|
Home > Archive > alt.certification.a-plus > January 2004 > brken mb battery clip
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
brken mb battery clip
|
|
|
| IBM PC 300GL
Broken motherboard battery clip. Big problem.
I couldn't slide the battery out of it's holder sideways, so I lifted the
clip up too far & it snapped right at its base.
I've tried to hold it in contact position with some super/crazy glue and
electrical tape. Which kinda worked for a while, but not permanently. Now
after each shut down, the bios settings are lost & .I have to find a decent
solution without replacing the motherboard ($$).
I have just removed the entire motherboard to see how the battery holder is
attached, and how I might be able to tackle the problem.
Underneath the board there are two 'pins' soldered - one must lead from the
clip (positive) and the other from the contact below the battery (negative).
One option I considered was applying a little heat, with an electrical
soldering iron, to these two points to free the entire battery holder? Maybe
I can replace it.
Another option is to try & solder the clip back in position. Problem is
there is no stem protruding and I'd have to try & cut away a bit of the hard
black plastic surrounding the base of the clip that remains below the
surface. This would have to be done with the battery in position which has
an explosive risk attached, and also the risk of dropping a bit of solder on
the mb.
Another thought was to take a bit of electric wire, strip the insulation and
try to attach one end to the battery (tape or solder or glue) and try to
wedge and/or solder or glue the other end to the remaining clip stem.
Or attach the electrical wire to the battery and take it around to the
bottom of the board to the point where the positive terminal solder
point/pin from the clip is located? The battery holder is located near the
edge of the mb so I could get some wire around.
Has anyone had and solved this problem - let me know what you think my best
avenue is - I gotta get this machine up and running again.
I've heard of an epoxy type glue with metal content that is conductive ?
--
xx
| |
| Ghost 2004-01-18, 11:24 pm |
| In article <xrHOb.4418$rW5.100802@news20.bellglobal.com>, "fhg"
<fhg@hotmail.com_(notreal)> wrote:
> IBM PC 300GL
>
> Broken motherboard battery clip. Big problem.
>
> I couldn't slide the battery out of it's holder sideways, so I lifted the
> clip up too far & it snapped right at its base.
>
> I've tried to hold it in contact position with some super/crazy glue and
> electrical tape. Which kinda worked for a while, but not permanently. Now
> after each shut down, the bios settings are lost & .I have to find a decent
> solution without replacing the motherboard ($$).
>
> I have just removed the entire motherboard to see how the battery holder is
> attached, and how I might be able to tackle the problem.
>
> Underneath the board there are two 'pins' soldered - one must lead from the
> clip (positive) and the other from the contact below the battery (negative).
>
> One option I considered was applying a little heat, with an electrical
> soldering iron, to these two points to free the entire battery holder? Maybe
> I can replace it.
>
> Another option is to try & solder the clip back in position. Problem is
> there is no stem protruding and I'd have to try & cut away a bit of the hard
> black plastic surrounding the base of the clip that remains below the
> surface. This would have to be done with the battery in position which has
> an explosive risk attached, and also the risk of dropping a bit of solder on
> the mb.
>
> Another thought was to take a bit of electric wire, strip the insulation and
> try to attach one end to the battery (tape or solder or glue) and try to
> wedge and/or solder or glue the other end to the remaining clip stem.
> Or attach the electrical wire to the battery and take it around to the
> bottom of the board to the point where the positive terminal solder
> point/pin from the clip is located? The battery holder is located near the
> edge of the mb so I could get some wire around.
>
> Has anyone had and solved this problem - let me know what you think my best
> avenue is - I gotta get this machine up and running again.
>
> I've heard of an epoxy type glue with metal content that is conductive ?
>
> --
> xx
Just replace the battery holder... generally there are just two solder
points (+ and -).
You might find a suitable replacement on some dead mobos you might have
lying around...
| |
|
|
the[color=blue]
Now[color=blue]
decent[color=blue]
is[color=blue]
the[color=blue]
(negative).[color=blue]
Maybe[color=blue]
hard[color=blue]
has[color=blue]
solder on[color=blue]
and[color=blue]
the[color=blue]
best[color=blue]
>
>
>
> Just replace the battery holder... generally there are just two solder
> points (+ and -).
>
> You might find a suitable replacement on some dead mobos you might have
> lying around...
I've only done an electric solder once before - plumbing is more what I'm
used to :-)
The two solder points on the underside of the board - one looks like it
comes from the bottom of the battery and the other looks like it comes from
the broken retaining clip stem. These are what you refer to -right ? If I
apply heat to these they should loosen and allow the entire holder o come
out ? And then if I find a replacement, push the two pins through the board
and solder them on the underside ?
| |
| hootnholler 2004-01-19, 12:23 am |
| Hi fhg,
Just to relieve any issues that you have in doing this, it's not unlike
sweating copper pipes. I'm an industrial technician and done both ;-)
If you apply heat to the bottom of the posts, on the underside of the
motherboard, you should be fine. If you start to see any discoloration on
the motherboard, stop applying heat. Usually, these are manufactured with a
solder 'paste', but a soldering iron is used to repair them. Try to use a
fine tip on the iron, applied directly to the solder, and it should come out
without any issue. If you notice any type of smoke, don't worry too much,
that's usually just a small coating, or a flux that is applied after the
'reflow' of the solder has been done. Just watch the board for any
discoloration, to the organic material itself.
When reapplying, make sure and use a form of flux. Around the holes, you
should notice the 'solder pad' and try to use those as best as possible.
That is actually the run, or the electrical contact that the battery needs.
When done, look for any 'solder balls' (small spatter of solder from the
initial heating) and remove. These can cause a short on the system, which
will put you in deep doo doo. If needed, use a solder 'wick' (small, copper
strand, usually found at most electrical sellers, like radio hut) to remove
them. You just heat the wick and drag across the solder balls to remove.
To tie to sweating, try to use the flux to 'drag' the flux around the
connection and solder pads.
Just like plumbing, get yourself setup, good lighting, firm work area. Take
two deep breaths and have at it. Just remember, this is not silver solder,
so you don't need quite that much heat...
Hoot
"fhg" <fhg@hotmail.com_(notreal)> wrote in message
news:fvIOb.3687$cQ6.124693@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> the
and[color=blue]
> Now
> decent
holder[color=blue]
> is
from[color=blue]
> the
> (negative).
> Maybe
is[color=blue]
the[color=blue]
> hard
> has
> solder on
insulation[color=blue]
> and
to[color=blue]
> the
> best
?[color=blue]
>
> I've only done an electric solder once before - plumbing is more what I'm
> used to :-)
> The two solder points on the underside of the board - one looks like it
> comes from the bottom of the battery and the other looks like it comes
from
> the broken retaining clip stem. These are what you refer to -right ? If I
> apply heat to these they should loosen and allow the entire holder o come
> out ? And then if I find a replacement, push the two pins through the
board
> and solder them on the underside ?
>
>
| |
| Barry Watzman 2004-01-19, 12:24 am |
| First, a warning: Do not try to solder directly to a Lithium battery,
you can cause a SERIOUS explosion with the potential do quite a bit of
damage (you could lose a hand). Lithim can be dangerous stuff under the
wrong circumstances, and heating to 600 degrees is DEFINITELY the
"wrong" circumstances.
The battery holder can be replaced. It's thru-hole soldered to the
board, and not too difficult for a good electronics technician to remove
(whether that group includes you or not, I can't say). You will have to
find a matching socket, that also should not be too difficult, there are
only a few standard hole patterns, in fact some motherboards have holes
for several types of sockets. One possibility is to buy a junk
motherboard -- often sold at computer shows for about $5 -- and remove
the socket, you may find a socket at radio shack, or you can find them
at industrial electronics distributors. If you get a socket that holds
the battery but doesn't fit the motherboard, then you could use wires to
connect the socket to the motherboard.
fhg wrote:
> IBM PC 300GL
>
> Broken motherboard battery clip. Big problem.
>
> I couldn't slide the battery out of it's holder sideways, so I lifted the
> clip up too far & it snapped right at its base.
>
> I've tried to hold it in contact position with some super/crazy glue and
> electrical tape. Which kinda worked for a while, but not permanently. Now
> after each shut down, the bios settings are lost & .I have to find a decent
> solution without replacing the motherboard ($$).
>
> I have just removed the entire motherboard to see how the battery holder is
> attached, and how I might be able to tackle the problem.
>
> Underneath the board there are two 'pins' soldered - one must lead from the
> clip (positive) and the other from the contact below the battery (negative).
>
> One option I considered was applying a little heat, with an electrical
> soldering iron, to these two points to free the entire battery holder? Maybe
> I can replace it.
>
> Another option is to try & solder the clip back in position. Problem is
> there is no stem protruding and I'd have to try & cut away a bit of the hard
> black plastic surrounding the base of the clip that remains below the
> surface. This would have to be done with the battery in position which has
> an explosive risk attached, and also the risk of dropping a bit of solder on
> the mb.
>
> Another thought was to take a bit of electric wire, strip the insulation and
> try to attach one end to the battery (tape or solder or glue) and try to
> wedge and/or solder or glue the other end to the remaining clip stem.
> Or attach the electrical wire to the battery and take it around to the
> bottom of the board to the point where the positive terminal solder
> point/pin from the clip is located? The battery holder is located near the
> edge of the mb so I could get some wire around.
>
> Has anyone had and solved this problem - let me know what you think my best
> avenue is - I gotta get this machine up and running again.
>
> I've heard of an epoxy type glue with metal content that is conductive ?
>
> --
> xx
>
>
| |
| Barry Watzman 2004-01-19, 12:24 am |
| First, a warning: Do not try to solder directly to a Lithium battery,
you can cause a SERIOUS explosion with the potential do quite a bit of
damage (you could lose a hand). Lithim can be dangerous stuff under the
wrong circumstances, and heating to 600 degrees is DEFINITELY the
"wrong" circumstances.
The battery holder can be replaced. It's thru-hole soldered to the
board, and not too difficult for a good electronics technician to remove
(whether that group includes you or not, I can't say). You will have to
find a matching socket, that also should not be too difficult, there are
only a few standard hole patterns, in fact some motherboards have holes
for several types of sockets. One possibility is to buy a junk
motherboard -- often sold at computer shows for about $5 -- and remove
the socket, you may find a socket at radio shack, or you can find them
at industrial electronics distributors. If you get a socket that holds
the battery but doesn't fit the motherboard, then you could use wires to
connect the socket to the motherboard.
fhg wrote:
> IBM PC 300GL
>
> Broken motherboard battery clip. Big problem.
>
> I couldn't slide the battery out of it's holder sideways, so I lifted the
> clip up too far & it snapped right at its base.
>
> I've tried to hold it in contact position with some super/crazy glue and
> electrical tape. Which kinda worked for a while, but not permanently. Now
> after each shut down, the bios settings are lost & .I have to find a decent
> solution without replacing the motherboard ($$).
>
> I have just removed the entire motherboard to see how the battery holder is
> attached, and how I might be able to tackle the problem.
>
> Underneath the board there are two 'pins' soldered - one must lead from the
> clip (positive) and the other from the contact below the battery (negative).
>
> One option I considered was applying a little heat, with an electrical
> soldering iron, to these two points to free the entire battery holder? Maybe
> I can replace it.
>
> Another option is to try & solder the clip back in position. Problem is
> there is no stem protruding and I'd have to try & cut away a bit of the hard
> black plastic surrounding the base of the clip that remains below the
> surface. This would have to be done with the battery in position which has
> an explosive risk attached, and also the risk of dropping a bit of solder on
> the mb.
>
> Another thought was to take a bit of electric wire, strip the insulation and
> try to attach one end to the battery (tape or solder or glue) and try to
> wedge and/or solder or glue the other end to the remaining clip stem.
> Or attach the electrical wire to the battery and take it around to the
> bottom of the board to the point where the positive terminal solder
> point/pin from the clip is located? The battery holder is located near the
> edge of the mb so I could get some wire around.
>
> Has anyone had and solved this problem - let me know what you think my best
> avenue is - I gotta get this machine up and running again.
>
> I've heard of an epoxy type glue with metal content that is conductive ?
>
> --
> xx
>
>
| |
| Barry Watzman 2004-01-19, 12:24 am |
| Find someone who knows how to do this. It's a 2-3 minute job if you
know how to do it, but you can EASILY ruin the board if you don't know
how to do it. Using the wrong solder type (do NOT use plumbing solder)
or the wrong soldering tool can also ruin the board. It's actually a
fairly easy job, again, for someone who knows what they are doing.
fhg wrote:
>
> the
>
>
> Now
>
>
> decent
>
>
> is
>
>
> the
>
>
> (negative).
>
>
> Maybe
>
>
> hard
>
>
> has
>
>
> solder on
>
>
> and
>
>
> the
>
>
> best
>
>
>
> I've only done an electric solder once before - plumbing is more what I'm
> used to :-)
> The two solder points on the underside of the board - one looks like it
> comes from the bottom of the battery and the other looks like it comes from
> the broken retaining clip stem. These are what you refer to -right ? If I
> apply heat to these they should loosen and allow the entire holder o come
> out ? And then if I find a replacement, push the two pins through the board
> and solder them on the underside ?
>
>
| |
| Barry Watzman 2004-01-19, 12:24 am |
| Find someone who knows how to do this. It's a 2-3 minute job if you
know how to do it, but you can EASILY ruin the board if you don't know
how to do it. Using the wrong solder type (do NOT use plumbing solder)
or the wrong soldering tool can also ruin the board. It's actually a
fairly easy job, again, for someone who knows what they are doing.
fhg wrote:
>
> the
>
>
> Now
>
>
> decent
>
>
> is
>
>
> the
>
>
> (negative).
>
>
> Maybe
>
>
> hard
>
>
> has
>
>
> solder on
>
>
> and
>
>
> the
>
>
> best
>
>
>
> I've only done an electric solder once before - plumbing is more what I'm
> used to :-)
> The two solder points on the underside of the board - one looks like it
> comes from the bottom of the battery and the other looks like it comes from
> the broken retaining clip stem. These are what you refer to -right ? If I
> apply heat to these they should loosen and allow the entire holder o come
> out ? And then if I find a replacement, push the two pins through the board
> and solder them on the underside ?
>
>
| |
| Kenny Cargill 2004-01-19, 3:24 am |
| I've found identical battery clips in old car radios and even in old VCR's.
Like others have said if you're experienced in soldering/desoldering very
easy to change but if not you can ruin it.
--
Kenny
"Cigarettes are killers that travel in packs."
"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:QxJOb.20914$DE.5350@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> First, a warning: Do not try to solder directly to a Lithium battery,
> you can cause a SERIOUS explosion with the potential do quite a bit of
> damage (you could lose a hand). Lithim can be dangerous stuff under the
> wrong circumstances, and heating to 600 degrees is DEFINITELY the
> "wrong" circumstances.
>
> The battery holder can be replaced. It's thru-hole soldered to the
> board, and not too difficult for a good electronics technician to remove
> (whether that group includes you or not, I can't say). You will have to
> find a matching socket, that also should not be too difficult, there are
> only a few standard hole patterns, in fact some motherboards have holes
> for several types of sockets. One possibility is to buy a junk
> motherboard -- often sold at computer shows for about $5 -- and remove
> the socket, you may find a socket at radio shack, or you can find them
> at industrial electronics distributors. If you get a socket that holds
> the battery but doesn't fit the motherboard, then you could use wires to
> connect the socket to the motherboard.
>
>
> fhg wrote:
>
the[color=blue]
Now[color=blue]
decent[color=blue]
is[color=blue]
the[color=blue]
(negative).[color=blue]
Maybe[color=blue]
hard[color=blue]
has[color=blue]
solder on[color=blue]
and[color=blue]
the[color=blue]
best[color=blue]
>
| |
| Alex Perez 2004-01-19, 12:24 pm |
| To keep it simple, just use a paper clip to provide the negative and use
some kind of tape to keep it in place. This would work if you are not moving
the PC around. I had the same problem with a different mobo, did the trick
explained above and it has been two years since.
Give a try.
Alex perez
"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MAJOb.20915$DE.4559@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> Find someone who knows how to do this. It's a 2-3 minute job if you
> know how to do it, but you can EASILY ruin the board if you don't know
> how to do it. Using the wrong solder type (do NOT use plumbing solder)
> or the wrong soldering tool can also ruin the board. It's actually a
> fairly easy job, again, for someone who knows what they are doing.
>
>
> fhg wrote:
>
and[color=blue]
holder[color=blue]
insulation[color=blue]
to[color=blue]
?[color=blue]
I'm[color=blue]
from[color=blue]
I[color=blue]
come[color=blue]
board[color=blue]
>
| |
|
| In article <fvIOb.3687$cQ6.124693@news20.bellglobal.com>, "fhg"
<fhg@hotmail.com_(notreal)> wrote:
> the
> Now
> decent
> is
> the
> (negative).
> Maybe
> hard
> has
> solder on
> and
> the
> best
>
> I've only done an electric solder once before - plumbing is more what I'm
> used to :-)
> The two solder points on the underside of the board - one looks like it
> comes from the bottom of the battery and the other looks like it comes from
> the broken retaining clip stem. These are what you refer to -right ? If I
> apply heat to these they should loosen and allow the entire holder o come
> out ? And then if I find a replacement, push the two pins through the board
> and solder them on the underside ?
Essentially, correct.. but be careful not to apply too much heat or you
will destroy the mobo...
| |
|
| removing the old one sounds easy enough - heat the two points on the
underside and lift the holder up & out.
However, replacing a new one and soldering the points back to ensure the
contact with the mb circuitry (pad, run, balls, wick......... yikes !
--
xx
"hootnholler" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:%XIOb.39562$LW.21777@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Hi fhg,
>
> Just to relieve any issues that you have in doing this, it's not unlike
> sweating copper pipes. I'm an industrial technician and done both ;-)
>
> If you apply heat to the bottom of the posts, on the underside of the
> motherboard, you should be fine. If you start to see any discoloration on
> the motherboard, stop applying heat. Usually, these are manufactured with
a
> solder 'paste', but a soldering iron is used to repair them. Try to use a
> fine tip on the iron, applied directly to the solder, and it should come
out
> without any issue. If you notice any type of smoke, don't worry too much,
> that's usually just a small coating, or a flux that is applied after the
> 'reflow' of the solder has been done. Just watch the board for any
> discoloration, to the organic material itself.
>
> When reapplying, make sure and use a form of flux. Around the holes, you
> should notice the 'solder pad' and try to use those as best as possible.
> That is actually the run, or the electrical contact that the battery
needs.
> When done, look for any 'solder balls' (small spatter of solder from the
> initial heating) and remove. These can cause a short on the system, which
> will put you in deep doo doo. If needed, use a solder 'wick' (small,
copper
> strand, usually found at most electrical sellers, like radio hut) to
remove
> them. You just heat the wick and drag across the solder balls to remove.
> To tie to sweating, try to use the flux to 'drag' the flux around the
> connection and solder pads.
>
> Just like plumbing, get yourself setup, good lighting, firm work area.
Take
> two deep breaths and have at it. Just remember, this is not silver
solder,
> so you don't need quite that much heat...
>
> Hoot
>
>
> "fhg" <fhg@hotmail.com_(notreal)> wrote in message
> news:fvIOb.3687$cQ6.124693@news20.bellglobal.com...
lifted[color=blue]
> and
permanently.[color=blue]
> holder
> from
electrical[color=blue]
holder?[color=blue]
> is
> the
the[color=blue]
which[color=blue]
> insulation
try[color=blue]
> to
stem.[color=blue]
the[color=blue]
near[color=blue]
my[color=blue]
conductive[color=blue]
> ?
have[color=blue]
I'm[color=blue]
> from
I[color=blue]
come[color=blue]
> board
>
>
| |
|
| or piece of copper wire in lieu of the paper clip ?
--
> To keep it simple, just use a paper clip to provide the negative and use
> some kind of tape to keep it in place. This would work if you are not
moving
> the PC around. I had the same problem with a different mobo, did the trick
> explained above and it has been two years since.
>
> Give a try.
>
> Alex perez
>
> "Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:MAJOb.20915$DE.4559@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
> and
> holder
from[color=blue]
electrical[color=blue]
holder?[color=blue]
is[color=blue]
the[color=blue]
which[color=blue]
> insulation
> to
stem.[color=blue]
the[color=blue]
near[color=blue]
my[color=blue]
conductive[color=blue]
> ?
have[color=blue]
> I'm
it[color=blue]
comes[color=blue]
> from
If[color=blue]
> I
> come
> board
>
>
| |
|
| Thanks to all for replies.
Do you think a 2 battery AAA or AA battery holder (Radio Shack) with pos.
wire attached (soldered if possible) to the broken off stem of the clip (I
can file away the black pastic and expose it a wee bit), and the other neg.
wire attached to the silver bit that was beneath the battery in the holder,
would do it?
If I could get away with AAA rather than AA it would save a little space.
Another option may be a cell phone battery with the plug cut off and the
wires attached
I feel a little unsure of replacing the original holder - heating the two
points on the mb underside and lifting the holder up and out sounds doable.
However getting a replacement attached correctly with the right contact to
the circuitry sounds more challenging.
| |
| polishpickle 2004-01-20, 5:24 pm |
| no you would need a 1 battery unit
"fhg" <fhg@hotmail.com_(notreal)> wrote in message
news:G12Pb.5021$rW5.249096@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Thanks to all for replies.
>
> Do you think a 2 battery AAA or AA battery holder (Radio Shack) with pos.
> wire attached (soldered if possible) to the broken off stem of the clip (I
> can file away the black pastic and expose it a wee bit), and the other
neg.
> wire attached to the silver bit that was beneath the battery in the
holder,
> would do it?
> If I could get away with AAA rather than AA it would save a little space.
> Another option may be a cell phone battery with the plug cut off and the
> wires attached
>
> I feel a little unsure of replacing the original holder - heating the two
> points on the mb underside and lifting the holder up and out sounds
doable.
> However getting a replacement attached correctly with the right contact to
> the circuitry sounds more challenging.
>
>
>
| |
| Barry Watzman 2004-01-20, 5:24 pm |
| No, you would need a 2 battery unit.
The "coin cell" is lithium, it's a bit over 3 volts.
AA and AAA's are basically 1.25 to 1.55 volts per cell (carbon-zinc,
alkaline, NiCad, etc.), you'd need two cells.
polishpickle wrote:
> no you would need a 1 battery unit
>
> "fhg" <fhg@hotmail.com_(notreal)> wrote in message
> news:G12Pb.5021$rW5.249096@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
>
> neg.
>
>
> holder,
>
>
> doable.
>
>
>
>
>
| |
|
| in principle, is it a viable option to use one of these?
> No, you would need a 2 battery unit.
>
> The "coin cell" is lithium, it's a bit over 3 volts.
>
> AA and AAA's are basically 1.25 to 1.55 volts per cell (carbon-zinc,
> alkaline, NiCad, etc.), you'd need two cells.
>
>
> polishpickle wrote:
>
pos.[color=blue]
(I[color=blue]
space.[color=blue]
two[color=blue]
to[color=blue]
>
| |
| Barry Watzman 2004-01-21, 12:24 am |
| Yes, but I'd be a bit concerned that the voltage would not be exactly
right. However, it would probably work ok.
fhg wrote:
> in principle, is it a viable option to use one of these?
>
>
>
>
> pos.
>
>
> (I
>
>
> space.
>
>
> two
>
>
> to
>
>
>
| |
| SBFan2000 2004-01-21, 2:23 am |
| matter of fact some old motherboards (back in the day) used those 2 AA or
AAA packs as their cmos battery. I used to have tons of them sitting around
until I realized I would probably never use them.
"fhg" <fhg@hotmail.com_(notreal)> wrote in message
news:O6hPb.5313$rW5.304167@news20.bellglobal.com...
> in principle, is it a viable option to use one of these?
>
>
> pos.
clip[color=blue]
> (I
> space.
the[color=blue]
> two
contact[color=blue]
> to
>
>
| |
|
| Thanks everyone - I'm going to see if I can get a 'coin battery' type holder
in this neck of the woods - it's proving to be difficult though so I may
resort to a 2x AAA which I can find here
> matter of fact some old motherboards (back in the day) used those 2 AA or
> AAA packs as their cmos battery. I used to have tons of them sitting
around
> until I realized I would probably never use them.
>
>
> "fhg" <fhg@hotmail.com_(notreal)> wrote in message
> news:O6hPb.5313$rW5.304167@news20.bellglobal.com...
> clip
other[color=blue]
> the
the[color=blue]
> contact
>
>
|
|
|
|
|