alt.os.linux - KDE and GNOME vs other wms

Author

KDE and GNOME vs other wms

mat

2002-09-18, 6:29 am

After trying out both KDE and GNOME for a while I've decided to opt
for one of the other windowmanagers as they seem less laden. What I
am wondering is to what extent I can use the KDE and GNOME apps
within, say, blackbox. Konqueror seems to work fine, although it
keeps the theme options of when I was fiddling with KDE, but when I
start nautilus (am I correct in thinking this is a GNOME app?) it
somewhat takes over the desktop, changing my background, adding icons
etc. I realise this is as might be expected, but if I install apps
such as openoffice will they take their theme/display options from KDE
or GNOME or will they only respond to the current wm? i.e. is it only
the apps within the KDE/gnome bundles that are likely to cause problem
when run under other windowmanagers?

As a more general point, to KDE/GNOME provide any greater
functionality over simpler tools or is it really a project to make
linux more intuitive more like, dare I say it, windows.

4Space

2002-09-18, 6:29 am

I'm on the way to doing the same thing. I'm going for just plain X, plus the
KDE and Gnome libraries, plus blackbox.

So I'd be interested to know how this is going to work.

4Space

"mat" <mats_trash@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43525ce3.0209180225.5d01e744@posting.google.com...
> After trying out both KDE and GNOME for a while I've decided to opt
> for one of the other windowmanagers as they seem less laden. What I
> am wondering is to what extent I can use the KDE and GNOME apps
> within, say, blackbox. Konqueror seems to work fine, although it
> keeps the theme options of when I was fiddling with KDE, but when I
> start nautilus (am I correct in thinking this is a GNOME app?) it
> somewhat takes over the desktop, changing my background, adding icons
> etc. I realise this is as might be expected, but if I install apps
> such as openoffice will they take their theme/display options from KDE
> or GNOME or will they only respond to the current wm? i.e. is it only
> the apps within the KDE/gnome bundles that are likely to cause problem
> when run under other windowmanagers?
>
> As a more general point, to KDE/GNOME provide any greater
> functionality over simpler tools or is it really a project to make
> linux more intuitive more like, dare I say it, windows.

Andy

2002-09-18, 6:29 am

It works with fluxbox

though loading a GTK program is fine KDE stuff
seems to feel like a fish out of water but works.

Andy

"4Space" <4space@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3d8859d4$0$8510$ed9e5944@
reading.news.pipex.net...
> I'm on the way to doing the same thing. I'm going for just plain X, plus
the
> KDE and Gnome libraries, plus blackbox.
>
> So I'd be interested to know how this is going to work.
>
> 4Space
>
> "mat" <mats_trash@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:43525ce3.0209180225.5d01e744@posting.google.com...
> > After trying out both KDE and GNOME for a while I've decided to opt
> > for one of the other windowmanagers as they seem less laden. What I
> > am wondering is to what extent I can use the KDE and GNOME apps
> > within, say, blackbox. Konqueror seems to work fine, although it
> > keeps the theme options of when I was fiddling with KDE, but when I
> > start nautilus (am I correct in thinking this is a GNOME app?) it
> > somewhat takes over the desktop, changing my background, adding icons
> > etc. I realise this is as might be expected, but if I install apps
> > such as openoffice will they take their theme/display options from KDE
> > or GNOME or will they only respond to the current wm? i.e. is it only
> > the apps within the KDE/gnome bundles that are likely to cause problem
> > when run under other windowmanagers?
> >
> > As a more general point, to KDE/GNOME provide any greater
> > functionality over simpler tools or is it really a project to make
> > linux more intuitive more like, dare I say it, windows.
>
>

mjt

2002-09-18, 9:29 am

mat wrote:

> After trying out both KDE and GNOME for a while I've decided to opt
> for one of the other windowmanagers as they seem less laden.

gnome and kde are 'desktop environments', not 'window managers';
however, it should be noted that there IS an underlying window
manager being used.

> What I am wondering is to what extent I can use the KDE and GNOME apps
> within, say, blackbox. Konqueror seems to work fine, although it
> keeps the theme options of when I was fiddling with KDE, but when I
> start nautilus (am I correct in thinking this is a GNOME app?) it
> somewhat takes over the desktop, changing my background, adding icons
> etc.

modify its menu entry command line and add: "--no-desktop". there
is also a setting in nautilus to turn this annoying 'feature' off.

> I realise this is as might be expected, but if I install apps
> such as openoffice will they take their theme/display options from KDE
> or GNOME or will they only respond to the current wm? i.e. is it only
> the apps within the KDE/gnome bundles that are likely to cause problem
> when run under other windowmanagers?

depends on the application/utility

> As a more general point, to KDE/GNOME provide any greater
> functionality over simpler tools or is it really a project to make
> linux more intuitive more like, dare I say it, windows.

they are desktop environments - which in most cases allows apps
written for that desktop to communicate together and the utilities
provided are more tightly integrated to the underlying Linux
utilities.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
Michael J. Tobler: motorcyclist, surfer, # Black holes result
skydiver, and author: "Inside Linux", # when God divides the
"C++ HowTo", "C++ Unleashed" # universe by zero

mjt

2002-09-18, 10:29 am

Paul

2002-09-18, 10:29 am

mats_trash@hotmail.com (mat) wrote in message news:<43525ce3.0209180225.5d01e744@posting.google.com>...
<snip>
> As a more general point, to KDE/GNOME provide any greater
> functionality over simpler tools or is it really a project to make
> linux more intuitive more like, dare I say it, windows.

I dont think it is a wrong assumption to think the major desktop apps
are trying to be an easy transition from windows. Nice thing is it is
just a desktop and not an intergal part of the os. You can choose as
you wish. I use KDE on my pc's but that is because the are fast with
lots of memory. It has a lot of flexibility and yet I can use an xterm
and do things quick and easy. Instead of using Kpackage or Kmail I
tend to use command line and pine with getmail. So there lots of
options but the best thing is that you can take someone from windows
and have them working on KDE or Gnome(i dont use Gnome) farily easily.

Personally for a quiet environment I use Blackbox and if I do need a
gui file manager or anything else I can fire up Tkdesk. So lots of
choice out there and that is the joy of Linux.

Good Luck
Paul

Paul

2002-09-18, 11:29 am

muppet

2002-09-18, 5:29 pm

> After trying out both KDE and GNOME for a while I've decided to opt
> for one of the other windowmanagers as they seem less laden. What I
> am wondering is to what extent I can use the KDE and GNOME apps
> within, say, blackbox.

Essentially if the GNOME/KDE libraries are available (installed) then any
GNOME/KDE apps should work whatever window manager is running. But then you
will have disk space taken up with the libraries.

Remember GNOME/KDE are not window managers, they are "desktop environments"
that have default window managers included (KDE uses kwm by default, I think
GNOME uses enlightenment).

> Konqueror seems to work fine, although it
> keeps the theme options of when I was fiddling with KDE, but when I
> start nautilus (am I correct in thinking this is a GNOME app?) it
> somewhat takes over the desktop, changing my background, adding icons
> etc.

The GNOME/KDE apps will read their respective configuration settings so
you'll probably see the apps as they would look if you were running the WM
they were expecting. You should be able to tweak the config settings for
GNOME/KDE so that the apps look more like what you expect.

> I realise this is as might be expected, but if I install apps
> such as openoffice will they take their theme/display options from KDE
> or GNOME or will they only respond to the current wm?

It depends to a large amount how the app was written. I would expect the
larger commercial apps to take their look and feel from whichever WM is
running. Some of the desktop applications like Nautilus and Konqueror are
intended for use with their respective environments, so may behave slightly
oddly in a different environment.

For example (KDE1) if you use "kfmclient" to start an "explorer" like
window, it will start the kfm background process if there isn't one running,
causing a set of desktop icons to appear on the screen. This will look odd
if you already had desktop icons from your WM.

> i.e. is it only
> the apps within the KDE/gnome bundles that are likely to cause problem
> when run under other windowmanagers?

A number of apps are written to use these libraries, but as long as the
libraries are available and X is available, then the apps should run, they
just might run a bit oddly if they are expecting a different environment
from what they get.

> As a more general point, to KDE/GNOME provide any greater
> functionality over simpler tools or is it really a project to make
> linux more intuitive more like, dare I say it, windows.

That's a good point to argue, but I think both projects would agree that
they are trying to make life easier for people converting to Linux.

HTH.

muppet

2002-09-18, 6:28 pm

Nix

2002-09-19, 12:29 am

When I tried installing Red Hat Linux on my old PC like the trend was for a
while, it would quit the installation even before I could select the
components saying that the 16MB RAM that I had was not enough. Now, Windows
95 and 98 run perfectly with 16MB RAM and with Opera(IE makes it a drag
because it writes excessively to the hard disk) but Linux seems to be the
powerhog in this area.

Anyone know of where I can get a mini-RedHat Linux with a simple GUI(I don't
specifically NEED Gnome or KDE - just about anything that has the G-U-I of
GUI will do) ;-)

-Nix

"4Space" <4space@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3d8859d4$0$8510$ed9e5944@
reading.news.pipex.net...
> I'm on the way to doing the same thing. I'm going for just plain X, plus
the
> KDE and Gnome libraries, plus blackbox.
>
> So I'd be interested to know how this is going to work.
>
> 4Space
>
> "mat" <mats_trash@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:43525ce3.0209180225.5d01e744@posting.google.com...
> > After trying out both KDE and GNOME for a while I've decided to opt
> > for one of the other windowmanagers as they seem less laden. What I
> > am wondering is to what extent I can use the KDE and GNOME apps
> > within, say, blackbox. Konqueror seems to work fine, although it
> > keeps the theme options of when I was fiddling with KDE, but when I
> > start nautilus (am I correct in thinking this is a GNOME app?) it
> > somewhat takes over the desktop, changing my background, adding icons
> > etc. I realise this is as might be expected, but if I install apps
> > such as openoffice will they take their theme/display options from KDE
> > or GNOME or will they only respond to the current wm? i.e. is it only
> > the apps within the KDE/gnome bundles that are likely to cause problem
> > when run under other windowmanagers?
> >
> > As a more general point, to KDE/GNOME provide any greater
> > functionality over simpler tools or is it really a project to make
> > linux more intuitive more like, dare I say it, windows.
>
>

Nix

2002-09-19, 1:30 am

mat

2002-09-19, 5:28 am

further to the last post - if I do delete GNOME itself but retain the
GTK libraries to run GTK but non-GNOME programs can anyone point me to
the config files that seeminlgy govern the appearance of all GTK
programs, whether specifically for GNOME or not. I suppose what would
be most useful is a small app that can change themes etc for GTK
programs.

cheers

mat

2002-09-19, 6:28 am

Andy

2002-09-19, 7:29 am

"Nix" <kid1983@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ambp0p$buc4@news.emirates.net.ae...
> When I tried installing Red Hat Linux on my old PC like the trend was for
a
> while, it would quit the installation even before I could select the
> components saying that the 16MB RAM that I had was not enough. Now,
Windows
> 95 and 98 run perfectly with 16MB RAM and with Opera(IE makes it a drag
> because it writes excessively to the hard disk) but Linux seems to be the
> powerhog in this area.
>
> Anyone know of where I can get a mini-RedHat Linux with a simple GUI(I
don't
> specifically NEED Gnome or KDE - just about anything that has the G-U-I of
> GUI will do) ;-)
>
> -Nix
>
>
> "4Space" <4space@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:3d8859d4$0$8510$ed9e5944@
reading.news.pipex.net...
> > I'm on the way to doing the same thing. I'm going for just plain X, plus
> the
> > KDE and Gnome libraries, plus blackbox.
> >
> > So I'd be interested to know how this is going to work.
> >
> > 4Space
> >
> > "mat" <mats_trash@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:43525ce3.0209180225.5d01e744@posting.google.com...
> > > After trying out both KDE and GNOME for a while I've decided to opt
> > > for one of the other windowmanagers as they seem less laden. What I
> > > am wondering is to what extent I can use the KDE and GNOME apps
> > > within, say, blackbox. Konqueror seems to work fine, although it
> > > keeps the theme options of when I was fiddling with KDE, but when I
> > > start nautilus (am I correct in thinking this is a GNOME app?) it
> > > somewhat takes over the desktop, changing my background, adding icons
> > > etc. I realise this is as might be expected, but if I install apps
> > > such as openoffice will they take their theme/display options from KDE
> > > or GNOME or will they only respond to the current wm? i.e. is it only
> > > the apps within the KDE/gnome bundles that are likely to cause problem
> > > when run under other windowmanagers?
> > >
> > > As a more general point, to KDE/GNOME provide any greater
> > > functionality over simpler tools or is it really a project to make
> > > linux more intuitive more like, dare I say it, windows.
> >
> >
>
>

This is becuase of who red hat aims at.

Try debian, its not as hard as people make out.

Andy

Andy

2002-09-19, 8:29 am

Joel Rosenberg

2002-09-19, 8:29 am

"Nix" <kid1983@yahoo.com> writes:

> When I tried installing Red Hat Linux on my old PC like the trend was for a
> while, it would quit the installation even before I could select the
> components saying that the 16MB RAM that I had was not enough. Now, Windows
> 95 and 98 run perfectly with 16MB RAM and with Opera(IE makes it a drag
> because it writes excessively to the hard disk) but Linux seems to be the
> powerhog in this area.
>
> Anyone know of where I can get a mini-RedHat Linux with a simple GUI(I don't
> specifically NEED Gnome or KDE - just about anything that has the G-U-I of
> GUI will do) ;-)
>
> -Nix
>

I don't know about Redhat, but Mandrake comes with blackbox, which is
much lighter, and less demanding, and perfectly usable. Failing that,
why not just get the source from Sourceforge.net and compile/install?

--
Years ago, airlines used to offer "smoking" and "non-smoking"
flights. It would be interesting to see what would happen if airlines
began offering "armed" and "unarmed flights." Which planes do you
think that would-be hijackers would prefer to take?
-- Dave Kopel
------------------------------------------------------------
http://islamthereligionofpeace.blogspot.com

Joel Rosenberg

2002-09-19, 9:29 am

Hal Burgiss

2002-09-19, 9:29 am

On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:22:48 +0400, Nix <kid1983@yahoo.com> wrote:
> components saying that the 16MB RAM that I had was not enough. Now, Windows
> 95 and 98 run perfectly with 16MB RAM and with Opera(IE makes it a drag
> because it writes excessively to the hard disk) but Linux seems to be the
> powerhog in this area.

Hey, well go back to RH5.0, that is probably comparable timewise to
win98. Conversely, try running IE6 in 16M.

The GUI intaller (Anaconda) has a hardcoded 32M limit. I don't know if
you do a text install, it doesn't look at this or not. Try it and see.
Once past the installer, you can run anything you want that fits in 16M.
I wouldn't even think of trying GNOME, KDE, Mozilla, etc though. They
weren't written to be backwardly compatible with old hardware.

--
Hal Burgiss

Hal Burgiss

2002-09-19, 10:28 am

Kevin Croxen

2002-09-19, 10:29 am

In article <m2elbqm6on.fsf@ellegon.com>, Joel Rosenberg wrote:
>"Nix" <kid1983@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> When I tried installing Red Hat Linux on my old PC like the trend was for a
>> while, it would quit the installation even before I could select the
>> components saying that the 16MB RAM that I had was not enough. Now, Windows
>> 95 and 98 run perfectly with 16MB RAM and with Opera(IE makes it a drag
>> because it writes excessively to the hard disk) but Linux seems to be the
>> powerhog in this area.
>>
>> Anyone know of where I can get a mini-RedHat Linux with a simple GUI(I don't
>> specifically NEED Gnome or KDE - just about anything that has the G-U-I of
>> GUI will do) ;-)
>>
>> -Nix
>>
>
>I don't know about Redhat, but Mandrake comes with blackbox, which is
>much lighter, and less demanding, and perfectly usable. Failing that,
>why not just get the source from Sourceforge.net and compile/install?
>
>--

Peanut Linux is RH based.

However, you might be happier using a full-scale distribution that simply
avoids having a big, overblown memory-eating graphical uberconfigurator
utility. You can easily install up-to-the-minute Slackware 8.1, but use
the lighter wm it supplies (fvwm) in preference to KDE and Gnome (which it
also supplies). If you have an occasional Gnome or KDE app you need to
run, just install the libraries; you don't specifically need Gnome or KDE
to run their apps.

You can also do something similar with Debian.

--Kevin

Kevin Croxen

2002-09-19, 11:29 am

Steve Ackman

2002-09-20, 9:29 pm

On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:22:48 +0400, Nix <kid1983@yahoo.com> wrote:
> When I tried installing Red Hat Linux on my old PC like the trend was for a
> while, it would quit the installation even before I could select the
> components saying that the 16MB RAM that I had was not enough.

I had RH 4.1 (with fvwm2 and Netscape 3.01) in 8MB RAM;
It swapped a lot. Once I upgraded to 16MB, it zoomed.

RH 5.1 (with fvwm2 and Netscape 4.08) in 24MB RAM.
Just recently I put RH 6.2 on a 486VLB-66 with 20MB RAM.
Works fine. fvwm2 with the Lesstif look of AnotherLevel.
No KDE or Gnome.
Then again, I don't even have a DE on my 1.5 Mhz 256MB
machine. As far as I'm concerned, DEs are a waste of
resources that don't give any benefit at all.
xterm is the best thing about a GUI! ;-)

> Now, Windows
> 95 and 98 run perfectly with 16MB RAM and with Opera(IE makes it a drag
> because it writes excessively to the hard disk) but Linux seems to be the
> powerhog in this area.

Nope. It's your Desktop Environments that are the
resource hogs.

> Anyone know of where I can get a mini-RedHat Linux with a simple GUI(I don't
> specifically NEED Gnome or KDE - just about anything that has the G-U-I of
> GUI will do) ;-)

Just install RH 6.2 without Gnome or KDE. Matter of
fact you don't even actually need a window manager for
GUI. Run AbiWord (for instance) directly in X without
any window manager:

From the console, do
$ xinit $(which AbiWord)

When you're done, click the File -> Exit options in
AbiWord, and by killing off the X app, you drop back
to the console.

If you need multiple X apps running, while in the
first (number zero), hit Ctrl-Alt-F2 and login there.
Then do
$ xinit $(which netscape) -- :1

(displays are typically :0 through :5, though you can
actually use any number not already used)

Consoles are F1-F6, X apps are F7-F12.

Lather, rinse, repeat...

--
Steve Ackman
http://twoloonscoffee.com (Need green beans?)
http://twovoyagers.com (glass, linux & other stuff)

Steve Ackman

2002-09-20, 10:28 pm

Dennis Katsonis

2002-10-12, 10:24 pm

mat wrote:
> further to the last post - if I do delete GNOME itself but retain the
> GTK libraries to run GTK but non-GNOME programs can anyone point me to
> the config files that seeminlgy govern the appearance of all GTK
> programs, whether specifically for GNOME or not. I suppose what would
> be most useful is a small app that can change themes etc for GTK
> programs.
>
> cheers

XFce is the best fully featured but still small window manager I've seen.

Odd Rune Strømmen

2002-10-15, 5:24 pm

"Dennis Katsonis" <rotflol@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
news:3DA8D67D.7030700@hotmail.com...
> mat wrote:
> > further to the last post - if I do delete GNOME itself but retain the
> > GTK libraries to run GTK but non-GNOME programs can anyone point me to
> > the config files that seeminlgy govern the appearance of all GTK
> > programs, whether specifically for GNOME or not. I suppose what would
> > be most useful is a small app that can change themes etc for GTK
> > programs.
> >
> > cheers
>
> XFce is the best fully featured but still small window manager I've seen.
>

I still like BlackBox best of all the window managers i've ever tried.

/odd rune

Bruce Burhans

2002-10-15, 8:24 pm

"Odd Rune Strømmen" <oddrune@animenorge.net> wrote in message
news:d60r9.108780$Qk5.4856644@news010.worldonline.dk...
>
> "Dennis Katsonis" <rotflol@hotmail.com> skrev i melding
> news:3DA8D67D.7030700@hotmail.com...
> > mat wrote:
> > > further to the last post - if I do delete GNOME itself but retain the
> > > GTK libraries to run GTK but non-GNOME programs can anyone point me to
> > > the config files that seeminlgy govern the appearance of all GTK
> > > programs, whether specifically for GNOME or not. I suppose what would
> > > be most useful is a small app that can change themes etc for GTK
> > > programs.
> > >
> > > cheers
> >
> > XFce is the best fully featured but still small window manager I've
seen.
> >
>
> I still like BlackBox best of all the window managers i've ever tried.
>
> /odd rune
>
>
>

BlackBox is actually a window manager. KDE and
GNOME are desktop environments, and a whole
'nother ball game.

Bruce<+>

Robert E A Harvey

2002-10-17, 5:24 pm

mats_trash@hotmail.com (mat) wrote in message news:<43525ce3.0209180225.5d01e744@posting.google.com>...
> After trying out both KDE and GNOME for a while I've decided to opt
> for one of the other windowmanagers as they seem less laden. What I
> am wondering is to what extent I can use the KDE and GNOME apps
> within, say, blackbox.

I'd like to put a word in for fvwm2 which works very well on
old-slow-smallram boxes, and on a modern machine can be put to
excellent use. The ability to talk to windows using fvwmcommand
from the shell prompt or in scripts is fun.

I've used most common KDE things like kedit, konquerer, with it, and
havn't noticed any real problems. I can't now remember if
cut-and-paste works, but I can't see why it shouldn't.

There is a lot of good stuff out there in other varients, but I like
the ease of handling multiple pages and then multiple desks on fvwm2
..

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