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70-210 Passing score. Still waiting for a real answer!
|
|
| Welshdragon 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
needed a 520 to pass.
Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a 52% to
pass or are all these numbers bunk?
Thanks,
Frank
welshdragon@ameritech.net
AAS Degree, A+, Net+
| |
| Valentino 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| I needed 540 last week.
Valentino
"Welshdragon" <welshdragon@ameritech.net> schreef in bericht
news:nfiF8.15257$d7.4945311@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
> A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
> needed a 520 to pass.
>
> Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a 52%
to
> pass or are all these numbers bunk?
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
> welshdragon@ameritech.net
>
> AAS Degree, A+, Net+
>
>
>
>
>
| |
| JayDubb 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| I used to be concerned with minimum passing scores, but experience taught me
they are meaningless. Why?
Microsoft varies the passing score according to the level of difficulty of the
questions. Assume one edition of an exam has a certain difficulty level, with a
passing score of, say..., 680. If the next version of the exam is released with
a slightly higher level of difficulty, the passing score might be lowered to
something like 620.
Suppose we could "quantify" your knowledge into a numeric figure-- for fun,
let's call it your Microsoft IQ (MIQ). Assume Microsoft as 2 versions of the
70-2xx exam, with passing scores of 620 and 680 for the harder and easier
versions, respectively.
On the harder exam your MIQ might be enough for a 675 score. On the easier
version, your MIQ might be enough to score 740. Doesn't matter which exam you
take, because you have enough knowledge to pass.
Knowing the minimum passing score is totally MEANINGLESS because you DO NOT have
more "room to screw up" on a 620 minimum-score exam, versus a 700 minumum-score
exam. When passing score requirements go down, all that means is Microsoft has
reduced their expectations as a result of harder questions. The level of
knowledge you must have to pass the exam remains relatively constant.
Does that clear it up?
Welshdragon wrote:
>
> A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
> needed a 520 to pass.
>
> Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a 52% to
> pass or are all these numbers bunk?
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
> welshdragon@ameritech.net
>
> AAS Degree, A+, Net+
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| "JayDubb" <jay@dubb.nowhere.org> wrote in message
> Knowing the minimum passing score is totally MEANINGLESS because you DO
NOT have
> more "room to screw up" on a 620 minimum-score exam, versus a 700
minumum-score
> exam. When passing score requirements go down, all that means is
Microsoft has
> reduced their expectations as a result of harder questions. The level of
> knowledge you must have to pass the exam remains relatively constant.
Mmmm. True but as the exams go on they do get harder and the minimum scores
do go up (755 ouch). So each one is progressively slightly more difficult
than the last. I would agree with Jay that worrying about minimums is
unwise. You shouldn't be going into exams that cost that much thinking you
might fail. The one thing scores ARE good for is telling you afterwards if
you should have studied harder and to do so for the next one.
| |
| Welshdragon 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| That part I know. What is it out of, 1000???? 600??? 800????
What is the percentage needed to pass? Doesn't anyone know?
When I take the test, I like to take score.
Thanks
"Valentino" <pascal.kisiel@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:O2pF8.13422$1l7.3564937307@hebe.telenet-ops.be...
> I needed 540 last week.
>
>
>
> Valentino
>
>
> "Welshdragon" <welshdragon@ameritech.net> schreef in bericht
> news:nfiF8.15257$d7.4945311@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
> > A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
> > needed a 520 to pass.
> >
> > Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a 52%
> to
> > pass or are all these numbers bunk?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Frank
> > welshdragon@ameritech.net
> >
> > AAS Degree, A+, Net+
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
| |
| Welshdragon 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| In theory this may be true. I have talked to several people at my work and
their MS papers show 540 as passing. It doesn't show what it is based on.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM!
If I were an employer and someone showed me a passing score of 560, I would
look down on that person who passed! I would guess that the test was based
out of 1000 and that the employee only got 56% correct.
But if I, an employer, new that the test was based out of say a possible
700, then I would be very excited for the person who passed! In this
scenerio, the employee would have gotten an 80%.
So what good is MS telling you the score? It is meaningless unless you know
what it is based on! And my employer wants to see the score!!!!!! So the
nagging question still remains- what percentage is passing? 65%, 54%, or
like the Net+ 82%??? At least Comptia tells you what you need to pass!
YES, IT IS IMPORTANT!
"70-224" <Iggy@the.pop> wrote in message
news:iJtF8.177577$pT2.26951@news.easynews.com...
> "JayDubb" <jay@dubb.nowhere.org> wrote in message
> > Knowing the minimum passing score is totally MEANINGLESS because you DO
> NOT have
> > more "room to screw up" on a 620 minimum-score exam, versus a 700
> minumum-score
> > exam. When passing score requirements go down, all that means is
> Microsoft has
> > reduced their expectations as a result of harder questions. The level
of
> > knowledge you must have to pass the exam remains relatively constant.
>
> Mmmm. True but as the exams go on they do get harder and the minimum
scores
> do go up (755 ouch). So each one is progressively slightly more difficult
> than the last. I would agree with Jay that worrying about minimums is
> unwise. You shouldn't be going into exams that cost that much thinking you
> might fail. The one thing scores ARE good for is telling you afterwards if
> you should have studied harder and to do so for the next one.
>
>
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
|
"Welshdragon" <welshdragon@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> If I were an employer and someone showed me a passing score of 560, I
would
> look down on that person who passed! I would guess that the test was based
> out of 1000 and that the employee only got 56% correct.
And it is out of 1000 (I know it's not out of 900 because I've scored more
than that). But an employer who knows about the MCSE will be more interested
in 216 and the electives you do. Most places won't ask you your score for
one rather big reason and that's because they can't verify it. The M$
website only shows pass/fail as does the Vue site (and for a while they
stopped giving out scores at exam time too) and so the only proof of score
is that very easily fakeable print out.
> So what good is MS telling you the score? It is meaningless unless you
know
> what it is based on! And my employer wants to see the score!!!!!! So the
> nagging question still remains- what percentage is passing? 65%, 54%, or
> like the Net+ 82%??? At least Comptia tells you what you need to pass!
It's interesting you should bring up CompTIA because if anything their
adaptive marks mean less than M$'s marks. I have read quite a few people in
the a+ newsgroups reporting finishing their exams on the dot of 20 questions
(the best you can do IIRC) and yet getting lower marks than people going
through more questions.
| |
| SlipStream 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| when i took the test, it was 540/1000...(got an 840..not too shabby)
--
-ss
A+, MCP, MCSA
"70-224" <Iggy@the.pop> wrote in message
news:wHuF8.477978$r_2.4442310@news.easynews.com...
>
> "Welshdragon" <welshdragon@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> > If I were an employer and someone showed me a passing score of 560, I
> would
> > look down on that person who passed! I would guess that the test was
based
> > out of 1000 and that the employee only got 56% correct.
>
> And it is out of 1000 (I know it's not out of 900 because I've scored more
> than that). But an employer who knows about the MCSE will be more
interested
> in 216 and the electives you do. Most places won't ask you your score for
> one rather big reason and that's because they can't verify it. The M$
> website only shows pass/fail as does the Vue site (and for a while they
> stopped giving out scores at exam time too) and so the only proof of score
> is that very easily fakeable print out.
>
> > So what good is MS telling you the score? It is meaningless unless you
> know
> > what it is based on! And my employer wants to see the score!!!!!! So the
> > nagging question still remains- what percentage is passing? 65%, 54%, or
> > like the Net+ 82%??? At least Comptia tells you what you need to pass!
>
> It's interesting you should bring up CompTIA because if anything their
> adaptive marks mean less than M$'s marks. I have read quite a few people
in
> the a+ newsgroups reporting finishing their exams on the dot of 20
questions
> (the best you can do IIRC) and yet getting lower marks than people going
> through more questions.
>
>
>
| |
| Dustin 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| The point of 52% is also something to be addressed. This doesn't mean
you need to get 52% of the questions, but 52% of the points. Not
every question is weighed the same. Some questions may be 30 point,
some may be 45, some may be 20. Don't worry about it though, study
hard, know your stuff, and study hard.
Dustin
Network+, MCP(x3)
| |
| S. O'Brien 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| try the CCNA exam... pass is 849 :P
"Welshdragon" <welshdragon@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:xjtF8.15293$d7.4995881@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
> In theory this may be true. I have talked to several people at my work and
> their MS papers show 540 as passing. It doesn't show what it is based on.
> THAT IS THE PROBLEM!
>
> If I were an employer and someone showed me a passing score of 560, I
would
> look down on that person who passed! I would guess that the test was based
> out of 1000 and that the employee only got 56% correct.
>
> But if I, an employer, new that the test was based out of say a possible
> 700, then I would be very excited for the person who passed! In this
> scenerio, the employee would have gotten an 80%.
>
> So what good is MS telling you the score? It is meaningless unless you
know
> what it is based on! And my employer wants to see the score!!!!!! So the
> nagging question still remains- what percentage is passing? 65%, 54%, or
> like the Net+ 82%??? At least Comptia tells you what you need to pass!
>
> YES, IT IS IMPORTANT!
>
>
>
>
> "70-224" <Iggy@the.pop> wrote in message
> news:iJtF8.177577$pT2.26951@news.easynews.com...
> > "JayDubb" <jay@dubb.nowhere.org> wrote in message
> > > Knowing the minimum passing score is totally MEANINGLESS because you
DO
> > NOT have
> > > more "room to screw up" on a 620 minimum-score exam, versus a 700
> > minumum-score
> > > exam. When passing score requirements go down, all that means is
> > Microsoft has
> > > reduced their expectations as a result of harder questions. The level
> of
> > > knowledge you must have to pass the exam remains relatively constant.
> >
> > Mmmm. True but as the exams go on they do get harder and the minimum
> scores
> > do go up (755 ouch). So each one is progressively slightly more
difficult
> > than the last. I would agree with Jay that worrying about minimums is
> > unwise. You shouldn't be going into exams that cost that much thinking
you
> > might fail. The one thing scores ARE good for is telling you afterwards
if
> > you should have studied harder and to do so for the next one.
> >
> >
>
>
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| circa Sat, 18 May 2002 14:40:14 GMT, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, 70-224 (Iggy@the.pop) said,
>
> Mmmm. True but as the exams go on they do get harder and the minimum scores
> do go up (755 ouch). So each one is progressively slightly more difficult
> than the last. I would agree with Jay that worrying about minimums is
> unwise. You shouldn't be going into exams that cost that much thinking you
> might fail. The one thing scores ARE good for is telling you afterwards if
> you should have studied harder and to do so for the next one.
>
Actually, that's not so. JayDubb's explanation was right on the mark.
If an exam gets "more difficult", the passing score is lowered, not
raised.
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| circa Sat, 18 May 2002 14:12:45 GMT, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Welshdragon
(welshdragon@ameritech.net) said,
> So what good is MS telling you the score? It is meaningless unless you know
> what it is based on! And my employer wants to see the score!!!!!! So the
> nagging question still remains- what percentage is passing? 65%, 54%, or
> like the Net+ 82%??? At least Comptia tells you what you need to pass!
>
> YES, IT IS IMPORTANT!
>
>
No, it isn't. If your employer is concerned with your score, you
should refer your employer to http://www.microsoft.com/traincert and
have him/her read up on how Microsoft exams work.
Or, more specifically:
http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/...ies/examdev.asp
and
http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/.../procedures.asp
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
| Ben Smith [MS] 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| In article <nfiF8.15257$d7.4945311@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
welshdragon@ameritech.net says...
> A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
> needed a 520 to pass.
>
> Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a 52% to
> pass or are all these numbers bunk?
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
> welshdragon@ameritech.net
>
> AAS Degree, A+, Net+
>
>
>
>
>
The exams are designed to be pass/fail. The actual score means little,
unless of course you get them all correct.
--
Ben Smith
Microsoft Training and Certification
Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
| |
| Ben Smith [MS] 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| In article <nfiF8.15257$d7.4945311@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
welshdragon@ameritech.net says...
> A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
> needed a 520 to pass.
>
> Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a 52% to
> pass or are all these numbers bunk?
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
> welshdragon@ameritech.net
>
> AAS Degree, A+, Net+
>
>
>
>
>
Exams are pass/fail. 520 out of 1000 does not necessarily equate to
52%. Questions may be weighted differently and some may not be counted
in the final score. The only number that is meaningful would be if you
got them all correct.
--
Ben Smith
Microsoft Training and Certification
Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
| |
| S. O'Brien 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| well said Ben
Sue
"Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1750689b32ba74169898f6@msnews.microsoft.com...
> In article <nfiF8.15257$d7.4945311@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
> welshdragon@ameritech.net says...
> > A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
> > needed a 520 to pass.
> >
> > Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a 52%
to
> > pass or are all these numbers bunk?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Frank
> > welshdragon@ameritech.net
> >
> > AAS Degree, A+, Net+
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> The exams are designed to be pass/fail. The actual score means little,
> unless of course you get them all correct.
>
> --
> Ben Smith
> Microsoft Training and Certification
> Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
message
> Actually, that's not so. JayDubb's explanation was right on the mark.
> If an exam gets "more difficult", the passing score is lowered, not
> raised.
Then I am wondering why the 216 required a higher pass mark than 210. With
that logic the 216 must be the easier exam. I really hope you're right so
that Exchange's 755 requirement and ISA's 720 will make them completely
trivial in comparison to any of the cores.
Somehow I think you misinterpreted what I said. I was talking about
comparing one exam with another. And I think Jay was talking about when they
adjusted 210 to make it harder and then lowered the pass mark to compensate
| |
| robert 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| whats the passing score on the 216.
"Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.175069f67e5d4c9b9898f7@msnews.microsoft.com...
> In article <nfiF8.15257$d7.4945311@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
> welshdragon@ameritech.net says...
> > A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
> > needed a 520 to pass.
> >
> > Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a 52%
to
> > pass or are all these numbers bunk?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Frank
> > welshdragon@ameritech.net
> >
> > AAS Degree, A+, Net+
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Exams are pass/fail. 520 out of 1000 does not necessarily equate to
> 52%. Questions may be weighted differently and some may not be counted
> in the final score. The only number that is meaningful would be if you
> got them all correct.
>
> --
> Ben Smith
> Microsoft Training and Certification
> Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.362 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/8/2002
| |
| Tom Helms 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| pass/fail are the only scores you'll see
"robert" <robert.vegas@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:eOc1utu$BHA.2276@tkmsftngp02...
> whats the passing score on the 216.
>
> "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.175069f67e5d4c9b9898f7@msnews.microsoft.com...
> > In article <nfiF8.15257$d7.4945311@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
> > welshdragon@ameritech.net says...
> > > A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
> > > needed a 520 to pass.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a
52%
> to
> > > pass or are all these numbers bunk?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Frank
> > > welshdragon@ameritech.net
> > >
> > > AAS Degree, A+, Net+
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Exams are pass/fail. 520 out of 1000 does not necessarily equate to
> > 52%. Questions may be weighted differently and some may not be counted
> > in the final score. The only number that is meaningful would be if you
> > got them all correct.
> >
> > --
> > Ben Smith
> > Microsoft Training and Certification
> > Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
> >
> > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> > rights.
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.362 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/8/2002
>
>
| |
| S. O'Brien 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| Exchange exam is different... it has only 45 questions... compare that to
the 60+ average of the rest of them (on average - design ones are
different), it actually puts the Exchange mark in the 900 range going up or
400 going down (depends on your point of view)
Sue
"70-224" <Iggy@the.pop> wrote in message
news:6mDF8.213479$pT2.31746@news.easynews.com...
> "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
> message
> > Actually, that's not so. JayDubb's explanation was right on the mark.
> > If an exam gets "more difficult", the passing score is lowered, not
> > raised.
>
> Then I am wondering why the 216 required a higher pass mark than 210. With
> that logic the 216 must be the easier exam. I really hope you're right so
> that Exchange's 755 requirement and ISA's 720 will make them completely
> trivial in comparison to any of the cores.
>
> Somehow I think you misinterpreted what I said. I was talking about
> comparing one exam with another. And I think Jay was talking about when
they
> adjusted 210 to make it harder and then lowered the pass mark to
compensate
>
>
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| "Jinxy" <cobalt_blueuk@yahoo.com_No Spam Welcome> wrote in message
> I took 216 and used up almost the whole three hours! There is no way an
> average intelligent person can do that exam in under 1 hour, yet many brag
> about it. Doesn't take a genius to construct a score on this protential
> braindumper.
It took me an hour and ten minutes and I didn't braindump. And there is no
way I am the smartest person that's taken that test (I'm nice but dim).
Alright I doubt an "average intelligent person" could do it under an hour
but this is a business where there are plenty way above average and for them
that exam is eminently passable in under an hour.
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| circa Sun, 19 May 2002 01:38:10 GMT, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, 70-224 (Iggy@the.pop) said,
> "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
> message
> > Actually, that's not so. JayDubb's explanation was right on the mark.
> > If an exam gets "more difficult", the passing score is lowered, not
> > raised.
>
> Then I am wondering why the 216 required a higher pass mark than 210. With
> that logic the 216 must be the easier exam. I really hope you're right so
> that Exchange's 755 requirement and ISA's 720 will make them completely
> trivial in comparison to any of the cores.
>
> Somehow I think you misinterpreted what I said. I was talking about
> comparing one exam with another. And I think Jay was talking about when they
> adjusted 210 to make it harder and then lowered the pass mark to compensate
>
>
>
No, I wasn't misunderstanding what you were saying. You can't compare
one exam to another- take a look at the links I provided and you'll
see what I mean. :-)
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| circa Sun, 19 May 2002 00:14:08 -0700, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, robert (robert.vegas@rogers.com)
said,
> whats the passing score on the 216.
>
It doesn't matter. You either know enough or you don't.
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
| S. O'Brien 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| no idea... I got 960 or there abouts...
"Jinxy" <cobalt_blueuk@yahoo.com_No Spam Welcome> wrote in message
news:1021804931.3904.0@eos.uk.clara.net...
> The pass mark is even higher if you need to become a CCNA instructor. I
> think it's 920+.
>
> Jinxy.
>
>
>
> "S. O'Brien" <rmechk@nospam.ca> wrote in message
> news:8ryF8.22423$cT2.2089840@news-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> > try the CCNA exam... pass is 849 :P
> >
> >
> > "Welshdragon" <welshdragon@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> > news:xjtF8.15293$d7.4995881@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
> > > In theory this may be true. I have talked to several people at my work
> and
> > > their MS papers show 540 as passing. It doesn't show what it is based
> on.
> > > THAT IS THE PROBLEM!
> > >
> > > If I were an employer and someone showed me a passing score of 560, I
> > would
> > > look down on that person who passed! I would guess that the test was
> based
> > > out of 1000 and that the employee only got 56% correct.
> > >
> > > But if I, an employer, new that the test was based out of say a
possible
> > > 700, then I would be very excited for the person who passed! In this
> > > scenerio, the employee would have gotten an 80%.
> > >
> > > So what good is MS telling you the score? It is meaningless unless you
> > know
> > > what it is based on! And my employer wants to see the score!!!!!! So
the[c
olor=darkred]
> > > nagging question still remains- what percentage is passing? 65%, 54%,[/color]
or[co
lor=darkred]
> > > like the Net+ 82%??? At least Comptia tells you what you need to pass!
> > >
> > > YES, IT IS IMPORTANT!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "70-224" <Iggy@the.pop> wrote in message
> > > news:iJtF8.177577$pT2.26951@news.easynews.com...
> > > > "JayDubb" <jay@dubb.nowhere.org> wrote in message
> > > > > Knowing the minimum passing score is totally MEANINGLESS because[/color]
you
> > DO
> > > > NOT have
> > > > > more "room to screw up" on a 620 minimum-score exam, versus a 700
> > > > minumum-score
> > > > > exam. When passing score requirements go down, all that means is
> > > > Microsoft has
> > > > > reduced their expectations as a result of harder questions. The
> level
> > > of
> > > > > knowledge you must have to pass the exam remains relatively
> constant.
> > > >
> > > > Mmmm. True but as the exams go on they do get harder and the minimum
> > > scores
> > > > do go up (755 ouch). So each one is progressively slightly more
> > difficult
> > > > than the last. I would agree with Jay that worrying about minimums
is[co
lor=darkred]
> > > > unwise. You shouldn't be going into exams that cost that much[/color]
thinking
> > you
> > > > might fail. The one thing scores ARE good for is telling you
> afterwards
> > if
> > > > you should have studied harder and to do so for the next one.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
message
> No, I wasn't misunderstanding what you were saying. You can't compare
> one exam to another- take a look at the links I provided and you'll
> see what I mean. :-)
Not allowed to compare huh? Okey dokey. By the way I have read them. Some of
the things they put down made me LMAO. Like the development of the exams to
be "clear, unambiguous and relevant" just tickled me no end. Looks at that
and then remembers 215's emphasis on the very relevant software raid
system... LOL They should have written for Seinfeld (might have been a funny
show then). Last exam I did I thought it had been devised by someone who
didn't speak english. The examination equivalent of Japanese VCR
instructions.
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| circa Sun, 19 May 2002 20:10:45 GMT, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, 70-224 (Iggy@the.pop) said,
> > No, I wasn't misunderstanding what you were saying. You can't compare
> > one exam to another- take a look at the links I provided and you'll
> > see what I mean. :-)
>
> Not allowed to compare huh? Okey dokey. By the way I have read them. Some of
> the things they put down made me LMAO. Like the development of the exams to
> be "clear, unambiguous and relevant" just tickled me no end.
>
I didn't say "not allowed". It's like comparing apples to oranges.
There is no comparison. That's the point. (issues with exam questions
aside)
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
message
> I didn't say "not allowed". It's like comparing apples to oranges.
> There is no comparison. That's the point. (issues with exam questions
> aside)
I had a great long schpeel on subjectivity and it's importance but it seemed
rather overkill. The short of it is if you can't compare technical exams
that have the same format and are on the same product line then when can you
compare things...
Ps. I like Apples and I don't Oranges :-)
| |
|
|
There's a difference between
....harder to pass
....harder to get all the questions right
MS says (somewhere) what % of examinees must be gettting a Q right for =
the question to "stay" on the exam -- but they do give a range of values
As I understand it, passing scores can be adjusted to keep tests ROUGHLY =
equally difficult to pass -- though I would not fault them, and it would =
not be invalid, if they made one (say 216) a bit tougher to pass -- ie =
set the score so that a lesser % of examinees were passing
| |
|
|
"Welshdragon" <welshdragon@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:nfiF8.15257$d7.4945311@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
> A friend of mine just passed with a 540. His paperwork showed that you
> needed a 520 to pass.
>
> Does anyone know if this is based on 1000? If so, do you only need a 52%
to
> pass or are all these numbers bunk?
I wrote (710) on may 15th and the passing score was 540
The easiest exam I have ever done im my life.
Cheers
Mike
| |
|
| "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1750689b32ba74169898f6@msnews.microsoft.com...
> The exams are designed to be pass/fail. The actual score means little,
> unless of course you get them all correct.
I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
no different. The exams which just give a pass / fail are really
being unfair. If one fails, it is important to know if you were close
to passing, way off the mark etc.
The Novell system where not only do your get your mark, but
get told what areas you were weak on, is a far more constructive
honest way of doing things.
Cheers
Mike
| |
|
|
"Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.175069f67e5d4c9b9898f7@msnews.microsoft.com...
> Exams are pass/fail. 520 out of 1000 does not necessarily equate to
> 52%. Questions may be weighted differently and some may not be counted
> in the final score. The only number that is meaningful would be if you
> got them all correct.
So if I got 920 and some one else 560, their is no difference?
Cheers
Mike
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| circa Tue, 21 May 2002 00:02:55 +0100, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Mike (no@spam.com) said,
>
> > The exams are designed to be pass/fail. The actual score means little,
> > unless of course you get them all correct.
>
> I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> no different.
>
I'm guessing you aren't a psychometrician.
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
|
| "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
message news:MPG.17534caf74887b03989c8c@msnews.microsoft.com...
[colo
r=darkred]
> > > The exams are designed to be pass/fail. The actual score means[/color]
little,
> > > unless of course you get them all correct.
> >
> > I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> > else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> > no different.
> >
> I'm guessing you aren't a psychometrician.
I have done enough exams to know that no matter how academic you
try get, nothing is pure black or white. All candidates do not neatly fit
into
two categories with absolutely no other difference between them. A person
who does not get one question correct is not the same as person who
would have passed if he got one more question correct. Similarly, if
on a second attempt, he gets the extra question, he is not instantly
identical to the person who got every question correct.
Cheers
Mike
| |
| Ben Smith [MS] 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| In article <eEfq$JFACHA.1848@tkmsftngp05>, no@spam.com says...
> "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1750689b32ba74169898f6@msnews.microsoft.com...
>
> > The exams are designed to be pass/fail. The actual score means little,
> > unless of course you get them all correct.
>
> I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> no different.
In the eyes of the exam, it it not different. The exams are geared to
recognize candidates with adequate knowledge and skills with a
designation that indicates to hiring managers and peers that the
certified individual should be able to perform the tasks included on the
exam. The exams are not designed to differentiate between candidates
that pass the test, and thus do not do so.
> The exams which just give a pass / fail are really
> being unfair. If one fails, it is important to know if you were close
> to passing, way off the mark etc.
>
> The Novell system where not only do your get your mark, but
> get told what areas you were weak on, is a far more constructive
> honest way of doing things.
There is nothing dishonest about not providing feedback on passed or
failed exams.
> Cheers
> Mike
--
Ben Smith
Microsoft Training and Certification
Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
| |
| Ben Smith [MS] 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| In article <#Lu6OYFACHA.1648@tkmsftngp02>, no@spam.com says...
> "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
> message news:MPG.17534caf74887b03989c8c@msnews.microsoft.com...
>
> > > > The exams are designed to be pass/fail. The actual score means
> little,
> > > > unless of course you get them all correct.
> > >
> > > I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> > > else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> > > no different.
> > >
> > I'm guessing you aren't a psychometrician.
>
> I have done enough exams to know that no matter how academic you
> try get, nothing is pure black or white. All candidates do not neatly fit
> into
> two categories with absolutely no other difference between them. A person
> who does not get one question correct is not the same as person who
> would have passed if he got one more question correct. Similarly, if
> on a second attempt, he gets the extra question, he is not instantly
> identical to the person who got every question correct.
>
> Cheers
> Mike
>
>
>
You are correct on you last point, but the aim of the exam does is not
to differentiate between candidates that have passed the exam. Outside
of a perfect score (or other extremes) one cannot definitively rank
themselves against another candidate.
--
Ben Smith
Microsoft Training and Certification
Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
| |
| Ben Smith [MS] 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| In article <OFyhmKFACHA.1316@tkmsftngp05>, no@spam.com says...
>
> "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.175069f67e5d4c9b9898f7@msnews.microsoft.com...
>
> > Exams are pass/fail. 520 out of 1000 does not necessarily equate to
> > 52%. Questions may be weighted differently and some may not be counted
> > in the final score. The only number that is meaningful would be if you
> > got them all correct.
>
> So if I got 920 and some one else 560, their is no difference?
>
> Cheers
> Mike
>
>
>
In in eyes of the test no, but at the extremes such as this case,
perhaps.
--
Ben Smith
Microsoft Training and Certification
Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
| |
|
| "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.175335ccdeafdabe9898fc@msnews.microsoft.com...
> You are correct on you last point, but the aim of the exam does is not
> to differentiate between candidates that have passed the exam. Outside
> of a perfect score (or other extremes) one cannot definitively rank
> themselves against another candidate.
My point used extremes to show the point, there is also not one shade
of grey and then black or white. I have no problem with setting
a standard (which would constantly be fined tuned) and you
make it or you do not. But knowing how successfully you faired
is not just about the simple you were under or over the line. Well,
not for me, anyway.
I have always measured IT success on it works or it does not
work. If it does not work, you have failed. Just as equally, I
have long since worked on the basis that you can always do
it better and should never just sit on your backside.
Cheers
Mike
| |
|
| "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.175335424eec2629898fb@msnews.microsoft.com...
> > I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> > else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> > no different.
>
> In the eyes of the exam, it it not different. The exams are geared to
> recognize candidates with adequate knowledge and skills with a
> designation that indicates to hiring managers and peers that the
> certified individual should be able to perform the tasks included on the
> exam. The exams are not designed to differentiate between candidates
> that pass the test, and thus do not do so.
You have just contradicted yourself, you say it is testing if candidates
have an adequate knowledge or not, then you say it does not
differentiate between candidates?
Some one giving a correct answer to 54 out 60 questions is more
skilled than some one who gave the correct response to 32 out of
60 questions. More so than failing the candidate who only got 31
questions right, but passing the candiate with 32 questions right.
> > The Novell system where not only do your get your mark, but
> > get told what areas you were weak on, is a far more constructive
> > honest way of doing things.
>
> There is nothing dishonest about not providing feedback on passed or
> failed exams.
Oh yes sir, there is, in one case I want you to pass and will guide you
to getting yourself up to the correct standard, note I don't say spoon
feed. In the other, you just keep the person in the dark and he
either learns to swim himself, or drowns.
Constructive criticism is worth 10 000 fails. You failed because you
were not up to spec in GPO's, but you did well in DNS is
being honest, just keeping quite must be the most destructive
form of education I have ever come across.
Cheers
Mike
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| circa Tue, 21 May 2002 02:11:38 +0100, in
microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Mike (no@spam.com) said,
>
> Constructive criticism is worth 10 000 fails. You failed because you
> were not up to spec in GPO's, but you did well in DNS is
> being honest, just keeping quite must be the most destructive
> form of education I have ever come across.
>
The tests are not meant to educate.
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
|
|
"Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
message news:MPG.17536abf8937b0bd989c91@msnews.microsoft.com...
> > Constructive criticism is worth 10 000 fails. You failed because you
> > were not up to spec in GPO's, but you did well in DNS is
> > being honest, just keeping quite must be the most destructive
> > form of education I have ever come across.
> >
> The tests are not meant to educate.
Then MS has created the first environment where tests have no part
in an education process. What is the point of setting standards
if the testing process is not part of the setting/achieving these
standards? What makes an MCSE so special that tests
are totally divorced from striving the achieve a standard that is
the exact standard being measured in the test?
Cheers
Mike
| |
| Ben Smith [MS] 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| In article <eOp8pKGACHA.1880@tkmsftngp04>, no@spam.com says...
> "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.175335ccdeafdabe9898fc@msnews.microsoft.com...
>
> > You are correct on you last point, but the aim of the exam does is not
> > to differentiate between candidates that have passed the exam. Outside
> > of a perfect score (or other extremes) one cannot definitively rank
> > themselves against another candidate.
>
> My point used extremes to show the point, there is also not one shade
> of grey and then black or white. I have no problem with setting
> a standard (which would constantly be fined tuned) and you
> make it or you do not. But knowing how successfully you faired
> is not just about the simple you were under or over the line. Well,
> not for me, anyway.
Point taken.
> I have always measured IT success on it works or it does not
> work. If it does not work, you have failed. Just as equally, I
> have long since worked on the basis that you can always do
> it better and should never just sit on your backside.
Amen! We are definitely on the same page here.
> Cheers
> Mike
>
>
>
--
Ben Smith
Microsoft Training and Certification
Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
| |
| Ben Smith [MS] 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| In article <eBJb7RGACHA.1848@tkmsftngp05>, no@spam.com says...
> "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.175335424eec2629898fb@msnews.microsoft.com...
>
> > > I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> > > else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> > > no different.
> >
> > In the eyes of the exam, it it not different. The exams are geared to
> > recognize candidates with adequate knowledge and skills with a
> > designation that indicates to hiring managers and peers that the
> > certified individual should be able to perform the tasks included on the
> > exam. The exams are not designed to differentiate between candidates
> > that pass the test, and thus do not do so.
>
> You have just contradicted yourself, you say it is testing if candidates
> have an adequate knowledge or not, then you say it does not
> differentiate between candidates?
No, I said "The exams are not designed to differentiate between
candidates that pass the test." It most certainly differentiates
between those who pass and do not.
> > that pass the test
>
> Some one giving a correct answer to 54 out 60 questions is more
> skilled than some one who gave the correct response to 32 out of
> 60 questions. More so than failing the candidate who only got 31
> questions right, but passing the candiate with 32 questions right.
1) Not all items are necessarily equal in difficulty
2) Not all items are scored
3) Not all tests are the same
I am trying to argue that this is the best way to assess someone's
skills, I am just trying to relate to you how it is done.
>
> > > The Novell system where not only do your get your mark, but
> > > get told what areas you were weak on, is a far more constructive
> > > honest way of doing things.
> >
> > There is nothing dishonest about not providing feedback on passed or
> > failed exams.
>
> Oh yes sir, there is, in one case I want you to pass and will guide you
> to getting yourself up to the correct standard, note I don't say spoon
> feed. In the other, you just keep the person in the dark and he
> either learns to swim himself, or drowns.
>
> Constructive criticism is worth 10 000 fails. You failed because you
> were not up to spec in GPO's, but you did well in DNS is
> being honest, just keeping quite must be the most destructive
> form of education I have ever come across.
I don't think it is an issue of honesty, but I do agree with you on the
education piece and as Laura responded, the tests are intended as pure
assessment, not training - right or wrong.
I strongly encourage you to attend an MCP chat, which happen regularly,
it is the best channel for delivering this type of feedback.
> Cheers
> Mike
>
>
>
--
Ben Smith
Microsoft Training and Certification
Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
| |
|
| "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1753553fd4af76989898ff@msnews.microsoft.com...
> No, I said "The exams are not designed to differentiate between
> candidates that pass the test." It most certainly differentiates
> between those who pass and do not.
Why I differ is that they do in reality differentiate, it is actually
possible
to score a range of scores far more than 2 (pass or fail). All MS is
doing is hiding the differentiation from the people sitting the exams.
> 1) Not all items are necessarily equal in difficulty
> 2) Not all items are scored
> 3) Not all tests are the same
>
> I am trying to argue that this is the best way to assess someone's
> skills, I am just trying to relate to you how it is done.
I accept that and am hoping I am just having a constructive debate
rather than seen to be picking on you.
Your three points make it more difficult to directly compare test
results, but do not mean that their are no more differentials than
pass or fail.
> > Constructive criticism is worth 10 000 fails. You failed because you
> > were not up to spec in GPO's, but you did well in DNS is
> > being honest, just keeping quite must be the most destructive
> > form of education I have ever come across.
>
> I don't think it is an issue of honesty, but I do agree with you on the
> education piece and as Laura responded, the tests are intended as pure
> assessment, not training - right or wrong.
> I strongly encourage you to attend an MCP chat, which happen regularly,
> it is the best channel for delivering this type of feedback.
What is MCP chat? I am a newbie to these MS forums on certifications :-)
Cheers
Mike
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| "Mike" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
> Why I differ is that they do in reality differentiate, it is actually
> possible
> to score a range of scores far more than 2 (pass or fail). All MS is
> doing is hiding the differentiation from the people sitting the exams.
A lot of proffesional qualifications don't have an attributed mark or
percentage on them. My own degree didn't come with a grade (although most
do). My brother's doctorate didn't come with a grade. My other brother's
medical qualification didn't come with a grade . Which makes sense, either
he is fit to work on you or not. The thing is that MCP is the lowest cert
that M$ do. It's not regarded as particularly important and thus no need to
grade it. Now MCSE is much more important and show that a person was able to
string 7 of them together doing some quite tricky exams. But no company
really wants to sift through 7 grades for just for a low level cert like
MCSE. Also since people PAY for these exams I doubt many would appreciate
having to retake an exam just cos to get a better percentage.
The only reason M$ have the score is to help people know if they are
studying hard enough. If you're getting 550's instead of 900's then you
might want to work harder (or better) for the next exam. Actually the REAL
reason M$ give results is because people whinge like mad if they get no
feedback at all on how well they did :-)
| |
| JayDubb 2002-06-22, 6:46 pm |
| Mike wrote:
>
> I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> no different.
No, but as long as the passing score was less than or equal to 560, it means you
both met Microsoft's minimum benchmark to receive certification on the topic for
which you were taking the exam.
> The exams which just give a pass / fail are really being unfair.
Frustrating for the curious, yes. Unfair, NO.
> If one fails, it is important to know if you were close to passing, way off
> the mark etc.
I've said many times that the Microsoft exams I've taken have been relatively
easy compared to other exam rituals I've endured. Let me remind those who may
have lost sight, that the whole MCSA/E certification process is about
demonstrating enough knowledge to be an Administrator or Engineer. This is not
a cert that says you're a competent end user-- it's a cert that says you're
knowledgeable enough to be a *problem solver* at the core level. If you fail an
exam, you should be more concerned that you failed the exam at all (which
indicates you really don't know as much about the product as you thought you
did) than with worrying about points. There are so many practice exams
available that give scores, explainations, etc., that there is no reason why you
can't figure out where your shortcomings are even if MS doesn't give you a
numeric score.
IMHO, of course.
>
| |
|
|
"70-224" <Iggy@the.pop> wrote in message
news:5HoG8.630361$r_2.5984265@news.easynews.com...
> A lot of proffesional qualifications don't have an attributed mark or
> percentage on them. My own degree didn't come with a grade (although most
> do). My brother's doctorate didn't come with a grade.
A doctorate by definition is research in a new area an you cannot
do something that has been done before in a thesis. Clearly this
makes comparison's near impossible
> My other brother's medical qualification didn't come with a grade .
Most do.
> Which makes sense, either
> he is fit to work on you or not. The thing is that MCP is the lowest cert
> that M$ do. It's not regarded as particularly important and thus no need
to
> grade it. Now MCSE is much more important and show that a person was able
to
> string 7 of them together doing some quite tricky exams. But no company
> really wants to sift through 7 grades for just for a low level cert like
> MCSE. Also since people PAY for these exams I doubt many would appreciate
> having to retake an exam just cos to get a better percentage.
A MCSE is several MCP's slung togethere.
> The only reason M$ have the score is to help people know if they are
> studying hard enough. If you're getting 550's instead of 900's then you
> might want to work harder (or better) for the next exam. Actually the REAL
> reason M$ give results is because people whinge like mad if they get no
> feedback at all on how well they did :-)
My reason for arguing that marks should be given is not for me to compare
my marks to yours, but for me to improve myself and grade myself. One
cannot however avoid that the a near perfect pass is better than a scrape.
Nothing more sole destroying than failing and having no clue how close
or far you were from the standard required.
Cheers
Mike
| |
|
|
"JayDubb" <jay@dubb.nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:3CEA4B60.236347C7@dubb.nowhere.org...
> Mike wrote:
> >
> > I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> > else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> > no different.
>
> No, but as long as the passing score was less than or equal to 560, it
means you
> both met Microsoft's minimum benchmark to receive certification on the
topic for
> which you were taking the exam.
Thank you, still plenty of difference even if both met the requirements.
Not every one has aims in life that strive as high as 'just meet the
requirements'.
> > The exams which just give a pass / fail are really being unfair.
>
> Frustrating for the curious, yes. Unfair, NO.
Totally unfair, Feedback on what one does wrong is a critically
important facet of life and the single most important thing to
learning from one's mistakes and improving one's self.
Do you argue crimminals should not know what they have done
wrong and why they went to jail? Should they not be allowed the
opportunity to reform?
Please don't read into this that I think people who fail MS exams
are crimminals :-)
> > If one fails, it is important to know if you were close to passing, way
off
> > the mark etc.
>
> I've said many times that the Microsoft exams I've taken have been
relatively
> easy compared to other exam rituals I've endured.
And how does this relate to those who find it is the toughest thing
they have done?
> Let me remind those who may
> have lost sight, that the whole MCSA/E certification process is about
> demonstrating enough knowledge to be an Administrator or Engineer. This
is not
> a cert that says you're a competent end user-- it's a cert that says
you're
> knowledgeable enough to be a *problem solver* at the core level. If you
fail an
> exam, you should be more concerned that you failed the exam at all (which
> indicates you really don't know as much about the product as you thought
you
> did) than with worrying about points.
Nonesense, how badly you failed is critical feedback. What areas you failed
in even more important.
> There are so many practice exams
> available that give scores, explainations, etc., that there is no reason
why you
> can't figure out where your shortcomings are even if MS doesn't give you a
> numeric score.
I have not seen any that really simulate the MS exams. An I definitely
include
transcenders in this. When I do my electives, I will definitely not be
bothering with transcenders.
Cheers
Mike
| |
| diamondDan 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| It sounds like you have some psychological needs to be approved and to be
measured and graded.
Maybe this works for high school and college, but in the real world you
don't always get that luxury. You have to learn to let go of your desire to
be benchmarked. It will only consume you. If you fail to land a job, do you
go back to the company and ask what you should have done different or what
skills you should have had to get the job? If your coworker gets promoted
and you don't, what employer will openly and honestly discuss the reasons
and motivations behind the promotion decision? Don't fool yourself, the
adult world seldom gives back quantifiable feedback. The feedback you get
will be mostly subjective and will have little bearing on actual
performance.
But I digress. Bottom line - That is the way that Microsoft tests are
structured, deal with it or don't. If you fail, it is because you didn't
know the testing objectives well enough. We are adults and don't need
someone to hold our hand and tell us exactly what to study. I would think
that you would be able to determine that yourself based on your thoughts on
the exam questions that puzzled you the most. Study those areas. Beyond
that, you are on your own.
BTW - it is rumored that MS removed the scoring by section because of
braindumpers correlating their memories of correct answers on the sections
they did well on. So while you may think that dumpers don't hurt the
industry - you may have them to thank for your personal testing dilemmas.
"Mike" <no@spam.com> wrote in message news:uQS6xKPACHA.2296@tkmsftngp05...
>
> "JayDubb" <jay@dubb.nowhere.org> wrote in message
> news:3CEA4B60.236347C7@dubb.nowhere.org...
> > Mike wrote:
> > >
> > > I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> > > else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> > > no different.
> >
> > No, but as long as the passing score was less than or equal to 560, it
> means you
> > both met Microsoft's minimum benchmark to receive certification on the
> topic for
> > which you were taking the exam.
>
> Thank you, still plenty of difference even if both met the requirements.
> Not every one has aims in life that strive as high as 'just meet the
> requirements'.
>
> > > The exams which just give a pass / fail are really being unfair.
> >
> > Frustrating for the curious, yes. Unfair, NO.
>
> Totally unfair, Feedback on what one does wrong is a critically
> important facet of life and the single most important thing to
> learning from one's mistakes and improving one's self.
>
> Do you argue crimminals should not know what they have done
> wrong and why they went to jail? Should they not be allowed the
> opportunity to reform?
>
> Please don't read into this that I think people who fail MS exams
> are crimminals :-)
>
>
> > > If one fails, it is important to know if you were close to passing,
way
> off
> > > the mark etc.
> >
> > I've said many times that the Microsoft exams I've taken have been
> relatively
> > easy compared to other exam rituals I've endured.
>
> And how does this relate to those who find it is the toughest thing
> they have done?
>
> > Let me remind those who may
> > have lost sight, that the whole MCSA/E certification process is about
> > demonstrating enough knowledge to be an Administrator or Engineer. This
> is not
> > a cert that says you're a competent end user-- it's a cert that says
> you're
> > knowledgeable enough to be a *problem solver* at the core level. If you
> fail an
> > exam, you should be more concerned that you failed the exam at all
(which
> > indicates you really don't know as much about the product as you thought
> you
> > did) than with worrying about points.
>
> Nonesense, how badly you failed is critical feedback. What areas you
failed
> in even more important.
>
> > There are so many practice exams
> > available that give scores, explainations, etc., that there is no reason
> why you
> > can't figure out where your shortcomings are even if MS doesn't give you
a
> > numeric score.
>
> I have not seen any that really simulate the MS exams. An I definitely
> include
> transcenders in this. When I do my electives, I will definitely not be
> bothering with transcenders.
>
> Cheers
> Mike
>
>
>
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| On Tue, 21 May 2002 14:28:42 -0400, while I was adjusting my tinfoil
hat to keep out the alien rays, diamondDan said in <e9JT8UPACHA.1848
@tkmsftngp05>:
> BTW - it is rumored that MS removed the scoring by section because of
> braindumpers correlating their memories of correct answers on the sections
> they did well on. So while you may think that dumpers don't hurt the
> industry - you may have them to thank for your personal testing dilemmas.
>
>
I don't even think it's rumor- I think MS has stated such.
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
| Peter Dost 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| "70-224" <Iggy@the.pop> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9FTF8.540448$r_2.5110311@news.easynews.com...
: "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
: message
....
: show then). Last exam I did I thought it had been devised by someone who
: didn't speak english. The examination equivalent of Japanese VCR
: instructions.
You should have seen the German versions...
Peter
| |
| Peter Dost 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:MPG.17536abf8937b0bd989c91@msnews.microsoft.com...
: circa Tue, 21 May 2002 02:11:38 +0100, in
: microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcse, Mike (no@spam.com) said,
: >
: > Constructive criticism is worth 10 000 fails. You failed because you
: > were not up to spec in GPO's, but you did well in DNS is
: > being honest, just keeping quite must be the most destructive
: > form of education I have ever come across.
: >
: The tests are not meant to educate.
Maybe they are not meant to educate, but IF MS is interested in well
educated people to pass the tests a little bit of constructive critisism
would be much better for all of us.
- For MS if they hve more people certified who do not have to braindump to
pss the tests because they have no idea where they failed the first time
- much better for us who not only learn to pass the tests but want to be
able to work with our knowledge.
It helps me to improve myself if I know where I have to invest more time to
do a good job after certification.
Peter
| |
|
| "diamondDan" <nospam@noway.com> wrote in message
news:e9JT8UPACHA.1848@tkmsftngp05...
> It sounds like you have some psychological needs to be approved and to be
> measured and graded.
> Maybe this works for high school and college, but in the real world you
> don't always get that luxury.
In the real world you are measured all the time. You are compared to
those around you all the time. Hell, none more so than a USA bank I
worked at for four years.
> You have to learn to let go of your desire to be benchmarked. It will only
> consume you.
I have always set myself standards and strive to them, aged 40, you are
harldy likely to change this desire in me. Am I consumed by it, come off
it.
> If you fail to land a job, do you go back to the company and ask what
> you should have done different or what skills you should have had to get
> the job? If your coworker gets promoted and you don't, what employer
> will openly and honestly discuss the reasons and motivations behind the
> promotion decision? Don't fool yourself, the adult world seldom gives
> back quantifiable feedback. The feedback you get
> will be mostly subjective and will have little bearing on actual
> performance.
Yes, I do go back and try find out why I was not suitable or why I was
looked over, it is all in how you approach it. If you are negative and
up in arms, you will be blown away, if you quitely go to your
manager and say I am upset at missing out, but I accept it. I would
however like to improve and become elligable in the future, could
you please help me understand why I did not suceed and how I could
for the future. I have never been turned down.
My current post, my 21C applied for the my job and we sat all tests
and were interviewed within half an hour of each other. He was really
upset that an outsider with no academic experience (other than being
a student many years ago) got the nod ahead of him. Things were
really difficult in the begining, using this approach from the other end,
I have won him over, and he already is talking on the lines of one
day I will move on and he will be ready to take my post. This
was achieved in 6 weeks.
> But I digress. Bottom line - That is the way that Microsoft tests are
> structured, deal with it or don't. If you fail, it is because you didn't
> know the testing objectives well enough. We are adults and don't need
> someone to hold our hand and tell us exactly what to study. I would think
> that you would be able to determine that yourself based on your thoughts
on
> the exam questions that puzzled you the most. Study those areas. Beyond
> that, you are on your own.
I accept this but I am certainly not going to miss the opportunity to
present
my views as they arise :-)
> BTW - it is rumored that MS removed the scoring by section because of
> braindumpers correlating their memories of correct answers on the sections
> they did well on. So while you may think that dumpers don't hurt the
> industry - you may have them to thank for your personal testing dilemmas.
What a stupid way of coping with this problem. Change the pool of questions
frequently and brain dumping would be impossible. Academics have to do this
every exam cycle.
Cheers
Mike
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| "Peter Dost" <spamentsorgung@gmx.de> wrote in message
> You should have seen the German versions...
I think I did :-)
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| "Mike" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
> "70-224" <Iggy@the.pop> wrote in message
> > My other brother's medical qualification didn't come with a grade .
>
> Most do.
And plenty don't. It's just a different way of doing things.
> A MCSE is several MCP's slung togethere.
Yeah. That's what I was saying. Think we got crossed wires there somewhere.
> Nothing more sole destroying than failing and having no clue how close
> or far you were from the standard required.
Oh well on that I totally agree. I much prefer to see SOME kind of feedback.
I wasn't at all happy to see them change exams to pass/fail when you get to
the finish screen. But I AM glad that I am the only one that gets to see
those marks even though they have been high.
| |
|
| "70-224" <Iggy@the.pop> wrote in message
news dxG8.654674$r_2.6193576@news.easynews.com...
> > Nothing more sole destroying than failing and having no clue how close
> > or far you were from the standard required.
>
> Oh well on that I totally agree. I much prefer to see SOME kind of
feedback.
> I wasn't at all happy to see them change exams to pass/fail when you get
to
> the finish screen. But I AM glad that I am the only one that gets to see
> those marks even though they have been high.
Do you or did you ever find it common that employers would want to
see your individual exam marks once you had a full qualification?
I have only once ever had some one ask me for my MCNE certificate,
I have never been asked for exam scores.
Cheers
Mike
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| On Tue, 21 May 2002 21:13:01 +0200, while I was adjusting my tinfoil
hat to keep out the alien rays, Peter Dost said in <ace67u$osal3$2
@ID-77121.news.dfncis.de>:
> : > Constructive criticism is worth 10 000 fails. You failed because you
> : > were not up to spec in GPO's, but you did well in DNS is
> : > being honest, just keeping quite must be the most destructive
> : > form of education I have ever come across.
> : >
> : The tests are not meant to educate.
>
> Maybe they are not meant to educate, but IF MS is interested in well
> educated people to pass the tests a little bit of constructive critisism
> would be much better for all of us.
>
My point was, and is, Mike claimed the exams as a form of education.
They are not. Don't read what I didn't type, please.
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| On Tue, 21 May 2002 20:16:59 +0100, while I was adjusting my tinfoil
hat to keep out the alien rays, Mike said in <O7CddwPACHA.2044
@tkmsftngp04>:
>
> I accept this but I am certainly not going to miss the opportunity to
> present
> my views as they arise :-)
Yes, that's quite clear.
>
> > BTW - it is rumored that MS removed the scoring by section because of
> > braindumpers correlating their memories of correct answers on the sections
> > they did well on. So while you may think that dumpers don't hurt the
> > industry - you may have them to thank for your personal testing dilemmas.
>
> What a stupid way of coping with this problem. Change the pool of questions
> frequently and brain dumping would be impossible.
Perhaps you should read the links that have been repeatedly provided
here. The exams *are* regularly seeded. Microsoft does not announce
when it has been done, as this would be a signal to brain dumpers.
Academics have to do this
> every exam cycle.
Microsoft does it more often than that.
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| "Mike" <no@spam.com> wrote in message news:e2zP4ZQACHA.2296@tkmsftngp05...
> Do you or did you ever find it common that employers would want to
> see your individual exam marks once you had a full qualification?
>
> I have only once ever had some one ask me for my MCNE certificate,
> I have never been asked for exam scores.
No one has asked me either. Doubt they ever will.
| |
|
| "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
message news:MPG.17547d2c25222f09989ce7@msnews.microsoft.com...
[colo
r=darkred]
> > > BTW - it is rumored that MS removed the scoring by section because of
> > > braindumpers correlating their memories of correct answers on the[/color]
sections
> > > they did well on. So while you may think that dumpers don't hurt the
> > > industry - you may have them to thank for your personal testing
dilemmas.
> >
> > What a stupid way of coping with this problem. Change the pool of
questions
> > frequently and brain dumping would be impossible.
>
> Perhaps you should read the links that have been repeatedly provided
> here.
I apologise for having only been on this forum for just over 24 hours
and deciding to read through 5000 odd old posts.
> The exams *are* regularly seeded. Microsoft does not announce
> when it has been done, as this would be a signal to brain dumpers.
Then why have the need to hide marks from people taking the
exams? MS easily has the resources to ensure no two exams are
ever exaclty the same.
> Academics have to do this
> > every exam cycle.
>
> Microsoft does it more often than that.
Then again, why the secrecy over the marks?
Cheers
Mike
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| On Tue, 21 May 2002 23:04:45 +0100, while I was adjusting my tinfoil
hat to keep out the alien rays, Mike said in <#WdpNORACHA.1168
@tkmsftngp02>:
[colo
r=darkred]
> > > What a stupid way of coping with this problem. Change the pool of
> questions
> > > frequently and brain dumping would be impossible.
> >
> > Perhaps you should read the links that have been repeatedly provided
> > here.
>
> I apologise for having only been on this forum for just over 24 hours
> and deciding to read through 5000 odd old posts.[/color]
Quit seeing insult where it isn't intended. Several times in *recent*
posts, links to Microsoft's training and certification pages have
been posted. I was recommending that you take a look.
>
> > The exams *are* regularly seeded. Microsoft does not announce
> > when it has been done, as this would be a signal to brain dumpers.
>
> Then why have the need to hide marks from people taking the
> exams? MS easily has the resources to ensure no two exams are
> ever exaclty the same.
Because in the interim periods when a question has not been seeded,
it is still open fodder for brain dumpers, who, if given scores and
feedback beyond pass/fail, can determine roughly which questions they
got correct. Surely you aren't as dense as you're playing here.
>
> > Academics have to do this
> > > every exam cycle.
> >
> > Microsoft does it more often than that.
>
> Then again, why the secrecy over the marks?
Multiple methods? Come on. Just because you don't like that you can't
get your silly score report doesn't mean that there aren't valid
reasons for Microsoft having implemented it. As I've said, unless
you're a psychometrician or have specialized in this area in some
way, you're not presenting anything I see as valid reasoning for your
argument. Regardless, since you apparently get offended by my every
post, I'll leave you to your rants.
Laura
--
One man's mundane and boring existence is another man's Technicolor.
-Tick, Strange Days
| |
| Ben Smith [MS] 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| In article <MPG.1753553fd4af76989898ff@msnews.microsoft.com>,
bensmi@microsoft.com says...
> In article <eBJb7RGACHA.1848@tkmsftngp05>, no@spam.com says...
> > "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.175335424eec2629898fb@msnews.microsoft.com...
> >
> > > > I am sorry, this is plain stupid, I got 920 for this exam, some one
> > > > else sitting at the same time got 560. You cannot tell me this is
> > > > no different.
> > >
> > > In the eyes of the exam, it it not different. The exams are geared to
> > > recognize candidates with adequate knowledge and skills with a
> > > designation that indicates to hiring managers and peers that the
> > > certified individual should be able to perform the tasks included on the
> > > exam. The exams are not designed to differentiate between candidates
> > > that pass the test, and thus do not do so.
> >
> > You have just contradicted yourself, you say it is testing if candidates
> > have an adequate knowledge or not, then you say it does not
> > differentiate between candidates?
>
> No, I said "The exams are not designed to differentiate between
> candidates that pass the test." It most certainly differentiates
> between those who pass and do not.
>
> > > that pass the test
> >
> > Some one giving a correct answer to 54 out 60 questions is more
> > skilled than some one who gave the correct response to 32 out of
> > 60 questions. More so than failing the candidate who only got 31
> > questions right, but passing the candiate with 32 questions right.
>
> 1) Not all items are necessarily equal in difficulty
> 2) Not all items are scored
> 3) Not all tests are the same
>
> I am trying to argue that this is the best way to assess someone's
> skills, I am just trying to relate to you how it is done.
Oops. This should read....
I am not trying to argue that this is the best way to assess someone's
skills, I am just trying to relate to you how it is done.
<snip>
--
Ben Smith
Microsoft Training and Certification
Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
| |
| Ben Smith [MS] 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| In article <uwS##lKACHA.2044@tkmsftngp04>, no@spam.com says...
> "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1753553fd4af76989898ff@msnews.microsoft.com...
>
> > No, I said "The exams are not designed to differentiate between
> > candidates that pass the test." It most certainly differentiates
> > between those who pass and do not.
>
> Why I differ is that they do in reality differentiate, it is actually
> possible
> to score a range of scores far more than 2 (pass or fail). All MS is
> doing is hiding the differentiation from the people sitting the exams.
>
> > 1) Not all items are necessarily equal in difficulty
> > 2) Not all items are scored
> > 3) Not all tests are the same
> >
> > I am trying to argue that this is the best way to assess someone's
> > skills, I am just trying to relate to you how it is done.
>
> I accept that and am hoping I am just having a constructive debate
> rather than seen to be picking on you.
>
> Your three points make it more difficult to directly compare test
> results, but do not mean that their are no more differentials than
> pass or fail.
>
> > > Constructive criticism is worth 10 000 fails. You failed because you
> > > were not up to spec in GPO's, but you did well in DNS is
> > > being honest, just keeping quite must be the most destructive
> > > form of education I have ever come across.
> >
> > I don't think it is an issue of honesty, but I do agree with you on the
> > education piece and as Laura responded, the tests are intended as pure
> > assessment, not training - right or wrong.
>
> > I strongly encourage you to attend an MCP chat, which happen regularly,
> > it is the best channel for delivering this type of feedback.
>
> What is MCP chat? I am a newbie to these MS forums on certifications :-)
Chat schedules can be found here http://communities2.microsoft.com/home/default.aspx
There are frequent MCP chats.
> Cheers
> Mike
>
>
>
--
Ben Smith
Microsoft Training and Certification
Are you secure? http://www.microsoft.com/security
This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no
rights.
| |
| 70-224 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
message
> Quit seeing insult where it isn't intended. Several times in *recent*
Hmmmm.
> got correct. Surely you aren't as dense as you're playing here.
Then that....
> Multiple methods? Come on. Just because you don't like that you can't
> get your silly score report doesn't mean that there aren't valid
And then this.
> reasons for Microsoft having implemented it. As I've said, unless
> you're a psychometrician or have specialized in this area in some
No one else can have opinions unless they are a psychometrician? Thats a bit
ad hominem (attacking the person and not their arguments) and I think you've
used that one a few times already.
> way, you're not presenting anything I see as valid reasoning for your
> argument. Regardless, since you apparently get offended by my every
> post, I'll leave you to your rants.
Maybe you're not noticing it but when you are talking to people you can be
very VERY condescending. If they continue to disagree with you then tend to
tell them how important you are - quote "I was asked to 'write' the
questions" which never goes down well because it comes out as "my opinion is
much more important than yours".
I don't want to start another flame fight with you. One a month is plenty
but you may want to reread your posts before you send them and try and see
how they would feel if you were on the recieving end. Remember the people
here aren't your students, many of them are your peers.
| |
|
| "Ben Smith [MS]" <bensmi@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1754a006aaa6ee32989903@msnews.microsoft.com...
[colo
r=darkred]
> > > I strongly encourage you to attend an MCP chat, which happen[/color]
regularly,
> > > it is the best channel for delivering this type of feedback.
> >
> > What is MCP chat? I am a newbie to these MS forums on certifications :-)
>
>
> Chat schedules can be found here
http://communities2.microsoft.com/home/default.aspx
>
> There are frequent MCP chats.
I have just searched through site and cannot find MCP chat. Do these
only show when they are active, is it USA time zones only?
Cheers
Mike
| |
| Laura A. Robinson 2002-06-22, 6:47 pm |
| On Wed, 22 May 2002 07:22:50 GMT, while I was adjusting my tinfoil
hat to keep out the alien rays, 70-224 said in <eHHG8.687608$r_
2.6477368@news.easynews.com>:
> "Laura A. Robinson" < usefirstinitiallastname@techno
logist.com> wrote in
> message
> > Quit seeing insult where it isn't intended. Several times in *recent*
>
> Hmmmm.
>
> > got correct. Surely you aren't as dense as you're playing here. | | |