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WHAT IF CISCO FOLDS
|
|
| news.iinet.net.au 2003-08-08, 10:25 am |
| Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
| |
|
|
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>
So if Cisco "folds", all
135315987158791978987978`56935
9879578`09819875975813951 deployed Cisco
products magically disappear and don't need supported anymore? Oh, ok.
| |
| Paisleyskye 2003-08-08, 12:24 pm |
| I highly doubt Cisco or Microsoft are going to go belly-up.
--
Tracey J. Rosenblath
www.icertify.net
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>
| |
| Eddie Haskal 2003-08-08, 1:24 pm |
| Who could give two shits about any certification? It's the experience you
get from contracting or at various places of employment... not the
certifications that you have... IMHO. The smartest people in the industry
don't have certification. Certifications are joke in this industry.
My ex-roommate didn't know shit about Cisco... paid some fly by night school
$1700 for his ccna... took test and failed it 5 times... finally passed on
the 6th... I called him with the same questions about my router and why ftp
wasn't working etc... I asked him how to configure the router from a serial
prompt... (looking for config t command) and he couldn't tell me what it
was... he even went to say that you could only apply changes to the router
via tftp transfers... yes, I am making my changes using notepad and tftping
them over... but shit... this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit.
Just another example of why I believe it is what you know and not what your
resume' claims that you know.
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
| |
| Eddie Haskal 2003-08-08, 1:24 pm |
| PS. If Cisco goes tits up... the routers will still be in place and need to
be supported. So, who cares who owns them?
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:STQYa.160869$R92.11109@news2.central.cox.net...
Who could give two shits about any certification? It's the experience you
get from contracting or at various places of employment... not the
certifications that you have... IMHO. The smartest people in the industry
don't have certification. Certifications are joke in this industry.
My ex-roommate didn't know shit about Cisco... paid some fly by night school
$1700 for his ccna... took test and failed it 5 times... finally passed on
the 6th... I called him with the same questions about my router and why ftp
wasn't working etc... I asked him how to configure the router from a serial
prompt... (looking for config t command) and he couldn't tell me what it
was... he even went to say that you could only apply changes to the router
via tftp transfers... yes, I am making my changes using notepad and tftping
them over... but shit... this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit.
Just another example of why I believe it is what you know and not what your
resume' claims that you know.
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
| |
|
| That's why Cisco started the Cisco Networking Academy!
Eddie Haskal wrote:
> Who could give two shits about any certification? It's the experience you
> get from contracting or at various places of employment... not the
> certifications that you have... IMHO. The smartest people in the industry
> don't have certification. Certifications are joke in this industry.
>
> My ex-roommate didn't know shit about Cisco... paid some fly by night school
> $1700 for his ccna... took test and failed it 5 times... finally passed on
> the 6th... I called him with the same questions about my router and why ftp
> wasn't working etc... I asked him how to configure the router from a serial
> prompt... (looking for config t command) and he couldn't tell me what it
> was... he even went to say that you could only apply changes to the router
> via tftp transfers... yes, I am making my changes using notepad and tftping
> them over... but shit... this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit.
>
> Just another example of why I believe it is what you know and not what your
> resume' claims that you know.
>
> "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
> news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>
>
| |
| Dave Christian 2003-08-08, 4:24 pm |
|
Just imagine if the world quits using computers and telecommunication
equipment.
Then we're all screwed.
In article < 3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22@free
news.iinet.net.au>,
wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam says...
> Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>
>
| |
| Eddie Haskal 2003-08-08, 5:24 pm |
| Holy shit!! I never thought of that. What would I do?
"Dave Christian" <dcnews@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.199dc68cf4eecceb9898a6@news-server.cfl.rr.com...
Just imagine if the world quits using computers and telecommunication
equipment.
Then we're all screwed.
In article < 3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22@free
news.iinet.net.au>,
wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam says...
> Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>
>
| |
| Bekim Abazoski 2003-08-08, 5:24 pm |
| I would start to build custom Gokarts.
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:y%TYa.167649$R92.121032@news2.central.cox.net...
> Holy shit!! I never thought of that. What would I do?
>
> "Dave Christian" <dcnews@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.199dc68cf4eecceb9898a6@news-server.cfl.rr.com...
>
> Just imagine if the world quits using computers and telecommunication
> equipment.
>
> Then we're all screwed.
>
>
> In article < 3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22@free
news.iinet.net.au>,
> wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam says...
> > Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> > those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> > Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> > companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> > Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
> >
> >
>
>
| |
| Eddie Haskal 2003-08-08, 6:24 pm |
| Mame cabinets here...
"Bekim Abazoski" <bekim321@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:6oUYa.467$794.416@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
I would start to build custom Gokarts.
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:y%TYa.167649$R92.121032@news2.central.cox.net...
> Holy shit!! I never thought of that. What would I do?
>
> "Dave Christian" <dcnews@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.199dc68cf4eecceb9898a6@news-server.cfl.rr.com...
>
> Just imagine if the world quits using computers and telecommunication
> equipment.
>
> Then we're all screwed.
>
>
> In article < 3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22@free
news.iinet.net.au>,
> wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam says...
> > Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> > those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> > Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> > companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> > Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
> >
> >
>
>
| |
| radioactiveman 2003-08-08, 6:24 pm |
| On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:14:26 +0000, Eddie Haskal wrote:
> this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit
some of the people i work with that has years of experience don't know
jack shit either. they've been getting by with minimal knowledge. i
guess its all different.
| |
| Eddie Haskal 2003-08-08, 7:24 pm |
| Trust me... I see this every day at the railroad. There are many people I
work with that couldn't get by if they were the only employee in the shop.
Amazing.
"radioactiveman" <radioactivem@springfield.com> wrote in message
news an.2003.08.08.22.06.01.330919@springfield.com...
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:14:26 +0000, Eddie Haskal wrote:
> this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit
some of the people i work with that has years of experience don't know
jack shit either. they've been getting by with minimal knowledge. i
guess its all different.
| |
| mikester 2003-08-08, 11:25 pm |
| I'd just start working on cars again... =-)
| |
|
| I concur and do not concur that certifications do not mean crap. I work in
an industry that is "results oriented" and have the pleasure of being a
hiring manager. I only look at the experience section of a resume and
interview based off the job requirements and try to confirm their claimed
experience.
However, I am still a techie and I do not always want to work in this
industry overseas. Therefore I am trying to pump out the various
certifications. To say certifications do not mean shit, is not fair.
1. Companies do care
2. As an example - I knew enough to pass the CCNA exam without any real
studies. However, I did fine tune multiple areas of my knowledge of some of
the topics by studying. Paper certs are what causes a bad rap for these
certs.
3. You can have 8 years of experience but will often get beat out by
someone with 2 years of experience with the certs. Regardless of skill
level overall.
Basically, certs are not worthless. People becoming paper certified are
making them less valuable, but a tech with certifications and experience can
very competitive. I went 5 years without certifications, because I thought
they were ridiculous. Now, I see it from another angle and they do serve a
purpose. At worst, you learn a lot of detailed information and can
straighten out facts. Also, you can use the study material as reference
material. 
Ceyko
"radioactiveman" <radioactivem@springfield.com> wrote in message
newsan.2003.08.08.22.06.01.330919@springfield.com...
> On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:14:26 +0000, Eddie Haskal wrote:
>
> > this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit
>
> some of the people i work with that has years of experience don't know
> jack shit either. they've been getting by with minimal knowledge. i
> guess its all different.
>
>
>
>
x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
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| |
| John Agosta 2003-08-10, 1:24 am |
|
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>
I think spending time wondering if Cisco will 'fold'
is about as silly as putting money on the Cubs to win the World Series.
It ain't gonna happen.
;-)
-ja
| |
| Ghazan Haider 2003-08-10, 2:24 am |
| Ive been suspecting this already and have started on educating myself
for a list of certs I'm aiming for. I know plenty with MCSEs and CCNAs
who couldnt tell a service pack from a version update. However someone
with an RHCE, CCNP, LCA and SCNA would be preferred more than a
similarly experienced person with none of the certs.
Just a question I'd like to ask to get a better picture of the market.
How much value does a college degree or diploma really have? I'm
aiming for RHCE+SCNA+CCIE without bothering for a college degree and
have 3 years experience down on paper. Would you go with someone of
the same experience without the certs but with a college degree? Would
other hiring managers in larger corporations or smaller firms do the
same?
> I concur and do not concur that certifications do not mean crap. I work in
> an industry that is "results oriented" and have the pleasure of being a
> hiring manager. I only look at the experience section of a resume and
> interview based off the job requirements and try to confirm their claimed
> experience.
>
> However, I am still a techie and I do not always want to work in this
> industry overseas. Therefore I am trying to pump out the various
> certifications. To say certifications do not mean shit, is not fair.
> 1. Companies do care
> 2. As an example - I knew enough to pass the CCNA exam without any real
> studies. However, I did fine tune multiple areas of my knowledge of some of
> the topics by studying. Paper certs are what causes a bad rap for these
> certs.
> 3. You can have 8 years of experience but will often get beat out by
> someone with 2 years of experience with the certs. Regardless of skill
> level overall.
>
> Basically, certs are not worthless. People becoming paper certified are
> making them less valuable, but a tech with certifications and experience can
> very competitive. I went 5 years without certifications, because I thought
> they were ridiculous. Now, I see it from another angle and they do serve a
> purpose. At worst, you learn a lot of detailed information and can
> straighten out facts. Also, you can use the study material as reference
> material.
>
> Ceyko
>
| |
| CybrSage 2003-08-10, 2:24 pm |
| What if the US Government suddenly goes away? Then all my money is
useless!!! I had better buy guns and gold!!!
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>
| |
| CybrSage 2003-08-10, 2:24 pm |
| You obviously do not have a real clue about reality.
Say both you and I have equal skills and experiance, but I have my cisco
certs and you do not. Who gets the job?
Exactly, the owner's son. Wait, I mean me, with guy with the
certifications, not you, the guy who is too good to get certifications...
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:STQYa.160869$R92.11109@news2.central.cox.net...
> Who could give two shits about any certification? It's the experience you
> get from contracting or at various places of employment... not the
> certifications that you have... IMHO. The smartest people in the industry
> don't have certification. Certifications are joke in this industry.
>
> My ex-roommate didn't know shit about Cisco... paid some fly by night
school
> $1700 for his ccna... took test and failed it 5 times... finally passed on
> the 6th... I called him with the same questions about my router and why
ftp
> wasn't working etc... I asked him how to configure the router from a
serial
> prompt... (looking for config t command) and he couldn't tell me what it
> was... he even went to say that you could only apply changes to the router
> via tftp transfers... yes, I am making my changes using notepad and
tftping
> them over... but shit... this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit.
>
> Just another example of why I believe it is what you know and not what
your
> resume' claims that you know.
>
> "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
> news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>
>
| |
| news.iinet.net.au 2003-08-10, 11:24 pm |
| Well lets see, I wouldn't really care if the US Goverment went away, I'm
in Australia
Yes guns and gold and a cisco router will be only commodity. ( hope not)
But seriously. I went to a local University last year as I was looking
at a degree in computing. I asked about cert's and there response was
that certs are Propriatry, and what they try and teach is computing in a
gerneral sense, rather than cover someones `product' they try and teach
how stuff works, rather than concentrate on knowing specifics on a
product. And i was not going to be eligable for any credit points for
having any cert's.
But anyway I have my 70-210,70-215 MCP, and going to sit CCNA for the
second time next week. I missed 6 questunes in my last attempt ( ran out
of time ), and of course XXXXed it. But I'm more prepared.
Lets just hope cisco systems doesn't fold or I'll be pissed.
Maybe Juniper Networks, or surecomm ! will have there own certs in
future, who knows its so competitave out there.
CybrSage wrote:
> What if the US Government suddenly goes away? Then all my money is
> useless!!! I had better buy guns and gold!!!
>
> "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
> news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
>
>>Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
>>those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
>>Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
>>companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
>>Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>>
>
>
>
| |
| Hansang Bae 2003-08-11, 12:24 am |
| In article <2f57764a.0308092219.61e3ed02@posting.google.com>,
ghazan@ghazan.haider.name says...
[snip]
> Just a question I'd like to ask to get a better picture of the market.
> How much value does a college degree or diploma really have?
Quite a bit of value.
> I'm
> aiming for RHCE+SCNA+CCIE without bothering for a college degree and
> have 3 years experience down on paper. Would you go with someone of
> the same experience without the certs but with a college degree?
Yes....most of the time. Again, it depends on the person. Someone with
a lot of potential would be hired w/o a degree, but for the most part,
having a degree is quite helpful.
> Would
> other hiring managers in larger corporations or smaller firms do the
> same?
Most likely yes.
--
hsb
"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
*************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
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Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
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| |
| Steffi 2003-08-11, 4:25 am |
| Do not think in this way. 'What if' can be used with lots of factors.
It would become very difficult for all of us to plan things like this.
Had anybody thought about the sad demise of JFK? Had anybody thought
What if twin tower is attacked? Things changes with the time and you
will have to learn to live in the present. If CISCO is one of the best
certiffication at present, one should go for it.
Steffi S.
"news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message news:< 3f36fe1e$0$23590$5a62ac22@free
news.iinet.net.au>...
> Well lets see, I wouldn't really care if the US Goverment went away, I'm
> in Australia
> Yes guns and gold and a cisco router will be only commodity. ( hope not)
>
> But seriously. I went to a local University last year as I was looking
> at a degree in computing. I asked about cert's and there response was
> that certs are Propriatry, and what they try and teach is computing in a
> gerneral sense, rather than cover someones `product' they try and teach
> how stuff works, rather than concentrate on knowing specifics on a
> product. And i was not going to be eligable for any credit points for
> having any cert's.
>
> But anyway I have my 70-210,70-215 MCP, and going to sit CCNA for the
> second time next week. I missed 6 questunes in my last attempt ( ran out
> of time ), and of course XXXXed it. But I'm more prepared.
> Lets just hope cisco systems doesn't fold or I'll be pissed.
> Maybe Juniper Networks, or surecomm ! will have there own certs in
> future, who knows its so competitave out there.
>
>
>
>
> CybrSage wrote:
> > What if the US Government suddenly goes away? Then all my money is
> > useless!!! I had better buy guns and gold!!!
> >
> > "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
> > news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> >
> >>Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> >>those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> >>Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> >>companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> >>Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
| |
| Ghazan Haider 2003-08-11, 11:26 am |
| Oh crap
Thanks anyway.
| |
| Eddie Haskal 2003-08-11, 7:24 pm |
| I must have hit a tender spot with you. I am sorry.
I can tell you that 99% of the people that decide to get into computers
their Senior year in high school, will never be hired by myself or my firm
or the company I currently am employed by today. Anyone can pick up a book
and read. Anyone can take a test and pass that test if they apply
themselves. Having the market flooded with certified idiots with no past or
present experience is what gives the industry's certification programs a bad
name.
I have nothing bad to say about Cisco at all however, the fly by night
companies that offer Cisco classes/certification tests etc and market their
business such as a business like ITT Technical Institute offers ("Looking to
change your life? Looking for a new career?") should be shut down and
expelled from the universe.
The more people that learn about this industry at a younger age tend to NOT
get certifications because they know that they do not need them to succeed.
I do agree that a college education is a must, but don't go out and get a
degree in MIS if you have the knowledge already. You would be better off
without the degree in MIS and instead with a degree in another field for
future use etc.
Again, this is my opinion. I know there are people that disagree and
consider that your opinion. I am not looking to be flamed. I am simply
replying to my method of hiring etc.
my"CybrSage" <CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news bGcnYZSR7REFquiXTWJjg@co
mcast.com...
You obviously do not have a real clue about reality.
Say both you and I have equal skills and experiance, but I have my cisco
certs and you do not. Who gets the job?
Exactly, the owner's son. Wait, I mean me, with guy with the
certifications, not you, the guy who is too good to get certifications...
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:STQYa.160869$R92.11109@news2.central.cox.net...
> Who could give two shits about any certification? It's the experience you
> get from contracting or at various places of employment... not the
> certifications that you have... IMHO. The smartest people in the industry
> don't have certification. Certifications are joke in this industry.
>
> My ex-roommate didn't know shit about Cisco... paid some fly by night
school
> $1700 for his ccna... took test and failed it 5 times... finally passed on
> the 6th... I called him with the same questions about my router and why
ftp
> wasn't working etc... I asked him how to configure the router from a
serial
> prompt... (looking for config t command) and he couldn't tell me what it
> was... he even went to say that you could only apply changes to the router
> via tftp transfers... yes, I am making my changes using notepad and
tftping
> them over... but shit... this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit.
>
> Just another example of why I believe it is what you know and not what
your
> resume' claims that you know.
>
> "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
> news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>
>
| |
| cariddi 2003-08-12, 6:25 am |
| Your question regarding college degree vs. Certs.
Would I hire someone who had no degree and 3 certs?
Probably not.
Certs can give you a leg up when we are interviewing for specific roles.
It just shows that you are taking your career seriously and have a capacity
to learn.
However, My company and many companies simply state the following:
College degree Required.
Sometimes you can't get around that unless you know someone and have proven
yourself.
Just my .02 cents.
| |
|
| Unfortunately that is the case in a lot of companies. CCIE, MCSE, CISSP,
and any other popular certs won't matter without a degree. I know of one
specific case where a financial company contracted a guy for 2 years. He
did a superb job and EVERYONE wanted to hire him full-time. However, HR
policy was "Degree is required" and they could not hire him. I think that
requiring a degree for technical positions is not appropriate. If you have
the experience and qualifications that should be sufficient. Why should
someone with 10 years experience, several certs and the knowledge be
declined a job over someone with a degree and minimal knowledge? As a
person who is in a hiring role, I'll pick a person who can do the job best
over who has a degree or not. Then again, I am in a "make it happen"
environment and need results oriented people. I have people with degrees
that a just as effective as people without degrees and vice-versa. My
experience shows that a degree has no effect on the overall efficiency of an
administrator.
However, if you get into budgets, large POs and large project management a
person with a degree will probably be more effective due to the required
classes in colleges. My references are from Network Architect (Borderline
degree...must have massive experience w/certifications) on down to Tier I
Help Desk positions.
Ceyko
"cariddi" <rcariddi@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:iv2_a.46857$_R5.15379474@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> Your question regarding college degree vs. Certs.
> Would I hire someone who had no degree and 3 certs?
> Probably not.
> Certs can give you a leg up when we are interviewing for specific roles.
> It just shows that you are taking your career seriously and have a
capacity
> to learn.
>
> However, My company and many companies simply state the following:
> college degree Required.
> Sometimes you can't get around that unless you know someone and have
proven
> yourself.
>
>
> Just my .02 cents.
>
>
x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
x-- 3,500+ Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups
x-- Access to over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month
x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD
| |
| Bryce 2003-08-12, 10:25 am |
| Everyone,
From my consulting experience and dealing with hundreds of companies, formal
education is much more highly valued over certification by 99% of companies
out there. The guy with a Master of Science in Computer Science or
Information Tech (or a PhD) will be seen as more educated and mature in
understanding than someone with no degree and a bunch of "vendor specific"
certifications. Why?
Formal education is valued at the extremely high levels of most corporations
by the executives that run the companies. They don't consider you to be
"cultured" and mature unless your highly educated in a formal manner.
That's why there is such a high value placed on formal education - it moves
you up the "social ladder" in general; places you into a different "cast" if
you will.
Moreover, the formal education proves a lateral and comprehensive
understanding of a particular field. Certs are more specific in nature.
Certs lack this "lateral" or all-encompassing type of knowledge recognition.
Someone with a graduate degree in IT is seen as being more mature and
comprehensive in their knowledge than someone with no degree and certs
alone. This is what I've learned from dealing face-to-face with "Corporate
America."
My 2 cents.
Yours,
Bryce
"John Agosta" <j_agosta@wideopenwest.kom> wrote in message
news:E2mdnVrMOc0wVKiiU-KYvw@wideopenwest.com...
>
> "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
> news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> > Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> > those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> > Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> > companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> > Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
> >
>
> I think spending time wondering if Cisco will 'fold'
> is about as silly as putting money on the Cubs to win the World Series.
>
> It ain't gonna happen.
>
> ;-)
>
> -ja
>
>
| |
| Bernie 2003-08-12, 10:25 am |
| On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:05:11 +0200, "Ceyko" <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>Unfortunately that is the case in a lot of companies. CCIE, MCSE, CISSP,
>and any other popular certs won't matter without a degree. I know of one
>specific case where a financial company contracted a guy for 2 years. He
>did a superb job and EVERYONE wanted to hire him full-time. However, HR
>policy was "Degree is required" and they could not hire him. I think that
>requiring a degree for technical positions is not appropriate. If you have
>the experience and qualifications that should be sufficient.
It depends on the technical position. What about a technical position
where the person is asked to work with customers? Sometimes having a
degree gives that person the extra "polish" that make customers feel
like they are in the hands of a intelligent, capable person. Or what
about a technical person that is asked to write white papers, etc?
I would just be careful about drawing the same hard lines that you are
accusing the companies of doing. Sometimes companies do know best
about how potential candidates will generally fit within the company.
Maybe not always--but just because you can't see the reasoning from
the outside looking in, doesn't mean their reasons are crap either.
Even in the case where everyone wanted to hire that guy, it doesn't
necessarily mean they were all right. History is rife with examples
of masses of people thinking something is right which turns out to be
wrong. It is entirely possible that the policy in place is there for
a good reason. Certainly no policy is perfect. Any policy is going
to overlook the "exceptions to the rule" and sometimes allow the bad
kind of exceptions too. But that isn't the purpose of a policy. The
policy is there because statistically, it is the best, impartial
solution to some given problem. If you don't know what the problem
is, it is very hard to judge the effectiveness of that policy.
>Why should
>someone with 10 years experience, several certs and the knowledge be
>declined a job over someone with a degree and minimal knowledge?
That isn't the choice these days. It is a matter of choosing between
two people with loads of experience, one has a degree, the other
doesn't...
>As a
>person who is in a hiring role, I'll pick a person who can do the job best
>over who has a degree or not. Then again, I am in a "make it happen"
>environment and need results oriented people. I have people with degrees
>that a just as effective as people without degrees and vice-versa. My
>experience shows that a degree has no effect on the overall efficiency of an
>administrator.
That may be true, but it is a very narrow criteria to use to judge the
difference. People with a college education are generally going to
have more capacity for things non-technical, and thus they can grow
into other higher positions in the future. The technophile with no
education may be stuck being a tech for the rest of his life.
You are also using personal experience as a sample space. A broader
statistical study would be more revealing as to the differences
between the two camps. It is entirely possible that your hiring
criteria skews the results such that uneducated people come out being
roughly equal to those with degrees, or vice versa. For example, if
you have a rigorous qualification exam, you are already weeding out
most of the bad people. It would be more interesting to see what
percentage fail from the educated vs. uneducated groups. I am not
venturing a guess here, but I am just pointing out the flaws with the
criteria you are using to come to your conclusion that there is little
difference.
>However, if you get into budgets, large POs and large project management a
>person with a degree will probably be more effective due to the required
>classes in colleges. My references are from Network Architect (Borderline
>degree...must have massive experience w/certifications) on down to Tier I
>Help Desk positions.
>
>Ceyko
>"cariddi" <rcariddi@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:iv2_a.46857$_R5.15379474@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>> Your question regarding college degree vs. Certs.
>> Would I hire someone who had no degree and 3 certs?
>> Probably not.
>> Certs can give you a leg up when we are interviewing for specific roles.
>> It just shows that you are taking your career seriously and have a
>capacity
>> to learn.
>>
>> However, My company and many companies simply state the following:
>> college degree Required.
>> Sometimes you can't get around that unless you know someone and have
>proven
>> yourself.
>>
>>
>> Just my .02 cents.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
>x-- 3,500+ Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups
>x-- Access to over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month
>x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD
--Bernie
| |
| Ceyko 2003-08-12, 12:25 pm |
| Bernie,
Your points are very well made and I would like to elaborate more. However,
I have to attend a meeting that will go late into the night with lots of
beers. I am also interested to see who is defending what. My point is,
do you have a degree and therefore are defending that aspect in the
conversation? Frankly, I have a jaded point of view and am defending people
without a degree. Why? Because I do not have one. I do agree with your
points about writing white papers and interacting with customers. I also
agree that I have spoken about a specific part of the IT pie and there are
other industries that a degree is beneficial.
I want to continue and make some counter statements but do not have the
time. To be honest this conversation has my interest and I like to hear
both sides of the story. It tends to be enlightening.
Take care,
Ceyko
"Bernie" <Bernie@weekend.com> wrote in message
news:bvrhjvkaqj7nemhkq8igvcobi
opmtavocf@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:05:11 +0200, "Ceyko" <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>
> >Unfortunately that is the case in a lot of companies. CCIE, MCSE, CISSP,
> >and any other popular certs won't matter without a degree. I know of one
> >specific case where a financial company contracted a guy for 2 years. He
> >did a superb job and EVERYONE wanted to hire him full-time. However, HR
> >policy was "Degree is required" and they could not hire him. I think
that
> >requiring a degree for technical positions is not appropriate. If you
have
> >the experience and qualifications that should be sufficient.
>
> It depends on the technical position. What about a technical position
> where the person is asked to work with customers? Sometimes having a
> degree gives that person the extra "polish" that make customers feel
> like they are in the hands of a intelligent, capable person. Or what
> about a technical person that is asked to write white papers, etc?
>
> I would just be careful about drawing the same hard lines that you are
> accusing the companies of doing. Sometimes companies do know best
> about how potential candidates will generally fit within the company.
> Maybe not always--but just because you can't see the reasoning from
> the outside looking in, doesn't mean their reasons are crap either.
>
> Even in the case where everyone wanted to hire that guy, it doesn't
> necessarily mean they were all right. History is rife with examples
> of masses of people thinking something is right which turns out to be
> wrong. It is entirely possible that the policy in place is there for
> a good reason. Certainly no policy is perfect. Any policy is going
> to overlook the "exceptions to the rule" and sometimes allow the bad
> kind of exceptions too. But that isn't the purpose of a policy. The
> policy is there because statistically, it is the best, impartial
> solution to some given problem. If you don't know what the problem
> is, it is very hard to judge the effectiveness of that policy.
>
> >Why should
> >someone with 10 years experience, several certs and the knowledge be
> >declined a job over someone with a degree and minimal knowledge?
>
> That isn't the choice these days. It is a matter of choosing between
> two people with loads of experience, one has a degree, the other
> doesn't...
>
> >As a
> >person who is in a hiring role, I'll pick a person who can do the job
best
> >over who has a degree or not. Then again, I am in a "make it happen"
> >environment and need results oriented people. I have people with degrees
> >that a just as effective as people without degrees and vice-versa. My
> >experience shows that a degree has no effect on the overall efficiency of
an
> >administrator.
>
> That may be true, but it is a very narrow criteria to use to judge the
> difference. People with a college education are generally going to
> have more capacity for things non-technical, and thus they can grow
> into other higher positions in the future. The technophile with no
> education may be stuck being a tech for the rest of his life.
>
> You are also using personal experience as a sample space. A broader
> statistical study would be more revealing as to the differences
> between the two camps. It is entirely possible that your hiring
> criteria skews the results such that uneducated people come out being
> roughly equal to those with degrees, or vice versa. For example, if
> you have a rigorous qualification exam, you are already weeding out
> most of the bad people. It would be more interesting to see what
> percentage fail from the educated vs. uneducated groups. I am not
> venturing a guess here, but I am just pointing out the flaws with the
> criteria you are using to come to your conclusion that there is little
> difference.
>
> >However, if you get into budgets, large POs and large project management
a
> >person with a degree will probably be more effective due to the required
> >classes in colleges. My references are from Network Architect
(Borderline
> >degree...must have massive experience w/certifications) on down to Tier I
> >Help Desk positions.
> >
> >Ceyko
> >"cariddi" <rcariddi@optonline.net> wrote in message
> >news:iv2_a.46857$_R5.15379474@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> >> Your question regarding college degree vs. Certs.
> >> Would I hire someone who had no degree and 3 certs?
> >> Probably not.
> >> Certs can give you a leg up when we are interviewing for specific
roles. [colo
r=darkred]
> >> It just shows that you are taking your career seriously and have a
> >capacity
> >> to learn.
> >>
> >> However, My company and many companies simply state the following:
> >> college degree Required.
> >> Sometimes you can't get around that unless you know someone and have
> >proven
> >> yourself.
> >>
> >>
> >> Just my .02 cents.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
> >x-- 3,500+ Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups
> >x-- Access to over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month
> >x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD
>
>
> --Bernie[/color]
x-- 100 Proof News - http://www.100ProofNews.com
x-- 3,500+ Binary NewsGroups, and over 90,000 other groups
x-- Access to over 800 Gigs/Day - $8.95/Month
x-- UNLIMITED DOWNLOAD
| |
| marshdude71@yahoo.com 2003-08-12, 3:25 pm |
| steffis_aus@hotmail.com (Steffi) wrote in message news:<fdb7cfe5.0308102320.38812aed@posting.google.com>...
> Do not think in this way. 'What if' can be used with lots of factors.
> It would become very difficult for all of us to plan things like this.
> Had anybody thought about the sad demise of JFK? Had anybody thought
> What if twin tower is attacked? Things changes with the time and you
> will have to learn to live in the present. If CISCO is one of the best
> certiffication at present, one should go for it.
>
> Steffi S.
>
> "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message news:< 3f36fe1e$0$23590$5a62ac22@free
news.iinet.net.au>...
> > Well lets see, I wouldn't really care if the US Goverment went away, I'm
> > in Australia
> > Yes guns and gold and a cisco router will be only commodity. ( hope not)
> >
> > But seriously. I went to a local University last year as I was looking
> > at a degree in computing. I asked about cert's and there response was
> > that certs are Propriatry, and what they try and teach is computing in a
> > gerneral sense, rather than cover someones `product' they try and teach
> > how stuff works, rather than concentrate on knowing specifics on a
> > product. And i was not going to be eligable for any credit points for
> > having any cert's.
> >
> > But anyway I have my 70-210,70-215 MCP, and going to sit CCNA for the
> > second time next week. I missed 6 questunes in my last attempt ( ran out
> > of time ), and of course XXXXed it. But I'm more prepared.
> > Lets just hope cisco systems doesn't fold or I'll be pissed.
> > Maybe Juniper Networks, or surecomm ! will have there own certs in
> > future, who knows its so competitave out there.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > CybrSage wrote:
> > > What if the US Government suddenly goes away? Then all my money is
> > > useless!!! I had better buy guns and gold!!!
> > >
> > > "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
> > > news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> > >
> > >>Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> > >>those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> > >>Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> > >>companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> > >>Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
People Please refrain from mocking my beloved Cubs. They are only
3 1/2 games out. World Series is still a few months away. Go Cubs !!!
| |
| Bernie 2003-08-13, 3:25 am |
| On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:59:44 +0200, "Ceyko" <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>Bernie,
>Your points are very well made and I would like to elaborate more. However,
>I have to attend a meeting that will go late into the night with lots of
>beers. I am also interested to see who is defending what. My point is,
>do you have a degree and therefore are defending that aspect in the
>conversation?
Fair question. Yes I have a degree, but that isn't why I am defending
it. See, I just got my degree last December (finally). I have
defended degrees long before that.
But to say I am defending degrees somewhat cheapens my point. I am
not saying that a degree is some end-all panacea that unequivocally
proves this or that about a person. Yeah, some people drink through
college. Others have daddies that pay for a building at Harvard and
get essentially a free pass. A degree is not a perfect meter, but it
does tend to say a few things about a person. It is also fair to say
that absence of a degree does not imply the absence of those
"qualities" a degree tends to confirm in a person.
>Frankly, I have a jaded point of view and am defending people
>without a degree. Why? Because I do not have one.
I wouldn't put it that way (unless that really is the reason)--that
cheapens your point to say you are defending it because you don't have
a degree. As difficult as it is, I try to take personal matters out
of it. I try not to argue one side just because I fall in that
particular camp. For example, if I were downloading MP3's all day, I
probably wouldn't try to make the case that I am doing some sort of
honorable deed to justify my actions. That may not be the best
example, but I think you see what I mean.
I'm certainly not saying that you don't have legitimate points to make
on the subject. And I am not even arguing the complete opposite. I
am trying to present an aspect that you may have been overlooking. I
also object to what appeared to be an insinuation that those who
require degrees are companies that don't care about getting the job
done. Maybe it wasn't the point you were trying to make, but it reads
like are accusing them all of being mindless bureaucrats. In some
cases that may be true, but I wouldn't use such a broad brush. So
that was the motivation behind my response--to clarify that there may
be good reasons that you are not aware of.
I had a number of reasons I went back and finished school. I'll only
share those particular ones that relate to this discussion though. I
did see value in finishing school. I saw the value of the education
itself, though going in that wasn't a huge motivator. I also saw the
value in the doors it would open. One can only complain so much about
the system...at some point I had to decide whether to play the game or
to abstain and suffer the consequences. At the very least, I took
away one excuse for people not to hire me. Lastly, I didn't want to
hit a glass ceiling if I wanted out of the tech side. In hind sight,
I didn't foresee one other *BIG* benefit. I never predicted the
possibility of getting laid off and having no other IT jobs to take.
Had I lost my job, I might have at least had an option to change
careers and not start at the complete bottom of another field due to
having a degree.
Coming out, I look back and place a lot more value on my education.
Not that I worship it or anything--I just see what I have learned over
the years. And this isn't just some cheap way of trying to justify
the money I spent after the fact. I really do value what I learned.
Now part of that is because I put a lot of effort into my classes, so
I got a lot out. Had I drank my way through, I might not have learned
too much yet I'd still have a degree...
>I do agree with your
>points about writing white papers and interacting with customers. I also
>agree that I have spoken about a specific part of the IT pie and there are
>other industries that a degree is beneficial.
And I also agree that there are times in this field that a degree
doesn't really add much value to a job.
>I want to continue and make some counter statements but do not have the
>time. To be honest this conversation has my interest and I like to hear
>both sides of the story. It tends to be enlightening.
>
>Take care,
>Ceyko
>"Bernie" <Bernie@weekend.com> wrote in message
> news:bvrhjvkaqj7nemhkq8igvcobi
opmtavocf@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:05:11 +0200, "Ceyko" <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Unfortunately that is the case in a lot of companies. CCIE, MCSE, CISSP,
>> >and any other popular certs won't matter without a degree. I know of one
>> >specific case where a financial company contracted a guy for 2 years. He
>> >did a superb job and EVERYONE wanted to hire him full-time. However, HR
>> >policy was "Degree is required" and they could not hire him. I think
> that
>> >requiring a degree for technical positions is not appropriate. If you
> have
>> >the experience and qualifications that should be sufficient.
>>
>> It depends on the technical position. What about a technical position
>> where the person is asked to work with customers? Sometimes having a
>> degree gives that person the extra "polish" that make customers feel
>> like they are in the hands of a intelligent, capable person. Or what
>> about a technical person that is asked to write white papers, etc?
>>
>> I would just be careful about drawing the same hard lines that you are
>> accusing the companies of doing. Sometimes companies do know best
>> about how potential candidates will generally fit within the company.
>> Maybe not always--but just because you can't see the reasoning from
>> the outside looking in, doesn't mean their reasons are crap either.
>>
>> Even in the case where everyone wanted to hire that guy, it doesn't
>> necessarily mean they were all right. History is rife with examples
>> of masses of people thinking something is right which turns out to be
>> wrong. It is entirely possible that the policy in place is there for
>> a good reason. Certainly no policy is perfect. Any policy is going
>> to overlook the "exceptions to the rule" and sometimes allow the bad
>> kind of exceptions too. But that isn't the purpose of a policy. The
>> policy is there because statistically, it is the best, impartial
>> solution to some given problem. If you don't know what the problem
>> is, it is very hard to judge the effectiveness of that policy.
>>
>> >Why should
>> >someone with 10 years experience, several certs and the knowledge be
>> >declined a job over someone with a degree and minimal knowledge?
>>
>> That isn't the choice these days. It is a matter of choosing between
>> two people with loads of experience, one has a degree, the other
>> doesn't...
>>
>> >As a
>> >person who is in a hiring role, I'll pick a person who can do the job
> best
>> >over who has a degree or not. Then again, I am in a "make it happen"
>> >environment and need results oriented people. I have people with degrees
>> >that a just as effective as people without degrees and vice-versa. My
>> >experience shows that a degree has no effect on the overall efficiency of
> an
>> >administrator.
>>
>> That may be true, but it is a very narrow criteria to use to judge the
>> difference. People with a college education are generally going to
>> have more capacity for things non-technical, and thus they can grow
>> into other higher positions in the future. The technophile with no
>> education may be stuck being a tech for the rest of his life.
>>
>> You are also using personal experience as a sample space. A broader
>> statistical study would be more revealing as to the differences
>> between the two camps. It is entirely possible that your hiring
>> criteria skews the results such that uneducated people come out being
>> roughly equal to those with degrees, or vice versa. For example, if
>> you have a rigorous qualification exam, you are already weeding out
>> most of the bad people. It would be more interesting to see what
>> percentage fail from the educated vs. uneducated groups. I am not
>> venturing a guess here, but I am just pointing out the flaws with the
>> criteria you are using to come to your conclusion that there is little
>> difference.
--Bernie
| |
| John Agosta 2003-08-13, 11:25 pm |
|
"Bernie" <Bernie@weekend.com> wrote in message
news 3ljjvkqc5qcmkftsjps5jfs4
f3jlrsgjm@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:59:44 +0200, "Ceyko" <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>
> >Bernie,
> >Your points are very well made and I would like to elaborate more.
However,
> >I have to attend a meeting that will go late into the night with lots of
> >beers. I am also interested to see who is defending what. My point
is,
> >do you have a degree and therefore are defending that aspect in the
> >conversation?
>
> Fair question.
Nice post, Bernie. Very nice.
-ja
| |
| Robert Chen 2003-08-18, 1:27 pm |
| This is true of any industry. For the most part paper certs are not much
worth. But the thing that makes Cisco different is that if you want to be
the best of the best, referring to CCIE's, you have to take a practical.
You can't pass the practical with out at least having some idea of what you
are doing. In my option, that's what sets CCIE's apart from CCNA, CCNP,
MCSE, and etc.... Although alot of people can read and pass the written
test, not everyone can pass the lab. Besides, Cisco takes alot of pride in
their certs. Incase you haven't notice or remember, if you fail a test and
then retake that same test, it gets harder. It tests you more on the parts
that you failed from the time before. There is no such thing as a perfect
solution. Certs are, sorta kinda, like degrees. It builds a foundation for
a person. This so that when some one talks about how to subnet or how to
configure a router/switch, they atleast have some idea of what you are
taking about. They wouldn't come back with a blank look at you. Also, it
doesn't matter how much experience you have, if you can't remember how to
setup/fix it then you wouldn't be able to. I have come across too many
people who have passed their CCNA/CCNP and can't remember shit. They just
remember the material long enough to pass the test. Those are the people
that the world would have to be care of. And those are the people that give
alot of these certs a bad name. But I think that they would give degrees a
bad name too.
"radioactiveman" <radioactivem@springfield.com> wrote in message
newsan.2003.08.08.22.06.01.330919@springfield.com...
> On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:14:26 +0000, Eddie Haskal wrote:
>
> > this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit
>
> some of the people i work with that has years of experience don't know
> jack shit either. they've been getting by with minimal knowledge. i
> guess its all different.
>
>
>
>
| |
| Bernie 2003-08-18, 2:27 pm |
| On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:29:52 -0400, "Robert Chen" <rtc0@erols.com>
wrote:
>This is true of any industry.
Any industry that uses Sylvan multiple choice exams, that is... There
are industries with certs that don't have these problems, but these
industries aren't using computerized multiple guess exams either. For
example, actuaries have a cert process that uses paper exams, and
their program that is far stronger and rigorous than Cisco's could
ever hope to be.
>For the most part paper certs are not much
>worth. But the thing that makes Cisco different is that if you want to be
>the best of the best, referring to CCIE's, you have to take a practical.
>You can't pass the practical with out at least having some idea of what you
>are doing. In my option, that's what sets CCIE's apart from CCNA, CCNP,
>MCSE, and etc.... Although alot of people can read and pass the written
>test, not everyone can pass the lab. Besides, Cisco takes alot of pride in
>their certs. Incase you haven't notice or remember, if you fail a test and
>then retake that same test, it gets harder. It tests you more on the parts
>that you failed from the time before.
That is not true, just another urban myth. Exams are
monolithic--there is an A exam, a B exam, and possibly a C or D just
depending on how many complete exams are developed for a particular
cert. There is no "pool of questions"; rather there is a small pool
of *complete exams*. When you take an exam, you get exam B for
example. If you fail and retake it again, you will get exam A next
time. Exam A may happen to focus on the areas you are weak, or it may
focus on areas that you are strong...that is just luck of the draw,
not a purposeful exam made to fit *you*. Exam A's contents were fixed
long before you took it.
I have developed a Sylvan-Prometric cert exam before, so I know about
the back end of certifications. JA has been involved in Cisco exam
development too, and he also has said the same thing as I concerning
the small pool of *exams* (A, B, C) and that there isn't some AI
engine specially creating your exam, based on a huge pool of questions
and your past failures..
>There is no such thing as a perfect
>solution. Certs are, sorta kinda, like degrees. It builds a foundation for
>a person. This so that when some one talks about how to subnet or how to
>configure a router/switch, they atleast have some idea of what you are
>taking about. They wouldn't come back with a blank look at you. Also, it
>doesn't matter how much experience you have, if you can't remember how to
>setup/fix it then you wouldn't be able to. I have come across too many
>people who have passed their CCNA/CCNP and can't remember shit. They just
>remember the material long enough to pass the test. Those are the people
>that the world would have to be care of. And those are the people that give
>alot of these certs a bad name. But I think that they would give degrees a
>bad name too.
>"radioactiveman" <radioactivem@springfield.com> wrote in message
>newsan.2003.08.08.22.06.01.330919@springfield.com...
>> On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:14:26 +0000, Eddie Haskal wrote:
>>
>> > this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit
>>
>> some of the people i work with that has years of experience don't know
>> jack shit either. they've been getting by with minimal knowledge. i
>> guess its all different.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--Bernie
| |
| CybrSage 2003-08-18, 11:24 pm |
| Nah, not a tender spot. I just live and work near a state capitol.
Certifications are required by the state to work at different levels.
Someone without certification will have to work at a much lower level than
someone with. Does not matter if they helped design ARPANet, no cert, no
high level jobs.
Too many places think a college degree means people know something. Most
people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
learning. This means they know as much as someone who used a Test King to
pass their cert exam. Anyone can take years to pick up a book at college
and read. Anyone can take the college tests and pass those tests if they
apply themselves. Having the market flooded with college graduate idiots
with no past or present experience is what gives the college education a bad
name.
:-) Sorry for stealing your own words, slightly altering them, and using
them. But the shoe definately fit...
"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:TbVZa.248473$R92.21377@news2.central.cox.net...
> I must have hit a tender spot with you. I am sorry.
>
> I can tell you that 99% of the people that decide to get into computers
> their Senior year in high school, will never be hired by myself or my firm
> or the company I currently am employed by today. Anyone can pick up a book
> and read. Anyone can take a test and pass that test if they apply
> themselves. Having the market flooded with certified idiots with no past
or
> present experience is what gives the industry's certification programs a
bad
> name.
>
> I have nothing bad to say about Cisco at all however, the fly by night
> companies that offer Cisco classes/certification tests etc and market
their
> business such as a business like ITT Technical Institute offers ("Looking
to
> change your life? Looking for a new career?") should be shut down and
> expelled from the universe.
>
> The more people that learn about this industry at a younger age tend to
NOT
> get certifications because they know that they do not need them to
succeed.
> I do agree that a college education is a must, but don't go out and get a
> degree in MIS if you have the knowledge already. You would be better off
> without the degree in MIS and instead with a degree in another field for
> future use etc.
>
> Again, this is my opinion. I know there are people that disagree and
> consider that your opinion. I am not looking to be flamed. I am simply
> replying to my method of hiring etc.
>
>
>
>
>
> my"CybrSage" <CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
> newsbGcnYZSR7REFquiXTWJjg@co
mcast.com...
> You obviously do not have a real clue about reality.
>
> Say both you and I have equal skills and experiance, but I have my cisco
> certs and you do not. Who gets the job?
>
> Exactly, the owner's son. Wait, I mean me, with guy with the
> certifications, not you, the guy who is too good to get certifications...
>
> "Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:STQYa.160869$R92.11109@news2.central.cox.net...
> > Who could give two shits about any certification? It's the experience
you
> > get from contracting or at various places of employment... not the
> > certifications that you have... IMHO. The smartest people in the
industry
> > don't have certification. Certifications are joke in this industry.
> >
> > My ex-roommate didn't know shit about Cisco... paid some fly by night
> school
> > $1700 for his ccna... took test and failed it 5 times... finally passed
on
> > the 6th... I called him with the same questions about my router and why
> ftp
> > wasn't working etc... I asked him how to configure the router from a
> serial
> > prompt... (looking for config t command) and he couldn't tell me what it
> > was... he even went to say that you could only apply changes to the
router
> > via tftp transfers... yes, I am making my changes using notepad and
> tftping
> > them over... but shit... this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit.
> >
> > Just another example of why I believe it is what you know and not what
> your
> > resume' claims that you know.
> >
> > "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
> > news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> > Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> > those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> > Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
> > companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> > Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
> >
> >
>
>
>
| |
| CybrSage 2003-08-18, 11:24 pm |
| <sarcasm>
99% Wow. Only 75% of dentists can agree that sugar free gum is better for
your teeth. I am impressed!
</sarcasm>
"Bryce" <bryce@twmi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:n76_a.264293$BA.61344658@twister.columbus.rr.com...
> Everyone,
>
> From my consulting experience and dealing with hundreds of companies,
formal
> education is much more highly valued over certification by 99% of
companies
> out there. The guy with a Master of Science in Computer Science or
> Information Tech (or a PhD) will be seen as more educated and mature in
> understanding than someone with no degree and a bunch of "vendor specific"
> certifications. Why?
>
> Formal education is valued at the extremely high levels of most
corporations
> by the executives that run the companies. They don't consider you to be
> "cultured" and mature unless your highly educated in a formal manner.
> That's why there is such a high value placed on formal education - it
moves
> you up the "social ladder" in general; places you into a different "cast"
if
> you will.
>
> Moreover, the formal education proves a lateral and comprehensive
> understanding of a particular field. Certs are more specific in nature.
> Certs lack this "lateral" or all-encompassing type of knowledge
recognition.
> Someone with a graduate degree in IT is seen as being more mature and
> comprehensive in their knowledge than someone with no degree and certs
> alone. This is what I've learned from dealing face-to-face with
"Corporate
> America."
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> Yours,
>
> Bryce
>
>
>
> "John Agosta" <j_agosta@wideopenwest.kom> wrote in message
> news:E2mdnVrMOc0wVKiiU-KYvw@wideopenwest.com...
> >
> > "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
> > news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> > > Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
> > > those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
> > > Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other
BIG[c
olor=darkred]
> > > companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
> > > Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
> > >
> >
> > I think spending time wondering if Cisco will 'fold'
> > is about as silly as putting money on the Cubs to win the World Series.
> >
> > It ain't gonna happen.
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > -ja
> >
> >
>
>[/color]
| |
| Bernie 2003-08-18, 11:24 pm |
| On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:24:13 -0400, "CybrSage"
<CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote:
>Nah, not a tender spot. I just live and work near a state capitol.
>Certifications are required by the state to work at different levels.
>Someone without certification will have to work at a much lower level than
>someone with. Does not matter if they helped design ARPANet, no cert, no
>high level jobs.
>
>Too many places think a college degree means people know something.
Unless you propose to be a mind reader, you don't know exactly what
they think it means. Just because a company values a college degree
does not in any way mean they think you know the practicals of various
IT jobs. I will tell you a couple of things a degree means. It means
a person is *more likely* able to write complete sentences than
someone who doesn't have a degree. It means they are more likely able
to communicate verbally in a way that is effective. It means they
probably have a little more familiarity with history. It also means
they probably understand the scientific method a little better (which
translates directly into the ability to troubleshoot effectively BTW).
No guarantees mind you, just a higher likelihood; and hiring is all
about likelihood, not about certainty. So do those things have
anything directly to do with computers? No, not really. But I don't
know of many career fields where the ability to write/speak and sound
just remotely intelligent via written/spoken word doesn't have *some*
impact on business. For example, if I take my car to get a repair
estimate, and the mechanic sounds like a complete hick fresh from the
sticks, do I conclude that he must be a great mechanic? It may not be
a *fair* judgement, but probably not. Now maybe I end up taking my
car down the street somewhere else because I feel more comfortable
with the [assumed] ability of another mechanic that doesn't sound like
Goober.
As for reasons that some companies might want a degree:
1) Maybe they want someone with the real possibility of upward
mobility. It isn't exactly fair to hire someone knowing before hand
that they have little possibility to advance into other higher
positions (e.g. management).
2) Maybe they feel that a CS degree which teaches much more
fundamental things, like OS architecture, is better equipped in the
long run for more advanced concepts. Maybe they feel that the CS
experience in programming gives a person insight into how software
functions at a deeper level than another person.
3) Maybe they feel like someone who has lived in a 10x15 cell with
another person for several years is more likely to have remotely
decent people skills, such that they can get along in a team
environment.
5) Maybe they feel that a well rounded education makes a person more
likely to fit within a diverse corporate environment.
6) Maybe they feel that a system by which people are graded against
each other is more effective when attempting to pick out the bright
people. For example, you could pick those people that graduated with
certain levels of honors, with cert exams, you just know the person
passed.
>Most
>people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
>learning.
If you say that college is just book learning, then you obviously
haven't been to college, or maybe you enrolled but skipped class most
of the time. Sure, some classes force you to just memorize and
regurgitate. But far more than not force you to apply your learning
in new and unique ways in order to better assimilate it. This also
builds critical thinking skills, something that society as a whole is
sorely lacking in. Is a CS class where you have to program an
application just "book learning"? Is a math class where you spend the
semester proving theorems (on your own, not from a book) just "book
learning"? Is a class on rhetoric where you spend 90% of the time
writing papers and essays just "book learning"? Now maybe those don't
directly apply to "fixin 'puters" but they are hardly just "book
learning" courses. At least college classes force you to apply what
you are learning, cert exams just test your ability to remember,
*ESPECIALLY* if you use something like Test King.
>This means they know as much as someone who used a Test King to
>pass their cert exam. Anyone can take years to pick up a book at college
>and read. Anyone can take the college tests and pass those tests if they
>apply themselves. Having the market flooded with college graduate idiots
>with no past or present experience is what gives the college education a bad
>name.
I don't know that college has gotten a bad name as a whole. If I hire
someone that has little experience, but they pick up the job quickly
and have an aptitude for the work, then I don't rue the decision to
hire them, degree or not. I would if that person just floundered
around and didn't improve much, degree or not.
So the question is which category has a lower percentage of lemons,
not which categories have people without experience. The companies
have spoken on this issue. They didn't just spin the wheel of fortune
to come up with these hiring criteria...they do it because it works
for them.
>:-) Sorry for stealing your own words, slightly altering them, and using
>them. But the shoe definately fit...
>
>"Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:TbVZa.248473$R92.21377@news2.central.cox.net...
>> I must have hit a tender spot with you. I am sorry.
>>
>> I can tell you that 99% of the people that decide to get into computers
>> their Senior year in high school, will never be hired by myself or my firm
>> or the company I currently am employed by today. Anyone can pick up a book
>> and read. Anyone can take a test and pass that test if they apply
>> themselves. Having the market flooded with certified idiots with no past
>or
>> present experience is what gives the industry's certification programs a
>bad
>> name.
>>
>> I have nothing bad to say about Cisco at all however, the fly by night
>> companies that offer Cisco classes/certification tests etc and market
>their
>> business such as a business like ITT Technical Institute offers ("Looking
>to
>> change your life? Looking for a new career?") should be shut down and
>> expelled from the universe.
>>
>> The more people that learn about this industry at a younger age tend to
>NOT
>> get certifications because they know that they do not need them to
>succeed.
>> I do agree that a college education is a must, but don't go out and get a
>> degree in MIS if you have the knowledge already. You would be better off
>> without the degree in MIS and instead with a degree in another field for
>> future use etc.
>>
>> Again, this is my opinion. I know there are people that disagree and
>> consider that your opinion. I am not looking to be flamed. I am simply
>> replying to my method of hiring etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> my"CybrSage" <CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> newsbGcnYZSR7REFquiXTWJjg@co
mcast.com...
>> You obviously do not have a real clue about reality.
>>
>> Say both you and I have equal skills and experiance, but I have my cisco
>> certs and you do not. Who gets the job?
>>
>> Exactly, the owner's son. Wait, I mean me, with guy with the
>> certifications, not you, the guy who is too good to get certifications...
>>
>> "Eddie Haskal" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:STQYa.160869$R92.11109@news2.central.cox.net...
>> > Who could give two shits about any certification? It's the experience
> you
>> > get from contracting or at various places of employment... not the
>> > certifications that you have... IMHO. The smartest people in the
> industry
>> > don't have certification. Certifications are joke in this industry.
>> >
>> > My ex-roommate didn't know shit about Cisco... paid some fly by night
>> school
>> > $1700 for his ccna... took test and failed it 5 times... finally passed
> on
>> > the 6th... I called him with the same questions about my router and why
>> ftp
>> > wasn't working etc... I asked him how to configure the router from a
>> serial
>> > prompt... (looking for config t command) and he couldn't tell me what it
>> > was... he even went to say that you could only apply changes to the
> router
>> > via tftp transfers... yes, I am making my changes using notepad and
>> tftping
>> > them over... but shit... this guy has a cert and doesn't know jack shit.
>> >
>> > Just another example of why I believe it is what you know and not what
>> your
>> > resume' claims that you know.
>> >
>> > "news.iinet.net.au" <wecreate@iinet.net.au.nospam> wrote in message
>> > news:3f33acde$0$23612$5a62ac22
@freenews.iinet.net.au...
>> > Anybody ever consider if cisco as a company folds or got sold. All
>> > those certications may = dog crap. same goes for Microsoft!
>> > Although they may seem like big companys, but we have all seen other BIG
>> > companies die too over the years. Worldcomm etc.
>> > Makes me want a generic cert, or even a UNI degree over cert's.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
--Bernie
| |
|
|
"CybrSage" <CybrSage13@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E4GcnRT9gJneF9yiXTWJkA@co
mcast.com...
> :-) Sorry for stealing your own words, slightly altering them, and using
> them. But the shoe definately fit...
So you can't come up with an original thought and you can't spell. Maybe
some college would help.
| |
| Hansang Bae 2003-08-19, 1:24 am |
| In article < E4GcnRT9gJneF9yiXTWJkA@comcast
.com>, CybrSage13@Hotmail.com
says...
[snip]
> Too many places think a college degree means people know something. Most
> people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
> learning. This means they know as much as someone who used a Test King to
> pass their cert exam. Anyone can take years to pick up a book at college
> and read. Anyone can take the college tests and pass those tests if they
> apply themselves. Having the market flooded with college graduate idiots
> with no past or present experience is what gives the college education a bad
> name.
I don't know that it gives any college a bad name. Every program has
its share of bad apples. The difference between someone who went
through compsci course - for example - is that they understand the
underlying principles involved in networking. Assuming they
concentrated on networking and not software development or hardware
design.
As Rich Seifert once said, engineers typically know one more level of
abstraction than a "techie."
So while some "tech" may know to type "ip classless" (as an example)
they may not know how and why this affects packet forwarding.
--
hsb
"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
*************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
******************************
******************************
********
Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
******************************
******************************
********
| |
| Hansang Bae 2003-08-19, 1:24 am |
| In article < E4GcnRT9gJneF9yiXTWJkA@comcast
.com>, CybrSage13@Hotmail.com
says...
> Too many places think a college degree means people know something. Most
> people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
> learning.
[snip]
Oops, I forgot to add something. A prof of mine (Stregths of Materials,
in case anyone is curious) once told me that going to college is akin to
going around collecting tools for your toolbox (aka your noggin)
Someday, you'll land a job where they will teach you how to use those
tools, but they won't give you the tools. They expect you to have the
tools and know how to use them minimally. That's what going to college
is like ...for CS and engineering disciplines more so than A&S.
--
hsb
"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
*************** USE ROT13 TO SEE MY EMAIL ADDRESS ****************
******************************
******************************
********
Due to the volume of email that I receive, I may not not be able to
reply to emails sent to my account. Please post a followup instead.
******************************
******************************
********
| |
| Bernie 2003-08-19, 1:25 am |
| On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:18:41 GMT, Hansang Bae <uonr@alp.ee.pbz> wrote:
>In article < E4GcnRT9gJneF9yiXTWJkA@comcast
.com>, CybrSage13@Hotmail.com
>says...
>[snip]
>> Too many places think a college degree means people know something. Most
>> people graduate college without any practical experiance, only book
>> learning. This means they know as much as someone who used a Test King to
>> pass t | | |