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| tommylee 2003-08-13, 11:24 am |
|
I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things can
be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
cases like that ?
--
Posted via http://dbforums.com
| |
| Kline Sphere 2003-08-13, 11:24 am |
| >I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things can
>be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
>programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
>cases like that ?
This is nothing like as bad as it was in the early 90's when just
about all business sectors were affected.
In 1991 we had over 1,000 applications for one graduate position,
which was only advertised within the state university system.
After a company 'down sized', a friend of mine was out of work for 18
months for mid 1990. I remember him telling me he applied for one
position in New York (hundreds of miles from where he lived). They
replied back saying they had over 4,000 applications. He was a top
notch software engineer who made the mistake of getting into
management five years before.
BTW, I've not seen a 'programmer' role being advertised for more than
ten years. If all you can do is 'program' then I agree things will be
tough for you.
Good luck.
| |
|
| Yes, I know of good people that were unemployed for a year or more. We
recently hired one. I'm working with this guy now and he's good. And no,
he's not just a "coder". He does the full life-cycle from analysis to
implementation.
I honestly don't know what to tell you. I'd say that here in Detroit things
are as bad as they've ever been. And I've been in the field since 1979.
First, don't take it personally. It's not just you. Second, please don't
give up. I realize it's easy to say that but once you give up, it's certain
you won't get a job. Third, don't restrict yourself to just "programmer"
jobs. Look at any job that's related to your past experience and make your
best pitch to get hired. At this point, I think it's better to be working in
a non-developer job than waiting for IT to recover. If things do get better
you can adjust accordingly.
Best of Luck!
"tommylee" <member32008@dbforums.com> wrote in message
news:3234005.1060783280@dbforums.com...
>
> I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things can
> be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
> programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
> cases like that ?
>
> --
> Posted via http://dbforums.com
| |
| John S 2003-08-14, 5:23 am |
| Considered a change of career to something more suitable?
"tommylee" <member32008@dbforums.com> wrote in message
news:3234005.1060783280@dbforums.com...
>
> I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things can
> be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
> programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
> cases like that ?
>
> --
> Posted via http://dbforums.com
| |
| msnews.microsoft.com 2003-08-14, 10:24 am |
| If this sounds condescending at all, I apologize, as that is not the intent.
In every field, there is always a core group that have skills above everyone
else who remain employed. At the company I work for, I enjoy a salary above
most of the people in IT, and everyone in my group. Why? Skills are higher.
Also, when you truly know more, you have more confidence in your ability.
You also tend to hold jobs when others get layed off (friendly word for
fired, just like downsizing is a friendly word for out of work).
I know this does not help your current situation, but you have to look
forward to what you need to do to reduce the risk in the future. Just like
you create risk documents for projects, you should have a risk assessment
for your job and career. To mitigate being unemployed, increase skills
constantly. As a contengency, brainstorm for backups and keep your eyes
peeled for better opportunities and side jobs. When you are working, it is
easier to get a job.
I spent a few weeks unemployed last year (company went out of business
during the slowest part of the year). A friend of mine spent almost 6 months
without a job. The difference? He rarely keeps ahead of the curve, so he was
less desirable when the pool got crowded. You have to make a plan to become
more desirable.
Remember this, the average IT person learns only enough to survive. If the
market changes (new products become popular, et al), they struggle to get
the edge back. The winners in the field stay ahead. Sure, you get burned by
some bleeding edge technology that is never adopted, but you also are on the
leading edge when something comes through. While you are unemployed, look
for betas for new technologies that you think might pop. SQL Server Yukon
should beta this fall, if you are DB oriented, and Whidbey (.NET 2.0) should
be out in a first beta by the end of the year. Hopefully, you will be
employed prior to that, but I would still look for these opportunities.
If Yukon and Whidbey really pop, wouldn't you much rather be one of the few
who knows it (translation: money$$$) than one struggling to catch up?
--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
Author: ADO.NET and XML: ASP.NET on the Edge
******************************
******************************
**********
Think outside the box!
******************************
******************************
**********
"tommylee" <member32008@dbforums.com> wrote in message
news:3234005.1060783280@dbforums.com...
>
> I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things can
> be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
> programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
> cases like that ?
>
> --
> Posted via http://dbforums.com
| |
| tommylee 2003-08-14, 11:24 am |
|
Thanks for all the great advices.
I live in Texas, and the IT job market in the city that I live in is
dead, totally dead. I can't event get an interview in the past 4
months. Going to an interview in another city on my own expense is also
a problem.
--
Posted via http://dbforums.com
| |
|
| May I ask what city of Texas?
I'd receive some jobs opportunities in Phoenix. Not that
far from Texas, but you'll certainly need to relocate.
Also, Sharepoint and CMS (Content...) are pretty hot now,
try to learn those technologies,. They are not that
difficult to learn if you're already an ASP, ASP.NET guy.
You can even ask a company that may need those solutions
and work for free so you can put it on your resume as
professional experience. Sound abit outrageous and hard on
your ego but it beat been at home.
Bye
>-----Original Message-----
>
>Thanks for all the great advices.
>I live in Texas, and the IT job market in the city that I
live in is
>dead, totally dead. I can't event get an interview in the
past 4
>months. Going to an interview in another city on my own
expense is also
>a problem.
>
>--
>Posted via http://dbforums.com
>.
>
| |
| tommylee 2003-08-14, 5:24 pm |
|
I live in Houston, Texas. Where a lot of big companies just put a bunch
of super-programmers on the street (you probably have heard about those
news). I don't know if you noticed this, but most of the ads says
"prefer LOCAL candidates".
--
Posted via http://dbforums.com
| |
| Kline Sphere 2003-08-14, 6:23 pm |
| I expect there will be a few more unemployed after the latest round of
network breaches due to the Lovsan virus. Anyone from the Federal
Reserve Bank of Atlanta out there?
| |
|
| <<I don't know if you noticed this, but most of the ads
says "prefer LOCAL candidates".>>
Yeap, of course I noticed , that's why to somewhat level
the playing field I offer to relocate @ my expense.
But I 'm very aware that is not as easy for other as for
me, (wife dont work & want to move, no kids,live in a
small apt...)
>-----Original Message-----
>
>I live in Houston, Texas. Where a lot of big companies
just put a bunch
>of super-programmers on the street (you probably have
heard about those
>news). I don't know if you noticed this, but most of the
ads says
>"prefer LOCAL candidates".
>
>--
>Posted via http://dbforums.com
>.
>
| |
| MarkSJ 2003-08-20, 12:25 pm |
| "msnews.microsoft.com" <NoSpamMgbworld@comcast.netNoSpmPlz> wrote in message
news:%23Ls$xbmYDHA.2204@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> If this sounds condescending at all, I apologize, as that is not the
intent.
> In every field, there is always a core group that have skills above
everyone
> else who remain employed. At the company I work for, I enjoy a salary
above
> most of the people in IT, and everyone in my group. Why? Skills are
higher.
> Also, when you truly know more, you have more confidence in your ability.
> You also tend to hold jobs when others get layed off (friendly word for
> fired, just like downsizing is a friendly word for out of work).
>
I certainly agree with you, Gregory, about staying ahead of the curve. In
our line of work, possibly more than any other, it is the only way to
guarantee a future.
However, I have to tell the flipside, as it just happened to me.
I just got laid off from a company I worked at for 2.5 years. I was
initially hired because of my higher skill level, and for the past 2.25
years was the only Lead Software Engineer the company had, for a team of 12
developers. I was the highest-paid developer, but also had the highest
skill level (and ambition). I was constantly pushing the other developers
to learn more, to push their development to higher standards. I pushed the
company to bring newer technology in, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
Several months ago, the company hired some new developers on visa from
India. These were junior level developers at best, had no concept of what a
deadline was, and took a great deal of my time and the time of other
developers to train. These new developers were also paid at a much lower
scale than the existing developers. I was extremely surprised when two of
these junior developers from India were moved up to Lead positions about 4
months ago; it made no sense to me or to the other developers.
Well, surprise, surprise, half the development team (including me) were laid
off one morning, but none of the new-hires were. The company used the
excuse that it was downsizing the development team, and our positions had
been eliminated. Somehow the positions of the more experienced, higher paid
developers were eliminated, but the less experienced, less tenured, lower
paid ones in the same positions were kept. We had to sign paperwork stating
that we wouldn't sue the company if we wanted to get any type of termination
package.
I realize that the company I worked for is not typical, but I do believe
there are a surprising number of companies that use despicable and unethical
tactics like that for the shortsighted monetary gain.
To me it is totally disgusting that companies will do things like that. It
really makes me wish I was in a different profession. I am still here,
working hard to keep on the cutting edge, studying every single day, 7 days
per week, to learn the "latest & greatest" technology. Sometimes I wonder
what for? There is practically no job satisfaction unless you really get in
with a good company. Companies will lie in interviews much more than the
interviewees are likely to lie, so it is almost impossible to know in an
interview what it will be like to work for.
</rant>
Mark.
MCSD, MCAD, MCP+I
| |
|
| Hello, call INS! What that company did is explicitly illegal under
H1B Visa rules. Companies MUST advertise positions and MUST hire
qualified Americans. If they hire H1B Visa contractors, they MUST pay
them the scale rate they pay other developers.
H1B Visa contracts MAY NOT be promoted into a position unless those
positions are advertised, and the same rules are followed as just
stated. Thus, YOU would have been able to apply for the same job, and
since you already have the job, they cannot lay you off and replace
you with an H1B Visa contractor.
You should see a vicious lawyer immediately. Sue the hell out of that
company and teach them a lesson.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:53:35 -0600, "MarkSJ"
< Newsgroup_email@weednoreplywee
d.com> wrote:
>"msnews.microsoft.com" <NoSpamMgbworld@comcast.netNoSpmPlz> wrote in message
>news:%23Ls$xbmYDHA.2204@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> If this sounds condescending at all, I apologize, as that is not the
>intent.
>> In every field, there is always a core group that have skills above
>everyone
>> else who remain employed. At the company I work for, I enjoy a salary
>above
>> most of the people in IT, and everyone in my group. Why? Skills are
>higher.
>> Also, when you truly know more, you have more confidence in your ability.
>> You also tend to hold jobs when others get layed off (friendly word for
>> fired, just like downsizing is a friendly word for out of work).
>>
>
>I certainly agree with you, Gregory, about staying ahead of the curve. In
>our line of work, possibly more than any other, it is the only way to
>guarantee a future.
>
>However, I have to tell the flipside, as it just happened to me.
>I just got laid off from a company I worked at for 2.5 years. I was
>initially hired because of my higher skill level, and for the past 2.25
>years was the only Lead Software Engineer the company had, for a team of 12
>developers. I was the highest-paid developer, but also had the highest
>skill level (and ambition). I was constantly pushing the other developers
>to learn more, to push their development to higher standards. I pushed the
>company to bring newer technology in, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
>Several months ago, the company hired some new developers on visa from
>India. These were junior level developers at best, had no concept of what a
>deadline was, and took a great deal of my time and the time of other
>developers to train. These new developers were also paid at a much lower
>scale than the existing developers. I was extremely surprised when two of
>these junior developers from India were moved up to Lead positions about 4
>months ago; it made no sense to me or to the other developers.
>Well, surprise, surprise, half the development team (including me) were laid
>off one morning, but none of the new-hires were. The company used the
>excuse that it was downsizing the development team, and our positions had
>been eliminated. Somehow the positions of the more experienced, higher paid
>developers were eliminated, but the less experienced, less tenured, lower
>paid ones in the same positions were kept. We had to sign paperwork stating
>that we wouldn't sue the company if we wanted to get any type of termination
>package.
>
>I realize that the company I worked for is not typical, but I do believe
>there are a surprising number of companies that use despicable and unethical
>tactics like that for the shortsighted monetary gain.
>
>To me it is totally disgusting that companies will do things like that. It
>really makes me wish I was in a different profession. I am still here,
>working hard to keep on the cutting edge, studying every single day, 7 days
>per week, to learn the "latest & greatest" technology. Sometimes I wonder
>what for? There is practically no job satisfaction unless you really get in
>with a good company. Companies will lie in interviews much more than the
>interviewees are likely to lie, so it is almost impossible to know in an
>interview what it will be like to work for.
>
></rant>
>Mark.
>MCSD, MCAD, MCP+I
>
| |
|
| Oh, as far as that agreement not to sue them in order to get
severance, that is obvious coercion and they may get criminal charges
against them for that too. I wouldn't sweat that agreement one bit.
Damn, I wish I was your attorney. That case is too easy.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:53:35 -0600, "MarkSJ"
< Newsgroup_email@weednoreplywee
d.com> wrote:
>"msnews.microsoft.com" <NoSpamMgbworld@comcast.netNoSpmPlz> wrote in message
>news:%23Ls$xbmYDHA.2204@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> If this sounds condescending at all, I apologize, as that is not the
>intent.
>> In every field, there is always a core group that have skills above
>everyone
>> else who remain employed. At the company I work for, I enjoy a salary
>above
>> most of the people in IT, and everyone in my group. Why? Skills are
>higher.
>> Also, when you truly know more, you have more confidence in your ability.
>> You also tend to hold jobs when others get layed off (friendly word for
>> fired, just like downsizing is a friendly word for out of work).
>>
>
>I certainly agree with you, Gregory, about staying ahead of the curve. In
>our line of work, possibly more than any other, it is the only way to
>guarantee a future.
>
>However, I have to tell the flipside, as it just happened to me.
>I just got laid off from a company I worked at for 2.5 years. I was
>initially hired because of my higher skill level, and for the past 2.25
>years was the only Lead Software Engineer the company had, for a team of 12
>developers. I was the highest-paid developer, but also had the highest
>skill level (and ambition). I was constantly pushing the other developers
>to learn more, to push their development to higher standards. I pushed the
>company to bring newer technology in, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
>Several months ago, the company hired some new developers on visa from
>India. These were junior level developers at best, had no concept of what a
>deadline was, and took a great deal of my time and the time of other
>developers to train. These new developers were also paid at a much lower
>scale than the existing developers. I was extremely surprised when two of
>these junior developers from India were moved up to Lead positions about 4
>months ago; it made no sense to me or to the other developers.
>Well, surprise, surprise, half the development team (including me) were laid
>off one morning, but none of the new-hires were. The company used the
>excuse that it was downsizing the development team, and our positions had
>been eliminated. Somehow the positions of the more experienced, higher paid
>developers were eliminated, but the less experienced, less tenured, lower
>paid ones in the same positions were kept. We had to sign paperwork stating
>that we wouldn't sue the company if we wanted to get any type of termination
>package.
>
>I realize that the company I worked for is not typical, but I do believe
>there are a surprising number of companies that use despicable and unethical
>tactics like that for the shortsighted monetary gain.
>
>To me it is totally disgusting that companies will do things like that. It
>really makes me wish I was in a different profession. I am still here,
>working hard to keep on the cutting edge, studying every single day, 7 days
>per week, to learn the "latest & greatest" technology. Sometimes I wonder
>what for? There is practically no job satisfaction unless you really get in
>with a good company. Companies will lie in interviews much more than the
>interviewees are likely to lie, so it is almost impossible to know in an
>interview what it will be like to work for.
>
></rant>
>Mark.
>MCSD, MCAD, MCP+I
>
| |
| h1bguy 2003-09-07, 12:25 am |
|
Yeah I am on H1B and I completely agree with you about suing the XXX off
of the company.
But do rtemember not all H!B are like that . I will speak for a few
people I know and myself, we hate when something like this happens as
much as you guys, we see guys coming here with only qualification being
they are cheap labour.
They dont know nothing about software life cycle, vaguely seem to
know few design patterns but are quite effiecient in cutting and
pasting the code.
So there are two things you should do:
1. Never be too secure and over confident about your job/importance in
the company.
2. Being good has nothing to do with being able to hold your job, as
long the product works, managing monkeys think saving some dollars
here and there justifies everything.
So do your best to report an incident like this, and more so when you
feel you can prove it as well.
But ultimately it boils down to the managers who will and are more often
then not not on H1B and not Indians either, I see a lot of H1B bashing
going on every where that we are all evil :-) and "that your job blongs
to us" is our motto but I am pretty sure banning the visa won't solve a
thing, it would ultimately make most of the development being sent
offshores as well.
Belive it or not developers are paid a lot of money, more then most of
other professions , dot com boon even inflated that so now is the time
to realize that lower salary is a greatoption then no salary at all.
Best of all to all you citizens and Green cards holders in finding your
job from a humble H1B guy.
ps : I feel right now it would be much much better to start your own
company which provides services, like maybe in wireless or data
management , its not very expensive to set one and then you can
while waiting for the job do some products for your company and
add them to your resume as well.
What I mean is getting a website and maybe an Incorporated deal too?
coders for rent is good place for some part time job as well..
--
Posted via http://dbforums.com
| |
| 123qwe 2003-09-07, 3:25 pm |
|
Originally posted by tommylee
> I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things
> can be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
> programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
> cases like that ?
Hello everybody,
I noticed that on many forums IT people form US complain about weak
economy and job market. I have few observations:
1. Your unemplyment rate is only 6,9 % (in my country it is 20%)
2. When I search Monster.com or other boards there are hunderds of new
positions each day.
Additionally many people talk about "moving to IT field" or "moving out
form IT field". How is it posible? I am 24 years old, but I am
certainly sure that it takes years to become real IT Pro. I have been
using computers since 1990, I have 6 years of commerical experience,
have studied 5 years to achieve my Computer Science degree on
University, have spent months learning, working, preparing to MS exams
etc. and I am still sure that there is much more to learn for me. And
then I read some of those folks talking about moving to IT (in let say
6 months). Question: What kind of specialists are they? In my opinion
they are not at all.
You complain about your salaries? Hey I earn about 15 000 $ annually.
(and prices in my country are high, examples: 1 gallon of petrol ~ 3,6
$, DSL per month 50 $, bread 0,5 $, home (170 square meteres, average
standard, according to your standards it would be slums ))) 200 000 $
I have a friend of my who was working as h1b guy in Iowa for about a
year during 2000. He said that many people were moving to IT without any
qualifications, they were just taking some 2 weeks courses and thought
that they are Software Engineers. All this just to make some money
during prosperity. Probably they have been now reduced due to recession,
but the point is they should never be hired.
If somebody can develop some VB Forms using MS RAD tools(because he took
some funny 2 weeks long course) it is not enough to be called Software
Engineer. You have to now math, algorithms like Floyds, Dijkstra,
and real huge amount of theoretical knowledge.You have to know something
from DB theory (I mean Math basis?). If you thing you are good because
you can develop asp.net page you are wrong. And what about business
reltions?Are you interested how IT fits to business?
Hey, believe me, comparing to eastern Europe where I am living, you all
guys live in heaven. Despite 20% unemplyment rate in my country every
high-tech well skilled person have a job. I just can not understand and
believe that in US you can not find a job (only 6,9% UR!!). You are
saying you have been laid-off? So what? It is not Japan ten years ago
where You were hired till death.
I bet if you can not find a job it is something wrong with you. Maybe
you are not such good as you thing or maybe there is some other reason.
Or maybe you are not searching for it hard enough.
When I was changing job, I have sent about 1500 offers in two weeks. Now
I am preparing to study MBA on University and to take some Project
Management courses along with completing MCSD.NET. Now it is time for
people who are self confident, extremely well educated (IT Pros with
Financial and Business background) and who are "fighters".
If somebody talk about end of IT this remainds me some story about
scientists from the begining of XX century who were proclaiming that it
is end of science because everything has been already invented))
And really I think there is a bright future for real IT People. This is
industry will be witnessing unbelieveable growth (and you have a good
government and president who cut taxes, I wish we would have such
government)
I would like to apologise if I have offended someone.
Best Regards,
Simon
BS CS
MCP, MCAD
from Poland
--
Posted via http://dbforums.com
| |
| Glenn D. Crosse 2003-09-07, 5:25 pm |
| Well stated.
In addition, one might also consider being a domain specialist on top of
being an expert software engineer to further increase one's value.
Glenn
"123qwe" <member38457@dbforums.com> wrote in message
news:3340731.1062960468@dbforums.com...
>
> Originally posted by tommylee
>
> > I have been out of the job for 5 months now. I can't believe things
> > can be this bad. I wonder is it posible that a good and experience
> > programmer be unemployed more than a year ? Have you seen or know any
> > cases like that ?
>
>
>
> Hello everybody,
>
>
>
> I noticed that on many forums IT people form US complain about weak
> economy and job market. I have few observations:
>
>
>
> 1. Your unemplyment rate is only 6,9 % (in my country it is 20%)
>
> 2. When I search Monster.com or other boards there are hunderds of new
> positions each day.
>
>
>
> Additionally many people talk about "moving to IT field" or "moving out
> form IT field". How is it posible? I am 24 years old, but I am
> certainly sure that it takes years to become real IT Pro. I have been
> using computers since 1990, I have 6 years of commerical experience,
> have studied 5 years to achieve my Computer Science degree on
> University, have spent months learning, working, preparing to MS exams
> etc. and I am still sure that there is much more to learn for me. And
> then I read some of those folks talking about moving to IT (in let say
> 6 months). Question: What kind of specialists are they? In my opinion
> they are not at all.
>
>
>
> You complain about your salaries? Hey I earn about 15 000 $ annually.
> (and prices in my country are high, examples: 1 gallon of petrol ~ 3,6
> $, DSL per month 50 $, bread 0,5 $, home (170 square meteres, average
> standard, according to your standards it would be slums))) 200 000 $
>
>
>
> I have a friend of my who was working as h1b guy in Iowa for about a
> year during 2000. He said that many people were moving to IT without any
> qualifications, they were just taking some 2 weeks courses and thought
> that they are Software Engineers. All this just to make some money
> during prosperity. Probably they have been now reduced due to recession,
> but the point is they should never be hired.
>
> If somebody can develop some VB Forms using MS RAD tools(because he took
> some funny 2 weeks long course) it is not enough to be called Software
> Engineer. You have to now math, algorithms like Floyds, Dijkstra,
>
> and real huge amount of theoretical knowledge.You have to know something
> from DB theory (I mean Math basis?). If you thing you are good because
> you can develop asp.net page you are wrong. And what about business
> reltions?Are you interested how IT fits to business?
>
>
>
> Hey, believe me, comparing to eastern Europe where I am living, you all
> guys live in heaven. Despite 20% unemplyment rate in my country every
> high-tech well skilled person have a job. I just can not understand and
> believe that in US you can not find a job (only 6,9% UR!!). You are
> saying you have been laid-off? So what? It is not Japan ten years ago
> where You were hired till death.
>
>
>
> I bet if you can not find a job it is something wrong with you. Maybe
> you are not such good as you thing or maybe there is some other reason.
> Or maybe you are not searching for it hard enough.
>
>
>
> When I was changing job, I have sent about 1500 offers in two weeks. Now
> I am preparing to study MBA on University and to take some Project
> Management courses along with completing MCSD.NET. Now it is time for
> people who are self confident, extremely well educated (IT Pros with
> Financial and Business background) and who are "fighters".
>
>
>
> If somebody talk about end of IT this remainds me some story about
> scientists from the begining of XX century who were proclaiming that it
> is end of science because everything has been already invented))
>
> And really I think there is a bright future for real IT People. This is
> industry will be witnessing unbelieveable growth (and you have a good
> government and president who cut taxes, I wish we would have such
> government)
>
>
>
> I would like to apologise if I have offended someone.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
> BS CS
>
> MCP, MCAD
>
>
>
> from Poland
>
>
> --
> Posted via http://dbforums.com
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