pickins' out there. Lots of workers and no
> work,
> > specifically IT jobs. Or maybe there're jobs, but not the flashy jobs
> MCSE's
> > think they deserve. Anyway, I'm looking forward to joining the IT work
> force
> > in a couple of months here in Chicago. I feel confident I'll find a job,
> > maybe not the top, but it will be the first rung on the ladder...
> >
> >
> dont be too confident
>
>
>
>

DenverBob

2002-08-25, 10:29 am

Thanks Eric,

I think the CCIE or RHCE would definitely augment your MCSE. I've thought
about the RHCE myself, as I do a lot of work with Apache web servers in
clusters using Red Hat. I can't see myself going for the CCIE,
however...because I seldom get to do any extensive router work. A CCNA
would probably be fine for me (just to let people know that I can recognize
a router when I walk past it in a server room, and do some basic
troubleshooting until the network team arrives). Red Hat definitely has the
certification concept set up properly (IMHO) with a practical exam. The
only real difference of opinion that I have with them is that I prefer
self-study....and they really push you to attend their training (at a
substantial cost). I'll consider it after my MCDBA is done. One thing is
for sure, though...I don't know any phoney CCIEs or RHCEs. Every one I've
met has been VERY sharp. I wish I could say that for MCSEs.

DenverBob

"Eric Yeoh" <yeoheric@time.net.my> wrote in message
news:3d6883ae_2@news.tm.net.my...
> Hi DenverBob,
>
> You are right.
>
> I have 7 years of experience in IT and I guess I am a "lifer" as you would
> call it.
>
> The Barindumpers out there make me look like fool and fraud. Whenever I
tell
> someone I am a MCSE people will automatically assume I have zero hands on
> and passed with great help from Braindumps.
>
> Sometimes I wonder should I continue to do MCSE .NET or just switch to
> something more difficult to cheat like CCIE or RHCE.
>
> Certification is supposed to make us IT guys more valuable but it seems
that
> some people out there think getting more valuable does not necessary
require
> hard work and diligence.
>
> Bravo for being so straight forward.
>
> ERIC

DenverBob

2002-08-25, 10:29 am

I agree 100%. My goal for my MCDBA is not the cert....it's the skill. I
work with VB/SQL/Oracle/.NET developers every day, and I wouldn't insult
them by trying to put myself on their level (most are MCDBAs) until I'm
ready. Many of them have tried to get me to move from the engineering side
to the programming side, but it's simply not what I want to do. I like
being an engineer. Always have. I do, however, like to be on the same page
with my development teams, and in order to do that, I need to understand
what they are doing. Most of the developers I work with couldn't build a
decent server if you held a gun to their heads. I certainly know that I
couldn't build the kinds of web sites that these guys churn out with
relative ease. I simply want to have the skillset to tune the systems
and/or code around the project at hand. I'll be a better engineer with the
knowledge of an MCDBA. I don't know that I'll ever pursue a career as a
pure DBA, but I do know that I won't be an MCDBA until I know that I have
the knowledge level necessary to be one.

DenverBob

"Trekk" <kwilson1@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:3d686d06$0$1430$2c3e98f8@
news.voyager.net...
> I agree with you Bob
>
> I also am taking my MCDBA; I have 6 years experience as a network admin
but
> not much database management. I don't think it would be fair to look for a
> position as a DBA until I get the necessary experience in TSQL and Visual
> Basic coding. Too many people walking off the street with paper certs with
> no experience to back it up
>

Sam D.

2002-08-25, 11:29 am

Why not?

"Uncle_Albert" <Me@home.com> wrote in message
news:edZ99.8023$aU3.1176280@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
>
> "Sam D." <1234@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news

DenverBob

2002-08-25, 11:29 am