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More Wage Questions
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| wbekfo@csonline.net 2003-03-30, 12:23 pm |
| First, a big Thank You to all who took the time to reply and answer
my question above regarding wages for a newly minted A+ tech. I
appreciate your candor but must admit my surprise at the low entry wages
quoted by everyone that replied.
While I am quite aware of the fact the A+ is the entry level
certification, I must confess when I see a job for $7/hr as a computer
tech vs $7.50 hour for holding a flag for road construction ( skill
needed to do that??) I am having a hard time understanding the
'justification' for low wages for an entry level Computer Tech.
I feel as though I have been misled. I am a later mid life career
changer and while I totally understand the A+ is entry level and
experience in this, like any field, is what matters, these wages are
pathetic imho. If someone is going to be paid $7.50 an hour to merely
hold a sign that says Stop on it- and to do what a computer tech is
capable of or required to do takes a bit more more knowledge and then
make less, something is totally out of kilter here.
So I guess my next question is- Computer Support Specialists are
supposed to be one of the hot growth areas in terms of employment in the
next decade and why I opted to go this route for a new career. Can
someone explain what particular certifications are needed and amount of
and specific experience it will take to become a CSSpecialist and earn
the mean $34K that the Federal Governments own BOL statistics quotes for
a Computer Support Specialist? Would self employment as one person
mentioned be crediable experience?
Again any and all insight and candor is really and most appreciated.
It seems like one might (is?) better off going into something like
Databases or programming to make a decent wage compared to the technical
side of computer maintenance or have I missed something here? Not having
the luxury of time that a 20 year old has, I need to find a facet of IT
that pays a living wage without investing 10+ years to get there(be
ready to almost retire by then!)! Thanks again ahead of time for all
your great thoughts and comments.
| |
|
| It really depends on where you are as to the wages paid. However, with the contstant stream of people going through training institutions and coming out with A+, Net+, MCP etc., but with no practical experience, these certifications are slowly being devalued. One of the sad facts of life is that as long as major corporations are able to outsource to countries like India where there are many hundreds of certified people willing to work for low money then they will continue in that vein and the follow-ojn is that domestic wages are held down. Another major factor in this was the dot.com greed of a few years back where many completely inept people were earning high dollars riding on the back of a labor shortage and the Y2K myth. I know of one company where over a million was spent on Y2K and afterwards found out that they didn't need to as their systems were already Y2K compliant (this was pointed out by an outside specialist who was brought in to sort problems that the 'so called' experienced techs could not solve).
--
RussS
MCP W2K Pro & Server, A+, Net+
http://www.techexams.net/
| |
| Test Account 2003-03-30, 4:23 pm |
| The difference is that guy holding the stop sign will ONLY ever make $7.50
an hour! No one is going to pay you a ton of money without experience in
any profession... If that was the case I would be doing brain surgery on a
regular basis... Now go put your time in!
<wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message news:3E872D55.B504018@csonline.net...
> First, a big Thank You to all who took the time to reply and answer
> my question above regarding wages for a newly minted A+ tech. I
> appreciate your candor but must admit my surprise at the low entry wages
> quoted by everyone that replied.
> While I am quite aware of the fact the A+ is the entry level
> certification, I must confess when I see a job for $7/hr as a computer
> tech vs $7.50 hour for holding a flag for road construction ( skill
> needed to do that??) I am having a hard time understanding the
> 'justification' for low wages for an entry level Computer Tech.
> I feel as though I have been misled. I am a later mid life career
> changer and while I totally understand the A+ is entry level and
> experience in this, like any field, is what matters, these wages are
> pathetic imho. If someone is going to be paid $7.50 an hour to merely
> hold a sign that says Stop on it- and to do what a computer tech is
> capable of or required to do takes a bit more more knowledge and then
> make less, something is totally out of kilter here.
> So I guess my next question is- Computer Support Specialists are
> supposed to be one of the hot growth areas in terms of employment in the
> next decade and why I opted to go this route for a new career. Can
> someone explain what particular certifications are needed and amount of
> and specific experience it will take to become a CSSpecialist and earn
> the mean $34K that the Federal Governments own BOL statistics quotes for
> a Computer Support Specialist? Would self employment as one person
> mentioned be crediable experience?
> Again any and all insight and candor is really and most appreciated.
> It seems like one might (is?) better off going into something like
> Databases or programming to make a decent wage compared to the technical
> side of computer maintenance or have I missed something here? Not having
> the luxury of time that a 20 year old has, I need to find a facet of IT
> that pays a living wage without investing 10+ years to get there(be
> ready to almost retire by then!)! Thanks again ahead of time for all
> your great thoughts and comments.
>
>
| |
| wbekfo@csonline.net 2003-03-31, 6:23 am |
| You know at one time I would have believed you regarding the that's all he
will ever make from what I saying this is true in IT as well. That is the gist
of what I am asking about. In my locale, I am NOT seeing better wages for those
who have put their time in! When the highest wage is $10-12 per hour for a
highly technical field that's pathetic and I am trying to determine why. Is it
my geographic location? Or common throught the industry? Possibly it's all the
quasi- 'certifications' that seem to available anywhere for a fee and the law of
supply and demand has taken over ie to many and not enough jobs? That is what I
am trying to ascertain and why the questions. I am a late mid lifer trying to
change careers at age 52. As far as putting the time in, I don't have the luxury
of a 20 year old if I am going to put 10 years in and make only what the local
McDs assistant manager makes! I might was well do that now because I will be
dollars ahead in a cost benefit analysis ie be making that much, much sooner at
McDonalds and for a longer period!
Oh and as far as someone paying you a ton of money without experience? Maybe
you need to come out from behind that monitor and talk to others about what they
make. Most other skilled occupations pay STARTING out a decent living wage in
case you didn't know. I am trying to find out what this is NOT the case for IT.
I am not expecting a 'ton' just fair compensation and a living wage-living
defined as an ability to pay bills with the earnings. .Go ask a recent nurse
graduate what she or he is making with NO experience!($15-30 per hour!) Same
with a rad tech or ultrasound tech. Or any 2 year tech graduate of program
related to engineering fields. For some reason I am not seeing a similar
compensation for a new entry into the IT field for the knowledge achieved and
why the questions. I am trying to find out why this is NOT the case with IT. The
logic behind getting knowledge and training is to put you ahead of the curve in
the rate of pay ie education and traing is a substitute for entry level
experience. If a person entering IT without any formal training or certification
is making the same as someone who has taken the time to do that then Something
is wrong in this field big time and its apparent no one is asking why to correct
it.
I have no problem putting time in but if the compensation is not there it's
not worth the effort is my point and reason for the questions. I also see a less
than clearly delineated methodology for achieving success in the IT profession
ie if a person wants to be an engineering tech or a nurse or whatever, what you
have to do and know is clearly spelled out, I don't see that in the IT world. If
this is error please show me where I can find such information and is part of my
question so that I don't waste time or go in erroneous directions.
I appreciate your replying but I don't need a lecture on work ethics, I am
seeking hard factual information with respect to my question(s) and not pompous
smug replies.
Test Account wrote:
> The difference is that guy holding the stop sign will ONLY ever make $7.50
> an hour! No one is going to pay you a ton of money without experience in
> any profession... If that was the case I would be doing brain surgery on a
> regular basis... Now go put your time in!
>
> <wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message news:3E872D55.B504018@csonline.net...
> > First, a big Thank You to all who took the time to reply and answer
> > my question above regarding wages for a newly minted A+ tech. I
> > appreciate your candor but must admit my surprise at the low entry wages
> > quoted by everyone that replied.
> > While I am quite aware of the fact the A+ is the entry level
> > certification, I must confess when I see a job for $7/hr as a computer
> > tech vs $7.50 hour for holding a flag for road construction ( skill
> > needed to do that??) I am having a hard time understanding the
> > 'justification' for low wages for an entry level Computer Tech.
> > I feel as though I have been misled. I am a later mid life career
> > changer and while I totally understand the A+ is entry level and
> > experience in this, like any field, is what matters, these wages are
> > pathetic imho. If someone is going to be paid $7.50 an hour to merely
> > hold a sign that says Stop on it- and to do what a computer tech is
> > capable of or required to do takes a bit more more knowledge and then
> > make less, something is totally out of kilter here.
> > So I guess my next question is- Computer Support Specialists are
> > supposed to be one of the hot growth areas in terms of employment in the
> > next decade and why I opted to go this route for a new career. Can
> > someone explain what particular certifications are needed and amount of
> > and specific experience it will take to become a CSSpecialist and earn
> > the mean $34K that the Federal Governments own BOL statistics quotes for
> > a Computer Support Specialist? Would self employment as one person
> > mentioned be crediable experience?
> > Again any and all insight and candor is really and most appreciated.
> > It seems like one might (is?) better off going into something like
> > Databases or programming to make a decent wage compared to the technical
> > side of computer maintenance or have I missed something here? Not having
> > the luxury of time that a 20 year old has, I need to find a facet of IT
> > that pays a living wage without investing 10+ years to get there(be
> > ready to almost retire by then!)! Thanks again ahead of time for all
> > your great thoughts and comments.
> >
> >
| |
| Daniel Lawrence 2003-03-31, 7:23 am |
| There is no simple answer to your question, but there are factors that play a role:
1) too many trade schools pumping out "certified" people who will work for nothing.
2) The poor economic conditions
3) Geography does play a role, in high tech sectors like Silicone Valley for example you get more than in the middle of no where
4) In my personal opinion because of the whole Y2K/Dot com bullshit companies are exacting revenge on the industry for the costs they incurred.
5) Another factor will be that those other skilled trades you mentioned have a real education as opposed to getting a certification in under a year then getting some experience and expecting to earn as much as a doctor or lawyer which is not going to happen.
--
Daniel Lawrence
A+
<wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message news:3E8831E4.618B3CD3@csonline.net...
You know at one time I would have believed you regarding the that's all he will ever make from what I saying this is true in IT as well. That is the gist of what I am asking about. In my locale, I am NOT seeing better wages for those who have put their time in! When the highest wage is $10-12 per hour for a highly technical field that's pathetic and I am trying to determine why. Is it my geographic location? Or common throught the industry? Possibly it's all the quasi- 'certifications' that seem to available anywhere for a fee and the law of supply and demand has taken over ie to many and not enough jobs? That is what I am trying to ascertain and why the questions. I am a late mid lifer trying to change careers at age 52. As far as putting the time in, I don't have the luxury of a 20 year old if I am going to put 10 years in and make only what the local McDs assistant manager makes! I might was well do that now because I will be dollars ahead in a cost benefit analysis ie be making that much, much sooner at McDonalds and for a longer period!
Oh and as far as someone paying you a ton of money without experience? Maybe you need to come out from behind that monitor and talk to others about what they make. Most other skilled occupations pay STARTING out a decent living wage in case you didn't know. I am trying to find out what this is NOT the case for IT. I am not expecting a 'ton' just fair compensation and a living wage-living defined as an ability to pay bills with the earnings. .Go ask a recent nurse graduate what she or he is making with NO experience!($15-30 per hour!) Same with a rad tech or ultrasound tech. Or any 2 year tech graduate of program related to engineering fields. For some reason I am not seeing a similar compensation for a new entry into the IT field for the knowledge achieved and why the questions. I am trying to find out why this is NOT the case with IT. The logic behind getting knowledge and training is to put you ahead of the curve in the rate of pay ie education and traing is a substitute for entry level experience. If a person entering IT without any formal training or certification is making the same as someone who has taken the time to do that then Something is wrong in this field big time and its apparent no one is asking why to correct it.
I have no problem putting time in but if the compensation is not there it's not worth the effort is my point and reason for the questions. I also see a less than clearly delineated methodology for achieving success in the IT profession ie if a person wants to be an engineering tech or a nurse or whatever, what you have to do and know is clearly spelled out, I don't see that in the IT world. If this is error please show me where I can find such information and is part of my question so that I don't waste time or go in erroneous directions.
I appreciate your replying but I don't need a lecture on work ethics, I am seeking hard factual information with respect to my question(s) and not pompous smug replies.
Test Account wrote:
The difference is that guy holding the stop sign will ONLY ever make $7.50
an hour! No one is going to pay you a ton of money without experience in
any profession... If that was the case I would be doing brain surgery on a
regular basis... Now go put your time in!
<wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message news:3E872D55.B504018@csonline.net...
> First, a big Thank You to all who took the time to reply and answer
> my question above regarding wages for a newly minted A+ tech. I
> appreciate your candor but must admit my surprise at the low entry wages
> quoted by everyone that replied.
> While I am quite aware of the fact the A+ is the entry level
> certification, I must confess when I see a job for $7/hr as a computer
> tech vs $7.50 hour for holding a flag for road construction ( skill
> needed to do that??) I am having a hard time understanding the
> 'justification' for low wages for an entry level Computer Tech.
> I feel as though I have been misled. I am a later mid life career
> changer and while I totally understand the A+ is entry level and
> experience in this, like any field, is what matters, these wages are
> pathetic imho. If someone is going to be paid $7.50 an hour to merely
> hold a sign that says Stop on it- and to do what a computer tech is
> capable of or required to do takes a bit more more knowledge and then
> make less, something is totally out of kilter here.
> So I guess my next question is- Computer Support Specialists are
> supposed to be one of the hot growth areas in terms of employment in the
> next decade and why I opted to go this route for a new career. Can
> someone explain what particular certifications are needed and amount of
> and specific experience it will take to become a CSSpecialist and earn
> the mean $34K that the Federal Governments own BOL statistics quotes for
> a Computer Support Specialist? Would self employment as one person
> mentioned be crediable experience?
> Again any and all insight and candor is really and most appreciated.
> It seems like one might (is?) better off going into something like
> Databases or programming to make a decent wage compared to the technical
> side of computer maintenance or have I missed something here? Not having
> the luxury of time that a 20 year old has, I need to find a facet of IT
> that pays a living wage without investing 10+ years to get there(be
> ready to almost retire by then!)! Thanks again ahead of time for all
> your great thoughts and comments.
>
>
| |
| ImhoTech 2003-03-31, 9:23 am |
| I suggest you go with the McDonald's Job.
<wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message news:3E8831E4.618B3CD3@csonline.net...
You know at one time I would have believed you regarding the that's all he will ever make from what I saying this is true in IT as well. That is the gist of what I am asking about. In my locale, I am NOT seeing better wages for those who have put their time in! When the highest wage is $10-12 per hour for a highly technical field that's pathetic and I am trying to determine why. Is it my geographic location? Or common throught the industry? Possibly it's all the quasi- 'certifications' that seem to available anywhere for a fee and the law of supply and demand has taken over ie to many and not enough jobs? That is what I am trying to ascertain and why the questions. I am a late mid lifer trying to change careers at age 52. As far as putting the time in, I don't have the luxury of a 20 year old if I am going to put 10 years in and make only what the local McDs assistant manager makes! I might was well do that now because I will be dollars ahead in a cost benefit analysis ie be making that much, much sooner at McDonalds and for a longer period!
Oh and as far as someone paying you a ton of money without experience? Maybe you need to come out from behind that monitor and talk to others about what they make. Most other skilled occupations pay STARTING out a decent living wage in case you didn't know. I am trying to find out what this is NOT the case for IT. I am not expecting a 'ton' just fair compensation and a living wage-living defined as an ability to pay bills with the earnings. .Go ask a recent nurse graduate what she or he is making with NO experience!($15-30 per hour!) Same with a rad tech or ultrasound tech. Or any 2 year tech graduate of program related to engineering fields. For some reason I am not seeing a similar compensation for a new entry into the IT field for the knowledge achieved and why the questions. I am trying to find out why this is NOT the case with IT. The logic behind getting knowledge and training is to put you ahead of the curve in the rate of pay ie education and traing is a substitute for entry level experience. If a person entering IT without any formal training or certification is making the same as someone who has taken the time to do that then Something is wrong in this field big time and its apparent no one is asking why to correct it.
I have no problem putting time in but if the compensation is not there it's not worth the effort is my point and reason for the questions. I also see a less than clearly delineated methodology for achieving success in the IT profession ie if a person wants to be an engineering tech or a nurse or whatever, what you have to do and know is clearly spelled out, I don't see that in the IT world. If this is error please show me where I can find such information and is part of my question so that I don't waste time or go in erroneous directions.
I appreciate your replying but I don't need a lecture on work ethics, I am seeking hard factual information with respect to my question(s) and not pompous smug replies.
Test Account wrote:
The difference is that guy holding the stop sign will ONLY ever make $7.50
an hour! No one is going to pay you a ton of money without experience in
any profession... If that was the case I would be doing brain surgery on a
regular basis... Now go put your time in!
<wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message news:3E872D55.B504018@csonline.net...
> First, a big Thank You to all who took the time to reply and answer
> my question above regarding wages for a newly minted A+ tech. I
> appreciate your candor but must admit my surprise at the low entry wages
> quoted by everyone that replied.
> While I am quite aware of the fact the A+ is the entry level
> certification, I must confess when I see a job for $7/hr as a computer
> tech vs $7.50 hour for holding a flag for road construction ( skill
> needed to do that??) I am having a hard time understanding the
> 'justification' for low wages for an entry level Computer Tech.
> I feel as though I have been misled. I am a later mid life career
> changer and while I totally understand the A+ is entry level and
> experience in this, like any field, is what matters, these wages are
> pathetic imho. If someone is going to be paid $7.50 an hour to merely
> hold a sign that says Stop on it- and to do what a computer tech is
> capable of or required to do takes a bit more more knowledge and then
> make less, something is totally out of kilter here.
> So I guess my next question is- Computer Support Specialists are
> supposed to be one of the hot growth areas in terms of employment in the
> next decade and why I opted to go this route for a new career. Can
> someone explain what particular certifications are needed and amount of
> and specific experience it will take to become a CSSpecialist and earn
> the mean $34K that the Federal Governments own BOL statistics quotes for
> a Computer Support Specialist? Would self employment as one person
> mentioned be crediable experience?
> Again any and all insight and candor is really and most appreciated.
> It seems like one might (is?) better off going into something like
> Databases or programming to make a decent wage compared to the technical
> side of computer maintenance or have I missed something here? Not having
> the luxury of time that a 20 year old has, I need to find a facet of IT
> that pays a living wage without investing 10+ years to get there(be
> ready to almost retire by then!)! Thanks again ahead of time for all
> your great thoughts and comments.
>
>
| |
|
| Daniel
Thank you. That's the kind of discourse I am seeking and you
answered some of my suspicions namely:
1. All the plethora of 'schools' pumping 'certified' people has
diluted the supply of people so much there is no longer any uniqueness
and value to the fact a person has applied themselves to earn
certification and thus set themselves apart from the rest. Translation,
only experience has any real value to an employer a certification is
something of a 'bonus' an employer gets when selecting between canidates
and a means to jusitfy hiring one person over another.
2. Unfortunately that is a given and those with experience will most
likely be hired since they can hit the ground running. Not much can be
done here at present other than accept any job that is offered.
3. Geography was one I feared and it seems like those areas in any
kind of growth will be offering more- wanted someone else to confirm
that belief.
4. Interesting- that maybe also why they are exporting jobs such as
help desk and programming overseas now.
5. If I am interpretting you correctly what you are saying is unlike
a traditional college program most of the IT certifications are
concerned primarily with passing the 'test' vs having any real
knowledge? Not putting down those who do have the knowledge, but it
seems that the title (aka certificate) comes first then the knowledge
comes later. If this is true then the low starting wages make sense and
the answer I have been seeking.
How about a 'traditional' education in IT via a college or
University? If those too fall into the same category as the trade
schools then I definitely wasted close to two years of time and sums of
money to be in no better of a position that I would have been had I
opted to go to a proprietary aka 'trade' school instead of a traditional
school to become a technician.
Am I correct in my assumption that a person with a Computer Science
degree is viewed like the other skilled trades I mentioned (nurse etc)
ie quoting " have a real education" and thus worth more? Or are they too
viewed like the certificate holders and low balled on pay for some time?
I think some are misinterpretting my question(s) which is it is a
given that regardless of a career it takes time to earn a good wage.
Even doctors and lawyers don't make big bucks the first year. But it
seems other careers and vocations do pay more for new hires and I think
you confirmed some of my suspicions as to why.
The other part of my question was why am I not seeing wages much
above $12 hour for someone with certification and experience. This maybe
unique to my area ie limited demand and an oversupply of people.
Although job searches nationwide seem to bear out this as an average
wage for a tech. So apparently this is what industry feels such a person
is worth.
One question no one has addressed yet is how does one get the needed
experience when due to the economy (ie lots of job seekers with
experience) will get hired before those without experience. Do
internships have any REAL value to employers? Seems like that is the
only avenue left to gain experience but if it is not crediable
experience then it is a not worth the effort.
I am now trying to determine what knowledge/experience etc will take
one above this level of pay. I don't want to waste time with wrong
choices. Constructive comments and suggestions are welcome.
Gary
Daniel Lawrence wrote:
> There is no simple answer to your question, but there are factors that
> play a role: 1) too many trade schools pumping out "certified" people
> who will work for nothing. 2) The poor economic conditions 3)
> Geography does play a role, in high tech sectors like Silicone Valley
> for example you get more than in the middle of no where 4) In my
> personal opinion because of the whole Y2K/Dot com bullshit companies
> are exacting revenge on the industry for the costs they incurred. 5)
> Another factor will be that those other skilled trades you mentioned
> have a real education as opposed to getting a certification in under a
> year then getting some experience and expecting to earn as much as a
> doctor or lawyer which is not going to happen.
> --
> Daniel Lawrence
> A+
>
> <wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message
> news:3E8831E4.618B3CD3@csonline.net... You know at one
> time I would have believed you regarding the that's all he
> will ever make from what I saying this is true in IT as
> well. That is the gist of what I am asking about. In my
> locale, I am NOT seeing better wages for those who have put
> their time in! When the highest wage is $10-12 per hour for
> a highly technical field that's pathetic and I am trying to
> determine why. Is it my geographic location? Or common
> throught the industry? Possibly it's all the quasi-
> 'certifications' that seem to available anywhere for a fee
> and the law of supply and demand has taken over ie to many
> and not enough jobs? That is what I am trying to ascertain
> and why the questions. I am a late mid lifer trying to
> change careers at age 52. As far as putting the time in, I
> don't have the luxury of a 20 year old if I am going to put
> 10 years in and make only what the local McDs assistant
> manager makes! I might was well do that now because I will
> be dollars ahead in a cost benefit analysis ie be making
> that much, much sooner at McDonalds and for a longer
> period!
> Oh and as far as someone paying you a ton of money without
> experience? Maybe you need to come out from behind that
> monitor and talk to others about what they make. Most other
> skilled occupations pay STARTING out a decent living wage in
> case you didn't know. I am trying to find out what this is
> NOT the case for IT. I am not expecting a 'ton' just fair
> compensation and a living wage-living defined as an ability
> to pay bills with the earnings. .Go ask a recent nurse
> graduate what she or he is making with NO
> experience!($15-30 per hour!) Same with a rad tech or
> ultrasound tech. Or any 2 year tech graduate of program
> related to engineering fields. For some reason I am not
> seeing a similar compensation for a new entry into the IT
> field for the knowledge achieved and why the questions. I am
> trying to find out why this is NOT the case with IT. The
> logic behind getting knowledge and training is to put you
> ahead of the curve in the rate of pay ie education and
> traing is a substitute for entry level experience. If a
> person entering IT without any formal training or
> certification is making the same as someone who has taken
> the time to do that then Something is wrong in this field
> big time and its apparent no one is asking why to correct
> it.
> I have no problem putting time in but if the compensation
> is not there it's not worth the effort is my point and
> reason for the questions. I also see a less than clearly
> delineated methodology for achieving success in the IT
> profession ie if a person wants to be an engineering tech or
> a nurse or whatever, what you have to do and know is clearly
> spelled out, I don't see that in the IT world. If this is
> error please show me where I can find such information and
> is part of my question so that I don't waste time or go in
> erroneous directions.
> I appreciate your replying but I don't need a lecture on
> work ethics, I am seeking hard factual information with
> respect to my question(s) and not pompous smug replies.
>
>
> Test Account wrote:
>
> > The difference is that guy holding the stop sign will ONLY
> > ever make $7.50
> > an hour! No one is going to pay you a ton of money
> > without experience in
> > any profession... If that was the case I would be doing
> > brain surgery on a
> > regular basis... Now go put your time in!
> >
> > <wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message
> > news:3E872D55.B504018@csonline.net...
> > > First, a big Thank You to all who took the time to
> > reply and answer
> > > my question above regarding wages for a newly minted A+
> > tech. I
> > > appreciate your candor but must admit my surprise at the
> > low entry wages
> > > quoted by everyone that replied.
> > > While I am quite aware of the fact the A+ is the
> > entry level
> > > certification, I must confess when I see a job for $7/hr
> > as a computer
> > > tech vs $7.50 hour for holding a flag for road
> > construction ( skill
> > > needed to do that??) I am having a hard time
> > understanding the
> > > 'justification' for low wages for an entry level
> > Computer Tech.
> > > I feel as though I have been misled. I am a later
> > mid life career
> > > changer and while I totally understand the A+ is entry
> > level and
> > > experience in this, like any field, is what matters,
> > these wages are
> > > pathetic imho. If someone is going to be paid $7.50 an
> > hour to merely
> > > hold a sign that says Stop on it- and to do what a
> > computer tech is
> > > capable of or required to do takes a bit more more
> > knowledge and then
> > > make less, something is totally out of kilter here.
> > > So I guess my next question is- Computer Support
> > Specialists are
> > > supposed to be one of the hot growth areas in terms of
> > employment in the
> > > next decade and why I opted to go this route for a new
> > career. Can
> > > someone explain what particular certifications are
> > needed and amount of
> > > and specific experience it will take to become a
> > CSSpecialist and earn
> > > the mean $34K that the Federal Governments own BOL
> > statistics quotes for
> > > a Computer Support Specialist? Would self employment as
> > one person
> > > mentioned be crediable experience?
> > > Again any and all insight and candor is really and
> > most appreciated.
> > > It seems like one might (is?) better off going into
> > something like
> > > Databases or programming to make a decent wage compared
> > to the technical
> > > side of computer maintenance or have I missed something
> > here? Not having
> > > the luxury of time that a 20 year old has, I need to
> > find a facet of IT
> > > that pays a living wage without investing 10+ years to
> > get there(be
> > > ready to almost retire by then!)! Thanks again ahead of
> > time for all
> > > your great thoughts and comments.
> > >
> > >
>
| |
| Daniel Lawrence 2003-03-31, 11:23 am |
| Gary,
I think you will find that those people who have a traditional education (University trained) along with a combination of certifications and experience or even without to a limited degree are not complaining about thier level of pay or ability to find work as much as the trade school graduates are.
The certification process has been corrupted by various groups to the point where to a large part they no longer have meaning. The trade schools are making impossible promises to candiates that the job market can not and will not match for the most part. If it really was as simple as doing a year program for a combination of certifications and then earn 40,000+ a year everyone would be doing it. Unfortunately as most trade school graduates (myself included) will admit it never works out this way because employers want not only the certifications but experience to back up what you claim you know.
The other problem with the certification process is the testing methodology used by test takers and the companies offering the exams. The test takers really only care about passing the exam and not learning the material, and this shows by the complaints I have heard from some people I know who have thier own businesses and use these people and complain of the lack of applied knowledge and abliity. The companies offering the exams in my opinion do not do enough to ensure that those people getting the certifications are inded knowledgeable. IMHO what should be involved in the certification process is a two step testing process a written part to ensure you know the theory and a lab part so you can demonstrate the ability to apply the theory you learned.I mean if this is how it is determined you can have a drivers licence (in Canada anyway) would it not make sense for a IT certification? It would also weed out the paper certification holders and increase the value for those people who can actually pass this two step process in holding a particular certification.
In terms of getting the experience required to earn a liveable wage, well this varies on background, location, and local job market so it is very hard to offer much in the way of an opinion.
--
Daniel Lawrence
A+
"Gary" <wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message news:3E8860E4.B3BD63EC@csonline.net...
Daniel
Thank you. That's the kind of discourse I am seeking and you answered some of my suspicions namely:
1. All the plethora of 'schools' pumping 'certified' people has diluted the supply of people so much there is no longer any uniqueness and value to the fact a person has applied themselves to earn certification and thus set themselves apart from the rest. Translation, only experience has any real value to an employer a certification is something of a 'bonus' an employer gets when selecting between canidates and a means to jusitfy hiring one person over another.
2. Unfortunately that is a given and those with experience will most likely be hired since they can hit the ground running. Not much can be done here at present other than accept any job that is offered.
3. Geography was one I feared and it seems like those areas in any kind of growth will be offering more- wanted someone else to confirm that belief.
4. Interesting- that maybe also why they are exporting jobs such as help desk and programming overseas now.
5. If I am interpretting you correctly what you are saying is unlike a traditional college program most of the IT certifications are concerned primarily with passing the 'test' vs having any real knowledge? Not putting down those who do have the knowledge, but it seems that the title (aka certificate) comes first then the knowledge comes later. If this is true then the low starting wages make sense and the answer I have been seeking.
How about a 'traditional' education in IT via a college or University? If those too fall into the same category as the trade schools then I definitely wasted close to two years of time and sums of money to be in no better of a position that I would have been had I opted to go to a proprietary aka 'trade' school instead of a traditional school to become a technician.
Am I correct in my assumption that a person with a Computer Science degree is viewed like the other skilled trades I mentioned (nurse etc) ie quoting " have a real education" and thus worth more? Or are they too viewed like the certificate holders and low balled on pay for some time?
I think some are misinterpretting my question(s) which is it is a given that regardless of a career it takes time to earn a good wage. Even doctors and lawyers don't make big bucks the first year. But it seems other careers and vocations do pay more for new hires and I think you confirmed some of my suspicions as to why.
The other part of my question was why am I not seeing wages much above $12 hour for someone with certification and experience. This maybe unique to my area ie limited demand and an oversupply of people. Although job searches nationwide seem to bear out this as an average wage for a tech. So apparently this is what industry feels such a person is worth.
One question no one has addressed yet is how does one get the needed experience when due to the economy (ie lots of job seekers with experience) will get hired before those without experience. Do internships have any REAL value to employers? Seems like that is the only avenue left to gain experience but if it is not crediable experience then it is a not worth the effort.
I am now trying to determine what knowledge/experience etc will take one above this level of pay. I don't want to waste time with wrong choices. Constructive comments and suggestions are welcome.
Gary
Daniel Lawrence wrote:
There is no simple answer to your question, but there are factors that play a role: 1) too many trade schools pumping out "certified" people who will work for nothing. 2) The poor economic conditions 3) Geography does play a role, in high tech sectors like Silicone Valley for example you get more than in the middle of no where 4) In my personal opinion because of the whole Y2K/Dot com bullshit companies are exacting revenge on the industry for the costs they incurred. 5) Another factor will be that those other skilled trades you mentioned have a real education as opposed to getting a certification in under a year then getting some experience and expecting to earn as much as a doctor or lawyer which is not going to happen.
--
Daniel Lawrence
A+
<wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message news:3E8831E4.618B3CD3@csonline.net... You know at one time I would have believed you regarding the that's all he will ever make from what I saying this is true in IT as well. That is the gist of what I am asking about. In my locale, I am NOT seeing better wages for those who have put their time in! When the highest wage is $10-12 per hour for a highly technical field that's pathetic and I am trying to determine why. Is it my geographic location? Or common throught the industry? Possibly it's all the quasi- 'certifications' that seem to available anywhere for a fee and the law of supply and demand has taken over ie to many and not enough jobs? That is what I am trying to ascertain and why the questions. I am a late mid lifer trying to change careers at age 52. As far as putting the time in, I don't have the luxury of a 20 year old if I am going to put 10 years in and make only what the local McDs assistant manager makes! I might was well do that now because I will be dollars ahead in a cost benefit analysis ie be making that much, much sooner at McDonalds and for a longer period!
Oh and as far as someone paying you a ton of money without experience? Maybe you need to come out from behind that monitor and talk to others about what they make. Most other skilled occupations pay STARTING out a decent living wage in case you didn't know. I am trying to find out what this is NOT the case for IT. I am not expecting a 'ton' just fair compensation and a living wage-living defined as an ability to pay bills with the earnings. .Go ask a recent nurse graduate what she or he is making with NO experience!($15-30 per hour!) Same with a rad tech or ultrasound tech. Or any 2 year tech graduate of program related to engineering fields. For some reason I am not seeing a similar compensation for a new entry into the IT field for the knowledge achieved and why the questions. I am trying to find out why this is NOT the case with IT. The logic behind getting knowledge and training is to put you ahead of the curve in the rate of pay ie education and traing is a substitute for entry level experience. If a person entering IT without any formal training or certification is making the same as someone who has taken the time to do that then Something is wrong in this field big time and its apparent no one is asking why to correct it.
I have no problem putting time in but if the compensation is not there it's not worth the effort is my point and reason for the questions. I also see a less than clearly delineated methodology for achieving success in the IT profession ie if a person wants to be an engineering tech or a nurse or whatever, what you have to do and know is clearly spelled out, I don't see that in the IT world. If this is error please show me where I can find such information and is part of my question so that I don't waste time or go in erroneous directions.
I appreciate your replying but I don't need a lecture on work ethics, I am seeking hard factual information with respect to my question(s) and not pompous smug replies.
Test Account wrote:
The difference is that guy holding the stop sign will ONLY ever make $7.50
an hour! No one is going to pay you a ton of money without experience in
any profession... If that was the case I would be doing brain surgery on a
regular basis... Now go put your time in!
<wbekfo@csonline.net> wrote in message news:3E872D55.B504018@csonline.net...
> First, a big Thank You to all who took the time to reply and answer
> my question above regarding wages for a newly minted A+ tech. I
> appreciate your candor but must admit my surprise at the low entry wages
> quoted by everyone that replied.
> While I am quite aware of the fact the A+ is the entry level
> certification, I must confess when I see a job for $7/hr as a computer
> tech vs $7.50 hour for holding a flag for road construction ( skill
> needed to do that??) I am having a hard time understanding the
> 'justification' for low wages for an entry level Computer Tech.
> I feel as though I have been misled. I am a later mid life career
> changer and while I totally understand the A+ is entry level and
> experience in this, like any field, is what matters, these wages are
> pathetic imho. If someone is going to be paid $7.50 an hour to merely
> hold a sign that says Stop on it- and to do what a computer tech is
> capable of or required to do takes a bit more more knowledge and then
> make less, something is totally out of kilter here.
> So I guess my next question is- Computer Support Specialists are
> supposed to be one of the hot growth areas in terms of employment in the
> next decade and why I opted to go this route for a new career. Can
> someone explain what particular certifications are needed and amount of
> and specific experience it will take to become a CSSpecialist and earn
> the mean $34K that the Federal Governments own BOL statistics quotes for
> a Computer Support Specialist? Would self employment as one person
> mentioned be crediable experience?
> Again any and all insight and candor is really and most appreciated.
> It seems like one might (is?) better off going into something like
> Databases or programming to make a decent wage compared to the technical
> side of computer maintenance or have I missed something here? Not having
> the luxury of time that a 20 year old has, I need to find a facet of IT
> that pays a living wage without investing 10+ years to get there(be
> ready to almost retire by then!)! Thanks again ahead of time for all
> your great thoughts and comments.
>
>
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