alt.certification.cisco - Can't decide if CCNA -> CCNP -> CCIE is a good career path... advice welcome

Author

Can't decide if CCNA -> CCNP -> CCIE is a good career path... advice welcome

Jacob Friedmann

2002-12-20, 7:24 pm

Hi folks!
I am an embedded software engineer (mostly RTOS DDs), looking
around for a better career path. What's your experience with Cisco
certifications? Did they help you with your careers? Are they
respected in the industry?
I know _how_ to get them (how to study and where to take exams) - I
am more interested in what you think about their usefulness vs cost
and time and energy you need to get them. I am in US so I am mostly
interested in USAns' experiences but other furriner types: please feel
free to share too.

Jacob Friedmann

2002-12-23, 5:24 pm

Evan Wagner <ewagner@radix.net> wrote in message news:< PDKdnVsRcsgxZZ6jXTWcoA@comcast
.com>...
> Greetings,
>
> I obtained my first Cisco certification in 1996 and I'd say somewhere
> until ~2000-2001 many of their certifications were highly regarded.
> Today the CCIE still is, if the individual has experience to back it up.
> 2-4 years ago some certifications helped my career (less so Cisco than
> others).

Thanks Evan!
What were the "others"? I am thinking MCP -> MCSE as well, or do you
have some others in mind?

>
> Cisco certifications are still useful if you spend less money taking 4+
> day courses and more on-the-job, individual or study group time learning
> the various technologies. It is like many things, if you do not work
> with the equipment on a consistent basis, it will not stay embedded in
> your brain cells very long.

I agree, I am hoping I'd get a job based on my certs and they'd be
applicable immediately.
Having said that, I've found that I remember algorithms I learnt in
basic Algorithms course, though I seldom use them. No doubt it's the
same with "what functions to choose first for Integration-by-Parts" or
the periodic table for some of us; some things stick in your mind just
because they are interesting.

>
> You mileage will undoubtedly vary.
>
> Best of luck to you.

Thanks for your helpful response.

>
> --Evan
>
>
> Jacob Friedmann wrote:
> > Hi folks!
> > I am an embedded software engineer (mostly RTOS DDs), looking
> > around for a better career path. What's your experience with Cisco
> > certifications? Did they help you with your careers? Are they
> > respected in the industry?
> > I know _how_ to get them (how to study and where to take exams) - I
> > am more interested in what you think about their usefulness vs cost
> > and time and energy you need to get them. I am in US so I am mostly
> > interested in USAns' experiences but other furriner types: please feel
> > free to share too.

sbirn

2002-12-24, 8:24 am

Jacob Friedmann wrote:

> I agree, I am hoping I'd get a job based on my certs and they'd be
> applicable immediately.

You will get a job based upon your knowledge and experience. Those two
alone should be enough to get you in the door.

A non-CCIE cert might help you get in the door with some companies that have
their priorities a little confused, but in any event, they will not close
the deal. If you can't sell yourself on *EXPERIENCE* as well as knowledge
in the interview, then don't bother with the certs now.

You are far better off finding a junior role under a good admin and making
peanuts for cash while you gain valuable experience and real-world
knowledge.

When I am inspecting resumes, I look for a very clear and direct progression
in a person's career. If I see a large number of certs and a lack of
actual experience, that is the first resume to hit the garbage bin for me.
I don't want someone who can quote a line out of a book - I want someone
who can do something useful. My experience is that people who focus
heavily on certifications and not enough on actual work carry their
incorrect priorities onto the job and I want nothing of it.

Steve

Evan Wagner

2002-12-24, 10:24 am

Evan Wagner <ewagner@radix.net> wrote:
Jacob,

Jacob,

During the past ~20 years, it is a rare instance where I walk into
a single vendor environment. The more you learn across the board
the better off you will be.

Most of the certs I've picked up were more for the benefit of past
employers rather than my own desire. I have picked up a few on my
own here and there but they've never been top on my list.

The "other" certs that I hinted to included 3Com, HP, M$ and Sun.
I've never counted on certs for anything more than getting me in
the door for an interview which has worked well for me over
the years.

Finding a job based on certifications alone is very difficult today
since there are so many people with past experience out of work in
the states competing for the same jobs as new blood like yourself.
Your best bet would be to find a low level position with room to
grow along the lines of what sbirn's follow up suggests.

--Evan

> Greetings,

> I obtained my first Cisco certification in 1996 and I'd say somewhere
> until ~2000-2001 many of their certifications were highly regarded.
> Today the CCIE still is, if the individual has experience to back it up.
> 2-4 years ago some certifications helped my career (less so Cisco than
> others).

> Cisco certifications are still useful if you spend less money taking 4+
> day courses and more on-the-job, individual or study group time learning
> the various technologies. It is like many things, if you do not work
> with the equipment on a consistent basis, it will not stay embedded in
> your brain cells very long.

> You mileage will undoubtedly vary.

> Best of luck to you.

> --Evan

> Jacob Friedmann wrote:
>> Hi folks!
>> I am an embedded software engineer (mostly RTOS DDs), looking
>> around for a better career path. What's your experience with Cisco
>> certifications? Did they help you with your careers? Are they
>> respected in the industry?
>> I know _how_ to get them (how to study and where to take exams) - I
>> am more interested in what you think about their usefulness vs cost
>> and time and energy you need to get them. I am in US so I am mostly
>> interested in USAns' experiences but other furriner types: please feel
>> free to share too.

Dave

2002-12-26, 9:24 pm

>
> When I am inspecting resumes, I look for a very clear and direct progression
> in a person's career. If I see a large number of certs and a lack of
> actual experience, that is the first resume to hit the garbage bin for me.
> I don't want someone who can quote a line out of a book - I want someone
> who can do something useful. My experience is that people who focus
> heavily on certifications and not enough on actual work carry their
> incorrect priorities onto the job and I want nothing of it.
>
> Steve

Steve,

I find your response arrogant. How the heck is anyone supposed to get
experience without first getting a job? It's the perverbial chicken
before the egg syndrome. I find that most hiring managers have tunnel
vision. For example, you really don't want to get someone who is
qualified exactly to your requirements. Why? Becuase there is going to
be no chanllenge for that individual. Have you ever approached it
from this angle? I know that I generally shoot for positions that I am
almost qualified for and have faith that my potential employer will
have faith in me! Who wants someone who has already mastered the
skills required for the position? As far as certifications, do your
reserach. Yea, the CCNA is pretty easy. But the CCNP is NOT easy. It
takes a person with a great deal of motivation to self-teach
themselves the subject matter and then get certified in it. I believe
many hiring managers are too narrowly focused in their attempt to get
talent. Read between the lines when you look at resumes. The
candidate you pass up may be your best pick.

M.B.

Bernie

2002-12-27, 12:24 pm

On 27 Dec 2002 14:10:01 GMT, ylouis2@aol.com (Ylouis2) wrote:

>M.B.
>
>You have a very good point. It was so devastating for myself when I was looking
>for a cisco job with my CCNP and without experience and I was treated like a
>piece of something. I would go to a job fair and recruiters would run after me
>and shake my hand and then when they saw I had no experience they would look
>for the next hand to shake. Unfortunately, recruiters compete with each other
>for an available position and they know when they send a resume of someone
>without experience they will not WIN.
>
>The truth is that when a company hire someone with a certification that person
>will progress very fast.

Maybe. What about the certified person that essentially cheated the
whole way through by braindumping? That person won't progress very
fast because they will be too busy leaching off everyone else's work.
I work with a few of those types. I would say that if you took your
statement above and replaced "certification" with "thirst for
knowledge about networking" then it would absolutely be true in the
vast majority of cases. I've seen too many deadbeat, lazy,
no-desire-to-learn-having certified people to believe that *any*
certified person is going to progress very fast. I've also seen up
and coming new guys that are truly great, but it is their thirst for
learning that makes them great, not the paper they accomplished. The
industry didn't develop an anti-paper attitude our of the blue--many,
many bad paper certified engineers started are at the source of this
attitude by being simply atrocious on the job.

>You will be just a few inches closer to each
>technology rather than meters away when you do not have your certification.
>When I got my first job without experience because of my CCNP I was a little
>confused the first few days but then I was full speed working like an expert.
>Many that were already working there they got the Cisco position due to the
>fact that they wre already working for the company and they had no
>certifications or just the CCNA. They were so slow learning because they had no
>idea about OSPF, BGP, and very little knowledge of WAN and much more. They had
>3-4 years experience doing the same thing over and over again and then they
>would come to me for in depth information on OSPF, Frame relay, ISDN, and more.
>
>Yes hiring someone with certifications and without experience is a big risk
>but it will pay BIG TIME later on. I do not blame recruiters though because
>they know that the companies will rarely take a chance an hire someone without
>experience. BUT there is always a first time. By keep trying you increase your
>chances to hiting the times that companies hire fresh people without experience
>and willing to train.

I think I understand a little better now the advice you give. You
seem to be one of the rare people that actually spent time learning
the technology rather than the test answers. And now you tend to
project your attitude on the typical cert candidate--i.e. that the
typical person getting certified without experience is going to come
out knowing OSPF like the back of their hand and blow away all the
other guys on the job.

Now I don't doubt your experience at all. Mine was very similar in
that I studied to learn first and pass second (way back when...). I
read RFCs to understand how things work (when there is no exam to take
on that subject). However, having been around this NG for the past 3+
years, I have learned that the majority of people coming through here
don't fit this mold. All too often the exact opposite of what you
describe happens--the CCNP guy asking in here what the hell is
happening on his router when it turns out to be rather simple. Or we
see people wanting *only* to study the questions that will be on the
exam--i.e. they don't want to learn BGP, they just want to learn the
list of well-known communities because they heard there was an exam
question on well-known communities. I can count on my hands the
number of general "how this thing works" questions asked over the last
three years, but if I had a nickel for every "what is the answer to
this test question" question asked, I'd be a very rich man. [If you
hang around this group for 6 months, I think you will be saying the
exact same things I am saying eventually.]

My general experience in this industry has been that the typical
certified without experience guy is not that knowledgeable--put him on
the job and he *won't* wow anybody, but rather disappoint them. And
we hear all the time from manager types in here about how the CCNP
they just hired absolutely sucks. In fact, I remember a specific
thread from an engineer here who was doing the technical interview for
his company and the initial four CCNA/NP candidates had absolutely no
clue in the technical interview (the thread was a suggestion to cert
candidates that they spend time learning concepts, not test answers).
The people like yourself tend to be the exceptions. But this is true
in life as well. The exception is the guy that didn't drink his way
through college and only study the night before an exam, but rather
studied to learn each subject for the sake and love of learning.

>Just keep trying and do not give up if you got no experience. Everyone starts
>without it anyways. :-)))

True, and I agree. What I would personally suggest is that a person
who is trying to get into the industry should spend time studying
various technologies for the sake of learning them not just to pass an
exam. I'm not saying to not take the tests. I am saying that if you
are going to take the test, spend time learning the concepts really
well. I have found that the breaks tend to come from those who give
technical interviews, not those that just simply gamble on
non-experienced people. The primary defense that is used to weed out
the paper people is the "technical interview." Now on that interview,
you cannot braindump. Your only preparation is to *really* learn the
stuff because you will not get warmed over CCNP questions. So if you
are able to demonstrate that you know things like the interframe gap
or the effect of PTMP on the LSA database, then the manager is going
to come to the belief that you *do* know your stuff whether or not you
have experience. They might take a chance on you believing you to
take to it like a duck to water. But if you go in and only answer
questions that were similar to CCNP-type questions and nothing more,
then the conclusion is that you are paper.

Simply put, I find that the breaks are given to non-experienced people
that demonstrate a great knowledge, not to those that just have paper.
Given that premise, I recommend that a person who is trying to break
into the industry should read books like Doyle's (even if they aren't
going to attempt the CCIE for a while) and other vendor neutral books
on topics like Ethernet, ATM, etc.

Lastly, I'll point out that about 2-3 years ago, many managers were
willing to take a chance on someone who brought nothing more than a
certification to their interview. But slowly, one by one, managers
got burned by this. They took a chance and the guy turned out to be a
deadbeat. Well, that is now one less manager that will take a chance
on a newly certified person. Now some took a chance and it paid off,
but statistically this is the minority. Given that you are likely
dealing with a manager that has been burned (or knows someone that was
burned) by a paper certified individual, you need to bring more than
the certification for them to give you a chance...like bring a deep
knowledge level to the technical interview, or bring a great attitude,
or bring all the other intangibles that managers look for. The point
is that you have to have something "extra" to get the break these
days.

--Bernie

Ylouis2

2002-12-27, 7:24 pm

Bernie,

You are absolutely right. I was refering to the certified CCNPs with the
passion to learn and I should mention that. Now if they never touched a router
and passed the CCNP then that is another story. I would also blame the
interviewers for hiring people like that. Some interviewers have no idea what
they are looking for or what to ask. You do not ask someone for the different
layers and the packet sizes because that is coming straight from the exams. If
they hire someone and they find out later on that they did a mistake then who
is to blame?

I actually heard of a CCIE that never took the lab exam and someone else took
it in their place. I was so surprised when I took the CCIE lab exam and they
never asked for ID.

>>M.B.
>>
>>You have a very good point. It was so devastating for myself when I was
>looking
>>for a cisco job with my CCNP and without experience and I was treated like a
>>piece of something. I would go to a job fair and recruiters would run after
>me
>>and shake my hand and then when they saw I had no experience they would look
>>for the next hand to shake. Unfortunately, recruiters compete with each
>other
>>for an available position and they know when they send a resume of someone
>>without experience they will not WIN.
>>
>>The truth is that when a company hire someone with a certification that
>person
>>will progress very fast.
>
>Maybe. What about the certified person that essentially cheated the
>whole way through by braindumping? That person won't progress very
>fast because they will be too busy leaching off everyone else's work.
>I work with a few of those types. I would say that if you took your
>statement above and replaced "certification" with "thirst for
>knowledge about networking" then it would absolutely be true in the
>vast majority of cases. I've seen too many deadbeat, lazy,
>no-desire-to-learn-having certified people to believe that *any*
>certified person is going to progress very fast. I've also seen up
>and coming new guys that are truly great, but it is their thirst for
>learning that makes them great, not the paper they accomplished. The
>industry didn't develop an anti-paper attitude our of the blue--many,
>many bad paper certified engineers started are at the source of this
>attitude by being simply atrocious on the job.
>
>>You will be just a few inches closer to each
>>technology rather than meters away when you do not have your certification.
>>When I got my first job without experience because of my CCNP I was a little
>>confused the first few days but then I was full speed working like an
>expert.
>>Many that were already working there they got the Cisco position due to the
>>fact that they wre already working for the company and they had no
>>certifications or just the CCNA. They were so slow learning because they had
>no
>>idea about OSPF, BGP, and very little knowledge of WAN and much more. They
>had
>>3-4 years experience doing the same thing over and over again and then they
>>would come to me for in depth information on OSPF, Frame relay, ISDN, and
>more.
>>
>>Yes hiring someone with certifications and without experience is a big risk
>>but it will pay BIG TIME later on. I do not blame recruiters though because
>>they know that the companies will rarely take a chance an hire someone
>without
>>experience. BUT there is always a first time. By keep trying you increase
>your
>>chances to hiting the times that companies hire fresh people without
>experience
>>and willing to train.
>
>I think I understand a little better now the advice you give. You
>seem to be one of the rare people that actually spent time learning
>the technology rather than the test answers. And now you tend to
>project your attitude on the typical cert candidate--i.e. that the
>typical person getting certified without experience is going to come
>out knowing OSPF like the back of their hand and blow away all the
>other guys on the job.
>
>Now I don't doubt your experience at all. Mine was very similar in
>that I studied to learn first and pass second (way back when...). I
>read RFCs to understand how things work (when there is no exam to take
>on that subject). However, having been around this NG for the past 3+
>years, I have learned that the majority of people coming through here
>don't fit this mold. All too often the exact opposite of what you
>describe happens--the CCNP guy asking in here what the hell is
>happening on his router when it turns out to be rather simple. Or we
>see people wanting *only* to study the questions that will be on the
>exam--i.e. they don't want to learn BGP, they just want to learn the
>list of well-known communities because they heard there was an exam
>question on well-known communities. I can count on my hands the
>number of general "how this thing works" questions asked over the last
>three years, but if I had a nickel for every "what is the answer to
>this test question" question asked, I'd be a very rich man. [If you
>hang around this group for 6 months, I think you will be saying the
>exact same things I am saying eventually.]
>
>My general experience in this industry has been that the typical
>certified without experience guy is not that knowledgeable--put him on
>the job and he *won't* wow anybody, but rather disappoint them. And
>we hear all the time from manager types in here about how the CCNP
>they just hired absolutely sucks. In fact, I remember a specific
>thread from an engineer here who was doing the technical interview for
>his company and the initial four CCNA/NP candidates had absolutely no
>clue in the technical interview (the thread was a suggestion to cert
>candidates that they spend time learning concepts, not test answers).
>The people like yourself tend to be the exceptions. But this is true
>in life as well. The exception is the guy that didn't drink his way
>through college and only study the night before an exam, but rather
>studied to learn each subject for the sake and love of learning.
>
>>Just keep trying and do not give up if you got no experience. Everyone
>starts
>>without it anyways. :-)))
>
>True, and I agree. What I would personally suggest is that a person
>who is trying to get into the industry should spend time studying
>various technologies for the sake of learning them not just to pass an
>exam. I'm not saying to not take the tests. I am saying that if you
>are going to take the test, spend time learning the concepts really
>well. I have found that the breaks tend to come from those who give
>technical interviews, not those that just simply gamble on
>non-experienced people. The primary defense that is used to weed out
>the paper people is the "technical interview." Now on that interview,
>you cannot braindump. Your only preparation is to *really* learn the
>stuff because you will not get warmed over CCNP questions. So if you
>are able to demonstrate that you know things like the interframe gap
>or the effect of PTMP on the LSA database, then the manager is going
>to come to the belief that you *do* know your stuff whether or not you
>have experience. They might take a chance on you believing you to
>take to it like a duck to water. But if you go in and only answer
>questions that were similar to CCNP-type questions and nothing more,
>then the conclusion is that you are paper.
>
>Simply put, I find that the breaks are given to non-experienced people
>that demonstrate a great knowledge, not to those that just have paper.
>Given that premise, I recommend that a person who is trying to break
>into the industry should read books like Doyle's (even if they aren't
>going to attempt the CCIE for a while) and other vendor neutral books
>on topics like Ethernet, ATM, etc.
>
>Lastly, I'll point out that about 2-3 years ago, many managers were
>willing to take a chance on someone who brought nothing more than a
>certification to their interview. But slowly, one by one, managers
>got burned by this. They took a chance and the guy turned out to be a
>deadbeat. Well, that is now one less manager that will take a chance
>on a newly certified person. Now some took a chance and it paid off,
>but statistically this is the minority. Given that you are likely
>dealing with a manager that has been burned (or knows someone that was
>burned) by a paper certified individual, you need to bring more than
>the certification for them to give you a chance...like bring a deep
>knowledge level to the technical interview, or bring a great attitude,
>or bring all the other intangibles that managers look for. The point
>is that you have to have something "extra" to get the break these
>days.
>
>
>--Bernie
>

Dave

2002-12-28, 3:24 pm

sbirn <sbirnNOSPAM@NOSPAMsecurity.org.il> wrote in message news:<lGZN9.59828$F2h1.56074@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> Jacob Friedmann wrote:
>
> > I agree, I am hoping I'd get a job based on my certs and they'd be
> > applicable immediately.
>
> You will get a job based upon your knowledge and experience. Those two
> alone should be enough to get you in the door.
>
> A non-CCIE cert might help you get in the door with some companies that have
> their priorities a little confused, but in any event, they will not close
> the deal. If you can't sell yourself on *EXPERIENCE* as well as knowledge
> in the interview, then don't bother with the certs now.
>
> You are far better off finding a junior role under a good admin and making
> peanuts for cash while you gain valuable experience and real-world
> knowledge.
>
> When I am inspecting resumes, I look for a very clear and direct progression
> in a person's career. If I see a large number of certs and a lack of
> actual experience, that is the first resume to hit the garbage bin for me.
> I don't want someone who can quote a line out of a book - I want someone
> who can do something useful. My experience is that people who focus
> heavily on certifications and not enough on actual work carry their
> incorrect priorities onto the job and I want nothing of it.
>
> Steve

Steve,

I see you did not respond to my posting earlier. Could it be that you
know I am right ??

M.B.

Vaughan

2002-12-29, 8:24 pm

One thing I might add here too. Is Steve, stop and think for two seconds on
one other point. If this individual has no experience but didn't even have
any certifications, chances are his/her resume wouldn't have even landed on
your desk. The certifications at least got you to look, and for most thats
what they hope fore, to be noticed then invited. Career changes aren't easy.
One other point, is when applying to most companies with 2, 3 years
experience with no certifications will land their resume in the same
direction as the resume with no experience and certifications, filed under
"G".

The industry has done this to themselves. In 99, individuals only had to
enter college, have a firm understanding of getting a server up and running
and they had a job. These people would quit school because of the great pay.
Other people would get the certifications, and they too would get a good
paying job. The shudder that happened through the high tech sector in 2000
is still vibrating and will take some time to let the dust settle. All these
grads finishing school in a field of work that they entered because there
showed a promising future. This was created by company demands for techs,
hype from newspapers, stock markets, governemnts pushing and recruiting
highschools and pushing students in this field of work. Now there is a glut
in the market with a surplus of manpower. What were these individulas to do,
quit ? Thats a lot of money to drop, to not at least follow it through.

My personal opinion is the industry should adopt an "apprenticeship"
program. Force these companies to hire and train, and only after so many
hours be allowed to write these exams from Cisco, Microsoft, and Novell. Now
we all know this never going to happen because each and every comapny wants
to be the first up and going, so they will continue to try and rape the
"resources" for the best and not replenish it. Something like what happened
in the dirty 30's, ever read about the great dustbowl, farmers raped the
land and never replenished the nutrients and once very fertile land turned
into a desert.

So I think in actual fact the only choice most companies are going to have
to keep this replenished is start accepting the certified techs. Give them
the experience. Lord knows they won't get hired with a couple years
experience or with no certs. And I think even an individual had 15 years
with no certs in a company with no "big" recognizable name, would suffer
also.

Vaughan

"Dave" <mrbedell@home.com> wrote in message
news:55930fe9.0212281309.7bef6684@posting.google.com...
> sbirn <sbirnNOSPAM@NOSPAMsecurity.org.il> wrote in message
news:<lGZN9.59828$F2h1.56074@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
> > Jacob Friedmann wrote:
> >
> > > I agree, I am hoping I'd get a job based on my certs and they'd be
> > > applicable immediately.
> >
> > You will get a job based upon your knowledge and experience. Those two
> > alone should be enough to get you in the door.
> >
> > A non-CCIE cert might help you get in the door with some companies that
have
> > their priorities a little confused, but in any event, they will not
close

> > the deal. If you can't sell yourself on *EXPERIENCE* as well as
knowledge
> > in the interview, then don't bother with the certs now.
> >
> > You are far better off finding a junior role under a good admin and
making
> > peanuts for cash while you gain valuable experience and real-world
> > knowledge.
> >
> > When I am inspecting resumes, I look for a very clear and direct
progression
> > in a person's career. If I see a large number of certs and a lack of
> > actual experience, that is the first resume to hit the garbage bin for
me.
> > I don't want someone who can quote a line out of a book - I want someone
> > who can do something useful. My experience is that people who focus
> > heavily on certifications and not enough on actual work carry their
> > incorrect priorities onto the job and I want nothing of it.
> >
> > Steve
>
>
> Steve,
>
> I see you did not respond to my posting earlier. Could it be that you
> know I am right ??
>
> M.B.

Bernie

2002-12-30, 12:24 am

On Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:15:16 -0800, "Vaughan"
<theduke32_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>One thing I might add here too. Is Steve, stop and think for two seconds on
>one other point. If this individual has no experience but didn't even have
>any certifications, chances are his/her resume wouldn't have even landed on
>your desk. The certifications at least got you to look, and for most thats
>what they hope fore, to be noticed then invited. Career changes aren't easy.
>One other point, is when applying to most companies with 2, 3 years
>experience with no certifications will land their resume in the same
>direction as the resume with no experience and certifications, filed under
>"G".
>
>The industry has done this to themselves. In 99, individuals only had to
>enter college, have a firm understanding of getting a server up and running
>and they had a job. These people would quit school because of the great pay.
>Other people would get the certifications, and they too would get a good
>paying job. The shudder that happened through the high tech sector in 2000
>is still vibrating and will take some time to let the dust settle. All these
>grads finishing school in a field of work that they entered because there
>showed a promising future. This was created by company demands for techs,

I don't believe that the demand was real. IOW, companies were fed the
line that if they don't run the latest and greatest hardware and
software and constantly upgrade that they will be left behind by their
competitors. This is an obvious lie (in hindsight) because the
reverse has been proven--that those that spent good dollar after bad
dollar are no longer in business, those that were more prudent in
expenditures are surviving today. So that demand that seemed to exist
had no real substance behind it. Colossal collapses are usually
fueled by a preceding false demand and colossal overbuilding.

>hype from newspapers, stock markets, governemnts pushing and recruiting
>highschools and pushing students in this field of work. Now there is a glut
>in the market with a surplus of manpower. What were these individulas to do,
>quit ? Thats a lot of money to drop, to not at least follow it through.

I'm not sure which group you are talking about. Are you talking about
those that are in the industry or those that are in school heading
into the industry? If the latter, the suggestion that they must
follow through to not drop the money is not quite evident. I don't
know many people that have college degrees that are doing something
directly related, and yet many of those people have great careers in
whatever field they are in. Just like people with Humanities degrees
can get jobs in the IT sector, people with CS degrees can get jobs in
banking. It seems that more often than not people get jobs doing
other things, so I don't follow that EE's and CS' grads *have* to go
into IT jobs especially when not a lot of hiring is going on right now
in this field.

>My personal opinion is the industry should adopt an "apprenticeship"
>program. Force these companies to hire and train, and only after so many
>hours be allowed to write these exams from Cisco, Microsoft, and Novell. Now
>we all know this never going to happen because each and every comapny wants
>to be the first up and going, so they will continue to try and rape the
>"resources" for the best and not replenish it. Something like what happened
>in the dirty 30's, ever read about the great dustbowl, farmers raped the
>land and never replenished the nutrients and once very fertile land turned
>into a desert.

I don't disagree with your general comments, but I think they are a
little misplaced given the state of affairs. What you are suggesting
is that if a hiring manager today has a choice to hire an experienced
person at a fire-sale price or a person that has no experience, that
he should hire the inexperienced person based only on philosophical
reasons (to fertilize the future workforce). That is just not going
to happen because it doesn't make sense. Now when the job market
picks back up, these are good suggestions.

If all your land right now is very fertile, you go ahead and plant.
You then replace the nutrients afterwards, because you cannot
"replace" them before they are used. The workforce today is like an
extremely fertile field--tons of experts out there needing work. I
prefer to use the NFL draft as an analogy. If you had the option to
chose a Hiesman trophy winner or a player that is going to be a 5 year
project, which do you choose? It is certainly possible that neither
will pan out, but which is more likely to work out for you? The
choice is obvious because you play the odds. With the workforce, the
odds are that the experienced person will work out better than the guy
who you have to train to do the job. And if you can get experience at
fire-sale prices, why would anyone even think of hiring the
inexperienced today? In the past at least the inexperienced had one
thing in their favor, that they could be hired cheaply, and that gave
many companies the incentive to hire the lesser experienced. But now
experienced people can be hired just as cheaply.

This is just the state of affairs today. I don't like it any more
than anyone else. But I don't fault employers for hiring experience
first when it just makes sense statistically to do so. I'm hoping
this year picks up just as much as anybody. Until it picks back up
any suggestions about apprenticeship programs or about it being better
to hire people that can grow into the position over someone that
already fits the position are going to fall on deaf ears.

>So I think in actual fact the only choice most companies are going to have
>to keep this replenished is start accepting the certified techs. Give them
>the experience. Lord knows they won't get hired with a couple years
>experience or with no certs. And I think even an individual had 15 years
>with no certs in a company with no "big" recognizable name, would suffer
>also.

When demand picks back up, yes. But I think talking about
replenishing something that we have a glut of is a bit premature.
That would be like China reversing their policy on population control
saying, "We must make sure that our population is replenished!"

--Bernie

Bernie

2002-12-30, 2:24 am

On 26 Dec 2002 18:23:44 -0800, mrbedell@home.com (Dave) wrote:

>>
>> When I am inspecting resumes, I look for a very clear and direct progression
>> in a person's career. If I see a large number of certs and a lack of
>> actual experience, that is the first resume to hit the garbage bin for me.
>> I don't want someone who can quote a line out of a book - I want someone
>> who can do something useful. My experience is that people who focus
>> heavily on certifications and not enough on actual work carry their
>> incorrect priorities onto the job and I want nothing of it.
>>
>> Steve
>
>Steve,
>
>I find your response arrogant. How the heck is anyone supposed to get
>experience without first getting a job? It's the perverbial chicken
>before the egg syndrome.

No it is not. If you research this question in the archives of this
very group you can find the answer to this question many times over.
Here is the summary of the answer: 1) Charities love free work, use
some of the time that you would be looking for a job by working for
charities doing network stuff. 2) Get a job doing related tasks that
will give you exposure to take the bull by the horns and move into
another position. For example, I worked at a company that was small
enough to not have a full-time network guru--it was previously by
committee, so I took charge of the situation and got that added to my
list of responsibilities by proving I could do it. So I got my first
experience without getting a "networking job."

Much has been said about staying positive recently. I'd add that in
addition to staying positive, people need to sharpen their problem
solving skills. Don't look at an obstacle and just throw your hands
up and say, "Well how can I possibly get over *THAT*?!?!?" [It should
be pointed out that this isn't exactly the positive attitude either.]
Well, if you want to get over it bad enough, then you'll find a way.
Figure it out. Be creative. Attack the problem with your mind. Set
out to solve the problem of getting experience. It *is* solvable, but
no one is going to hand it to you on a silver platter if you don't
desire it enough to do something about it yourself. Meanwhile, stay
positive.

> I find that most hiring managers have tunnel
>vision. For example, you really don't want to get someone who is
>qualified exactly to your requirements. Why? Becuase there is going to
>be no chanllenge for that individual.

Come on, you don't really believe this do you? Do you realize that
staying up to speed in a dynamic and constantly changing industry is a
constant challenge. Just ask the gurus around here if they feel
challenged at their job. Hansang, do you experience challenges at
your job? No doubt you are qualified for it, so that is not a
question.

Everyday I look over and see a pile of things that I want to learn and
do, and yet I am qualified to do my current job. I don't feel
underchallenged. Some days I feel overwhelmed, in fact.

As for not wanting someone who is qualified if such a person is
available for hire, "a bird in the hand is better than two in the
bush." That proverb seems to apply nicely to this situation.

>Have you ever approached it
>from this angle? I know that I generally shoot for positions that I am
>almost qualified for and have faith that my potential employer will
>have faith in me! Who wants someone who has already mastered the
>skills required for the position?

I do. The odds are much better that a person who has mastered the
skills will not meltdown your multi-million dollar network. I don't
want someone learning the job on my dime unless I am paying them
substantially less than an experienced person. But today there is a
fire-sale on experienced people so you can get a bargain *and* the
mastery of skills in one package.

>As far as certifications, do your
>reserach. Yea, the CCNA is pretty easy. But the CCNP is NOT easy.

I've done both and I don't believe that the CCNP is that difficult.
Simply multiply the time involved for the CCNA by four and you have a
CCNP. Instead of one book and a test, you have four books and four
tests.

>It
>takes a person with a great deal of motivation to self-teach
>themselves the subject matter and then get certified in it.

Yes it does. But since you accuse managers of not placing themselves
in your position, try placing yourself in their position for a moment.
Ok, a guy comes to you with a cert and no experience. Do you know
whether he simply cheated by studying and memorizing test questions or
whether he went through the long, difficult process of learning the
material by himself? What guarantee do you have that the person isn't
one of the hoards of people we see coming through here asking for
cheating material, AKA braindumps? And of course a person that cheats
on the exam is going to lie to the manager about studying day and
night and playing with all kinds of equipment, so asking how they got
their cert isn't going to bring any enlightenment to the situation.
So you see that from a manager's perspective they cannot assume that
just anyone with a CCNP or CCNA has actually even cracked a book. Why
should they assume that any CCNA or CCNP has the self motivation that
you say that you have? Maybe you *are* very motivated. But then
again just about every job candidate under the sun also claims to be
"motivated" and "hard-working" in the interview, even the lazy ones.
At the end of the day, the certification itself provides very little
reassurance to a manager in today's environment.

>I believe
>many hiring managers are too narrowly focused in their attempt to get
>talent. Read between the lines when you look at resumes. The
>candidate you pass up may be your best pick.

Maybe. But statistically, the odds are in favor of the best pick
being the one with the best qualifications. You can't get much from
an interview because most people say all the things they are supposed
to say. So you go with the statistics. When you do that, sure, you
take a chance that you might overlook a diamond in the rough. But you
are still more likely to come out better off by playing the best odds.

So instead of trying to change the managers, you might try giving them
what they want. There are a long list of things that enhance your
chances of landing jobs. For example, being in the armed services (in
the past) is considered a big plus. Now maybe enlisting is not an
option at this stage of life, but there are other things that you can
do to enhance your chances. I'd suggest doing some research on the
hiring process and start doing the things that will start tilting the
odds in your favor. If it turns out that employers like seeing
charity work on your resume, then volunteer at the Salvation Army. If
it turns out that having a tattoo is popular among managers, get a
tattoo. Whatever it takes. You are not going to change the managers
so you might as well play the game to the best of your ability.

BTW, there have been some excellent posts on this subject as well in
the archives of this group. Lookup some posts by a person named
Freakster from about a year and a half ago.

--Bernie

Bernie

2002-12-30, 2:24 am

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 01:52:46 -0600, Bernie <Bernie@weekend.com> wrote:

I'll also add that if I am going to hire someone who is wanting me to
let them grow into the position (i.e. they don't have all the skills
required), then I don't mind so long as they are willing to let their
pay grow into the full pay too. Hey, that street goes both ways. If
you bring 3/4 of the skills you get 3/4 of the pay. Unfortunately in
today's job market pay is pretty low for those with experience too.

--Bernie

Hansang Bae

2002-12-30, 11:24 am

> On 26 Dec 2002 18:23:44 -0800, mrbedell@home.com (Dave) wrote:
> > I find that most hiring managers have tunnel
> >vision. For example, you really don't want to get someone who is
> >qualified exactly to your requirements. Why? Becuase there is going to
> >be no chanllenge for that individual.

In article
<CEBF2D3E2DB06545.38BC9EE6737DEA14.6FFE7786A6C924AA@lp.airnews.net>,
Bernie@weekend.com says...
> Come on, you don't really believe this do you? Do you realize that
> staying up to speed in a dynamic and constantly changing industry is a
> constant challenge. Just ask the gurus around here if they feel
> challenged at their job. Hansang, do you experience challenges at
> your job? No doubt you are qualified for it, so that is not a
> question.

Actually, it's like drinking from a firehose everyday. Granted, the
network I play in is pretty large, and I do get involved in many of the
"level 3" troubleshooting. But I have a problem that I'm trying to
solve and haven't found a solution yet. I was actually getting ready to
post asking for some help! It's up to the manager and the company
culture to keep their employees motivated and challenged. If you look
at the surveys of IT people, money is *not* at the #1 spot.

--

hsb

"Somehow I imagined this experience would be more rewarding" Calvin
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Vaughan

2002-12-31, 6:24 pm

> I don't believe that the demand was real. IOW, companies were fed the
> line that if they don't run the latest and greatest hardware and
> software and constantly upgrade that they will be left behind by their
> competitors.

The demand wasn't as great as what everyone boasted, but none the less it
has still helped cause what we have today.

> >hype from newspapers, stock markets, governemnts pushing and recruiting
> >highschools and pushing students in this field of work. Now there is a
glut
> >in the market with a surplus of manpower. What were these individulas to
do,
> >quit ? Thats a lot of money to drop, to not at least follow it through.
>
> I'm not sure which group you are talking about. Are you talking about
> those that are in the industry or those that are in school heading
> into the industry? If the latter, the suggestion that they must
> follow through to not drop the money is not quite evident. I don't
> know many people that have college degrees that are doing something
> directly related, and yet many of those people have great careers in
> whatever field they are in. Just like people with Humanities degrees
> can get jobs in the IT sector, people with CS degrees can get jobs in
> banking. It seems that more often than not people get jobs doing
> other things, so I don't follow that EE's and CS' grads *have* to go
> into IT jobs especially when not a lot of hiring is going on right now
> in this field.

Mostly the grads that are trying to get into a company like where Steve
works. Yes, you are a very right on not many grads not doing the work that
they went to school for. But at the same time was it by choice or because
there was no demand at graduation. I think any of the grads that went into
the IT end of it, it's because the demand is not there. I should have
mentioned in Canada, most students apply for a student loan. If they decided
to drop out of that course before the graduation date they had to start
repayment right away. So in all actual fact, yes they did drop the money,
they owe it.
Also these same grads that gradute with a diploma in IT, they take a
different career path, in a few years things pick up, they still won't get
hired because now technology has changed so much. This indirectly leads back
to your comment about experience/no experience, who will the company hire.
Obviously the grad that is most current on what is out.

> >My personal opinion is the industry should adopt an "apprenticeship"
> >program. Force these companies to hire and train, and only after so many
> >hours be allowed to write these exams from Cisco, Microsoft, and Novell.
Now
> >we all know this never going to happen because each and every comapny
wants

> >to be the first up and going, so they will continue to try and rape the
> >"resources" for the best and not replenish it. Something like what
happened
> >in the dirty 30's, ever read about the great dustbowl, farmers raped the
> >land and never replenished the nutrients and once very fertile land
turned
> >into a desert.
>
> I don't disagree with your general comments, but I think they are a
> little misplaced given the state of affairs. What you are suggesting
> is that if a hiring manager today has a choice to hire an experienced
> person at a fire-sale price or a person that has no experience, that
> he should hire the inexperienced person based only on philosophical
> reasons (to fertilize the future workforce). That is just not going
> to happen because it doesn't make sense. Now when the job market
> picks back up, these are good suggestions.
>
> If all your land right now is very fertile, you go ahead and plant.
> You then replace the nutrients afterwards, because you cannot
> "replace" them before they are used. The workforce today is like an
> extremely fertile field--tons of experts out there needing work. I
> prefer to use the NFL draft as an analogy. If you had the option to
> chose a Hiesman trophy winner or a player that is going to be a 5 year
> project, which do you choose? It is certainly possible that neither
> will pan out, but which is more likely to work out for you? The
> choice is obvious because you play the odds. With the workforce, the
> odds are that the experienced person will work out better than the guy
> who you have to train to do the job. And if you can get experience at
> fire-sale prices, why would anyone even think of hiring the
> inexperienced today? In the past at least the inexperienced had one
> thing in their favor, that they could be hired cheaply, and that gave
> many companies the incentive to hire the lesser experienced. But now
> experienced people can be hired just as cheaply.
>
> This is just the state of affairs today. I don't like it any more
> than anyone else. But I don't fault employers for hiring experience
> first when it just makes sense statistically to do so. I'm hoping
> this year picks up just as much as anybody. Until it picks back up
> any suggestions about apprenticeship programs or about it being better
> to hire people that can grow into the position over someone that
> already fits the position are going to fall on deaf ears.

There's no disagreement there. It is true, it's like buying a car, why pay
full price when you can a better model for half the cost down the road.

> >So I think in actual fact the only choice most companies are going to
have
> >to keep this replenished is start accepting the certified techs. Give
them
> >the experience. Lord knows they won't get hired with a couple years
> >experience or with no certs. And I think even an individual had 15 years
> >with no certs in a company with no "big" recognizable name, would suffer
> >also.
>
> When demand picks back up, yes. But I think talking about
> replenishing something that we have a glut of is a bit premature.
> That would be like China reversing their policy on population control
> saying, "We must make sure that our population is replenished!"
>
> --Bernie

A lot of my comments here were directed at what should have and has
happened. This was in response to Steves post about certifications and no
experience. Bottom line right now, is the individual with the certs got his
resume on Steves desk and thats what counted. As Steve mentioned just on
another post the individual should have voluneered to an organization with a
network.

Where I live right now, many organizations are bluntly saying they do not
wish for any unsolicited resumes. A shame because it defeats the whole
"hidden job market" theory. So now when many positions are posted, I don't
see them on Monster or any other "job board" but rather on their own
websites and local papers. Each and everyone states experience and certs.
These resumes go to a Human Resources Department, where they scan exactly
for these qualifications, and before it can even reach the hiring team it's
tossed. That way the hiring team can just review the short list.

Vaughan

V

Bernie

2002-12-31, 7:24 pm

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:35:26 -0800, "Vaughan"
<theduke32_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
>> I don't believe that the demand was real. IOW, companies were fed the
>> line that if they don't run the latest and greatest hardware and
>> software and constantly upgrade that they will be left behind by their
>> competitors.
>
>The demand wasn't as great as what everyone boasted, but none the less it
>has still helped cause what we have today.

Right. I wasn't disagreeing with how things got to where they are. I
was talking about back in the late 90's that when there was the "great
demand for talent" that it was more of a perceived demand than a real
need for more people. And as you noted this snowballed into a huge
bubble.
[colo
r=darkred]
>> >hype from newspapers, stock markets, governemnts pushing and recruiting
>> >highschools and pushing students in this field of work. Now there is a
> glut
>> >in the market with a surplus of manpower. What were these individulas to
> do,
>> >quit ? Thats a lot of money to drop, to not at least follow it through.
>>
>> I'm not sure which group you are talking about. Are you talking about
>> those that are in the industry or those that are in school heading
>> into the industry? If the latter, the suggestion that they must
>> follow through to not drop the money is not quite evident. I don't
>> know many people that have college degrees that are doing something
>> directly related, and yet many of those people have great careers in
>> whatever field they are in. Just like people with Humanities degrees
>> can get jobs in the IT sector, people with CS degrees can get jobs in
>> banking. It seems that more often than not people get jobs doing
>> other things, so I don't follow that EE's and CS' grads *have* to go
>> into IT jobs especially when not a lot of hiring is going on right now
>> in this field.
>
>Mostly the grads that are trying to get into a company like where Steve
>works. Yes, you are a very right on not many grads not doing the work that
>they went to school for. But at the same time was it by choice or because
>there was no demand at graduation.[/color]

I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that at that age of 22,
people still are not sure what they want to do with their life, and at
the age of 20 when they are picking their major (at the last moment
possible), they are just picking something because they have to and
they think they might like it. I know I was too young to know for
sure what I wanted to do. I know of a lot of people that started in a
particular major and later decided that they wanted to do something
else, sometimes after graduation. It is a big decision to force on
young people which is why so many end up changing their minds later
and go into other fields.

--Bernie

2003-01-02, 10:24 am

ylouis2@aol.com (Ylouis2) wrote in message news:<20021227091001.18611.00000272@mb-cq.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: Can't decide if CCNA -> CCNP -> CCIE is a good career path...
> >advice welcome
> >From: mrbedell@home.com (Dave)
> >Date: 12/26/2002 9:23 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: <55930fe9.0212261823.208f98c7@posting.google.com>
> >
> >>
> >> When I am inspecting resumes, I look for a very clear and direct
> progression[color
=darkred]
> >> in a person's career. If I see a large number of certs and a lack of
> >> actual experience, that is the first resume to hit the garbage bin for me.
>
> >> I don't want someone who can quote a line out of a book - I want someone
> >> who can do something useful. My experience is that people who focus
> >> heavily on certifications and not enough on actual work carry their
> >> incorrect priorities onto the job and I want nothing of it.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >
> >Steve,
> >
> >I find your response arrogant. How the heck is anyone supposed to get
> >experience without first getting a job? It's the perverbial chicken
> >before the egg syndrome. I find that most hiring managers have tunnel
> >vision. For example, you really don't want to get someone who is
> >qualified exactly to your requirements. Why? Becuase there is going to
> >be no chanllenge for that individual. Have you ever approached it
> >from this angle? I know that I generally shoot for positions that I am
> >almost qualified for and have faith that my potential employer will
> >have faith in me! Who wants someone who has already mastered the
> >skills required for the position? As far as certifications, do your
> >reserach. Yea, the CCNA is pretty easy. But the CCNP is NOT easy. It
> >takes a person with a great deal of motivation to self-teach
> >themselves the subject matter and then get certified in it. I believe
> >many hiring managers are too narrowly focused in their attempt to get
> >talent. Read between the lines when you look at resumes. The
> >candidate you pass up may be your best pick.
> >
> >M.B.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> M.B.
>
> You have a very good point. It was so devastating for myself when I was looking
> for a cisco job with my CCNP and without experience and I was treated like a
> piece of something. I would go to a job fair and recruiters would run after me
> and shake my hand and then when they saw I had no experience they would look
> for the next hand to shake. Unfortunately, recruiters compete with each other
> for an available position and they know when they send a resume of someone
> without experience they will not WIN.
>
> The truth is that when a company hire someone with a certification that person
> will progress very fast. You will be just a few inches closer to each
> technology rather than meters away when you do not have your certification.
> When I got my first job without experience because of my CCNP I was a little
> confused the first few days but then I was full speed working like an expert.
> Many that were already working there they got the Cisco position due to the
> fact that they wre already working for the company and they had no
> certifications or just the CCNA. They were so slow learning because they had no
> idea about OSPF, BGP, and very little knowledge of WAN and much more. They had
> 3-4 years experience doing the same thing over and over again and then they
> would come to me for in depth information on OSPF, Frame relay, ISDN, and more.
>
> Yes hiring someone with certifications and without experience is a big risk
> but it will pay BIG TIME later on. I do not blame recruiters though because
> they know that the companies will rarely take a chance an hire someone without
> experience. BUT there is always a first time. By keep trying you increase your
> chances to hiting the times that companies hire fresh people without experience
> and willing to train.
>
> Just keep trying and do not give up if you got no experience. Everyone starts
> without it anyways. :-)))
>
>
>
> Loizos Y.
> Sr. Network Engineer
> CCNA, CCNP, CCIE # 10702 R & S, OCP
>
> I passed my CCIE Lab exam using http://www.ipexpert.net workbook .
> I also used boards at http://www.certificationtalk.com ,
> http://www.groupstudy.com and http://www.routerie.com[/color]

a job fair is not a good place for someone to go looking when they
have no experience. The job search for the newbie must be by
networking and hitting the streets and a little luck. You are right.
Those guys at those job fairs, especially these days, are looking for
the right fit for what they have and they will not waste their time on
you, if you are not the right fit and that is the way it is for the
forseeable future.

mrzilla69

2003-01-06, 7:23 pm

So let me get this straight! I'm being told by commercials and IT news
mags that to get a job in the IT field that I must possess some sort of
certification to show that I have the ability and mental capacity to
comprehend the basics, just to get an entry level, (know nothing) postion
and work my way to the top. Only to be told by arrogant IT professionals and
ignorant recruiters that WITHOUT experience I can't get a job?!?!

Well then, can somebody whom doesn't have their head up thier XXX PLEASE
tell me, whats the secret password and or magical hand shake to get into
this field that I might add has been less than enticing for the last 2
years due to cut backs and an economy slump. 'Cause I can't quite figure it
out, NO EXPERIENCE - NO JOB, NO CERTIFICATION - NO JOB. But If I go to
college and take a HANDS ON course so I can get some sort of HANDS ON
EXPERIENCE so I can get that low paying entry level postion. Shouldn't I be
somewhat commended for showing enthusiasm and drive? How, how, how, does one
get a job in the IT field. Seems to me that soon there will be no more IT
professionals in the future 'cause there will be nobody with HANDS ON
experience 'cause recruiters won't hire anybody to get that HANDS ON
experience.

I know I seem pissed, I'm one of those people who were sold a pipe
dream. Yea, I took the college courses, I even showed up a month and a half
late and still ended up top of my class. I was sold the "get certified and
get a good job" (and no I didn't buy the "make 65k a year" bull either) lie.
Passed all but one of the requiered tests only to find out that MS was
retiering the tests with no chance to complete the course. So know I'm MCP+I
and still no IT job, no help desk not even coffee boy.

I know I went alittle.....OK..ALOT off the track, but when I read
ignorant statements like the one below it just reminds me why people like
Steve (douche bag) make people like me want to by high powered rifles.

Thanks for the piss and moan session.
Mike

"gw" <gw@webhideout.com> wrote in message
news:235a74db.0301020738.749f49d8@posting.google.com...
> ylouis2@aol.com (Ylouis2) wrote in message
news:<20021227091001.18611.00000272@mb-cq.aol.com>... [colo
r=darkred]
> > >Subject: Re: Can't decide if CCNA -> CCNP -> CCIE is a good career[/color]
path... [colo
r=darkred]
> > >advice welcome
> > >From: mrbedell@home.com (Dave)
> > >Date: 12/26/2002 9:23 PM Eastern Standard Time
> > >Message-id: <55930fe9.0212261823.208f98c7@posting.google.com>
> > >
> > >>
> > >> When I am inspecting resumes, I look for a very clear and direct
> > progression
> > >> in a person's career. If I see a large number of certs and a lack of
> > >> actual experience, that is the first resume to hit the garbage bin[/color]
for me.
> >
> > >> I don't want someone who can quote a line out of a book - I want
someone
> > >> who can do something useful. My experience is that people who focus
> > >> heavily on certifications and not enough on actual work carry their
> > >> incorrect priorities onto the job and I want nothing of it.
> > >>
> > >> Steve
> > >
> > >Steve,
> > >
> > >I find your response arrogant. How the heck is anyone supposed to get
> > >experience without first getting a job? It's the perverbial chicken
> > >before the egg syndrome. I find that most hiring managers have tunnel
> > >vision. For example, you really don't want to get someone who is
> > >qualified exactly to your requirements. Why? Becuase there is going to
> > >be no chanllenge for that individual. Have you ever approached it
> > >from this angle? I know that I generally shoot for positions that I am
> > >almost qualified for and have faith that my potential employer will
> > >have faith in me! Who wants someone who has already mastered the
> > >skills required for the position? As far as certifications, do your
> > >reserach. Yea, the CCNA is pretty easy. But the CCNP is NOT easy. It
> > >takes a person with a great deal of motivation to self-teach
> > >themselves the subject matter and then get certified in it. I believe
> > >many hiring managers are too narrowly focused in their attempt to get
> > >talent. Read between the lines when you look at resumes. The
> > >candidate you pass up may be your best pick.
> > >
> > >M.B.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > M.B.
> >
> > You have a very good point. It was so devastating for myself when I was
looking
> > for a cisco job with my CCNP and without experience and I was treated
like a
> > piece of something. I would go to a job fair and recruiters would run
after me
> > and shake my hand and then when they saw I had no experience they would
look
> > for the next hand to shake. Unfortunately, recruiters compete with each
other

> > for an available position and they know when they send a resume of
someone
> > without experience they will not WIN.
> >
> > The truth is that when a company hire someone with a certification that
person
> > will progress very fast. You will be just a few inches closer to each
> > technology rather than meters away when you do not have your
certification.
> > When I got my first job without experience because of my CCNP I was a
little
> > confused the first few days but then I was full speed working like an
expert.
> > Many that were already working there they got the Cisco position due to
the
> > fact that they wre already working for the company and they had no
> > certifications or just the CCNA. They were so slow learning because they
had no
> > idea about OSPF, BGP, and very little knowledge of WAN and much more.
They had
> > 3-4 years experience doing the same thing over and over again and then
they
> > would come to me for in depth information on OSPF, Frame relay, ISDN,
and more.
> >
> > Yes hiring someone with certifications and without experience is a big
risk
> > but it will pay BIG TIME later on. I do not blame recruiters though
because
> > they know that the companies will rarely take a chance an hire someone
without
> > experience. BUT there is always a first time. By keep trying you
increase your
> > chances to hiting the times that companies hire fresh people without
experience
> > and willing to train.
> >
> > Just keep trying and do not give up if you got no experience. Everyone
starts
> > without it anyways. :-)))
> >
> >
> >
> > Loizos Y.
> > Sr. Network Engineer
> > CCNA, CCNP, CCIE # 10702 R & S, OCP
> >
> > I passed my CCIE Lab exam using http://www.ipexpert.net workbook .
> > I also used boards at http://www.certificationtalk.com ,
> > http://www.groupstudy.com and http://www.routerie.com
>
>
> a job fair is not a good place for someone to go looking when they
> have no experience. The job search for the newbie must be by
> networking and hitting the streets and a little luck. You are right.
> Those guys at those job fairs, especially these days, are looking for
> the right fit for what they have and they will not waste their time on
> you, if you are not the right fit and that is the way it is for the
> forseeable future.

mrzilla69

2003-01-08, 4:24 pm

Tony Henry

2003-01-08, 5:24 pm

"mrzilla69" <mrzilla69@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<cYoS9.14638$566.2782@news.bellsouth.net>...
> So let me get this straight! I'm being told by commercials and IT news
> mags that to get a job in the IT field that I must possess some sort of
> certification to show that I have the ability and mental capacity to
> comprehend the basics, just to get an entry level, (know nothing) postion
> and work my way to the top. Only to be told by arrogant IT professionals and
> ignorant recruiters that WITHOUT experience I can't get a job?!?!
>
> Well then, can somebody whom doesn't have their head up thier XXX PLEASE
> tell me, whats the secret password and or magical hand shake to get into
> this field that I might add has been less than enticing for the last 2
> years due to cut backs and an economy slump. 'Cause I can't quite figure it
> out, NO EXPERIENCE - NO JOB, NO CERTIFICATION - NO JOB. But If I go to
> college and take a HANDS ON course so I can get some sort of HANDS ON
> EXPERIENCE so I can get that low paying entry level postion. Shouldn't I be
> somewhat commended for showing enthusiasm and drive? How, how, how, does one
> get a job in the IT field. Seems to me that soon there will be no more IT
> professionals in the future 'cause there will be nobody with HANDS ON
> experience 'cause recruiters won't hire anybody to get that HANDS ON
> experience.
>
> I know I seem pissed, I'm one of those people who were sold a pipe
> dream. Yea, I took the college courses, I even showed up a month and a half
> late and still ended up top of my class. I was sold the "get certified and
> get a good job" (and no I didn't buy the "make 65k a year" bull either) lie.
> Passed all but one of the requiered tests only to find out that MS was
> retiering the tests with no chance to complete the course. So know I'm MCP+I
> and still no IT job, no help desk not even coffee boy.
>
> I know I went alittle.....OK..ALOT off the track, but when I read
> ignorant statements like the one below it just reminds me why people like
> Steve (douche bag) make people like me want to by high powered rifles.
>
> Thanks for the piss and moan session.
> Mike
>
>
Mike

Who are you going to beleive? The IT training centres that are trying
to SELL YOU something. Or Steve, who is the hiring manager? Sure it
may seem arrogant, may even be arrogant, but he's telling you what
he's looking for when looking at candidates.. and he's not looking for
reams of certificates he's looking at experience.

To the chicken and the egg. it's hard to get a job with no experience,
but at this stage it's pretty hard to get a job with experience, A
certificate IMO is only good enough to get your resume onto the desk
of a hiring manager, Thats it, after that the hiring manager isn't
impressed with certs he's looking at experience and how that will
augment his team.

I think that if your a ccnp with no experience, then you shouldn't be
trying to get CCNP jobs there are more CCNP's out there with
experience then you'd like to think about, sure apply for them you may
get lucky. Your aim should be at getting experience and that means in
this environment, setting your aim lower, sucks but so does filling
out unemployment forms.

Just an opinion feel free to disagree

Tony Henry

Bernie

2003-01-08, 6:23 pm

On 8 Jan 2003 14:39:21 -0800, Tony_Henry@mbox.com.au (Tony Henry)
wrote:

>Who are you going to beleive? The IT training centres that are trying
>to SELL YOU something. Or Steve, who is the hiring manager? Sure it
>may seem arrogant, may even be arrogant, but he's telling you what
>he's looking for when looking at candidates.. and he's not looking for
>reams of certificates he's looking at experience.
>
>To the chicken and the egg. it's hard to get a job with no experience,
>but at this stage it's pretty hard to get a job with experience, A
>certificate IMO is only good enough to get your resume onto the desk
>of a hiring manager,

These days, not having a college degree might prevent your resume from
getting to the desk regardless of certs. Companies are a lot pickier
than they used to be and degrees have become a more common minimum
requirement than previously.

--Bernie

Bernie

2003-01-08, 6:23 pm

On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:25:02 GMT, Hansang Bae <uonr@alp.ee.pbz> wrote:

>Like any other job I suppose. Work from the bottom up. Live through
>the pain of temp HD job, move up to desktop support, to server support
>and finally to network support. That seems to be the natural order of
>food chain in this field.

Yep. This used to be the well known career path during the boom
times. Somehow this information has been lost over the past couple of
years and more and more people expect to just walk in off the street
straight into networking engineering positions with nothing more than
a couple of certs. Even during the boom times even if you had certs
you still had to go through those ranks for the most part (except for
those lucky few that were at the right place at the right time).

--Bernie

Steve

2003-01-08, 7:23 pm

how about working for yourself by offering networking services??
Dont tell me you cant do it i do www.sohonetworks.ca

John Lai

2003-01-18, 2:23 am

jacob_friedmann@yahoo.com (Jacob Friedmann) wrote in message news:<45ff0203.0212201635.674570c6@posting.google.com>...
> Hi folks!
> I am an embedded software engineer (mostly RTOS DDs), looking
> around for a better career path. What's your experience with Cisco
> certifications? Did they help you with your careers? Are they
> respected in the industry?
> I know _how_ to get them (how to study and where to take exams) - I
> am more interested in what you think about their usefulness vs cost
> and time and energy you need to get them. I am in US so I am mostly
> interested in USAns' experiences but other furriner types: please feel
> free to share too.

Jacob,
I read your post and felt that I had to throw my two cents here...
I always remember what an old friend of mine told me "young man if you
do good work, good job is gonna find you." There are TONS of naysayers
out there. If you REALLY want something go for it. The key with
certifications is focus on the process of getting your certifications,
don't just go for it for the sake of it but for the sake of getting a
training in the process. Be thorough with your study, study it over
and over and over again, until you BECOME A GURU. One major ingredient
of sucess, in addition to perseverence, time-management and planning
is associate yourself with the people who are already gurus in their
own right. Find somebody with common goals and form study groups. I
have seen many students at our school taking this approach and IT
NEVER FAISL. Go it alone, it would be ten times as difficult. Boy I
better stop as I think I am going off-topic. But the message I would
like to convey is there is demand for Cisco technicians. For people
with limited working experience who are having a hard time getting a
full time Cisco networking job, hook up with networking consultants as
there are a lot Cisco projects out there. One final word of advise:
focus on IP Telephony, it is gonna explode in the near future.

John
www.tcytech.com

Dave

2003-01-22, 1:23 am

> Yep. This used to be the well known career path during the boom
> times. Somehow this information has been lost over the past couple of
> years and more and more people expect to just walk in off the street
> straight into networking engineering positions with nothing more than
> a couple of certs. Even during the boom times even if you had certs
> you still had to go through those ranks for the most part (except for
> those lucky few that were at the right place at the right time).
>
>
> --Bernie

Bernie,

Sorry I have not responded earlier. Actually, I was trying to stick up
for the original poster because I know how hard it is. Fortunately, I
have a high security clearance and I stay close to the government
contracting arena. That's how I got my current job. Evrything you have
said is right so far. I would just add that there alot of really dumb
HR people out there (usually blond and ditzy)who will pass you along
if you have a particular cert they require. OBVIOUSLY you have to do
the work from there. Trust me, I am not living in a fantasy land, I
know there is more work involved. However, I really think it's
counterproductive and nasty to take away somebodys hope. Yes,
certification mills do it every day with those lies they talk about
over the radio. I actually called one of those schools and told them
off for lying to people just because their first student was a
success. Me? I trust in the Lord to help me. You just need to knock
REALLY loud.

Mark

Bernie

2003-01-22, 2:24 am

On 21 Jan 2003 22:38:41 -0800, mrbedell@home.com (Dave) wrote:

>> Yep. This used to be the well known career path during the boom
>> times. Somehow this information has been lost over the past couple of
>> years and more and more people expect to just walk in off the street
>> straight into networking engineering positions with nothing more than
>> a couple of certs. Even during the boom times even if you had certs
>> you still had to go through those ranks for the most part (except for
>> those lucky few that were at the right place at the right time).
>>
>>
>> --Bernie
>
>Bernie,
>
>Sorry I have not responded earlier. Actually, I was trying to stick up
>for the original poster because I know how hard it is. Fortunately, I
>have a high security clearance and I stay close to the government
>contracting arena. That's how I got my current job. Evrything you have
>said is right so far. I would just add that there alot of really dumb
>HR people out there (usually blond and ditzy)who will pass you along
>if you have a particular cert they require. OBVIOUSLY you have to do
>the work from there. Trust me, I am not living in a fantasy land, I
>know there is more work involved. However, I really think it's
>counterproductive and nasty to take away somebodys hope.

I am hoping that you aren't aiming that comment at me. It is one
thing to say that you just cannot do it and another thing to say that
you have to jump through this series of hoops to do it. When I say
that the career path has pretty much always been a couple of jobs in
IT and a couple of years experience to get into network engineering
jobs, then that is telling you how to do it. That is not telling you
it is not possible. If I were to tell you that the path to becoming a
doctor is to go to med school for several years followed by a couple
of years of internship, that isn't taking away someone's hope...that
is just telling them how it works. It is up to you to decide whether
or not it is worth it to pursue. Most people had to do helpdesk or
tech support starting into IT. From there they probably did some
systems administration, and from there got into networking. That
isn't really that bad. Some careers take far more to get into than
networking.

As for Steve, I didn't take his comments as particularly nasty. I
thought it was actually helpful that he was explaining what he looks
for. So if you know what qualities are important in the hiring
process, then you as a candidate can then troubleshoot how to get some
of those qualities. You really can't fault a manager for asking for
the things (such as experience) that he can easily find among job
applicants. I have always tried to approach it from the perspective
of molding my resume around the things that are looked for. I looked
for jobs where I could get other experience that what I was
specifically hired for. Smaller companies are great places for that.
If you treat your job search process as a part of a larger strategy,
then you will be able to figure out which jobs will take you closer to
where you want to be eventually as opposed to wasting your time.

>Yes,
>certification mills do it every day with those lies they talk about
>over the radio. I actually called one of those schools and told them
>off for lying to people just because their first student was a
>success. Me? I trust in the Lord to help me. You just need to knock
>REALLY loud.

Hey, maybe He has something far better in store for you than a career
in this field. Sometimes things work out that way for a reason.

--Bernie

ddeyoung

2003-01-22, 3:24 am

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:35:43 +0000, Jacob Friedmann wrote:

> Hi folks!
> I am an embedded software engineer (mostly RTOS DDs), looking
> around for a better career path. What's your experience with Cisco
> certifications? Did they help you with your careers? Are they respected
> in the industry?
> I know _how_ to get them (how to study and where to take exams) - I
> am more interested in what you think about their usefulness vs cost and
> time and energy you need to get them. I am in US so I am mostly
> interested in USAns' experiences but other furriner types: please feel
> free to share too.

Well there is one thing that most people fail to mention when answering
these threads. The most important thing is to do something that you love.

I got into "networking" kind of by accident. I was going to "tech" school
for electronics. A buddy of mine was going and I started reading his
homework. Building serial and parallel communications circuits and
working with transitors seemed really interesting to me. I was working in
managment at the time and while it was still pretty enjoyable, I was
looking for a major change.

I enrolled and had a lot of fun over that 2 years. Wound up with honors
and a 3.98, but it was pretty grueling because I spent about 6 hours at
school weekdays and worked 8 hours 6 to 7 days a week to pay the
disgusting fees that those schools charge.

Anyway to make a long story short(er), the Bachelor's instructor was
setting up a network and asked me to help. I had been screwing around
with linux for awhile (1.8 was fresh out of the mill) and I liked it, so I
helped him out.

The funny thing was that within a few months I was collecting 386/486
boxes and setting them up as routers. I was jamming as many surplus ISA
ethernet cards as I could afford in those boxes. Pretty funny to remember
now. I guess I don't know when it happened, I just got really into it.
I'd set up my workstation and an ftp server with about 5 routing boxes in
between and manually enter routes. Then I started messing with RIP and
RIPv2. After awhile it became clear that somebody might pay me to do this
so I got stoked! I started applying to jobs anywhere I could and when
they asked me about my experience most of them thought I was nuts. Then
one team of interviewers started asking me about broadcast domains and
routing on a rudimentary level. They picked up on what I was doing with
linux (they thought it was great) and started asking me questions taking
that into consideration. I found out that I had learned quite a lot about
the first 4 layers of OSI without really knowing how much I learned. They
hired me!

I was an entry level network tech at Hewlett Packard. It was like friggin
Disneyland! Layer 3 switching was just starting to really get deployed in
a big way. FastEthernet; short haul fiber; long haul fiber; STP. I was
high all the time just upgrading and troubleshooting networks. The moment
I knew for sure that I wanted to do this forever was