microsoft.public.cert.mcdba - MCDBA? Forget about it!

Author

MCDBA? Forget about it!

Danut

2003-03-05, 9:23 am

Do you want to become an MCDBA by studying hard and improving your skills?

Don't do it!

Why? Because if you know too much you will notice all the stupid mistakes
and decisions made by people who opened their last book in the days of SQL
Server 6.5. You will get pist off seeing that there are many multi-valued
columns in many tables, that we do not know what SP or patches are installed
on different SQL servers or even worse what version of our code is on each
server.

You will get angry when someone makes a decision about adding a new column
to a table without understanding all the side affects.

Indexes? Who cares about them? Error handling? Are you joking? Transactions?
We do not need that!

Danut, MCDBA, MCAD.NET

The Cert Sage

2003-03-05, 10:07 am

Who or what are you ticked off at?

Tech who don't keep up their tech skills? Microsoft? Sql?

chris

2003-03-05, 10:24 am

Why is an MCDBA advising against this? Nopt trying to start an arguement,
just curious.

"Danut" <danutzp1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:#8Df2cy4CHA.3248@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Do you want to become an MCDBA by studying hard and improving your skills?
>
> Don't do it!
>
> Why? Because if you know too much you will notice all the stupid mistakes
> and decisions made by people who opened their last book in the days of SQL
> Server 6.5. You will get pist off seeing that there are many multi-valued
> columns in many tables, that we do not know what SP or patches are
installed
> on different SQL servers or even worse what version of our code is on each
> server.
>
> You will get angry when someone makes a decision about adding a new column
> to a table without understanding all the side affects.
>
> Indexes? Who cares about them? Error handling? Are you joking?
Transactions?
> We do not need that!
>
> Danut, MCDBA, MCAD.NET
>
>

Leigh Kendall

2003-03-05, 11:24 am

I think Danut is being sarcastic... I believe he's trying to express what
it's like to be on the other side of "ignorance is bliss".

I'd have to agree. It's amazing how much your "average" worker is content on
NOT knowing. Seems as though the general attitude about learning and
updating skills is that if my employer doesn't send me to training; then I
don't need to know it. Or, if I don't know something I can always use the
excuse; "well I never got trained on it...". God forbid they might show some
initiative and crack a book open on their own.

Then again, most "technical" managers don't help either. They usually seem
to know less than your lowest technical person and all they care about is
being able to meet an unrealistic deadline. Who cares if it's slapped
together, we'll fix it later. Yeah, we made the deadline.

OK, I'm done...

--
Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA

"The Cert Sage" <The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net> wrote in message
news:The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net...
>
> Who or what are you ticked off at?
>
> Tech who don't keep up their tech skills? Microsoft? Sql?
>
> ---
> View this thread: http://www.examnotes.net/article1002877.html
> The Cert Sage
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Cert Sage's Profile:
http://www.examnotes.net/forums/mem...o&userid=168689
>

Jacco Schalkwijk

2003-03-05, 12:23 pm

Totally agree.

IT workers don't read books and don't keep up to date, at least not as much
as they should do by far. I was attacked on another newsgroup for having too
much book knowledge basically because I have a few certs. That would make my
replies crap apperantly (you get it, I get it).

And the problem is that even in the current job market people get away with
it, because as you said the "technical" managers don't have the knowledge to
hire people with the right skills, and hire people with the shiniest cv's
instead.

Gotta go, got some more books to read ;-)

--
Jacco Schalkwijk MCDBA, MCSD, MCSE
Database Administrator
Eurostop Ltd.

"Leigh Kendall" <lkendall@msdnnewsgroups.com> wrote in message
news:e3#C$sz4CHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> I think Danut is being sarcastic... I believe he's trying to express what
> it's like to be on the other side of "ignorance is bliss".
>
> I'd have to agree. It's amazing how much your "average" worker is content
on
> NOT knowing. Seems as though the general attitude about learning and
> updating skills is that if my employer doesn't send me to training; then I
> don't need to know it. Or, if I don't know something I can always use the
> excuse; "well I never got trained on it...". God forbid they might show
some
> initiative and crack a book open on their own.
>
> Then again, most "technical" managers don't help either. They usually seem
> to know less than your lowest technical person and all they care about is
> being able to meet an unrealistic deadline. Who cares if it's slapped
> together, we'll fix it later. Yeah, we made the deadline.
>
> OK, I'm done...
>
> --
> Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA
>
>
> "The Cert Sage" <The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net> wrote in message
> news:The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net...
> >
> > Who or what are you ticked off at?
> >
> > Tech who don't keep up their tech skills? Microsoft? Sql?
> >
> > ---
> > View this thread: http://www.examnotes.net/article1002877.html
> > The Cert Sage
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The Cert Sage's Profile:
> http://www.examnotes.net/forums/mem...o&userid=168689
> >
>
>

Leigh Kendall

2003-03-05, 12:23 pm

I meant to add to my other post:

Welcome to the real world... <g>

--
Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA

"Danut" <danutzp1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:#8Df2cy4CHA.3248@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Do you want to become an MCDBA by studying hard and improving your skills?
>
> Don't do it!
>
> Why? Because if you know too much you will notice all the stupid mistakes
> and decisions made by people who opened their last book in the days of SQL
> Server 6.5. You will get pist off seeing that there are many multi-valued
> columns in many tables, that we do not know what SP or patches are
installed
> on different SQL servers or even worse what version of our code is on each
> server.
>
> You will get angry when someone makes a decision about adding a new column
> to a table without understanding all the side affects.
>
> Indexes? Who cares about them? Error handling? Are you joking?
Transactions?
> We do not need that!
>
> Danut, MCDBA, MCAD.NET
>
>

Leigh Kendall

2003-03-05, 12:23 pm

Yup...

So who does the "manager" think did a better job?

1. The person who got the job done on time and sloppy; we'll fix the issues
later...
or
2. The person who got the job done correctly and then some, plus did it
using naming conventions and other standards along with a solid design, BUT,
was a week or so late.

<vbg>...

--
Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA

"Jacco Schalkwijk" <NOSPAMjaccos@eurostop.co.uk> wrote in message
news:#aaQN3z4CHA.1740@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Totally agree.
>
> IT workers don't read books and don't keep up to date, at least not as
much
> as they should do by far. I was attacked on another newsgroup for having
too
> much book knowledge basically because I have a few certs. That would make
my
> replies crap apperantly (you get it, I get it).
>
> And the problem is that even in the current job market people get away
with
> it, because as you said the "technical" managers don't have the knowledge
to
> hire people with the right skills, and hire people with the shiniest cv's
> instead.
>
> Gotta go, got some more books to read ;-)
>
>
> --
> Jacco Schalkwijk MCDBA, MCSD, MCSE
> Database Administrator
> Eurostop Ltd.
>
>
> "Leigh Kendall" <lkendall@msdnnewsgroups.com> wrote in message
> news:e3#C$sz4CHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > I think Danut is being sarcastic... I believe he's trying to express
what
> > it's like to be on the other side of "ignorance is bliss".
> >
> > I'd have to agree. It's amazing how much your "average" worker is
content
> on
> > NOT knowing. Seems as though the general attitude about learning and
> > updating skills is that if my employer doesn't send me to training; then
I
> > don't need to know it. Or, if I don't know something I can always use
the
> > excuse; "well I never got trained on it...". God forbid they might show
> some
> > initiative and crack a book open on their own.
> >
> > Then again, most "technical" managers don't help either. They usually
seem
> > to know less than your lowest technical person and all they care about
is
> > being able to meet an unrealistic deadline. Who cares if it's slapped
> > together, we'll fix it later. Yeah, we made the deadline.
> >
> > OK, I'm done...
> >
> > --
> > Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA
> >
> >
> > "The Cert Sage" <The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net> wrote in
message
> > news:The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net...
> > >
> > > Who or what are you ticked off at?
> > >
> > > Tech who don't keep up their tech skills? Microsoft? Sql?
> > >
> > > ---
> > > View this thread: http://www.examnotes.net/article1002877.html
> > > The Cert Sage
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The Cert Sage's Profile:
> > http://www.examnotes.net/forums/mem...o&userid=168689
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Jacco Schalkwijk

2003-03-05, 2:23 pm

well, that depends who's going to pay for it to fix it. Ultimately it's the
company anyway, but if you have to make a deadline for a client
implementation it costs to be late immediately. Finding the cost of the
crappy product happens later, when the manager is promoted/moved onto new
challenges/decided to spend more time with his family :-)

Why worry about things that only come to light when you've gone? ;-)

"Leigh Kendall" <lkendall@msdnnewsgroups.com> wrote in message
news:eXS5VG04CHA.2424@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Yup...
>
> So who does the "manager" think did a better job?
>
> 1. The person who got the job done on time and sloppy; we'll fix the
issues
> later...
> or
> 2. The person who got the job done correctly and then some, plus did it
> using naming conventions and other standards along with a solid design,
BUT,
> was a week or so late.
>
> <vbg>...
>
> --
> Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA
>
>
> "Jacco Schalkwijk" <NOSPAMjaccos@eurostop.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:#aaQN3z4CHA.1740@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > Totally agree.
> >
> > IT workers don't read books and don't keep up to date, at least not as
> much
> > as they should do by far. I was attacked on another newsgroup for having
> too
> > much book knowledge basically because I have a few certs. That would
make
> my
> > replies crap apperantly (you get it, I get it).
> >
> > And the problem is that even in the current job market people get away
> with
> > it, because as you said the "technical" managers don't have the
knowledge
> to
> > hire people with the right skills, and hire people with the shiniest
cv's
> > instead.
> >
> > Gotta go, got some more books to read ;-)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jacco Schalkwijk MCDBA, MCSD, MCSE
> > Database Administrator
> > Eurostop Ltd.
> >
> >
> > "Leigh Kendall" <lkendall@msdnnewsgroups.com> wrote in message
> > news:e3#C$sz4CHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > I think Danut is being sarcastic... I believe he's trying to express
> what
> > > it's like to be on the other side of "ignorance is bliss".
> > >
> > > I'd have to agree. It's amazing how much your "average" worker is
> content
> > on
> > > NOT knowing. Seems as though the general attitude about learning and
> > > updating skills is that if my employer doesn't send me to training;
then
> I
> > > don't need to know it. Or, if I don't know something I can always use
> the
> > > excuse; "well I never got trained on it...". God forbid they might
show
> > some
> > > initiative and crack a book open on their own.
> > >
> > > Then again, most "technical" managers don't help either. They usually
> seem
> > > to know less than your lowest technical person and all they care about
> is

> > > being able to meet an unrealistic deadline. Who cares if it's slapped
> > > together, we'll fix it later. Yeah, we made the deadline.
> > >
> > > OK, I'm done...
> > >
> > > --
> > > Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA
> > >
> > >
> > > "The Cert Sage" <The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net> wrote in
> message
> > > news:The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net...
> > > >
> > > > Who or what are you ticked off at?
> > > >
> > > > Tech who don't keep up their tech skills? Microsoft? Sql?
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > View this thread: http://www.examnotes.net/article1002877.html
> > > > The Cert Sage
> > > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The Cert Sage's Profile:
> > >
[url]http://www.examnotes.net/forums/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=168689[/ url][
color=darkred]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>[/color]

Christopher Hance

2003-03-05, 2:23 pm

Of course, no client spec is ever right on the first 17.38 iterations
anyway, so according to them, you haven't finished the "desired product"
either way. And someone in management will inevitably try to curry favor
with said client by promising the new features for free, each of which
operates counter to at least a third of the original rules. So does it
really pay to do it right the first time?

Bitter? Who, me?

On the database side, I'll admit it is worthwhile to make a
maximally-normalized design on the first run, as that means it will be
possible, albeit quite ugly, to convert the data to the final structure.
Otherwise you tend to get "updated information" that is a) null, b) in a new
format entirely, and/or c) absolutely unrelated to the project.

-Chris Hance
(until recently) DBA, ASP Developer

"Jacco Schalkwijk" <NOSPAMjaccos@eurostop.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OKBZbA14CHA.3248@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> well, that depends who's going to pay for it to fix it. Ultimately it's
the
> company anyway, but if you have to make a deadline for a client
> implementation it costs to be late immediately. Finding the cost of the
> crappy product happens later, when the manager is promoted/moved onto new
> challenges/decided to spend more time with his family :-)
>
> Why worry about things that only come to light when you've gone? ;-)

rcaine

2003-03-05, 5:52 pm

I'm working on the MCDBA after years of Network work. In talking the classes and studying books and forums to prepare I realize many poor design features of production databases I supported as a Network Engineer on past jobs. I am learning to do better. I know it will be frustrating to work fixing these poor designs (or having to live with them).

Danut

2003-03-05, 8:23 pm

Yes, I was sarcastic. I'm keep asking myself if it wasn't been better if I
hadn't studied that much so I could have not understand so many stupid
things some people do.

The deadlines are unrealistic because, of course, "we do not have time" to
think it through. Few hours spent in meetings is considered a lost of time.
Patching the code again and again and actually losing more time because of
bad decisions is ok.

On top of that one someone tries to improve the system, it gets busted
because "one shall not make waves". Meantime other people really waste time
doing nothing.

"Leigh Kendall" <lkendall@msdnnewsgroups.com> wrote in message
news:e3#C$sz4CHA.2416@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> I think Danut is being sarcastic... I believe he's trying to express what
> it's like to be on the other side of "ignorance is bliss".
>
> I'd have to agree. It's amazing how much your "average" worker is content
on
> NOT knowing. Seems as though the general attitude about learning and
> updating skills is that if my employer doesn't send me to training; then I
> don't need to know it. Or, if I don't know something I can always use the
> excuse; "well I never got trained on it...". God forbid they might show
some
> initiative and crack a book open on their own.
>
> Then again, most "technical" managers don't help either. They usually seem
> to know less than your lowest technical person and all they care about is
> being able to meet an unrealistic deadline. Who cares if it's slapped
> together, we'll fix it later. Yeah, we made the deadline.
>
> OK, I'm done...
>
> --
> Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA
>
>
> "The Cert Sage" <The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net> wrote in message
> news:The.Cert.Sage.jtt8b@mail.examnotes.net...
> >
> > Who or what are you ticked off at?
> >
> > Tech who don't keep up their tech skills? Microsoft? Sql?
> >
> > ---
> > View this thread: http://www.examnotes.net/article1002877.html
> > The Cert Sage
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > The Cert Sage's Profile:
> http://www.examnotes.net/forums/mem...o&userid=168689
> >
>
>

Danut

2003-03-05, 8:23 pm

Well, I'm not a newbie but I guess that either I have not met such a thing
before or I was not able to see these things due to my lack of expertise or
maybe both (?)

"Leigh Kendall" <lkendall@msdnnewsgroups.com> wrote in message
news:OQlgnE04CHA.2812@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> I meant to add to my other post:
>
> Welcome to the real world... <g>
>
>
> --
> Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA
>
>
> "Danut" <danutzp1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:#8Df2cy4CHA.3248@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > Do you want to become an MCDBA by studying hard and improving your
skills?
> >
> > Don't do it!
> >
> > Why? Because if you know too much you will notice all the stupid
mistakes
> > and decisions made by people who opened their last book in the days of
SQL
> > Server 6.5. You will get pist off seeing that there are many
multi- valued
> > columns in many tables, that we do not know what SP or patches are
> installed
> > on different SQL servers or even worse what version of our code is on
each
> > server.
> >
> > You will get angry when someone makes a decision about adding a new
column
> > to a table without understanding all the side affects.
> >
> > Indexes? Who cares about them? Error handling? Are you joking?
> Transactions?
> > We do not need that!
> >
> > Danut, MCDBA, MCAD.NET
> >
> >
>
>

Denny

2003-03-05, 9:23 pm

Give yourself time. If your just getting started in the database world, and
you haven't yet seen the stupid side of the corporate world count your self
lucky. Don't become one of those people, just because it's easier that way.
If you do, we'll find you, I promise. I'm kidding of course. Beatings are
reserved for those that's don't try, because they don't care; not for those
that try, and don't realize.

</RANT> I hope.

Seriously, you will someday, sooner than you want to, come across some
project that has to be done my way, and it has to be done in 30 days, or
your life is going to suck bad. What they forget to mention is that your
life will suck because of this little 30 day project for the next 2 years.
Ok maybe the rant wasn't quite over.

Again, getting back on track, hopefully. Managers need to release that the
little project that only takes a few weeks or months to complete, and who
cares if the code is kind of sloppy, will spiral into a nightmare, fast.
After the system is built, and running, someone has to maintain that beast,
as well as work on the next project that's just going to take a month or
two. And who cares if the codes a little sloppy, it's ok. Right? Don't
answer that, it doesn't matter what you say. Your answer will always be
wrong in there eyes. There management, and your not, so your wrong.
Remember that, it's important.

One thing to keep in mind, I'm a youngin', so I tend to speak my mind.
Haven't been smacked around enough by the corporate types enough to teach me
to keep my mouth shut in meetings, so I tend to get into a little trouble,
but hey that just makes things a little more interesting. Been doing this
for a while now though, and I've got to say, When a "kid" of 19 can tell
that managers are making bad business decisions, that should tell them
something. But no, I was just the kid, who didn't know what he was talking
about.

We'll it's time to go crack open this months Mags, and see what new and
exciting things are out there.

Read more, and ask more questions. And remember, there's no such thing as a
project that can't be done. You might just need to squash a few managers to
get it done correctly.

BTW, I'm not 19 any more, that was a while ago, but they still don't listen.
No matter how old you are.

Thanks for giving me an ear to chew on, it was rather tasty.

--
Denny Cherry
Database Administrator
GameSpy Industries

"Danut" <danutzp1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uytckZ44CHA.2672@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Well, I'm not a newbie but I guess that either I have not met such a thing
> before or I was not able to see these things due to my lack of expertise
or
> maybe both (?)
>
> "Leigh Kendall" <lkendall@msdnnewsgroups.com> wrote in message
> news:OQlgnE04CHA.2812@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > I meant to add to my other post:
> >
> > Welcome to the real world... <g>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Leigh Kendall, MCSD, MCDBA
> >
> >
> > "Danut" <danutzp1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:#8Df2cy4CHA.3248@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > > Do you want to become an MCDBA by studying hard and improving your
> skills?
> > >
> > > Don't do it!
> > >
> > > Why? Because if you know too much you will notice all the stupid
> mistakes
> > > and decisions made by people who opened their last book in the days of
> SQL
> > > Server 6.5. You will get pist off seeing that there are many
> multi- valued
> > > columns in many tables, that we do not know what SP or patches are
> > installed
> > > on different SQL servers or even worse what version of our code is on
> each
> > > server.
> > >
> > > You will get angry when someone makes a decision about adding a new
> column
> > > to a table without understanding all the side affects.
> > >
> > > Indexes? Who cares about them? Error handling? Are you joking?
> > Transactions?
> > > We do not need that!
> > >
> > > Danut, MCDBA, MCAD.NET
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Alan Davis

2003-03-06, 2:23 am

>The deadlines are unrealistic because, of course, "we do not have time" to
>think it through. Few hours spent in meetings is considered a lost of time.
>Patching the code again and again and actually losing more time because of
>bad decisions is ok.

How many times do I here this!

Companies never have enough time to do it right, but always have time
to do it all over again.

A great quote from a Rational paper I once read, which goes something
like this - "We don't have time to perform requirement analysis, if we
don't start coding now we will never finish the product!"

Alan Davis

2003-03-06, 2:23 am

>I know it will be
>frustrating to work fixing these poor designs (or having to live with
>them).

You *can* fix poor designs, however it is much harder to fix ingrained
incompetence which seems inherent in todays IT infrastructure.

Alan Davis

2003-03-06, 2:23 am

>Of course, no client spec is ever right on the first 17.38 iterations
>anyway, so according to them, you haven't finished the "desired product"
>either way. And someone in management will inevitably try to curry favor
>with said client by promising the new features for free, each of which
>operates counter to at least a third of the original rules. So does it
>really pay to do it right the first time?

This is why it is important to have an appropriate process model in
place before a project is started, as procedures are vital to avoid
these types of problems. Before any design work is carried out, it is
so vital that the requirements reflect what is really required; if
requirement changes are allowed to manifest themselves during the
later stages of a project, the project will run into problems. Too
often the project scope document forms the actual requirements, rather
than a basis for such requirements.

It is quit often the client/customer who is at fault, because they do
not take on board the impotence of their role in the development
process. Nine times out of ten, these problems could avoided by
developing a process model which suits the business; I've seen same
good successes with models based on the win-win spiral model, but both
parties need commitment and a will for it to succeed for it to work.

2003-03-09, 1:23 am

Chris,

Read his response... he's being sarcastic about the quality of work being
produced by those who claim to be certified.

--
vt

"chris" <chris@fin2000.com> wrote in message
news:OkToxuy4CHA.972@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Why is an MCDBA advising against this? Nopt trying to start an arguement,
> just curious.
>
> "Danut" <danutzp1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:#8Df2cy4CHA.3248@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > Do you want to become an MCDBA by studying hard and improving your
skills?
> >
> > Don't do it!
> >
> > Why? Because if you know too much you will notice all the stupid
mistakes
> > and decisions made by people who opened their last book in the days of
SQL
> > Server 6.5. You will get pist off seeing that there are many
multi- valued
> > columns in many tables, that we do not know what SP or patches are
> installed
> > on different SQL servers or even worse what version of our code is on
each
> > server.
> >
> > You will get angry when someone makes a decision about adding a new
column
> > to a table without understanding all the side affects.
> >
> > Indexes? Who cares about them? Error handling? Are you joking?
> Transactions?
> > We do not need that!
> >
> > Danut, MCDBA, MCAD.NET
> >
> >
>
>

Danut

2003-03-09, 6:23 pm

Nope. I've being sarcastic about the quality of the work produced by people
who do not have any kind of qualification: no computer related degree, no
certification and no experience. They keep their jobs by playing political
games and not by doing a good job.

I was also sarcastic that I have a degree and I just achieved the MCDBA
after hard studying and unfortunately I cannot make any difference because
the managers do not seem to care.

Danut

"vt" <email@email.net> wrote in message
news:eJ#y0fg5CHA.1920@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Chris,
>
> Read his response... he's being sarcastic about the quality of work being
> produced by those who claim to be certified.
>
> --
> vt
>
>
> "chris" <chris@fin2000.com> wrote in message
> news:OkToxuy4CHA.972@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > Why is an MCDBA advising against this? Nopt trying to start an
arguement,
> > just curious.
> >
> > "Danut" <danutzp1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:#8Df2cy4CHA.3248@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > > Do you want to become an MCDBA by studying hard and improving your
> skills?
> > >
> > > Don't do it!
> > >
> > > Why? Because if you know too much you will notice all the stupid
> mistakes
> > > and decisions made by people who opened their last book in the days of
> SQL
> > > Server 6.5. You will get pist off seeing that there are many
> multi- valued
> > > columns in many tables, that we do not know what SP or patches are
> > installed
> > > on different SQL servers or even worse what version of our code is on
> each
> > > server.
> > >
> > > You will get angry when someone makes a decision about adding a new
> column
> > > to a table without understanding all the side affects.
> > >
> > > Indexes? Who cares about them? Error handling? Are you joking?
> > Transactions?
> > > We do not need that!
> > >
> > > Danut, MCDBA, MCAD.NET
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

somebody

2003-03-10, 2:23 am

I'd say give your advice and view on things, and if they still don't get it, heck, just do it
'their' way. Get their sign offs, etc. and if things go wrong, maybe they will remember the time you
told them it will go wrong. Managers gets the blame in the end(unless of course he redirects the
blame to you, then you might consider not even working for such a smut). Then they'd get you back to
fix it, yadda yadda. Who cares if its gonna cost the company three times more in the future to
maintain the poorly designed system right? You're more likely to be on a better company who gives a
damn about the future, by then.

Sometimes being a mercenary is bliss. What company ABC loyalty? blah...

Alan Davis

2003-03-10, 3:24 am

>I've being sarcastic about the quality of the work produced by people
>who do not have any kind of qualification: no computer related degree, no
>certification and no experience.

You do not need a 'computer related degree' to succeed in IT.

>They keep their jobs by playing political
>games and not by doing a good job.

The problems in IT are down to a complete lack of understanding of how
to go about the process of producing software. All these problems can
be traced back to 'people problems'; someone chooses the wrong tools
for the job, another chooses the wrong person for the role. Lack of
experience is an issue, but it's people who hire experienced (cheap)
people or decide not implement training procedures.

>I was also sarcastic that I have a degree and I just achieved the MCDBA
>after hard studying and unfortunately I cannot make any difference because
>the managers do not seem to care.

At the end of the day, IT decisions are made based on short term
objectives, almost always based on immediate costs & time - We can't
put together a software development process now, we need the project
done quickly.

Jacco Schalkwijk

2003-03-10, 4:23 am

> You do not need a 'computer related degree' to succeed in IT.

True (I don't have one myself) but it will help. I think Anut is more after
the people who don't have anything at all. You don't become a good computer
professional just by working with the systems. You need to read quite a
number of books to actually understand the ideas behind them, otherwise you
will make the same mistakes people made 20-30 years ago. But I think we all
agree on that.

--
Jacco Schalkwijk MCDBA, MCSD, MCSE
Database Administrator
Eurostop Ltd.

"Alan Davis" <T> wrote in message
news:ldho6vk9b6v0jmntjn4egflp9
j5cpcf5ju@4ax.com...
> >I've being sarcastic about the quality of the work produced by people
> >who do not have any kind of qualification: no computer related degree, no
> >certification and no experience.
>
> You do not need a 'computer related degree' to succeed in IT.
>
> >They keep their jobs by playing political
> >games and not by doing a good job.
>
> The problems in IT are down to a complete lack of understanding of how
> to go about the process of producing software. All these problems can
> be traced back to 'people problems'; someone chooses the wrong tools
> for the job, another chooses the wrong person for the role. Lack of
> experience is an issue, but it's people who hire experienced (cheap)
> people or decide not implement training procedures.
>
> >I was also sarcastic that I have a degree and I just achieved the MCDBA
> >after hard studying and unfortunately I cannot make any difference
because
> >the managers do not seem to care.
>
> At the end of the day, IT decisions are made based on short term
> objectives, almost always based on immediate costs & time - We can't
> put together a software development process now, we need the project
> done quickly.

Alan Davis

2003-03-10, 5:23 am

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>You need to read quite a
>number of books to actually understand the ideas behind them, otherwise you
>will make the same mistakes people made 20-30 years ago.

Reading books is fine, putting it is to practice in a real world
environment is another matter.

Typical example (based on a real situation)

Company 'A' decides to outsource it's whole IT operation, primary
reason simply to save money. Three companies end up in 'bidding war'
for the tender, as such each company bidding for the work cuts
[costing] corners in order to win the bid, these may include spending
less time analysing the issues regarding the work involved in the
tender.

Company 'A' decide to go with the lowest bidder. However, because of
the corner cutting applied during the tender, hidden issues now arise,
such as: -

Company 'A' now as no domain experts on hand (they all left in
disgust) to act as 'consultants' for Company 'A' (which would have
been another hidden cost had they stayed).

During the hand over period the remaining IT staff of Company 'A' were
less than helpful, while they served out their notice.

The full extent of the state of the software & [lack of] business
processes now becomes apparent.

After a while it becomes clear that the outsourceing company cannot
provide the level of service agreed, and seek to 're-negotiate' the
contract. Company 'A' refuse and end up in a legal battle which the
only winners are the law firms.

The outcome was that Company 'A' agreed to the outsouring companies
terms, which ended up costing them more than had they kept the IT
operations internal.

What is more ironic here was that Company 'A' tried a smaller
outsourcing venture back in the late 80's. The result was increased
expense as more analysts were required to produce *very* detailed
coding specs, so that the outsourcing company to produce the required
work. Result - increased costs & project delayed.

The issue here is not only "should Company 'A' have outsourced", but
also having decided to outsource "why did it fail"?

The End

Tim

2003-03-10, 11:24 am

"somebody" <s0mbody@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news

ago6vo5du55om7hiqqeskuo2
5la6hhbfv@4ax.com...
> I'd say give your advice and view on things, and if they still don't get
it, heck, just do it
> 'their' way. Get their sign offs, etc. and if things go wrong, maybe they
will remember the time you
> told them it will go wrong. Managers gets the blame in the end(unless of
course he redirects the
> blame to you, then you might consider not even working for such a smut).
Then they'd get you back to
> fix it, yadda yadda. Who cares if its gonna cost the company three times
more in the future to
> maintain the poorly designed system right? You're more likely to be on a
better company who gives a
> damn about the future, by then.

This sounds like a bad strategy to me. Failing to make your case for the
'right' way to do things is a failure on your part, and I think you'd
deserve blame in that case. If you don't have the ability to communicate
what you know effectively, you probably won't succeed in that kind of role.
It's sometimes difficult and it's very distinct from technical aptitude, so
it's not unusual to see a technical whiz with no ability for 'selling' the
best solution. The buyers are usually less technically knowledgeable and are
often emotionally tied to a misguided plan. That's just the way it is, and
being able to overcome that is a requirement for doing quality work.

If the company is hiring an 'expert' who is unwilling or unable to guide
them to success, they're getting ripped off.

Alan Davis

2003-03-10, 11:24 am

somebody

2003-03-25, 3:23 am

hemm... yeah you're right. thanks.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:45:52 +0000, Alan Davis <™> wrote:

>>This sounds like a bad strategy to me. Failing to make your case for the
>>'right' way to do things is a failure on your part, and I think you'd
>>deserve blame in that case. If you don't have the ability to communicate
>>what you know effectively, you probably won't succeed in that kind of role.
>>It's sometimes difficult and it's very distinct from technical aptitude, so
>>it's not unusual to see a technical whiz with no ability for 'selling' the
>>best solution. The buyers are usually less technically knowledgeable and are
>>often emotionally tied to a misguided plan. That's just the way it is, and
>>being able to overcome that is a requirement for doing quality work.
>>
>>If the company is hiring an 'expert' who is unwilling or unable to guide
>>them to success, they're getting ripped off.
>>
>In one word - 'Professionalism'.
>
>Or in more than one word, being - Trustworthy, Competent,
>Knowledgeable. Responsible & Honest

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