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Home > Archive > microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd > June 2003 > To Be or Not to be .Net Certified?
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To Be or Not to be .Net Certified?
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| Hello,
I am in a bind. I have some knowledge of .Net but not
enough to be convinced in the market. I could take the
plunge into being .Net Certified but nothing in the market
leads me to think I should. Colleges, recruiters and some
businesses don't allow guarantees for job placement.
Can anyone lead me to businesses that absolutely places
MCSD people on the job right away? I really appreciate
your input.
Thank you,
EDB
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| Kline Sphere 2003-06-18, 4:23 pm |
| >Can anyone lead me to businesses that absolutely places
>MCSD people on the job right away?
No such place.
No experience, no Job. No experience without a job. Sorry, its a catch
twenty-two situation, but that's the way it is.
BTW, No microsoft certification will help you on it's own, so what
else do you have to offer?
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| > No experience, no Job. No experience without a job. Sorry, its a catch
> twenty-two situation, but that's the way it is.
It doesn't have to be a "catch twenty-two". You can always do work
experience. Some recruitement agencies will find you jobs that both pay you
and give you experience. All the same, Kline is right about "no experience,
no job".
Regards,
JAC.
"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:daj1fvk867ab7bhgi4cv27cik
5fmofnp3j@4ax.com...
> >Can anyone lead me to businesses that absolutely places
> >MCSD people on the job right away?
>
> No such place.
>
> No experience, no Job. No experience without a job. Sorry, its a catch
> twenty-two situation, but that's the way it is.
>
> BTW, No microsoft certification will help you on it's own, so what
> else do you have to offer?
| |
| Kline Sphere 2003-06-19, 5:23 am |
| >You can always do work
>experience.
Oh ya, right, I can just see my Employers taking on people for 'work
experience'. In an environment where the simplest rounding error can
cost millions I don't think so. Hence why they don't even take grads
on any more - not cost effective.
| |
| Vernon 2003-06-19, 4:23 pm |
| Are you saying that young graduates from college
without experience will not get a job.
I think people with litte or no experience should
create experience for themselves if they don't have
any. I developed a program for a non-profit organisation
and even got paid for it (about US$800)
>-----Original Message-----
>> No experience, no Job. No experience without a job.
Sorry, its a catch
>> twenty-two situation, but that's the way it is.
>
>It doesn't have to be a "catch twenty-two". You can
always do work
>experience. Some recruitement agencies will find you jobs
that both pay you
>and give you experience. All the same, Kline is right
about "no experience,
>no job".
>
>Regards,
>JAC.
>
>"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
> news:daj1fvk867ab7bhgi4cv27cik
5fmofnp3j@4ax.com...
>> >Can anyone lead me to businesses that absolutely places
>> >MCSD people on the job right away?
>>
>> No such place.
>>
>> No experience, no Job. No experience without a job.
Sorry, its a catch
>> twenty-two situation, but that's the way it is.
>>
>> BTW, No microsoft certification will help you on it's
own, so what
>> else do you have to offer?
>
>
>.
>
| |
| Kline Sphere 2003-06-19, 5:23 pm |
| >Are you saying that young graduates from college
>without experience will not get a job.
No, only that it is much harder these days.
Why would any company want to spend (or waste) on training someone
only for that person to leave before that training has paid off.
>I think people with litte or no experience should
>create experience for themselves if they don't have
>any.
How would you sell that to a prospective employer? Again, the choice
between experience and no (or little) experience.
A company would hire people who will be beneficial to that company,
which boils down to that person making money for that company.
>I developed a program for a non-profit organisation
>and even got paid for it (about US$800)
A good start. Now one would need to 'sell' what one did to prospective
employers, making it sound that the project was professional and
successful.
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| Nay Myo Aung 2003-06-21, 7:23 am |
| >
> A company would hire people who will be beneficial to that company,
> which boils down to that person making money for that company.
>
IMO that is the short term benifit. For the longer term, companies must
"adopt" new graduates.
--
Nay Myo Aung
MCP MCSD MCDBA & MCT
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| Kline Sphere 2003-06-21, 8:23 am |
| >> A company would hire people who will be beneficial to that company,
>> which boils down to that person making money for that company.
>>
>
>IMO that is the short term benifit. For the longer term, companies must
>"adopt" new graduates.
Not really, it's based on the dollar cost. It costs a heck of a lot of
money to train a software engineer (or any IT professional). While
they are being trained there is a financial burden incurred by the
company. Hence why it is more efficient and cheaper in the short (and
long) term to employ experienced people.
It would be less of a financial problem if the 'trainee' were to stay
at the company for period of time, so as to allow the company to
recover the investment placed in the trainee. This is seldom the case,
as they in turn leave the company (for various reasons).
Although there is still a shortage of skilled professionals in IT, the
'job market' is saturated with incompetent baffons. Unfortunately it
is these people who will be hired before raw grads.
| |
| Gary Krone 2003-06-23, 12:23 pm |
|
"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:lll8fvkmlif8k76j9r7dbhti0
ipb5lcvq7@4ax.com... [colo
r=darkred]
> >> A company would hire people who will be beneficial to that company,
> >> which boils down to that person making money for that company.
> >>
> >
> >IMO that is the short term benifit. For the longer term, companies must
> >"adopt" new graduates.
>
> Not really, it's based on the dollar cost. It costs a heck of a lot of
> money to train a software engineer (or any IT professional). While
> they are being trained there is a financial burden incurred by the
> company. Hence why it is more efficient and cheaper in the short (and
> long) term to employ experienced people.
>[/color]
Especially in today's job market where experienced IT professionals are
taking pay cuts just to be employed after long periods on the waiting list.
> It would be less of a financial problem if the 'trainee' were to stay
> at the company for period of time, so as to allow the company to
> recover the investment placed in the trainee. This is seldom the case,
> as they in turn leave the company (for various reasons).
Sounds like the company does not do a good job retaining employees.
>
> Although there is still a shortage of skilled professionals in IT, the
> 'job market' is saturated with incompetent baffons. Unfortunately it
> is these people who will be hired before raw grads.
Shortage??? I was at an IT open house where ther were 70 jobs available.
Conservative estimates were that over 15,000 people showed up for those
jobs.
My favorite quote from that open house was "Just shows how they industry is
these days when over 10,000 people are trying to get a handful of jobs at a
bankrupt airline."
Out of work 6 months and counting,
Gary Krone
gkrone@wi.rr.com
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| Kline Sphere 2003-06-23, 1:23 pm |
| >Shortage??? I was at an IT open house where ther were 70 jobs available.
>Conservative estimates were that over 15,000 people showed up for those
>jobs.
There is still a shortage of skilled professional software engineers.
People who actually understand the nature of software and how software
can be developed in order to solve business problems, are in short
supply. If this were not the case, all software projects would be
completed on time, to customer requirements and to budget nine times
out of ten, rather than two times out of ten as is the case. The
reason why so many software projects fail is because there are so many
unskilled people, at all levels, involved in software development
projects.
| |
| Kline Sphere 2003-06-23, 1:23 pm |
| >Out of work 6 months and counting,
All things work out for you.
| |
| Gary Krone 2003-06-23, 3:23 pm |
|
"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:dmdefv8egt8ffuairmqekflp1
cqct4rfs9@4ax.com...
> >Shortage??? I was at an IT open house where ther were 70 jobs available.
> >Conservative estimates were that over 15,000 people showed up for those
> >jobs.
>
> There is still a shortage of skilled professional software engineers.
> People who actually understand the nature of software and how software
> can be developed in order to solve business problems, are in short
> supply. If this were not the case, all software projects would be
> completed on time, to customer requirements and to budget nine times
> out of ten, rather than two times out of ten as is the case. The
> reason why so many software projects fail is because there are so many
> unskilled people, at all levels, involved in software development
> projects.
The key words being, "at all levels".
Even when there wasn't this many people in IT out of work there were still
those in management who did not understand that you can't throw new features
in to the plan two months before a release.
I loved the job I was laid off from. Clear specifications drawn up ahead of
time and gone over with the client several times. And adequate development
timeframe and plenty of time to test in house and during on site
implementation. Problem was, the bottom fell out of the market they are in
and I was one of many in a long stream that had been let go. People who
still work there do not know how long they will still have a job.
I am interested in getting certified ASAP because even with several years of
experience developing mission critical applications in Windows and UNIX and
OS/2, I am not getting the calls would expect if there really was a
shortage. I'm not disagreeing with the way you put it, "People who actually
understand the nature of software and how software can be developed in order
to solve business problems, are in short supply." Most of those people who
should have that understanding should be in management and be able to help a
programmer develop their skills and then should be able to retain them.
Business is not stagnant and neither are the people. Either the personal
motivation of the person or extenuating circumstances may lead to them
moving on and their retention by the employer is impossible.
My biggest point is, Don't quit your day job until you have another lined
up.
| |
| Kline Sphere 2003-06-23, 4:23 pm |
| >The key words being, "at all levels".
>
>Even when there wasn't this many people in IT out of work there were still
>those in management who did not understand that you can't throw new features
>in to the plan two months before a release.
From what I am told and have seen for myself, this is so.
>I am interested in getting certified ASAP because even with several years of
>experience developing mission critical applications in Windows and UNIX and
>OS/2, I am not getting the calls would expect if there really was a
>shortage. I'm not disagreeing with the way you put it, "People who actually
>understand the nature of software and how software can be developed in order
>to solve business problems, are in short supply." Most of those people who
>should have that understanding should be in management and be able to help a
>programmer develop their skills and then should be able to retain them.
Not sure how much certification will or will not help, I guess it
won't do any harm. However, companies are looking for business
experiences as well as technical experience.
>Business is not stagnant and neither are the people. Either the personal
>motivation of the person or extenuating circumstances may lead to them
>moving on and their retention by the employer is impossible.
True, hence why I've been with the same company for a little over
twenty years. They look after their employees and yes pay well.
Although software development is not their core business, they
understand how important it is to there success.
>My biggest point is, Don't quit your day job until you have another lined
>up.
Why would anyone want too?
| |
| Gary Krone 2003-06-24, 12:23 pm |
|
"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:i2pefv4kkktgrm675l5qf472n
mol4ptg64@4ax.com...
> >The key words being, "at all levels".
> >
> >Even when there wasn't this many people in IT out of work there were
still
> >those in management who did not understand that you can't throw new
features
> >in to the plan two months before a release.
>
> From what I am told and have seen for myself, this is so.
>
> >I am interested in getting certified ASAP because even with several years
of
> >experience developing mission critical applications in Windows and UNIX
and
> >OS/2, I am not getting the calls would expect if there really was a
> >shortage. I'm not disagreeing with the way you put it, "People who
actually
> >understand the nature of software and how software can be developed in
order
> >to solve business problems, are in short supply." Most of those people
who
> >should have that understanding should be in management and be able to
help a
> >programmer develop their skills and then should be able to retain them.
>
> Not sure how much certification will or will not help, I guess it
> won't do any harm. However, companies are looking for business
> experiences as well as technical experience.
I've had recruiters tell me flat out that companies will not even look at
your resume unless there are certifications.
>
> >Business is not stagnant and neither are the people. Either the personal
> >motivation of the person or extenuating circumstances may lead to them
> >moving on and their retention by the employer is impossible.
>
> True, hence why I've been with the same company for a little over
> twenty years. They look after their employees and yes pay well.
> Although software development is not their core business, they
> understand how important it is to there success.
You're lucky. Most companies I've worked for, especially the consulting
firms, will not offer any training unless requested by the client. I had to
sign payback notes with my last employer for the tuition re-imbursement they
were providing for my MBA courses. All payback obligations were released
when they laid me off. I would still go back to work for them.
>
> >My biggest point is, Don't quit your day job until you have another lined
> >up.
>
> Why would anyone want too?
>
Three years ago you could and have an offer within a month.
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