alt.certification.cisco - CISSP Certification

Author

CISSP Certification

DektrotRocnow

2002-06-24, 6:38 pm

Hello All,

Please, tell me what you think about CISSP certification. Thanks.

Dek

Patrick Bass

2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

"DektrotRocnow" <DEKTROTROCNOW@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c93f3b0.0206201439.1959f0eb@posting.google.com...
> Hello All,
>
> Please, tell me what you think about CISSP certification. Thanks.
>
> Dek

I'm a CISSP. Really has nothing to do with networking. Its a good cert if
you are into infosec. If you are into *networking security* you'd be better
off doing css1.

Micahel

2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

DEKTROTROCNOW@yahoo.com (DektrotRocnow) wrote in message news:<2c93f3b0.0206201439.1959f0eb@posting.google.com>...
> Hello All,
>
> Please, tell me what you think about CISSP certification. Thanks.
>
> Dek

I'm also interested in this cert. However, is there a requirement that
you must have working experience in related IT field for certain years
?
Regards

Micahel

John Kaberna

2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

Yes it was 3 years and they are changing it to 4 years on Jan 03. Your
experience must be in some area of security. Working as a plumber doesn't
count. I think this would be wise for all vendors to implement.

https://www.isc2.org/cgi-bin/content.cgi?page=157

Notice: Modifications to CISSP Requirements Beginning Jan. 1, 2003
The board of directors of the International Information Systems Security
Certification Consortium (ISC)2 has approved new requirements for the
Certified Information Systems Security Professional (CISSP) certification,
effective Jan. 1, 2003.

As of that date, the minimum experience requirement for certification will
be four years or three years with a college degree or equivalent life
experience. This action will not affect any current holders of the CISSP
credential or those planning to take the CISSP examination during 2002.

John Kaberna
CCIE #7146 (R/S, Security)
NETCG Inc.
www.netcginc.com
(415) 750-3800

Instructor for CCIE R/S and Security 5-day class www.ccbootcamp.com

"Micahel" <me@baldheadcat.com> wrote in message
news:461aa48a.0206202138.4fa37e24@posting.google.com...
> DEKTROTROCNOW@yahoo.com (DektrotRocnow) wrote in message
news:<2c93f3b0.0206201439.1959f0eb@posting.google.com>...
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Please, tell me what you think about CISSP certification. Thanks.
> >
> > Dek
>
> I'm also interested in this cert. However, is there a requirement that
> you must have working experience in related IT field for certain years
> ?
> Regards
>
> Micahel

-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
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Arcaidy

2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

John Kaberna wrote:

>" Yes it was 3 years and they are changing it to 4 years on Jan 03. Your
> experience must be in some area of security. Working as a plumber doesn't
> count. I think this would be wise for all vendors to implement."
>

I disagree with this. "I think this would be wise for all vendors to
implement"

I have worked with people that have 15 years experience that have no clue
what there doing. On the other had, I have worked with people that have
less than 1 year that have a very good understanding of what thier working
on. Experience only matters if someone grasps the concept from the
beginning.
just my .02 $

--
arcaidy @ mailcity com

Subordin8

2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

Arcaidy wrote:
> John Kaberna wrote:
>
>
>>" Yes it was 3 years and they are changing it to 4 years on Jan 03. Your
>>experience must be in some area of security. Working as a plumber doesn't
>>count. I think this would be wise for all vendors to implement."
>>
>
>
>
> I disagree with this. "I think this would be wise for all vendors to
> implement"
>
> I have worked with people that have 15 years experience that have no clue
> what there doing. On the other had, I have worked with people that have
> less than 1 year that have a very good understanding of what thier working
> on. Experience only matters if someone grasps the concept from the
> beginning.
> just my .02 $
>
>

I do agree with the required experience, and I also agree totally with
what you are saying. I would have to wait another 2 years until I have 4
years solid experience. However, I have proven better visual
perspectives on the network that a 36 year old colleague of mine in the
industry for 12 years, who struggles to keep up.

It's like anything, some people just have more of a nack for it than others.

Paul

John Kaberna

2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

What is one of the biggest reasons for a decline in any cert? People
attaining the cert that have no experience with the product or technology
being tested. The read a book or pay for some braindumps. Do you really
want to share the same certification with people that really can't do the
job that they are supposedly certified for? (Please don't start about how
certs don't mean you are qualified to do anything as this was meant to be a
general statement) If you are talking about someone with 12 years of
experience that can barely keep up then he probably can't pass the test
anyway or more likely won't even attempt it. Sure there will be some that
slip through the cracks. This requirement just keeps that number quite a
bit lower.

I think that the certification requiring the minimum years of experience is
great. It will never happen for the major vendors since those certs are
mass produced, but for smaller certs like the CISSP it will help keep its
value.

John Kaberna
CCIE #7146 (R/S, Security)
NETCG Inc.
www.netcginc.com
(415) 750-3800

Instructor for CCIE R/S and Security 5-day class www.ccbootcamp.com

"Subordin8" <pdawson@NOSPam.intekom.com> wrote in message
news:3D133F7C.7000709@NOSPam.intekom.com...
> Arcaidy wrote:
> > John Kaberna wrote:
> >
> >
> >>" Yes it was 3 years and they are changing it to 4 years on Jan 03.
Your[
color=darkred]
> >>experience must be in some area of security. Working as a plumber[/color]
doesn't
> >>count. I think this would be wise for all vendors to implement."
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > I disagree with this. "I think this would be wise for all vendors to
> > implement"
> >
> > I have worked with people that have 15 years experience that have no
clue
> > what there doing. On the other had, I have worked with people that have
> > less than 1 year that have a very good understanding of what thier
working
> > on. Experience only matters if someone grasps the concept from the
> > beginning.
> > just my .02 $
> >
> >
>
> I do agree with the required experience, and I also agree totally with
> what you are saying. I would have to wait another 2 years until I have 4
> years solid experience. However, I have proven better visual
> perspectives on the network that a 36 year old colleague of mine in the
> industry for 12 years, who struggles to keep up.
>
> It's like anything, some people just have more of a nack for it than
others.
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

I'd say it's geared more to senior level security personel or security
managers. (This is what many others say too. checkout some sites like
cissps.com, cccure.com, isc2.org) It doesn't target only one area like
Cisco's CSS1 does. For example, it requires knowledge in physical security.
If you're sincerely interested in security more than you just want to get a
job doing it, then go for it. Even if your only goal is to get a job, it
contains valuable information, but you may not meet some of the requirements
for the test if you haven't worked with one area of security for 3 years.
I personally consider this to be a valuable cert and the knowledge required
for it. I'm personally studying for it.
DYOH

"DektrotRocnow" <DEKTROTROCNOW@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c93f3b0.0206201439.1959f0eb@posting.google.com...
> Hello All,
>
> Please, tell me what you think about CISSP certification. Thanks.
>
> Dek

Maritain

2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

Guys,

I agree with Arcaidy. I've had many of those kinds of experiences. I've
worked with people who really have 10-15 years experience in networking, yet
I know more and have a better cognitive understanding and aptitude than they
do (and I have been in this industry for 6 years).

I think that the people with less experience are more apt to study harder
and work through the more technical knowledge aspects of our chosen science
and, therefore, arrive at a better grasp of the material at both an
intellectual and experiential level. This has been my personal experience.

I push myself really, really hard to attain "understanding and wisdom" in my
chosen field of engineering. I think it shows when I'm able to "out-know"
many of the "seniors" in the field I've worked with. I also find it nice to
see that they respect me more in turn and we're able to learn from each
other. I love this aspect of our industry: the comradery.

I'm working on an MCSE and CCNP/CCDP now, not to really "prove" anything to
the world, but because I've had years of experience with Cisco and Microsoft
platforms.
I think that this was the original intention of the certification movement:
VALIDATE a person's experience, knowledge and skill set; NOT create it per
se! This has obviously been reversed in recent years. Moreover, I love the
technologies and things they provide me and my family on a daily basis.

Interestingly enough, as much as everybody seems to be knocking the
certification in these groups, it's amazing to see how many employers
request and, at times, demand these certifications. I understand them. When
I go to the doctor or the dentist, he better have a degree on the wall
PROVING he knows his stuff or he's not coming near my body or teeth. I don't
care if he's been pulling teeth for 30 years...I want the formal study to
back that up and validate it. I think the same idea applies here.

Yours in respect,

Maritain

"Arcaidy" <Spam@Spam.Spam> wrote in message
news:kXFQ8.60839$hF5.2601263@news2.east.cox.net...
> John Kaberna wrote:
>
> >" Yes it was 3 years and they are changing it to 4 years on Jan 03. Your
> > experience must be in some area of security. Working as a plumber
doesn't
> > count. I think this would be wise for all vendors to implement."
> >
>
>
> I disagree with this. "I think this would be wise for all vendors to
> implement"
>
> I have worked with people that have 15 years experience that have no clue
> what there doing. On the other had, I have worked with people that have
> less than 1 year that have a very good understanding of what thier working
> on. Experience only matters if someone grasps the concept from the
> beginning.
> just my .02 $
>
>
> --
> arcaidy @ mailcity com

2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

Maritain

2002-06-24, 6:39 pm

2002-06-25, 11:25 pm

On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:45:47 -0700, "John Kaberna"
<jkaberna@nospam.netcginc.com> wrote:

>What is one of the biggest reasons for a decline in any cert? People
>attaining the cert that have no experience with the product or technology
>being tested. The read a book or pay for some braindumps. Do you really
>want to share the same certification with people that really can't do the
>job that they are supposedly certified for? (Please don't start about how
>certs don't mean you are qualified to do anything as this was meant to be a
>general statement) If you are talking about someone with 12 years of
>experience that can barely keep up then he probably can't pass the test
>anyway or more likely won't even attempt it. Sure there will be some that
>slip through the cracks. This requirement just keeps that number quite a
>bit lower.
>
>I think that the certification requiring the minimum years of experience is
>great. It will never happen for the major vendors since those certs are
>mass produced, but for smaller certs like the CISSP it will help keep its
>value.

yeah fine for certain certs - eg CCIE

but some other certs are entry level - CCNA is exactly that, and
roughly equivilent with the network+

expecting work experience for an entry level cert is just silly - but
requiring it for the professional (a year?) or engineer level is
definitly sensible

DB

nrf

2002-06-25, 11:25 pm

I don't really disagree with what you're saying, not at all. But I think I
should add the following inline.

"Maritain" <maritain@twmi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ldqR8.85344$Am4.23629723@twister.columbus.rr.com...
> Guys,
>
> I agree with Arcaidy. I've had many of those kinds of experiences. I've
> worked with people who really have 10-15 years experience in networking,
yet
> I know more and have a better cognitive understanding and aptitude than
they
> do (and I have been in this industry for 6 years).
>
> I think that the people with less experience are more apt to study harder
> and work through the more technical knowledge aspects of our chosen
science
> and, therefore, arrive at a better grasp of the material at both an
> intellectual and experiential level. This has been my personal experience.

Well, this has not really been the case for me. I agree some of the
young(er) guys are indeed more motivated and hungry than the older guys.
But in general, what I've found is that there are a lot more lazier and
unmotivated younger guys than older guys. I think it had to do with the
fact that most of the younger guys got in during the big boom, and
consequently got into the field for the money. Because of this, and the
fact that you really could make a lot of money without much work during the
late 90's, many of the younger guys never developed a proper work ethic, and
in fact picked up a lot of bad work habits (i.e. always showing up to work
late, etc.) Whereas the older guys are less susceptible to this. For the
older guys, this is not their first tech-recession, so the fact that they
survived meant that by and large they have been battle-tested by former bad
economic times.

Now like I said, this is a generalization. Clearly some younger guys are
indeed highly motivated and elite. And some of the older guys are in fact a
bunch of lazy-asses. But to me the proportions are clear. Things like
laziness and bad attitude seem to be disproprionately attributable to
younger, less-experienced people. And this is by no means restricted to IT,
but is true in all industries.

>
> I push myself really, really hard to attain "understanding and wisdom" in
my
> chosen field of engineering. I think it shows when I'm able to "out-know"
> many of the "seniors" in the field I've worked with. I also find it nice
to
> see that they respect me more in turn and we're able to learn from each
> other. I love this aspect of our industry: the comradery.

The industry welcomes hard workers. If you are one, then you will be
greeted with open arms. It seems like you are one, so you are welcome.

But again, what gives the young(er) guys such a bad rep is that so many of
them really were just in it for easy money, and had a knack for asking for
high salaries in return for, quite frankly, not working very hard.
Therefore the younger guys have to unfortunately fight that stigma. Is
that unfair? Yeah, I guess so. But that's the way the world is - you are
judged based on the group of which you are a member.

>
> I'm working on an MCSE and CCNP/CCDP now, not to really "prove" anything
to
> the world, but because I've had years of experience with Cisco and
Microsoft
> platforms.
> I think that this was the original intention of the certification
movement:
> VALIDATE a person's experience, knowledge and skill set; NOT create it per
> se! This has obviously been reversed in recent years. Moreover, I love
the
> technologies and things they provide me and my family on a daily basis.
>
> Interestingly enough, as much as everybody seems to be knocking the
> certification in these groups, it's amazing to see how many employers
> request and, at times, demand these certifications. I understand them.
When
> I go to the doctor or the dentist, he better have a degree on the wall
> PROVING he knows his stuff or he's not coming near my body or teeth. I
don't
> care if he's been pulling teeth for 30 years...I want the formal study to
> back that up and validate it. I think the same idea applies here.

Well, I know what you're saying, but I think you also understand what I'm
saying. Clearly you don't want, if you need some life-saving procedure, to
be the very first guy to get cut up by a surgeon, no matter how many degrees
he has on the wall and how good he is at cutting up cadavers. Surely you
would agree that you would be a lot more comfortable if he he actually had
performed the procedure before, and preferably many times before.

And that's really where the real objection comes. And you even said it
yourself - the purpose of certs is to validate knowlege/experience, not
create or substitute for it. However, the problem is that lately a lot of
people really do believe the latter, and think they can get a high-paying
job just by passing a few tests. Let's face it - a lot of people are lazy
and simply don't want to pay their dues and they see the cert as a method of
'cutting in line'. Some of us would blame the training companies for
making outlandish claims ("get such-and-such cert, and get a guaranteed job
for X dollars"), but hey, it's not really their fault - schools like that
will always exist as long as there are people out there who believe such
claims.

And besides, the comparison between IT certs and doctor's is a bit unfair,
for a simple reason. IT certs have been seriously poisoned by things like
braindumps. However, it is pretty difficult to braindump your way through
undergraduate college and MCAT's, and then braindump your way through 4
years of med school, and then braindump your way through the boards, and
then braindump your way through your residency. I suppose one could do it.
But clearly it's a whole lot harder to fake your way through all that than
to fake your way through some Prometric tests.

And I would dispute your contention that most jobs require certs. I think
you have fallen into a common trap. I agree that most publicly posted jobs
require certs. However, a dirty little secret of the industry is that most
jobs are not publicly posted - you get them through things like employee
referrals, and basically knowing the right people. CNN estimates that at
least 90% of all available tech jobs are obtained this way. This is why
study after study has shown that the best way to find a job is to use your
network (the people kind, not the router/switch kind). If you don't believe
that, then ask yourself why is it that every single book, magazine, website,
TV show, or whatever that talks about the best ways to find work without
fail mentions that networking is far and away the most effective method.
Not getting a bunch of certs, not writing a beautiful resume, not
cold-calling. It's always networking that's listed first. When you get a
job this way (which,again, is the vast majority of available work), certs
are largely irrelevant. Or, as Nick Crocodolis, of "Ask the Headhunter"
might say, while you're at Prometric trying to bang out a cert so that you
can pass HR's key-word searches, the hiring director is already shaking
hands with a guy who was recommended by Phil from downstairs.

None of this is to say that certs don't have their use. Clearly they do.
But they also have to be put into proper perspective. I see too many people
disproportionately over-emphasize certs and under-emphasize things like
meeting people. But let's face it - having 4 or 5 well-placed colleagues
that can throw you work is a whole lot more valuable than any cert could
ever be.
>
> Yours in respect,
>
> Maritain
>
> "Arcaidy" <Spam@Spam.Spam> wrote in message
> news:kXFQ8.60839$hF5.2601263@news2.east.cox.net...
> > John Kaberna wrote:
> >
> > >" Yes it was 3 years and they are changing it to 4 years on Jan 03.
Your[
color=darkred]
> > > experience must be in some area of security. Working as a plumber
> doesn't
> > > count. I think this would be wise for all vendors to implement."
> > >
> >
> >
> > I disagree with this. "I think this would be wise for all vendors to
> > implement"
> >
> > I have worked with people that have 15 years experience that have no[/color]
clue
> > what there doing. On the other had, I have worked with people that have
> > less than 1 year that have a very good understanding of what thier
working
> > on. Experience only matters if someone grasps the concept from the
> > beginning.
> > just my .02 $
> >
> >
> > --
> > arcaidy @ mailcity com
>
>

Bernie

2002-06-25, 11:25 pm

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:41:04 +1200, ? <naffoff@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:45:47 -0700, "John Kaberna"
><jkaberna@nospam.netcginc.com> wrote:
>
>>What is one of the biggest reasons for a decline in any cert? People
>>attaining the cert that have no experience with the product or technology
>>being tested. The read a book or pay for some braindumps. Do you really
>>want to share the same certification with people that really can't do the
>>job that they are supposedly certified for? (Please don't start about how
>>certs don't mean you are qualified to do anything as this was meant to be a
>>general statement) If you are talking about someone with 12 years of
>>experience that can barely keep up then he probably can't pass the test
>>anyway or more likely won't even attempt it. Sure there will be some that
>>slip through the cracks. This requirement just keeps that number quite a
>>bit lower.
>>
>>I think that the certification requiring the minimum years of experience is
>>great. It will never happen for the major vendors since those certs are
>>mass produced, but for smaller certs like the CISSP it will help keep its
>>value.

I still can't figure out why your posts never make it to my news
server, John. The only time I see your posts is when someone else
replies.

Anyway, there is a major vendor that has a cert that requires a
minimum number of years experience...Nortel's "Architect" cert. It is
the only one that I am aware of.

--Bernie

John Kaberna

2002-06-26, 8:25 am

Yep I agree. The required experience levels should mirror the type of cert.
If it's an entry level cert (CCNA) it should not require any experience.
CCNP should require at least 1 or 2 years. CCIE should require at least 3
or 4 years. The CISSP is switching to 4 years which is fine but I thought 3
years was fine too. At least they have some limited control over who gets
to take the exam.

John Kaberna
CCIE #7146 (R/S, Security)
NETCG Inc.
www.netcginc.com
(415) 750-3800

Instructor for CCIE R/S and Security 5-day class www.ccbootcamp.com

"?" <naffoff@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:gbhihucmg07cme9lonnq59jko
ojdbnou5s@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 10:45:47 -0700, "John Kaberna"
> <jkaberna@nospam.netcginc.com> wrote:
>
> >What is one of the biggest reasons for a decline in any cert? People
> >attaining the cert that have no experience with the product or technology
> >being tested. The read a book or pay for some braindumps. Do you really
> >want to share the same certification with people that really can't do the
> >job that they are supposedly certified for? (Please don't start about
how
> >certs don't mean you are qualified to do anything as this was meant to be
a
> >general statement) If you are talking about someone with 12 years of
> >experience that can barely keep up then he probably can't pass the test
> >anyway or more likely won't even attempt it. Sure there will be some
that
> >slip through the cracks. This requirement just keeps that number quite a
> >bit lower.
> >
> >I think that the certification requiring the minimum years of experience
is
> >great. It will never happen for the major vendors since those certs are
> >mass produced, but for smaller certs like the CISSP it will help keep its
> >value.
>
> yeah fine for certain certs - eg CCIE
>
> but some other certs are entry level - CCNA is exactly that, and
> roughly equivilent with the network+
>
> expecting work experience for an entry level cert is just silly - but
> requiring it for the professional (a year?) or engineer level is
> definitly sensible
>
> DB

-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

John Kaberna

2002-06-26, 10:25 am

I think you are seriously misguided on some of your points. I would take
the guy doing the work for 30 years over the guy that had a degree on the
wall. The degree does not PROVE that he can do anything. Sure I agree that
certs are no substitute for experience. But, passing a 50 question Sylvan
exam doesn't validate that you can go in to a customer site and configure
routers or troubleshoot a problem. You can't validate someone's ability to
troubleshoot based on a "choose the best answer" test. It only validates
that you know basic concepts and fundamentals in the area being tested.
That is assuming you didn't braindump or memorize important parts of the
books. It's pretty easy to regurgitate what you read in some Cisco Press
book. It's not easy to apply that memorized information to a real world
problem that deviates from the scenario given in the book.

I'm all for certifications even though I believe that people put way too
much value on them. The CCIE is great and all but does it validate that I
can walk in to a 6000 router network and troubleshoot a complex BGP peering
problem? Certainly not. Only experience can do that. However, the CCIE
does prove that the person is ambitious, dedicated, and possesses the more
advanced fundamental knowledge required to work in large and/or complex
environments. It shows me that the person is very likely to be able to
learn quickly and has the aptitude for this kind of work.

John Kaberna
CCIE #7146 (R/S, Security)
NETCG Inc.
www.netcginc.com
(415) 750-3800

Instructor for CCIE R/S and Security 5-day class www.ccbootcamp.com

"Maritain" <maritain@twmi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ldqR8.85344$Am4.23629723@twister.columbus.rr.com...
> Guys,
>
> I agree with Arcaidy. I've had many of those kinds of experiences. I've
> worked with people who really have 10-15 years experience in networking,
yet
> I know more and have a better cognitive understanding and aptitude than
they
> do (and I have been in this industry for 6 years).
>
> I think that the people with less experience are more apt to study harder
> and work through the more technical knowledge aspects of our chosen
science
> and, therefore, arrive at a better grasp of the material at both an
> intellectual and experiential level. This has been my personal experience.
>
> I push myself really, really hard to attain "understanding and wisdom" in
my
> chosen field of engineering. I think it shows when I'm able to "out-know"
> many of the "seniors" in the field I've worked with. I also find it nice
to
> see that they respect me more in turn and we're able to learn from each
> other. I love this aspect of our industry: the comradery.
>
> I'm working on an MCSE and CCNP/CCDP now, not to really "prove" anything
to
> the world, but because I've had years of experience with Cisco and
Microsoft
> platforms.
> I think that this was the original intention of the certification
movement:
> VALIDATE a person's experience, knowledge and skill set; NOT create it per
> se! This has obviously been reversed in recent years. Moreover, I love
the
> technologies and things they provide me and my family on a daily basis.
>
> Interestingly enough, as much as everybody seems to be knocking the
> certification in these groups, it's amazing to see how many employers
> request and, at times, demand these certifications. I understand them.
When
> I go to the doctor or the dentist, he better have a degree on the wall
> PROVING he knows his stuff or he's not coming near my body or teeth. I
don't
> care if he's been pulling teeth for 30 years...I want the formal study to
> back that up and validate it. I think the same idea applies here.
>
> Yours in respect,
>
> Maritain
>
> "Arcaidy" <Spam@Spam.Spam> wrote in message
> news:kXFQ8.60839$hF5.2601263@news2.east.cox.net...
> > John Kaberna wrote:
> >
> > >" Yes it was 3 years and they are changing it to 4 years on Jan 03.
Your[
color=darkred]
> > > experience must be in some area of security. Working as a plumber
> doesn't
> > > count. I think this would be wise for all vendors to implement."
> > >
> >
> >
> > I disagree with this. "I think this would be wise for all vendors to
> > implement"
> >
> > I have worked with people that have 15 years experience that have no[/color]
clue
> > what there doing. On the other had, I have worked with people that have
> > less than 1 year that have a very good understanding of what thier
working
> > on. Experience only matters if someone grasps the concept from the
> > beginning.
> > just my .02 $
> >
> >
> > --
> > arcaidy @ mailcity com
>
>

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