microsoft.public.cert.exams.mcse - Microsoft Certification

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Microsoft Certification - Is It a Necessity?

Damaeus

2003-05-20, 8:23 pm

Microsoft Certification - Is It a Necessity?

I responded to an ad on the radio concerning MCSE. I checked out the
website at www.computertraining.com and found that the tuition is nearly
$20,000. Financial aid is available. The training, according to the
website, is on Windows 2000 Professional. Isn't Win2K being phased out in
favor of WinXP Professional?

I've also heard that certification is not worth the paper it's written on,
and that employers look for people who can do the job, not people who just
have a piece of paper saying they're certified.

I'm thinking I may be better off going to a local company which I know has
"on the job training" at an entry-level position.

I already have a lot of basic knowledge about how networks operate. I took
the screening test at www.computertraining.com and made a perfect score,
though some of the multiple choice questions contained some ridiculously
obvious incorrect choices, especially the one about calling a "boot sector"
the section of the hard disk that's shaped like a boot.

I'm hoping to hear most of all some opinions about the current relevance of
Win2K Pro and whether it would be a huge waste of $20,000 to become
certified in Win2K Pro when WinXP Pro is around, and some real-world stories
about how prospective employers viewed your list of Microsoft
certifications. Were they impressed by that? Or did they even seem to
care? Were they more interested in your actual real world experience with
networks?

I guess there would be employers who only hire "certified" professionals.
Perhaps they pay more, too.

What's the real deal here?

Thanks,
Damaeus

Laura A. Robinson

2003-05-20, 9:23 pm

circa Wed, 21 May 2003 01:21:57 GMT, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Damaeus (no-
mail@hotmail.invalid.net) said,
>
> I responded to an ad on the radio concerning MCSE. I checked out the
> website at www.computertraining.com and found that the tuition is nearly
> $20,000. Financial aid is available.

In regards to the web site in question, I would encourage you to
research many options regarding training. Let's just say that radio
ads may not be the best way to find a good training center, in some
cases...

Laura
--
Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

KLXrider

2003-05-20, 10:23 pm

"Damaeus" <no-mail@hotmail.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:u2llcvg433o0alf5d9cdkkf4f
h8iakho8q@4ax.com...
> Microsoft Certification - Is It a Necessity?

NO

Bobster123

2003-05-20, 10:23 pm

>From: Damaeus no-mail@hotmail.invalid.net wrote:

>I responded to an ad on the radio concerning MCSE. I checked out the
>website at www.computertraining.com and found that the tuition is nearly
>$20,000. Financial aid is available.

What happens if the place goes out of business after you pay them your money?
It happens quite a bit with these computer schools. I'd say your $20,000 would
be better invested at a college.

>I've also heard that certification is not worth the paper it's written on,
>and that employers look for people who can do the job, not people who just
>have a piece of paper saying they're certified.

Certification was hot about four years ago. That's when many of these computer
schools sprang up promising big-paying jobs if you graduated and got certified.
Things are different now.

Laura A. Robinson

2003-05-20, 10:23 pm

circa 21 May 2003 02:41:40 GMT, in microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse,
Bobster123 (bobster123@aol.com) said,

> >I responded to an ad on the radio concerning MCSE. I checked out the
> >website at www.computertraining.com and found that the tuition is nearly
> >$20,000. Financial aid is available.
>
> What happens if the place goes out of business after you pay them your money?
> It happens quite a bit with these computer schools. I'd say your $20,000 would
> be better invested at a college.
>
This particular school is particularly well-known for its radio
advertisements, at least where I live. Can't comment beyond that
without expressing some serious opinion stuff. :-)

Laura
--
Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

Damaeus

2003-05-21, 12:23 am

In news:microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, "Laura A. Robinson"
< firstinitiallastname@technolog
ist.com> posted on Tue, 20 May 2003 22:52:35
-0400:

> This particular school is particularly well-known for its radio
> advertisements, at least where I live. Can't comment beyond that
> without expressing some serious opinion stuff. :-)

I live in Hampton Roads. If your opinions are about the school, these types
of schools, or certification in general, please feel free to let it fly.

I've also investigated Strayer University, which actually offers real
degrees and not just certification. I would imagine that these degrees
actually focus on more than just Microsoft, but other "brands" of network
operating systems as well. I have more trust in Strayer than this other
outfit, but at Strayer, I think you have to cover all your basics, like
english, history, math, science, psychology, sociology, etc..., unless you
pick those up at a community college. Probably four years to get through it
all.

Damaeus

fatchronos

2003-05-21, 12:33 am

IF youre keen, willing to look hard, and willing to maybe bend the law/morals a bit you can become MCSE for less than $1000 - i.e only the cost of the tests themselves. No need to spend 20k if you are already a little in the know with computers.

I'm doing my MCSE on the cheap - only paying for the microsoft study guides and the tests. I'm not sure how much this stuff costs in america but i would say that all the books + tests could be had for less than $2000. The books, plus a fair bit of online review of free stuff like the MS knowledge base and practise questions on the internet can get you quite far. I'm on my 5th test and all i've paid for is the MS books, and i havn't failed one test so far.

Plus, if you buy the MS books you can get discounts on the tests...

=?Windows-1252?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=

2003-05-21, 9:23 am

"fatchronos" <fatchronos.nrmsa@mail.examnotes.net> wrote in message
news:fatchronos.nrmsa@mail.examnotes.net...
>
> IF youre keen, willing to look hard, and willing to maybe bend the
> law/morals a bit you can become MCSE for less than $1000

Has anyone else noticed that just about every post in this group that comes
from examnotes is pro-braindumps?

Willing to "look hard?"

How about "Study hard?"

"bend the law/morals a bit?"

Isn't that like being a little bit pregnant?

To the original poster: Use that money to go to college. You'll be glad
you did.

View this thread: http://www.examnotes.net/articleassXXXXer.html
Frisbee
MCNGP-----------------------------------------------------------------
Frisbee MCNGP's Profile:
http://www.examnotes.net/forums/mem...iteme&userid=13

--
Fris "It's May and the loons are in full bloom" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

billyw

2003-05-21, 10:23 am

maybe he should use the money for tons of beer and some loose women. A
weekend to remember.

"Frisbee® MCNGP" <bhileman@dasi-software.com> wrote in message
news:uAayO$5HDHA.1788@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> "fatchronos" <fatchronos.nrmsa@mail.examnotes.net> wrote in message
> news:fatchronos.nrmsa@mail.examnotes.net...
> >
> > IF youre keen, willing to look hard, and willing to maybe bend the
> > law/morals a bit you can become MCSE for less than $1000
>
> Has anyone else noticed that just about every post in this group that
comes
> from examnotes is pro-braindumps?
>
> Willing to "look hard?"
>
> How about "Study hard?"
>
> "bend the law/morals a bit?"
>
> Isn't that like being a little bit pregnant?
>
> To the original poster: Use that money to go to college. You'll be glad
> you did.
>
> View this thread: http://www.examnotes.net/articleassXXXXer.html
> Frisbee
> MCNGP-----------------------------------------------------------------
> Frisbee MCNGP's Profile:
> http://www.examnotes.net/forums/mem...iteme&userid=13
>
>
> --
> Fris "It's May and the loons are in full bloom" bee® MCNGP #13
>
> http://www.mcngp.tk
> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

Adam Killian

2003-05-21, 6:23 pm

Damaeus wrote:
> Microsoft Certification - Is It a Necessity?
>
> I responded to an ad on the radio concerning MCSE. I checked out the
> website at www.computertraining.com and found that the tuition is nearly
> $20,000. Financial aid is available. The training, according to the
> website, is on Windows 2000 Professional. Isn't Win2K being phased out in
> favor of WinXP Professional?

DO NOT give these fools $20,000.

At least try to do it on the cheap first. Here's how:

1. I assume you already have at least one computer (because you posted),
if you only have one, go buy another one. (doesn't have to be very
fancy, just has to meet the minimum system requirements for W2K(3)
server). If you are really broke, get a copy of VMware. You can even
get a limited eval copy for free from thier website.

2. Buy a small hub/switch (or, in a pinch, a crossover cable will do) I
would avoid an actual switch, because sometimes they can make
packet-sniffing a pain in the butt. (IIRC, The SMS elective has packet
sniffing stuff in it)

3. Go get the Microsoft Press official training kit for Windows2000
professional (or XP if you're so inclined). they're about $50 new. Ebay
is your friend. Some of the training kits include a 180-day demo of the
OS, so you should be covered. (If you use up your 180 days, reformat and
reinstall, it's good practice anyhow)

4. Read the book, do the exercises.

5. If there are parts of the book you just don't understand, you can
a. read the online help. (failing that)
b. consult the Windows 200x resource kit (failing that)
c. Try technet (failing that)
d. Post a question in this, or other similar forums.

6. Take the test. If you fail the test, you might want to look into
transcenders/or Self Test Software, or some other test simulation
software (last I checked, these are about $150/test).

7. repeat steps 3-6 for each of the seven tests.

8. if you find that you're really really stuck, you can always enroll in
a single MOC class that deals with the specific product you're having
trouble with. (I dunno how much these cost, I'm thinking somewhere in
the $1000-$2000 range for a 5 day-er)

Total costs (worst case):

1. old computer/VMware $500.00
2. hub $50.00
3. 7 books @$50ea $350.00
4. 7 test vouchers $1050.00
5. 7 copies of STS $1050.00
6. One MOC class $1500.00

total: $4500.00

There you have it: You'll get your MCSE, actually learn the products,
and have at least $15,500.00 extra dollars.

This all sounds like a lot of work, and it really is, but it's fun. If
you find that this is not fun, then maybe you should reconsider doing
this for a living. (Not trying be be a jerk, but why do something you
don't like?) In order to be a good admin/engineer, you have to be doing
this stuff ALL THE TIME.

Adam

Damaeus

2003-05-21, 7:23 pm

In news:microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, "Phil" <pbutlin76@hotmail.com>
posted on Wed, 21 May 2003 08:04:55 -0700:

> $20,000 is absurd, unless you're getting a IT management
> related degree as well.

You get Category 5 Cabling, MCP, MCSE, and MCSA in 16 weeks, plus a 2-week
buildout of what has been learned up until that point.

http://www.computertraining.com/cer...ulum-mcse.shtml

> Advice? Take a good, entry-level,
> broad-based job if you can and push for training and
> materials to 'improve your skill set' (they love that
> stuff). Get your MCSE as you go along.

I'd like to do that. In fact, that would be ideal. But how do I know which
companies have these positions? I don't imagine that going door to door is
going to be of much use. Everytime I see an ad in the paper advertising a
position, they always want someone with experience. Well, I do have SOME
experience, but maybe not the type they're looking for.

Laura A. Robinson

2003-05-21, 7:23 pm

circa Wed, 21 May 2003 04:38:35 GMT, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Damaeus (no-
mail@hotmail.invalid.net) said,

> > This particular school is particularly well-known for its radio
> > advertisements, at least where I live. Can't comment beyond that
> > without expressing some serious opinion stuff. :-)
>
> I live in Hampton Roads. If your opinions are about the school, these types
> of schools, or certification in general, please feel free to let it fly.
>
> I've also investigated Strayer University, which actually offers real
> degrees and not just certification. I would imagine that these degrees
> actually focus on more than just Microsoft, but other "brands" of network
> operating systems as well. I have more trust in Strayer than this other
> outfit, but at Strayer, I think you have to cover all your basics, like
> english, history, math, science, psychology, sociology, etc..., unless you
> pick those up at a community college. Probably four years to get through it
> all.
>
Let's just say that the particular school in question doesn't rate
high on my list.

Laura
--
Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

Laura A. Robinson

2003-05-21, 8:23 pm

circa Wed, 21 May 2003 20:19:30 -0400, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Laura A. Robinson
(firstinitiallastname@technolo
gist.com) said,
> Let's just say that the particular school in question doesn't rate
> high on my list.
>
>
The first school listed, that is. I'm not familiar with the
university you mention, but I'd be hard pressed to not consider it
the better option.

Laura
--
Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

Damaeus

2003-05-22, 1:23 am

In news:microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Adam Killian <vitki@bonius.com>
posted on Wed, 21 May 2003 18:59:44 -0400:

> Damaeus wrote:
> > Microsoft Certification - Is It a Necessity?
> >
> > I responded to an ad on the radio concerning MCSE. I checked out the
> > website at www.computertraining.com and found that the tuition is nearly
> > $20,000. Financial aid is available. The training, according to the
> > website, is on Windows 2000 Professional. Isn't Win2K being phased out in
> > favor of WinXP Professional?
>
> DO NOT give these fools $20,000.
>
> At least try to do it on the cheap first. Here's how:
>
> 1. I assume you already have at least one computer (because you posted),
> if you only have one, go buy another one. (doesn't have to be very
> fancy, just has to meet the minimum system requirements for W2K(3)
> server). If you are really broke, get a copy of VMware. You can even
> get a limited eval copy for free from thier website.

Well, in this household, there are actually three computers, a Linksys
router, and wiring that my brother-in-law and I installed as the house was
being built. I didn't know how to work with stripping or putting the plugs
on CAT-5 cables, so I hired a technician from a local computer shop to come
in and do it to make sure it was done right. So each computer is in a
different room. One of the computers is on the fritz. I supsect a bad
power supply, plus it needs a hard drive because the one that's in it sounds
like a loose belt on a '72 Plymouth. I have an extra hard drive, and power
supplies aren't expensive, so since my brother-in-law is looking to buy a
new computer to replace that old E-Machine, I bet he'll let me have his old
one for free. The extra hard drive is the same type that's already in his
as I stole it from my friend's E-Machine when I built him a new computer.
It's a 4.3 gigabyte ATA-33 hard drive.

> 2. Buy a small hub/switch (or, in a pinch, a crossover cable will do) I
> would avoid an actual switch, because sometimes they can make
> packet-sniffing a pain in the butt. (IIRC, The SMS elective has packet
> sniffing stuff in it)

Before setting up the router/client network, I used a crossover network
cable for years. :-)

> Total costs (worst case):
>
> 1. old computer/VMware $500.00
> 2. hub $50.00
> 3. 7 books @$50ea $350.00
> 4. 7 test vouchers $1050.00
> 5. 7 copies of STS $1050.00
> 6. One MOC class $1500.00
>
> total: $4500.00
>
>
> There you have it: You'll get your MCSE, actually learn the products,
> and have at least $15,500.00 extra dollars.

Okay, all that looks great. But the deal is that I'm pretty much on an
ultimatum schedule. I'm living with relatives and I have until the end of
the year to regain my independence. Classes at computertraining.com don't
start until August 19 and it lasts for 16 weeks. Four months of training
and I can be through it by December 16. In the time between now and August
19, I can work two jobs and save money like my life depends on it -- enough
so that by the time December 19 rolls around, I can have enough money to get
a place of my own. This school gets regular visits from local companies
looking for people who know what we're learning. It's like opening myself
up to all kinds of opportunities I might not otherwise have. There's a job
placement program there as well. I already know a lot of the basics. I
just need to fill in the gaps, as the instructor agreed.

On the other hand, I could do what you describe. It would take me some time
to come up with enough money to get started on self-training. I've just
changed jobs and I depleted all my reserve funds (there wasn't much to begin
with) getting a car fit for road use. I'd be lucky to pass the
certification exams by December, I think, because of the up-front costs
associated with learning it all. I don't think I can afford to pay for all
those materials, get an apartment by January, and keep up with all my
current bills at the same time.

Paying $20,000 just to get through it all may be my only option, and then
there's the advantage of the corporate recruiters coming around. They say
that 90% of the people coming to class know nothing about computer networks
at all, so I'll at least be in the 10% which will probably have a better
shot at whatever opportunities come along.

> This all sounds like a lot of work, and it really is, but it's fun. If
> you find that this is not fun, then maybe you should reconsider doing
> this for a living. (Not trying be be a jerk, but why do something you
> don't like?) In order to be a good admin/engineer, you have to be doing
> this stuff ALL THE TIME.

Yeah, it is fun setting up a network, and it's fun using it, too. I think
I'd be more interested in being an administrator than an engineer, but
engineering isn't out of the question, either, especially if it pays more!

Since I'm single with no dependents and no former wives to milk me for
alimony or child support, whatever I make is mine. If I could find a 100k
per year job, I could live off $40k, save $60k which I'd invest in ladders
of CD's. At an average of 5% interest per year on 60k worth of CD's, in one
year I could supplement my income by $250 per month just on the interest
from that savings. And having an extra $250 a month just makes it that much
easier to save that same $60k or more.

After five years of saving 60k per year, that supplemental income would be
$1250 per month in interest deposits into my checking account. But hell,
even half that would cause bolts of ecstasy to course through my spine.

After 20 years of following the same plan, or even continuing to live off
the same $40k per year and saving $60k, my savings would grow even faster.
Continue buying 5-year CD's, laddering them out to keep some stability to
how much income is coming in. After 20 years, that would be 1.2 million in
deposits, $753,278 in interest, $210,918 paid out in taxes, leaving $1.7
million saved. The interest off that at 5% would be $87,118, minus 28% in
taxes, leaving $62,724.96 per year going into my checking account.

Well, with any luck, I'll reach that goal before I'm 55. I'm 33 now. As
long as I don't fall in love with some gold digging woman, I think I can
swing it, assuming I get one of the higher paying jobs. But even
accomplishing only half of that goal would be fairly satisfying.

And if I get a government service job, they give you the option of retiring
with pay after 20 years, so not only would I have those interest deposits,
but I'd have a good retirement salary coming in. Well, I don't plan to
retire at 53 years of age, so I could continue working in the field, drawing
not only interest and government retirement, but another full salary from a
company. Or I could simply stop working in the networking field and instead
pursue things I've always wanted to do, like acting, music and art.

I wish I had decided to do this about ten or fifteen years ago.

Adam Killian

2003-05-22, 12:23 pm

Damaeus wrote:

>
> On the other hand, I could do what you describe. It would take me some time
> to come up with enough money to get started on self-training. I've just

You only need one PC and a copy of the training kit ($50) to do the
WinXP Pro test. Then you'll at least have your MCP.

> alimony or child support, whatever I make is mine. If I could find a 100k
> per year job, I could live off $40k, save $60k which I'd invest in ladders

That's a *big* if. I don't want to poop on your picnic or anything, but
I think finding a $100k job with just an MCSE and no IT experience is
kind of unrealistic.

The IT job market is currently in the toilet. I wouldn't bank on more
than $30-$50k for an entry-level gig. (adjust numbers accordingly, if
you live in NY or SF, etc.)
I know computertraining.com has those ads on the radio, making all kinds
of outrageous claims about how much money the 'average' MCSE makes.

What they don't tell you, is that this 'average' MCSE prolly also has 10
years of IT experience, a comp-sci degree, and lives in a major metro
area, where salaries are inflated to keep up with cost of living.

>
> Well, with any luck, I'll reach that goal before I'm 55. I'm 33 now. As
> long as I don't fall in love with some gold digging woman, I think I can
> swing it, assuming I get one of the higher paying jobs. But even
> accomplishing only half of that goal would be fairly satisfying.
>

Well, you cetainly seem to have a long-term plan. And that's a good
thing. I would think long and hard about starting the whole thing $20k
in debt.

If anything, I would go to a local college(some of which do offer MCSE
programs for college credit). And take out the loan as a
federally-subsidised student loan (these have silly interest rates, like
5%), and get your MCSE and your associate degree at the same time.
Most colleges also have the job-placement assistance you mentioned.

When I was in college, I took a work-study (basically indentured
servitude, in exchange for tution) in the university computer
department. This is a good way to get some real-world(ish) experience
to go along with your MCSE and your degree.

I wish you luck with whatever path you choose.

Adam

billyw

2003-05-22, 12:23 pm

you are really ugly aren't u.

the gold digging woman, comment gave it away...

before you spend 20k, first thing is to get a life

"Damaeus" <no-mail@hotmail.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:4noocvonli5pcqecnll9cb87e
us4dodskg@4ax.com...
> In news:microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Adam Killian <vitki@bonius.com>
> posted on Wed, 21 May 2003 18:59:44 -0400:
>
> > Damaeus wrote:
> > > Microsoft Certification - Is It a Necessity?
> > >
> > > I responded to an ad on the radio concerning MCSE. I checked out the
> > > website at www.computertraining.com and found that the tuition is
nearly
> > > $20,000. Financial aid is available. The training, according to the
> > > website, is on Windows 2000 Professional. Isn't Win2K being phased
out in[co
lor=darkred]
> > > favor of WinXP Professional?
> >
> > DO NOT give these fools $20,000.
> >
> > At least try to do it on the cheap first. Here's how:
> >
> > 1. I assume you already have at least one computer (because you posted),
> > if you only have one, go buy another one. (doesn't have to be very
> > fancy, just has to meet the minimum system requirements for W2K(3)
> > server). If you are really broke, get a copy of VMware. You can even
> > get a limited eval copy for free from thier website.
>
> Well, in this household, there are actually three computers, a Linksys
> router, and wiring that my brother-in-law and I installed as the house was
> being built. I didn't know how to work with stripping or putting the[/color]
plugs
> on CAT-5 cables, so I hired a technician from a local computer shop to
come
> in and do it to make sure it was done right. So each computer is in a
> different room. One of the computers is on the fritz. I supsect a bad
> power supply, plus it needs a hard drive because the one that's in it
sounds
> like a loose belt on a '72 Plymouth. I have an extra hard drive, and
power
> supplies aren't expensive, so since my brother-in-law is looking to buy a
> new computer to replace that old E-Machine, I bet he'll let me have his
old
> one for free. The extra hard drive is the same type that's already in his
> as I stole it from my friend's E-Machine when I built him a new computer.
> It's a 4.3 gigabyte ATA-33 hard drive.
>
> > 2. Buy a small hub/switch (or, in a pinch, a crossover cable will do) I
> > would avoid an actual switch, because sometimes they can make
> > packet-sniffing a pain in the butt. (IIRC, The SMS elective has packet
> > sniffing stuff in it)
>
> Before setting up the router/client network, I used a crossover network
> cable for years. :-)
>
> > Total costs (worst case):
> >
> > 1. old computer/VMware $500.00
> > 2. hub $50.00
> > 3. 7 books @$50ea $350.00
> > 4. 7 test vouchers $1050.00
> > 5. 7 copies of STS $1050.00
> > 6. One MOC class $1500.00
> >
> > total: $4500.00
> >
> >
> > There you have it: You'll get your MCSE, actually learn the products,
> > and have at least $15,500.00 extra dollars.
>
> Okay, all that looks great. But the deal is that I'm pretty much on an
> ultimatum schedule. I'm living with relatives and I have until the end of
> the year to regain my independence. Classes at computertraining.com don't
> start until August 19 and it lasts for 16 weeks. Four months of training
> and I can be through it by December 16. In the time between now and
August
> 19, I can work two jobs and save money like my life depends on it --
enough
> so that by the time December 19 rolls around, I can have enough money to
get
> a place of my own. This school gets regular visits from local companies
> looking for people who know what we're learning. It's like opening myself
> up to all kinds of opportunities I might not otherwise have. There's a
job
> placement program there as well. I already know a lot of the basics. I
> just need to fill in the gaps, as the instructor agreed.
>
> On the other hand, I could do what you describe. It would take me some
time
> to come up with enough money to get started on self-training. I've just
> changed jobs and I depleted all my reserve funds (there wasn't much to
begin
> with) getting a car fit for road use. I'd be lucky to pass the
> certification exams by December, I think, because of the up-front costs
> associated with learning it all. I don't think I can afford to pay for
all
> those materials, get an apartment by January, and keep up with all my
> current bills at the same time.
>
> Paying $20,000 just to get through it all may be my only option, and then
> there's the advantage of the corporate recruiters coming around. They say
> that 90% of the people coming to class know nothing about computer
networks
> at all, so I'll at least be in the 10% which will probably have a better
> shot at whatever opportunities come along.
>
> > This all sounds like a lot of work, and it really is, but it's fun. If
> > you find that this is not fun, then maybe you should reconsider doing
> > this for a living. (Not trying be be a jerk, but why do something you
> > don't like?) In order to be a good admin/engineer, you have to be doing
> > this stuff ALL THE TIME.
>
> Yeah, it is fun setting up a network, and it's fun using it, too. I think
> I'd be more interested in being an administrator than an engineer, but
> engineering isn't out of the question, either, especially if it pays more!
>
> Since I'm single with no dependents and no former wives to milk me for
> alimony or child support, whatever I make is mine. If I could find a 100k
> per year job, I could live off $40k, save $60k which I'd invest in ladders
> of CD's. At an average of 5% interest per year on 60k worth of CD's, in
one
> year I could supplement my income by $250 per month just on the interest
> from that savings. And having an extra $250 a month just makes it that
much
> easier to save that same $60k or more.
>
> After five years of saving 60k per year, that supplemental income would be
> $1250 per month in interest deposits into my checking account. But hell,
> even half that would cause bolts of ecstasy to course through my spine.
>
> After 20 years of following the same plan, or even continuing to live off
> the same $40k per year and saving $60k, my savings would grow even faster.
> Continue buying 5-year CD's, laddering them out to keep some stability to
> how much income is coming in. After 20 years, that would be 1.2 million
in
> deposits, $753,278 in interest, $210,918 paid out in taxes, leaving $1.7
> million saved. The interest off that at 5% would be $87,118, minus 28% in
> taxes, leaving $62,724.96 per year going into my checking account.
>
> Well, with any luck, I'll reach that goal before I'm 55. I'm 33 now. As
> long as I don't fall in love with some gold digging woman, I think I can
> swing it, assuming I get one of the higher paying jobs. But even
> accomplishing only half of that goal would be fairly satisfying.
>
> And if I get a government service job, they give you the option of
retiring
> with pay after 20 years, so not only would I have those interest deposits,
> but I'd have a good retirement salary coming in. Well, I don't plan to
> retire at 53 years of age, so I could continue working in the field,
drawing
> not only interest and government retirement, but another full salary from
a
> company. Or I could simply stop working in the networking field and
instead
> pursue things I've always wanted to do, like acting, music and art.
>
> I wish I had decided to do this about ten or fifteen years ago.
>
>

JaR

2003-05-22, 2:23 pm

Damaeus wrote in message < 4noocvonli5pcqecnll9cb87eus4do
dskg@4ax.com>...
>In news:microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Adam Killian <vitki@bonius.com>
>posted on Wed, 21 May 2003 18:59:44 -0400:
>

Cold shot of reality time, bud.

There are MCSE's out there with years of experience that can't find jobs
right now. I went through the program, so far have my MCSA, and have been
trying to find an IT/IS gig for over a year now. About the only openings are
for Helldesk spots, and even those are drying up. Local company here just
laid off 300 folks 'cause Microshaft has "expanded it's international
operations base". In other words, shipped the jobs to Bangalore, India. I
have been using computers for years, and have taken care of the P.O.S. NT4 /
Citrix system here at work since they put it in. Nevertheless, the only gigs
I have been offered are entry level helldesk or minimum wage, part-time
repair gigs at places like CompUSA. If you don't have five years experience,
College degree *and* MCSE, you ain't gonna make anywhere close to that
$100K.

Sorry;

JR Jones
MCSA, A+, Net+

"And still a service writer at $WESELLCARS"

billyw

2003-05-22, 2:23 pm

isn't outsourcing great for western economies..
ah globalisation.. (not on our terms)

"JaR" <plente@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:eVC5eCJIDHA.588@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>
> Damaeus wrote in message < 4noocvonli5pcqecnll9cb87eus4do
dskg@4ax.com>...
> >In news:microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Adam Killian <vitki@bonius.com>
> >posted on Wed, 21 May 2003 18:59:44 -0400:
> >
>
>
> Cold shot of reality time, bud.
>
> There are MCSE's out there with years of experience that can't find jobs
> right now. I went through the program, so far have my MCSA, and have been
> trying to find an IT/IS gig for over a year now. About the only openings
are
> for Helldesk spots, and even those are drying up. Local company here just
> laid off 300 folks 'cause Microshaft has "expanded it's international
> operations base". In other words, shipped the jobs to Bangalore, India. I
> have been using computers for years, and have taken care of the P.O.S. NT4
/
> Citrix system here at work since they put it in. Nevertheless, the only
gigs
> I have been offered are entry level helldesk or minimum wage, part-time
> repair gigs at places like CompUSA. If you don't have five years
experience,
> college degree *and* MCSE, you ain't gonna make anywhere close to that
> $100K.
>
> Sorry;
>
> JR Jones
> MCSA, A+, Net+
>
> "And still a service writer at $WESELLCARS"
>
>

JaR

2003-05-22, 2:23 pm

billyw wrote in message ...
>isn't outsourcing great for western economies..
>ah globalisation.. (not on our terms)
>

Yeah, just fscking great. The local rag here had a huge article a while back
about a couple of local entrepreneurs (ex-MS guys) that are building a huge
campus in India with housing, stores, etc. for their employees. Giving the
local Indian economy a huge boost with $12,000 per year hi paid technical
positions for programmers. Meanwhile laying off gawd knows how many people
here.

JR Jones
"But look at all the good they are doing! Do the needful!"

Consultant

2003-05-22, 2:23 pm

you gotta love indians! ;-)

"JaR" <plente@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:ej2XhRJIDHA.1772@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>
> billyw wrote in message ...
> >isn't outsourcing great for western economies..
> >ah globalisation.. (not on our terms)
> >
>
> Yeah, just fscking great. The local rag here had a huge article a while
back
> about a couple of local entrepreneurs (ex-MS guys) that are building a
huge
> campus in India with housing, stores, etc. for their employees. Giving the
> local Indian economy a huge boost with $12,000 per year hi paid technical
> positions for programmers. Meanwhile laying off gawd knows how many people
> here.
>
> JR Jones
> "But look at all the good they are doing! Do the needful!"
>
>

billyw

2003-05-22, 2:23 pm

thats why, if i can help it, i buy no goods of chinese or indian origin..
(or french)
i rather pay a couple of quid more to keep a real person in a job

"JaR" <plente@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:ej2XhRJIDHA.1772@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>
> billyw wrote in message ...
> >isn't outsourcing great for western economies..
> >ah globalisation.. (not on our terms)
> >
>
> Yeah, just fscking great. The local rag here had a huge article a while
back
> about a couple of local entrepreneurs (ex-MS guys) that are building a
huge
> campus in India with housing, stores, etc. for their employees. Giving the
> local Indian economy a huge boost with $12,000 per year hi paid technical
> positions for programmers. Meanwhile laying off gawd knows how many people
> here.
>
> JR Jones
> "But look at all the good they are doing! Do the needful!"
>
>

=?Windows-1252?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=

2003-05-22, 3:23 pm

"Consultant" <consultant_mcngp@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uaL7KUJIDHA.2152@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> you gotta love indians! ;-)

Captain John Smith did.

--
Fris "Oh THOSE Indians" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

Keyboard Cowboy

2003-05-22, 3:23 pm

>Captain John Smith did.
>
>
>--=20
>Fris "Oh THOSE Indians" bee=AE MCNGP #13
>
>http://www.mcngp.tk
>The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

Dots, not feathers.

Brian

2003-05-22, 3:23 pm

"billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
news:uSjp8UJIDHA.2152@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> thats why, if i can help it, i buy no goods of chinese or indian origin..
> (or french)
> i rather pay a couple of quid more to keep a real person in a job
Hmm, so a person from India, China or France is not a "real person", huh?

*plonk*

JaR

2003-05-22, 4:23 pm

Ooooh, that must have hurt!

JR Jones
'Call 911, billyw's been cut to the quick!'

Brian wrote in message ...
>"billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
>news:uSjp8UJIDHA.2152@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> thats why, if i can help it, i buy no goods of chinese or indian origin..
>> (or french)
>> i rather pay a couple of quid more to keep a real person in a job
>Hmm, so a person from India, China or France is not a "real person", huh?
>
>*plonk*
>
>

=?Windows-1252?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=

2003-05-22, 4:23 pm

"Brian" <TBone2K@themail.com> wrote in message
news:eDBsN8JIDHA.336@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> "billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
> news:uSjp8UJIDHA.2152@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > thats why, if i can help it, i buy no goods of chinese or indian
origin..
> > (or french)
> > i rather pay a couple of quid more to keep a real person in a job
> Hmm, so a person from India, China or France is not a "real person", huh?
>
> *plonk*

Wewease Bwian!

--
Fris "Pwonk" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

billyw

2003-05-22, 4:23 pm

there's a loss

"Brian" <TBone2K@themail.com> wrote in message
news:eDBsN8JIDHA.336@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> "billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
> news:uSjp8UJIDHA.2152@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > thats why, if i can help it, i buy no goods of chinese or indian
origin..
> > (or french)
> > i rather pay a couple of quid more to keep a real person in a job
> Hmm, so a person from India, China or France is not a "real person", huh?
>
> *plonk*
>
>

billyw

2003-05-22, 4:23 pm

hahahaha

"Frisbee® MCNGP" <bhileman@dasi-software.com> wrote in message
news:O4U6DCKIDHA.1660@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> "Brian" <TBone2K@themail.com> wrote in message
> news:eDBsN8JIDHA.336@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > "billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
> > news:uSjp8UJIDHA.2152@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > thats why, if i can help it, i buy no goods of chinese or indian
> origin..
> > > (or french)
> > > i rather pay a couple of quid more to keep a real person in a job
> > Hmm, so a person from India, China or France is not a "real person",
huh?
> >
> > *plonk*
>
> Wewease Bwian!
>
>
> --
> Fris "Pwonk" bee® MCNGP #13
>
> http://www.mcngp.tk
> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

billyw

2003-05-22, 4:23 pm

boy i'm still realing yet.. thing is the "plonkers" never do, they always
want to see if you are pissed off at them.. allows them to revel in their
own self importance

"JaR" <plente@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:epTRPAKIDHA.3056@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Ooooh, that must have hurt!
>
> JR Jones
> 'Call 911, billyw's been cut to the quick!'
>
> Brian wrote in message ...
> >"billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
> >news:uSjp8UJIDHA.2152@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> >> thats why, if i can help it, i buy no goods of chinese or indian
origin.. [colo
r=darkred]
> >> (or french)
> >> i rather pay a couple of quid more to keep a real person in a job
> >Hmm, so a person from India, China or France is not a "real person", huh?
> >
> >*plonk*
> >
> >
>
>[/color]

=?Windows-1252?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=

2003-05-22, 4:23 pm

"billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
news:u73P8GKIDHA.1908@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> boy i'm still realing yet.. thing is the "plonkers" never do, they always
> want to see if you are pissed off at them.. allows them to revel in their
> own self importance

Sooooo... we plonkers never really plonk you eh? I'm SOOOOO offended by
that remark. I shall now plonk you and let everyone know that I have done
so!

PLONK

--
Fris "MUST.. NOT.. LOOK.. FOR.. REPLY" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

billyw

2003-05-22, 4:23 pm

your still there though aren't u

"Frisbee® MCNGP" <bhileman@dasi-software.com> wrote in message
news:uUWJzJKIDHA.4048@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> "billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
> news:u73P8GKIDHA.1908@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > boy i'm still realing yet.. thing is the "plonkers" never do, they
always
> > want to see if you are pissed off at them.. allows them to revel in
their

> > own self importance
>
> Sooooo... we plonkers never really plonk you eh? I'm SOOOOO offended by
> that remark. I shall now plonk you and let everyone know that I have done
> so!
>
> PLONK
>
>
> --
> Fris "MUST.. NOT.. LOOK.. FOR.. REPLY" bee® MCNGP #13
>
> http://www.mcngp.tk
> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

Keyboard Cowboy

2003-05-22, 5:23 pm

>-----Original Message-----
>"billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
>news:u73P8GKIDHA.1908@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>> boy i'm still realing yet.. thing is the "plonkers"=20
never do, they always
>> want to see if you are pissed off at them.. allows them=20
to revel in their

>> own self importance
>
>Sooooo... we plonkers never really plonk you eh? I'm=20
SOOOOO offended by
>that remark. I shall now plonk you and let everyone know=20
that I have done
>so!
>
>PLONK
>
>
>--=20
>Fris "MUST.. NOT.. LOOK.. FOR.. REPLY" bee=AE MCNGP #13
>
>http://www.mcngp.tk
>The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

<brit accent>
Now go away or I shall Plonk you a second time!
</brit accent>

|{evin

2003-05-22, 5:23 pm

On Thu, 22 May 2003 15:03:43 -0700, "Keyboard Cowboy"
<thekeyboardcowboy@nospam.cybersolutionz.com> wrote:

><brit accent>
>Now go away or I shall Plonk you a second time!
></brit accent>

Imagine a completely quiet room full of people... now imagine one
person suddenly bursting out laughing and repeating the above line
(including the accent).

Guess you had to be here...

fatchronos

2003-05-22, 6:02 pm

>Has anyone else noticed that just about >every post in this group that comes
>from examnotes is pro-braindumps?
>
>Willing to "look hard?"
>
>How about "Study hard?"
>
>"bend the law/morals a bit?"
>
>Isn't that like being a little bit pregnant?
>
>To the original poster: Use that money to >go to college. You'll be glad
>you did.

Dude calm down i never once mentioned BD's. I was actually talking about getting the good stuff (sybex, transcender etc) through questionable means... i mean, i know its still illegal etc but are you going to tell me now that you have never pirated a piece of software in your life?

I hate dumps as much as the next real mcse, but i also hate working on a shoestring budget where all i can afford are the actual tests themselves. i'm just lucky i was bought the MSPress MCSE kit as a present otherwise i would have really been stuffed.

Sorry this post is a bit late off the mark... you get that

billyw

2003-05-22, 7:23 pm

kevin you a brit?

"|{evin" <You@dont.need> wrote in message
news:0siqcvcdtid5fu16hr28oljib
9rn7nkkrr@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 22 May 2003 15:03:43 -0700, "Keyboard Cowboy"
> <thekeyboardcowboy@nospam.cybersolutionz.com> wrote:
>
>
> ><brit accent>
> >Now go away or I shall Plonk you a second time!
> ></brit accent>
>
> Imagine a completely quiet room full of people... now imagine one
> person suddenly bursting out laughing and repeating the above line
> (including the accent).
>
> Guess you had to be here...
>

|{evin

2003-05-22, 7:23 pm

On Thu, 22 May 2003 23:22:29 +0100, "billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote:

>kevin you a brit?
>
Not bloody likely!

billyw

2003-05-22, 7:23 pm

thank god for that,,
dont think there is room for another kevin here

"|{evin" <You@dont.need> wrote in message
news:m8lqcv0s2alasn8n620thk93r
5ten06m00@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 22 May 2003 23:22:29 +0100, "billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote:
>
> >kevin you a brit?
> >
> Not bloody likely!
>

JaR

2003-05-22, 7:23 pm

Frisbee® MCNGP wrote in message ...
>
>Wewease Bwian!
>
>
>--
>Fris "Pwonk" bee® MCNGP #13
>
>http://www.mcngp.tk
>The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

And his fwiend, Biggus Dickus!

J.R. Jones
MCSA A+ Net+

'And just what's so funny???'

Laura A. Robinson

2003-05-22, 9:23 pm

circa Thu, 22 May 2003 13:03:33 -0400, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Adam Killian (vitki@bonius.com)
said,
> The IT job market is currently in the toilet. I wouldn't bank on more
> than $30-$50k for an entry-level gig.
>

I'd even say getting a $50K entry level gig is highly unlikely in the
current market.

Laura
--
Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

Damaeus

2003-05-23, 1:23 am

In news:microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, "JaR" <plente@softhome.net> posted
on Thu, 22 May 2003 11:34:55 -0700:

> Cold shot of reality time, bud.
>
> There are MCSE's out there with years of experience that can't find
> jobs right now. I went through the program, so far have my MCSA,
> and have been trying to find an IT/IS gig for over a year now.
> About the only openings are for Helldesk spots, and even those are
> drying up. Local company here just laid off 300 folks 'cause
> Microshaft has "expanded it's international operations base".

<sigh>

That's depressing news. Seems like every time I decide on a profession, I'm
told that the job market sucks. What profession is out there which doesn't
suck? Ironically, it's probably prostitution. What about webmastering?
What about computer programmers?

The way things are going, it looks like they're trying to get everyone to
work in other countries, and we'll all end up living in a whole country of
nothing but amusement, restaurants, and fast food.

> In other words, shipped the jobs to Bangalore, India. I have been
> using computers for years, and have taken care of the P.O.S. NT4 /
> Citrix system here at work since they put it in. Nevertheless, the
> only gigs I have been offered are entry level helldesk or minimum
> wage, part-time repair gigs at places like CompUSA. If you don't
> have five years experience, college degree *and* MCSE, you ain't
> gonna make anywhere close to that $100K.

I wasn't expecting to start out at 100k. I was expecting to make it to that
point over a period of time. I would be happy with $36,000 - $40,000.

Damaeus

billyw

2003-05-23, 3:23 am

i would say having your own business will allow you to make the money u
want. will also give you a veneer of control, but it is only a veneer

"Damaeus" <no-mail@hotmail.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:849rcvget7v5q1in4p4fojefc
41equsvv3@4ax.com...
> In news:microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, "JaR" <plente@softhome.net>
posted
> on Thu, 22 May 2003 11:34:55 -0700:
>
> > Cold shot of reality time, bud.
> >
> > There are MCSE's out there with years of experience that can't find
> > jobs right now. I went through the program, so far have my MCSA,
> > and have been trying to find an IT/IS gig for over a year now.
> > About the only openings are for Helldesk spots, and even those are
> > drying up. Local company here just laid off 300 folks 'cause
> > Microshaft has "expanded it's international operations base".
>
> <sigh>
>
> That's depressing news. Seems like every time I decide on a profession,
I'm
> told that the job market sucks. What profession is out there which
doesn't
> suck? Ironically, it's probably prostitution. What about webmastering?
> What about computer programmers?
>
> The way things are going, it looks like they're trying to get everyone to
> work in other countries, and we'll all end up living in a whole country of
> nothing but amusement, restaurants, and fast food.
>
> > In other words, shipped the jobs to Bangalore, India. I have been
> > using computers for years, and have taken care of the P.O.S. NT4 /
> > Citrix system here at work since they put it in. Nevertheless, the
> > only gigs I have been offered are entry level helldesk or minimum
> > wage, part-time repair gigs at places like CompUSA. If you don't
> > have five years experience, college degree *and* MCSE, you ain't
> > gonna make anywhere close to that $100K.
>
> I wasn't expecting to start out at 100k. I was expecting to make it to
that
> point over a period of time. I would be happy with $36,000 - $40,000.
>
> Damaeus

Adam Killian

2003-05-23, 7:23 am

Damaeus wrote:
> <sigh>
>
> That's depressing news. Seems like every time I decide on a profession, I'm
> told that the job market sucks. What profession is out there which doesn't
> suck? Ironically, it's probably prostitution. What about webmastering?
> What about computer programmers?

The profession that doesn't suck is whatever you would be doing, even if
you didn't have to worry about money. (I don't mean lounging on your
yacht and having bikini-clad servants feeding you grapes, either.)

You probably have a hobby or interest that can be made into a career.
For me, it's computers. Even if I weren't working in the field, I'd
still be poking around with networks and stuff in my spare time, because
it's neat. I count myself very fortunate to actually get payed to
explore my hobbies.

You might want to pick up a copy of "What Color is Your Parachute," or a
similar book. They help you sort out what type of thing you'd be good
at, and more importantly, enjoy.

Adam

=?Windows-1252?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=

2003-05-23, 8:23 am

"billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
news:eAtuMZKIDHA.1788@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> your still there though aren't u

No, I'm not! Really I'm not! I can't see you at all! I plonked you!

--
Fris "See no evil" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

=?iso-8859-1?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=

2003-05-23, 8:23 am

"|{evin" <You@dont.need> wrote in message
news:0siqcvcdtid5fu16hr28oljib
9rn7nkkrr@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 22 May 2003 15:03:43 -0700, "Keyboard Cowboy"
> <thekeyboardcowboy@nospam.cybersolutionz.com> wrote:
>
> ><brit accent>
> >Now go away or I shall Plonk you a second time!
> ></brit accent>
>
> Imagine a completely quiet room full of people... now imagine one
> person suddenly bursting out laughing and repeating the above line
> (including the accent).
>
> Guess you had to be here...

I hope you used a French accent, not a British accent.

--
Fris "... a second time-a" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

=?Windows-1252?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=

2003-05-23, 8:23 am

"fatchronos" <fatchronos.nuvga@mail.examnotes.net> wrote in message
news:fatchronos.nuvga@mail.examnotes.net...
> Dude calm down i never once mentioned BD's. I was actually talking
> about getting the good stuff (sybex, transcender etc) through
> questionable means... i mean, i know its still illegal etc but are you
> going to tell me now that you have never pirated a piece of software in
> your life?

That would be incredibily hippocritical of me if I did. I make my living by
developing software. No, I don't pirate software, nor do I encourage others
to.

> I hate dumps as much as the next real mcse, but i also hate working on
> a shoestring budget where all i can afford are the actual tests
> themselves. i'm just lucky i was bought the MSPress MCSE kit as a
> present otherwise i would have really been stuffed.

I got some of my study books as a Father's Day gift. I understand the
shoestring stuff. I pretty much live on the same shoestring now that I did
over twenty years ago as a college student. Try to find some ethical ways
to study, like a library. Or have more birthdays.

> Sorry this post is a bit late off the mark... you get that

No problem. At least you don't condone braindumps, but please don't
encourage people to take even more money out of my pocket by pirating
software, and likewise raising the price of said software since the
developers have to compensate for piracy, much like retailers compensate for
shoplifters.

--
Fris "Buddy, can you spare a byte?" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

=?iso-8859-1?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=

2003-05-23, 8:23 am

"Damaeus" <no-mail@hotmail.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:849rcvget7v5q1in4p4fojefc
41equsvv3@4ax.com...
>
> That's depressing news. Seems like every time I decide on a profession,
I'm
> told that the job market sucks. What profession is out there which
doesn't
> suck? Ironically, it's probably prostitution. What about webmastering?
> What about computer programmers?

We're struggling, just like everyone else in IT.

--
Fris "I wanted to be... A LUMBERJACK" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

billyw

2003-05-23, 9:23 am

a converse argument could be leveled that if developers pitched their
software at a more "reasonable" price people would be less inclined to
pirate.
I think it's good what's happening right now, especially withthe music
business.. For so long they had the market sewn up, but now they are having
to think. Could be quite interesting where it goes. But no doubt the riaa
will continue to use questionable tactics. 2 wrongs etc

"Frisbee® MCNGP" <bhileman@dasi-software.com> wrote in message
news:%23HtuKkSIDHA.1720@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> "fatchronos" <fatchronos.nuvga@mail.examnotes.net> wrote in message
> news:fatchronos.nuvga@mail.examnotes.net...
> > Dude calm down i never once mentioned BD's. I was actually talking
> > about getting the good stuff (sybex, transcender etc) through
> > questionable means... i mean, i know its still illegal etc but are you
> > going to tell me now that you have never pirated a piece of software in
> > your life?
>
> That would be incredibily hippocritical of me if I did. I make my living
by
> developing software. No, I don't pirate software, nor do I encourage
others
> to.
>
> > I hate dumps as much as the next real mcse, but i also hate working on
> > a shoestring budget where all i can afford are the actual tests
> > themselves. i'm just lucky i was bought the MSPress MCSE kit as a
> > present otherwise i would have really been stuffed.
>
> I got some of my study books as a Father's Day gift. I understand the
> shoestring stuff. I pretty much live on the same shoestring now that I
did
> over twenty years ago as a college student. Try to find some ethical ways
> to study, like a library. Or have more birthdays.
>
> > Sorry this post is a bit late off the mark... you get that
>
> No problem. At least you don't condone braindumps, but please don't
> encourage people to take even more money out of my pocket by pirating
> software, and likewise raising the price of said software since the
> developers have to compensate for piracy, much like retailers compensate
for
> shoplifters.
>
>
> --
> Fris "Buddy, can you spare a byte?" bee® MCNGP #13
>
> http://www.mcngp.tk
> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

billyw

2003-05-23, 9:23 am

see told you.. the plonker always comes back to the scene of the plonk. to
revel in his plonking

"Frisbee® MCNGP" <bhileman@dasi-software.com> wrote in message
news:O6D3yfSIDHA.2108@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> "billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
> news:eAtuMZKIDHA.1788@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > your still there though aren't u
>
> No, I'm not! Really I'm not! I can't see you at all! I plonked you!
>
>
> --
> Fris "See no evil" bee® MCNGP #13
>
> http://www.mcngp.tk
> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

billyw

2003-05-23, 9:23 am

he's a lumberjack and he's ok

"Frisbee® MCNGP" <bhileman@dasi-software.com> wrote in message
news:ee3sZmSIDHA.1656@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> "Damaeus" <no-mail@hotmail.invalid.net> wrote in message
> news:849rcvget7v5q1in4p4fojefc
41equsvv3@4ax.com...
> >
> > That's depressing news. Seems like every time I decide on a profession,
> I'm
> > told that the job market sucks. What profession is out there which
> doesn't
> > suck? Ironically, it's probably prostitution. What about webmastering?
> > What about computer programmers?
>
> We're struggling, just like everyone else in IT.
>
> --
> Fris "I wanted to be... A LUMBERJACK" bee® MCNGP #13
>
> http://www.mcngp.tk
> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

=?Windows-1252?Q?Frisbee=AE_MCNGP?=

2003-05-23, 9:23 am

"billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
news:OYiPE8SIDHA.1792@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> he's a lumberjack and he's ok

I sleep all night

--
Fris "And I post all day" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

Kendal Emery

2003-05-23, 10:23 am

And he works all day......

--
Kendal R. Emery, MCSE, Network+, A+, MCNGP #19
Systems Administrator
Coordinated Home Care
kemery@coordinatedhomec
are.me.com
remove me to email to me
"Frisbee® MCNGP" <bhileman@dasi-software.com> wrote in message
news:eB1CbKTIDHA.2236@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> "billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
> news:OYiPE8SIDHA.1792@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > he's a lumberjack and he's ok
>
> I sleep all night
>
>
> --
> Fris "And I post all day" bee® MCNGP #13
>
> http://www.mcngp.tk
> The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
>

billyw

2003-05-23, 10:23 am

He cuts down trees. He eats his lunch.
"Kendal Emery" <kemery@coordinatedhomecare.me.com> wrote in message
news:OLIa3rTIDHA.2144@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> And he works all day......
>
> --
> Kendal R. Emery, MCSE, Network+, A+, MCNGP #19
> Systems Administrator
> Coordinated Home Care
> kemery@coordinatedhomec
are.me.com
> remove me to email to me
> "Frisbee® MCNGP" <bhileman@dasi-software.com> wrote in message
> news:eB1CbKTIDHA.2236@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > "billyw" <b@brainless.net> wrote in message
> > news:OYiPE8SIDHA.1792@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > he's a lumberjack and he's ok
> >
> > I sleep all night
> >
> >
> > --
> > Fris "And I post all day" bee® MCNGP #13
> >
> > http://www.mcngp.tk
> > The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
> >
>
>

Damaeus

2003-05-23, 11:23 am

In news:microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Adam Killian <vitki@bonius.com>
posted on Fri, 23 May 2003 07:42:10 -0400:

> Damaeus wrote:
> > <sigh>
> >
> > That's depressing news. Seems like every time I decide on a profession, I'm
> > told that the job market sucks. What profession is out there which doesn't
> > suck? Ironically, it's probably prostitution. What about webmastering?
> > What about computer programmers?
>
> The profession that doesn't suck is whatever you would be doing, even if
> you didn't have to worry about money. (I don't mean lounging on your
> yacht and having bikini-clad servants feeding you grapes, either.)

Well, it sounds like even though I enjoy computers and networks, I may still
be worrying about money if the pay isn't that good. To live alone and to
have the kind of lifestyle I'm looking for, I'd need to make about $35k per
year at least. And I'm not looking for fine china, crystal wine goblets,
gold trim on my toilet or anything like that. I'd like just to live alone,
even in an apartment; drive a car that's new and dependable, but nothing
extra fancy (something like a Toyota Camry or Mercury Sable is great); dine
out a lot (3-5 times per week) at typical restaurants like Applebee's,
Chili's, Bennigan's, TGI Friday's, etc...; and make enough money to have my
broadband connection, cell phone, computer upgrades from time to time, and
occasional car repairs when needed. That's it! I can do that on 35k per
year, I think, though I could definitely do it on 45k per year and save a
lot to boot.

Now my problem is that I was all hyped up by the career counselor at the
college talking about how the computer networking field is growing, and
after talking to people here, I feel like I may go through all these courses
and then come out working as a pizza delivery driver for another three years
before I can find a job at a company doing what I paid $10,000 to learn.
And by the time three years have passed, I'm sure other certifications will
come out that I'll need to remain competitive.

Now I wonder why some of these people aren't finding jobs. Are they glued
to the area they currently live in where computer jobs are scarce? Was
there a job offer in Phoenix, AZ which they turned down because they didn't
want to live in the desert? Were they not willing to move for a meager $45k
salary? I may be UNABLE to move, but I'd certainly be willing to move. I'd
rather not live in New York or California, but I'd live just about anywhere
else. I prefer the Pacific Northwest. Maybe Microsoft would have me.

> You probably have a hobby or interest that can be made into a career.

The only hobby I have right now is with computers. I love building them,
but I've only built two. I can't afford to just buy parts and build
computers, and I don't have the space for that right now, anyway. My living
quarters consist of a bedroom and it's pretty crowded in here at that.

> For me, it's computers. Even if I weren't working in the field, I'd
> still be poking around with networks and stuff in my spare time, because
> it's neat. I count myself very fortunate to actually get payed to
> explore my hobbies.

Well, I feel the same way. Computers have been my hobby since 1984 and I
love it. I've just decided to make a career out of it. Whether I become a
network admin/engineer or not, I'll still build my own computers, network
them when I have more than one, troubleshoot them myself and replace parts
as necessary, etc.... It would just be nice to get paid doing what I love.
Making $100k per year might be a pipe dream, but I figure those who have a
solid background in computers as I do, dating back to 1984, would have a
little bit better shot and landing not only jobs, but promotions when they
come around.

I also enjoy web page design, though I'm not sure if I enjoy it more or less
than building and configuring a computer. Do I like configuring Linux? No.
There are too many retarded configurations that could be taken care of
automatically or with a GUI. Over time, Linux might become more fun. But
part of my distaste for Linux stems from my lack of familiarity with it. I
learned quite a bit about it when I had a Linux partition on my computer a
while back, but I only have a 30-gig hard drive and I was desperately short
on space for Windows so I deleted Linux for the time being.

> You might want to pick up a copy of "What Color is Your Parachute," or a
> similar book. They help you sort out what type of thing you'd be good
> at, and more importantly, enjoy.

Brian

2003-05-23, 12:23 pm

Heh, I just needed to encourage you guys a bit, didn't I?

(puts fingers back in ears)
Lalala I'm not listening!

Laura A. Robinson

2003-05-23, 1:23 pm

circa Thu, 22 May 2003 19:02:39 -0400, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, fatchronos
(fatchronos.nuvga@mail.examnotes.net) said,
>
> Dude calm down i never once mentioned BD's. I was actually talking
> about getting the good stuff (sybex, transcender etc) through
> questionable means... i mean, i know its still illegal etc but are you
> going to tell me now that you have never pirated a piece of software in
> your life?
>
> I hate dumps as much as the next real mcse, but i also hate working on
> a shoestring budget where all i can afford are the actual tests
> themselves. i'm just lucky i was bought the MSPress MCSE kit as a
> present otherwise i would have really been stuffed.
>
Evaluation software exists for a lot of reasons, one of which is to
allow people to learn about the software without having to purchase a
full copy. If I need software longer than the evaluation period, I
buy it. As Fris said, piracy is just like shoplifting.

Laura
--
Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

Laura A. Robinson

2003-05-23, 1:23 pm

circa Fri, 23 May 2003 14:25:56 +0100, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, billyw (b@brainless.net) said,
> a converse argument could be leveled that if developers pitched their
> software at a more "reasonable" price people would be less inclined to
> pirate.
>
Some of the best software I have cost me less than $50, and often
less than $20.

Laura
--
Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

billyw

2003-05-23, 4:23 pm

yea but porn s/ware doesn't count

"Laura A. Robinson" < firstinitiallastname@technolog
ist.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.193825a98d1d37cd98a743@msnews.microsoft.com...
> circa Fri, 23 May 2003 14:25:56 +0100, in
> microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, billyw (b@brainless.net) said,
> > a converse argument could be leveled that if developers pitched their
> > software at a more "reasonable" price people would be less inclined to
> > pirate.
> >
> Some of the best software I have cost me less than $50, and often
> less than $20.
>
> Laura
> --
> Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
> solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
> tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

Laura A. Robinson

2003-05-23, 5:23 pm

circa Fri, 23 May 2003 21:28:15 +0100, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, billyw (b@brainless.net) said,
> yea but porn s/ware doesn't count
>
I don't have pornware.

Laura
--
Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

Dan

2003-06-01, 9:23 pm

"Laura A. Robinson" < firstinitiallastname@technolog
ist.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1938258b381b45e498a742@msnews.microsoft.com:

> circa Thu, 22 May 2003 19:02:39 -0400, in
> microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, fatchronos
> (fatchronos.nuvga@mail.examnotes.net) said,
>>
>> Dude calm down i never once mentioned BD's. I was actually talking
>> about getting the good stuff (sybex, transcender etc) through
>> questionable means... i mean, i know its still illegal etc but are
>> you going to tell me now that you have never pirated a piece of
>> software in your life?
>>
>> I hate dumps as much as the next real mcse, but i also hate working
>> on a shoestring budget where all i can afford are the actual tests
>> themselves. i'm just lucky i was bought the MSPress MCSE kit as a
>> present otherwise i would have really been stuffed.
>>
> Evaluation software exists for a lot of reasons, one of which is to
> allow people to learn about the software without having to purchase a
> full copy. If I need software longer than the evaluation period, I
> buy it. As Fris said, piracy is just like shoplifting.
>
> Laura

Using pirated software is common, but everyone like to stick it to the
software giants. Certification is tough enough but I guess if you don't
dump and you become compentant at what you intend, how you did it is
your concern.

fatchronos

2003-06-02, 1:28 am

>Evaluation software exists for a lot of reasons, one of which is to
>allow people to learn about the software without having to purchase a
>full copy. If I need software longer than the evaluation period, I
>buy it. As Fris said, piracy is just like shoplifting.

So once again it comes down to the old adage - you have to have money to make money. No wonder there are so many unemployed/homeless around.

Frisbee - i do agree with you, and i understand that being a programmer for a living hinges on people buying your software rather than pirating it, and although i agree with the argument that if software was cheaper i would be more inclined to buy it, i'm not going to argue it. What i will say though, is that human beings are falliable (spelling?). We are not perfect. everyone has done something wrong in their life, whether it was stealing a car or simply hurting someones feelings. While we can obviously be held accountable for most of our mistakes, we can't be held accountable for being human, and being human involves being imperfect...

but i digress. I guess my point is... i dont know. sigh. i guess i better close my mouth, before i put my foot in it again

Laura A. Robinson

2003-06-02, 9:23 pm

circa Mon, 2 Jun 2003 02:28:46 -0400, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, fatchronos
(fatchronos.odxka@mail.examnotes.net) said,
> falliable (spelling?)
>
fallible.

:-)
--
Any condescension detected in this post is fully unintentional and is
solely the perception of the reader. If I think you're an idiot, I'll
tell you that. You won't need to intuit it.

jbmjr1

2003-08-01, 3:23 pm

To all those people who are catching those radio ads for Microsoft
certs. Take from someone who got sucked into the program. Save your
money and get the training on your own. What I learned from my class
experience is that you can get the same info from books you can purchase
online for a fraction of the cost as well as go to various websites to
get the exam questions and answers. Websites like cramsessions.com or
braindumps.com. These websites were shared with the class by the
instructor that I paid to teach me W2K Pro. I was instructed to study
the questions and answers at these webs sites to prepeare for the
Microsoft exams. Guess what the questions were the same word for word.

I should of saved my money.

Hope you save yours.

--
Posted via http://dbforums.com

Consultant

2003-08-01, 3:23 pm

can you provide the name of the center you went to, and possibly the
instructor. i'm sure ms would be interested in his curriculum

"jbmjr1" <member34784@dbforums.com> wrote in message
news:3176136.1059761589@dbforums.com...
>
> To all those people who are catching those radio ads for Microsoft
> certs. Take from someone who got sucked into the program. Save your
> money and get the training on your own. What I learned from my class
> experience is that you can get the same info from books you can purchase
> online for a fraction of the cost as well as go to various websites to
> get the exam questions and answers. Websites like cramsessions.com or
> braindumps.com. These websites were shared with the class by the
> instructor that I paid to teach me W2K Pro. I was instructed to study
> the questions and answers at these webs sites to prepeare for the
> Microsoft exams. Guess what the questions were the same word for word.
>
> I should of saved my money.
>
> Hope you save yours.
>
> --
> Posted via http://dbforums.com

Ken Briscoe

2003-08-01, 3:24 pm

Do we have to go through this every time some newbie discovers the internet?
Braindumps = bad.

"jbmjr1" <member34784@dbforums.com> wrote in message
news:3176136.1059761589@dbforums.com...
>
> To all those people who are catching those radio ads for Microsoft
> certs. Take from someone who got sucked into the program. Save your
> money and get the training on your own. What I learned from my class
> experience is that you can get the same info from books you can purchase
> online for a fraction of the cost as well as go to various websites to
> get the exam questions and answers. Websites like cramsessions.com or
> braindumps.com. These websites were shared with the class by the
> instructor that I paid to teach me W2K Pro. I was instructed to study
> the questions and answers at these webs sites to prepeare for the
> Microsoft exams. Guess what the questions were the same word for word.
>
> I should of saved my money.
>
> Hope you save yours.
>
> --
> Posted via http://dbforums.com

Consultant

2003-08-01, 3:24 pm

briscoe county jr.

"Ken Briscoe" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:ug5F56FWDHA.2284@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Do we have to go through this every time some newbie discovers the
internet?
> braindumps = bad.
>
>
> "jbmjr1" <member34784@dbforums.com> wrote in message
> news:3176136.1059761589@dbforums.com...
> >
> > To all those people who are catching those radio ads for Microsoft
> > certs. Take from someone who got sucked into the program. Save your
> > money and get the training on your own. What I learned from my class
> > experience is that you can get the same info from books you can purchase
> > online for a fraction of the cost as well as go to various websites to
> > get the exam questions and answers. Websites like cramsessions.com or
> > braindumps.com. These websites were shared with the class by the
> > instructor that I paid to teach me W2K Pro. I was instructed to study
> > the questions and answers at these webs sites to prepeare for the
> > Microsoft exams. Guess what the questions were the same word for word.
> >
> > I should of saved my money.
> >
> > Hope you save yours.
> >
> > --
> > Posted via http://dbforums.com
>
>

Ken Briscoe

2003-08-01, 5:23 pm

> briscoe county jr.

That's what almost all my high school teachers called me. It was a good
nickname. It was a bad show.

KB

Jtyc

2003-08-01, 5:23 pm

> It was a bad show.

Oh how dare you! Bruce Campell is the shizzle.

Consultant

2003-08-01, 5:23 pm

i cannot repeat what they called me

"Ken Briscoe" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:OiEa8xGWDHA.2032@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> > briscoe county jr.
>
> That's what almost all my high school teachers called me. It was a good
> nickname. It was a bad show.
>
> KB
>
>

David Maggard

2003-08-02, 10:23 am

Poor fool, let the merciless beating begin!

"jbmjr1" <member34784@dbforums.com> wrote in message
news:3176136.1059761589@dbforums.com...
>
> To all those people who are catching those radio ads for Microsoft
> certs. Take from someone wh