microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd - any new MCADs or MCSDs hired recently?

Author

any new MCADs or MCSDs hired recently?

Feng

2003-06-15, 1:23 pm

Just want to know if the market is coming alive.

Let us know.

Thanks

Feng

Kline Sphere

2003-06-15, 3:23 pm

>Just want to know if the market is coming alive.

The 'market', as you put it, has never be dead. The only problem was
that during the late 90's, IT became saturated with incompetent
Baboons - at all levels.

While it is true that companies are going bust, this is nothing new.
Even at the height of the dot com boom, companies went bust. What that
means, is that their market share (of whatever that is) goes else
where).

However, what is plain to see is that companies have tightened their
financial belts, with IT being cut back more than other areas as it
often the biggest area of waste in a company. Companies are also
reluctant to start new ventures or take on addition risks, which means
less involvement for IT. Company accountants want to see that any
expenditure in IT will have a cost benefit, before it is undertaken,
so less pointless projects.

Having said that, there will always be jobs for 'experienced' IT
'professionals', who have in past demonstrated a good understanding of
software development practices within specific business domains. You
may not be able to get a job at the end of your block or even in the
same neighborhood, but you get the right job somewhere.

msnews.microsoft.com

2003-06-24, 8:23 pm

Excuse me? Not dead, what rock are you living under?

I have 25 years experience, MCSD.net and I have not been able to find a job
in a year. I could work on a 1099 in Boston (No expenses) for $25/hr. The
recruiter told me that is twice when they pay in India, and when MS get the
250,000 developers trained in China, what will be left. No development work
that is for sure. Enjoy your job while you got it. I do not think it will be
for long.

JP Morgan/Chase has ordered ALL development off shore, this is the mantra of
Corporate america, Experience? it is your pink slip, certification? MCSD
stands for My Career was Shipped to Delhi. Time to find a new profession, US
development is dead, and its not comming back.

--
Tom Vande Stouwe, MCP, MCAD.Net, MCSD.Net

"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have
of it."
Thomas Jefferson
"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:ajgpevcsu1q57tjt7f9r4a0ec
i59rmrruj@4ax.com...
> >Just want to know if the market is coming alive.
>
> The 'market', as you put it, has never be dead. The only problem was
> that during the late 90's, IT became saturated with incompetent
> Baboons - at all levels.
>
> While it is true that companies are going bust, this is nothing new.
> Even at the height of the dot com boom, companies went bust. What that
> means, is that their market share (of whatever that is) goes else
> where).
>
> However, what is plain to see is that companies have tightened their
> financial belts, with IT being cut back more than other areas as it
> often the biggest area of waste in a company. Companies are also
> reluctant to start new ventures or take on addition risks, which means
> less involvement for IT. Company accountants want to see that any
> expenditure in IT will have a cost benefit, before it is undertaken,
> so less pointless projects.
>
> Having said that, there will always be jobs for 'experienced' IT
> 'professionals', who have in past demonstrated a good understanding of
> software development practices within specific business domains. You
> may not be able to get a job at the end of your block or even in the
> same neighborhood, but you get the right job somewhere.

Kline Sphere

2003-06-25, 10:23 am

>Excuse me? Not dead, what rock are you living under?

Clearly not the same one as you.

>I have 25 years experience, MCSD.net and I have not been able to find a job
>in a year.

A lot depends on what sort of business experience you have. Every one
can learn dot net, Java and whatever the next technology that comes
along which allows you to do the same thing in a different way.
Microsoft certification means jack in the real world.

Also you may find you are being discriminated because of your age.

No company wants to employ grunts that can simple program, any monkey
can be trained to do that. Companies want individuals who will add
value to their company and give it a competitive edge over their
rivals, which require may than simply learning the syntax of a dozen
computer languages.

The company I work for recently hired two new faces and were not
spoiled for choice. In fact, the two people were the only two that had
the required business knowledge and technical know how. The rest
seemed to be off cuts from the dot net boom.

>The
>recruiter told me that is twice when they pay in India, and when MS get the
>250,000 developers trained in China, what will be left. No development work
>that is for sure.

> Enjoy your job while you got it. I do not think it will be
>for long.

I have been with the same company for twenty three years, twenty of
which have been in IT. The company is in sound shape, and if the
company did go bust it would be the result of a slump not seen since
the twenties, in which case nothing in the world would matter any more
because the value of many companies and other stocks would be
worthless.

>JP Morgan/Chase has ordered ALL development off shore, this is the mantra of
>Corporate america, Experience? it is your pink slip, certification? MCSD
>stands for My Career was Shipped to Delhi. Time to find a new profession, US
>development is dead, and its not comming back.

If you have been in the profession for 25 years you must have heard
the saying 'the death of the American programmer'. Back in the mid
80's outsourcing (including off shore) became the think to do. Then it
changed back to in house development because it was cheaper. The same
thing happened in the early nineties, along with 'down sizing'.

The problem now is that there are too many useless people within the
IT profession who simple have no idea (you only have to look at this
news group to see the 'quantity' of the posters). As such, IT
departments and infrastructures are in [very] poor shape and are seen
as financial burden. So the finance directors look for ways to cut
expenses, easy solution, although not nearly the most cost effective,
is outsourcing.

For medium and large companies with large IT needs, it is far cheaper
to develop in house, using freelance specialists where required. The
problem here is that most of these companies do not have the IT staff
with the required ability to perform the tasks i.e.incompetent
managers, directors as well as technical people, hence why eight out
of ten IT projects fail.

So for top quantity, experienced IT professionals (not grunts how can
slap a control on a form) are in short supply.

Fluker

2003-06-25, 12:23 pm

> So for top quantity, experienced IT professionals (not grunts how can
> slap a control on a form) are in short supply.

Very true. And this would continue forever. It's not just true for
IT, infact in any career, top cream is always going to be in demand and
in short supply.

"Kline Sphere" <T> wrote in message
news:80cjfv0o74sf6bq046u259oo7
6iat9u8a4@4ax.com...
> >Excuse me? Not dead, what rock are you living under?
>
> Clearly not the same one as you.
>
> >I have 25 years experience, MCSD.net and I have not been able to find a
job
> >in a year.
>
> A lot depends on what sort of business experience you have. Every one
> can learn dot net, Java and whatever the next technology that comes
> along which allows you to do the same thing in a different way.
> Microsoft certification means jack in the real world.
>
> Also you may find you are being discriminated because of your age.
>
> No company wants to employ grunts that can simple program, any monkey
> can be trained to do that. Companies want individuals who will add
> value to their company and give it a competitive edge over their
> rivals, which require may than simply learning the syntax of a dozen
> computer languages.
>
> The company I work for recently hired two new faces and were not
> spoiled for choice. In fact, the two people were the only two that had
> the required business knowledge and technical know how. The rest
> seemed to be off cuts from the dot net boom.
>
>
> >The
> >recruiter told me that is twice when they pay in India, and when MS get
the
> >250,000 developers trained in China, what will be left. No development
work
> >that is for sure.
>
> > Enjoy your job while you got it. I do not think it will be
> >for long.
>
> I have been with the same company for twenty three years, twenty of
> which have been in IT. The company is in sound shape, and if the
> company did go bust it would be the result of a slump not seen since
> the twenties, in which case nothing in the world would matter any more
> because the value of many companies and other stocks would be
> worthless.
>
> >JP Morgan/Chase has ordered ALL development off shore, this is the mantra
of
> >Corporate america, Experience? it is your pink slip, certification? MCSD
> >stands for My Career was Shipped to Delhi. Time to find a new profession,
US
> >development is dead, and its not comming back.
>
> If you have been in the profession for 25 years you must have heard
> the saying 'the death of the American programmer'. Back in the mid
> 80's outsourcing (including off shore) became the think to do. Then it
> changed back to in house development because it was cheaper. The same
> thing happened in the early nineties, along with 'down sizing'.
>
> The problem now is that there are too many useless people within the
> IT profession who simple have no idea (you only have to look at this
> news group to see the 'quantity' of the posters). As such, IT
> departments and infrastructures are in [very] poor shape and are seen
> as financial burden. So the finance directors look for ways to cut
> expenses, easy solution, although not nearly the most cost effective,
> is outsourcing.
>
> For medium and large companies with large IT needs, it is far cheaper
> to develop in house, using freelance specialists where required. The
> problem here is that most of these companies do not have the IT staff
> with the required ability to perform the tasks i.e.incompetent
> managers, directors as well as technical people, hence why eight out
> of ten IT projects fail.
>
> So for top quantity, experienced IT professionals (not grunts how can
> slap a control on a form) are in short supply.

Kline Sphere

2003-06-25, 12:24 pm

>Very true. And this would continue forever. It's not just true for
>IT, infact in any career, top cream is always going to be in demand and
>in short supply.

Yep good old supply and demand.

tommylee

2003-06-26, 2:23 pm

I agree. The reason that companies are out sourcing their projects to
countries like India,China is that the capable software developers in US
is depleting. Microsoft is investing millions of dollars in those
countries because she sees a lot of potential there.

--
Posted via http://dbforums.com

IntelexIT

2003-06-27, 10:23 pm

tommylee <member32008@dbforums.com> wrote in message news:<3047279.1056649327@dbforums.com>...
> I agree. The reason that companies are out sourcing their projects to
> countries like India,China is that the capable software developers in US
> is depleting. Microsoft is investing millions of dollars in those
> countries because she sees a lot of potential there.

I disagree with this completely... MS is investing because they are
hedging their bet against open source… (but that's not the topic
here).

I believe we in the US are going through yet another "growth period"
in IT just as the previous poster noted, through the 80's and 90's (I
was around back then as well). Our industry needs to learn something
that they simply haven't yet.
In order to be a "Developer" you have to understand the business you
are automating, you have to have experience.

Unfortunately the $10.00 per hour coders over in India are looking
really attractive to those setting budgets right now. So what happens?
The people on this side who know very little about real software
development are demanding cost cutting to compete with their
competitors who are doing the same thing! It's a vicious circle. These
people seriously think a programmer is a programmer is a programmer.
It's like fixing a car to them, there's only one way to do it. We all
know that's WRONG! There's the right way (which is a combination of
art and science), the kluge way (which is the old "At least it works!"
way) and the wrong way.

I believe our industry WILL change but it is not dead. More and more
demand will be made for "Specification Writers" and "Project
Architects" to develop the specs to be shipped over seas and be a face
for the clients to actually see. Ultimately I believe businesses will
come back to the old stand-by of "In the long run, quality is better
that Quantity every day" and "I'll take one experienced individual
over eight inexperienced every day". I'm betting on another 6 months
before we see an obvious change in direction.

Please don't get me wrong, of course there are folks in India that
know our business, but it is a very very small percentage of their
coders...

Deacon

Kline Sphere

2003-06-28, 9:23 am

Well put.

>In order to be a "Developer" you have to understand the business you
>are automating, you have to have experience.

Unfortunately the dot com boom generated a torrent of unskilled IT
people. Fortunately, many of those have died, or are dying, by the way
side.

On 27 Jun 2003 20:11:35 -0700, nospam@intelexit.com (IntelexIT) wrote:

>tommylee <member32008@dbforums.com> wrote in message news:<3047279.1056649327@dbforums.com>...
>> I agree. The reason that companies are out sourcing their projects to
>> countries like India,China is that the capable software developers in US
>> is depleting. Microsoft is investing millions of dollars in those
>> countries because she sees a lot of potential there.
>
>I disagree with this completely... MS is investing because they are
>hedging their bet against open source… (but that's not the topic
>here).
>
>I believe we in the US are going through yet another "growth period"
>in IT just as the previous poster noted, through the 80's and 90's (I
>was around back then as well). Our industry needs to learn something
>that they simply haven't yet.
>In order to be a "Developer" you have to understand the business you
>are automating, you have to have experience.
>
>Unfortunately the $10.00 per hour coders over in India are looking
>really attractive to those setting budgets right now. So what happens?
>The people on this side who know very little about real software
>development are demanding cost cutting to compete with their
>competitors who are doing the same thing! It's a vicious circle. These
>people seriously think a programmer is a programmer is a programmer.
>It's like fixing a car to them, there's only one way to do it. We all
>know that's WRONG! There's the right way (which is a combination of
>art and science), the kluge way (which is the old "At least it works!"
>way) and the wrong way.
>
>I believe our industry WILL change but it is not dead. More and more
>demand will be made for "Specification Writers" and "Project
>Architects" to develop the specs to be shipped over seas and be a face
>for the clients to actually see. Ultimately I believe businesses will
>come back to the old stand-by of "In the long run, quality is better
>that Quantity every day" and "I'll take one experienced individual
>over eight inexperienced every day". I'm betting on another 6 months
>before we see an obvious change in direction.
>
>Please don't get me wrong, of course there are folks in India that
>know our business, but it is a very very small percentage of their
>coders...
>
>Deacon

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