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windows programming
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| mikeghet 2002-06-03, 10:57 pm |
| Would a book on windows api apply to this exam? Or is this exam mostly mfc stuff? Also how much attention is given to newbies with just a cert? Is this mcp enough for a very basic entry level $10 an hour job in programming. Is this forum dead? | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-04, 3:12 pm |
| MFC provides wrapper functions for the Win32 API. What exam are you talking about? Yes, I think this forum is dead - there's a cold wind of hell over it at the least.  | |
| hard_coder 2002-06-04, 3:15 pm |
| Stick to networking and leave the development to us Pros.
That was pretty harsh huh? Get used to it - it's a dog-eat-dog world in the IT industry. | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-05, 1:43 am |
| Richard, I was talking about ms exam 70-016. It is for the mscd certification. I just wnate dto know if these certs hold as much or a s little as othere certs do in othere feilds. Does a mcp cert in vc++ get u a entry level job, or does it take much more than that just to get an entry levle job? Hey thanks for the heads up hard_coder. You jsut naswered all of my quesiotns.  | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-05, 7:42 am |
| mikeghet, I am right on the verge of taking this exam and it is a tough one - probably more difficult than the C++ distributed exam. It must rank as one of the most difficult exams on the track. The C++ language is difficult too - you should try and learn the language first in my opinion. You will need a solid grasp of COM. You will need to know about object oriented concepts and how to apply them in programming. If you don't know these things then they will take you a long, long time to learn. If you have done no programming before then you should not be attempting this exam - okay maybe hard_coder was having an off day - but their is truth in what he says. Though I will have this exam in days it will not guarantee me a job. There is no such thing as entry level jobs that comprise C++ programming. If you are really determined to program and you have little experience of this then start with something like VB. | |
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| Richard,
What is your knowledge of NT like? Drop me a PM if you want to know why.... | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-05, 9:01 am |
| AndyC, I prefer to post up here - recruiters do occasionally glide silently in and out of these forums you know.
Installation of NT 4.0, Windows 2000 and Small Business Server
Dual booted NT 4.0 - Linux, NT 4.0 - Win 98
Configured clients
IIS 4.0 and IIS 5.0
Addressed security issues
User and Groups management | |
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| Are you in Croydon now? If so, meet me at the Whitgift Centre entrance at 3:20 | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-05, 9:22 am |
| AndyC, I'm sorry but I cannot just pack things up and get over to the WhitGift centre at a moments notice. Also, I simply don't network like that. If you know about a job then e-mail me with the details - you have my e-mail - though really I am looking for a programming job and not one dealing with NT. | |
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| Ah well mate, it was for £250-£300 per day for three months... | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-05, 9:34 am |
| Noone is going to give me a job like that. I'm looking for 25 - 28K | |
| AndyC 2002-06-05, 12:01 pm |
| S**T....I've lost your e-mail address | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-05, 2:23 pm |
| Is that an observation or a request? | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-17, 5:30 pm |
| RichardJW,
I have taken one vc++ class already. I know about classes and pointers and functions. I am not the greatest at it though.
I am getting by with chapter three so far. Do I have to remeber the code for the classes or do I have to remeber how to use visual studio to implement the class? I don't hardly see any hard coding. It is mostly using wizards and stuff for class creation. I am only at chapter three so far and expect this to change. Do I have to remember to the cod for wk_lbuttondown? Or do I have to remeber how to implement it using visual studio? Answers to any of these would be great.
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| RichardJW 2002-06-17, 6:03 pm |
| Hi mikeghet, quote:
I know about classes and pointers and functions
That's fair enough but these are aspects of the C++ language and not Microsoft Visual C++ specifically. True, you need to know about them but MS exams focus on their product and won't focus specifically on C++.quote:
do I have to remeber how to use visual studio to implement the class? I don't hardly see any hard coding. It is mostly using wizards and stuff for class creation.
The exam will go beyond code generation using wizards and expect you to understand the code and concepts and technologies behind the wizards in considerable depth especially regarding COM. Nobody likes COM all that much, but you will need to know it in depth. The new Visual Studio .NET has essentially done away with it and there won't be too many sorry to see it go. However, this will take a great deal of time to learn. If you have not been exposed to this kind of thing before then I'm afraid that you cannot just wade in at the deep end and hope to understand it. This is why I took the VB exams first because they have a docile approach which you can build on whereas VC++ introduces all of the gory 'plumbing' of Windows programming.
Obtain a list of the skills being measured for this exam here: http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/...-016.asp#skills | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-17, 7:53 pm |
| Thanks for the input. Does one have to get the vb and c++ exams for mcsd? I thought u only needed to choose on language. Also how relevant is this cert(mcsd || 70-216) in the feild. I have read some very good things about it. Here is a link for all to c http://www.itcertinfo.com/salaries/...y=14&article=67 Pretty good article. My goal is to be able to pass 70-216 in a year. Richard do you think this is a feasable goal considering my knowledge. I am not trying to pass this in a month or two. I know this is a very serious exam and I will have to take this course slow.  | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 3:55 am |
| The 70-216 exam is not relevant to this track. I don't know what your knowledge is but a year sounds reasonable. You can find out the course requirements in the training section of the microsoft site. In fact, since I provided a link to that area I am surprised you haven't looked around there - it will answer your Q's. No, you so not need to do C++ and VB for the MCSD track. I have already read that article, it was quoted in the general discussion area about a week ago. | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-18, 4:03 pm |
| Sorry I meant 70-016. | |
| mnimvo 2002-06-18, 4:32 pm |
| Hey dude,
Well I got 70-016, 015 on the way.
And I can tell u that u should certainly learn C++ first before dreaming about this exam.
The test is mostly about COM and ActiveX, second MFC and a firm knowledge about;
message mapping, API, DB etc.
About the book, I got ms press's and it worked fine, a book only about API will most certainly not teach u enough.
good look. | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-18, 5:06 pm |
| There is a lot of c++ to learn. I can't imagine you would have to everything about c++ before you start this. I have written several crapy console programs and am needing something else now. I know it is a challenge and may take someone with less exerpience longer than someone with alot of experience. What do you think is the proper gauge to see if one is ready to start reading a book like this? The book says all you need be is familar with c++ functions, and classes, etc. Let me knwo what you think is the approprate measurement. | |
| mnimvo 2002-06-18, 5:30 pm |
| Well Mike,
Maybe u should do a VB exam(it's easier), and is, with alot of hard work nontheless, possible to get in your way.
VC++ uses a whole very lot of advanced C++ features like inheritence, virtual inheritence, polymorphism, dynamic_cast, Exception handling, macro entries etc.
And if u don't have a thorough understanding of these features, you're making it extremly hard for yourself, and may become a costy thing.
Here's give u a link where u can learn C++(it's the best book available, and free online)
http://newdata.box.sk/bx/c/ | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 5:31 pm |
| I purchased the MS Press book for 70-016 read it through and did all the exercises. I found lots of additional editing mistakes in addition to the ones which are 'official' on the MS site. I detailed them to MS but never got a reply. I then read most of the Coriolis exam cram but then stopped that concluding that it was becoming convoluted. In the meantime I had read two books purely on C++. I then read MS Press Visual C++ .NET step by step all the way through. It was indeed fairly introductory but made for some light reading (though not really on the track, hey it's still C++.) In that time I also dug into C# and Java - wrote a client - server application which is on hold right now. Currently I am digesting portions of MS Press Visual C++ 5th edition - I recommend chapter 24 highly. In conclusion I am surprised that the MS Press book sufficed, though that would have to be balanced with hands on experience or commercial experience with the product. Personally, I felt that this book did not go into nearly enough depth. However, it is also true that I am amply ready for the exam - have been for some time - and I am going beyond what the exam requires. Why am I doing this? Simply because to effectively use VC++ requires this in my opinion, though I think it is still fair to maintain that this is a difficult exam for the MCSD track. I feel that if I am going to go into a job that requires a fair amount of VC++ programming, then what I would have learnt as the requirements to pass the MS exam would not suffice to be effective in the job. This also boils down to a small commercial experience with VC++.
The 70-015? Never encountered anyone doing this exam. If the VB exams are anything to go by then it should be easier than the desktop exam. | |
| mnimvo 2002-06-18, 5:41 pm |
| Mike you're right about the editing mistakes in the mspress 70-016 book.
However those mistakes actually helped me get a better understanding of VC++, because they were fairly easy to spot and to correct.
U seem on top of things.
so good luck with your exams. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 5:43 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Mikeghet:
What do you think is the proper gauge to see if one is ready to start reading a book like this?
Start reading it and find out. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 5:45 pm |
| Mike is not me !! | |
| mnimvo 2002-06-18, 5:47 pm |
| Sorry Richard | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 5:49 pm |
| I see you're new to the forum. Normal to make minor oversights like that.
Welcome. | |
| mnimvo 2002-06-18, 5:54 pm |
| Thnx Mike...
uuhhh Richard.
By the way how's the IT bus. in London? | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 6:21 pm |
| Okay. let's not blame everything on 9:11. Remember that dot com thing? Let me tell you that predictions in the UK are yet still more layoffs in the IT sector - significant ones too - involving important companies. There are probably more jobs being created however but there are more people I suspect competing for them.
If you are out of work be prepared to take a step down.
Improve your skills in the areas that are in demand. You know I hear a lot of stuff like having 4 major certifications is a wonderful thing. This is rubbish. One suffices. It is your skills, flair and experience that matter.
Don't treat yourself as a statistic but be realistic and be prepared to take interim job. | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-18, 6:33 pm |
| Yeah!!! Richards not me. Is visual basic supposed to be easier than c++? Is this what people are supposed to start of with? I took c++ class for my degree but ahd an option to take vb but did not know why I should or shouldnt. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 6:46 pm |
| You bet VB is easy. That was the whole point when MS release V1.00. The technologies like database access are really just as difficult however, since they amount to one and the same thing whether you use VB or VC++.
VB becomes more difficult since V1.00 ... it has grabbed functionality that belongs originally to VC++.
And to think it all ends up as a single line of C in the precompilation phase. | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-18, 7:26 pm |
| Wow!!! I never knew that. That probably doesn't come as a surprise though :-). Are there good jobs for vb programmers? I mean is it something companies are looking for? Should I switch to vb or hang tuff with c++? I appreaciate your responses as I am knew to the feild and have little knowledge. | |
| mnimvo 2002-06-18, 7:31 pm |
| Mike,
I will try to make things clear for you.
VB is fine for about any mainstream Windows app u would like to build, like DB, internet or web apps.
VB is based on the language Basic, which is very consize and not powerfull at all.
Thereby you are restricted to do everything the Microsoft way, which is fine if this is all you want.
VC++ on the other hand can do all what VB can and much much more.
Because it is based on C++, which is a very extensive and the most powerfull language available. In which u can develop for any platform, as a matter of fact the entire Linux OS was coded in C.
The downside of VC++ is, that because of its high level of power and freedom, it takes more time to develop. | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-18, 7:58 pm |
| Great thanks partner! That helps alot. I notcie both of you are in Europe. How is the market for it there? Is it comparable to U.S. market? Oh yeah, U.K. rocks for helping USA. | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-18, 8:08 pm |
| I have an inspiring link for u all
http://www.itcertinfo.com/salaries/...y=14&article=67
Just another ms study on the it market with certs. This is in refrence to "gets for certs that is rubbish". I agree but these stats tell u otherwise. | |
| mnimvo 2002-06-18, 8:15 pm |
| Well,
In the Netherlands the IT sector is prety stable. Not blooming though.
It seems to me that, now all the crapy companies are gone, its the major ones in trouble yet the medium companies are doing just fine.
Since we're a high-tech country with a couple of really good university's, we will always have enough smart and capable people to keep the business up.
(As for the helping part if there's anything we Dutch stink real bad at its war, but I'm sure we do our best.) | |
| mnimvo 2002-06-18, 8:27 pm |
| yeah cool site, and nice stats.
But in the end what really matters is what you know and are capable of, not the papers you hold. | |
| 2lazybutsmart 2002-06-19, 1:56 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by RichardJW
You bet VB is easy. That was the whole point when MS release V1.00. The technologies like database access are really just as difficult however, since they amount to one and the same thing whether you use VB or VC++.
VB becomes more difficult since V1.00 ... it has grabbed functionality that belongs originally to VC++.
And to think it all ends up as a single line of C in the precompilation phase.
Richard, are you a real dabbler in VB Science or just a ....
Just drop a PM if you think you should not post it here. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-19, 4:49 pm |
| I'm trying to think what rhymes with VB Science but have drawn a blank. I'm looking through the computer glossaries likewise but still no mention so far ... | |
| TW2001 2002-06-19, 5:04 pm |
| Great Reply
im a dabbler but a real dabbler..only time will tell. | |
| 2lazybutsmart 2002-06-19, 11:24 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by RichardJW
I'm trying to think what rhymes with VB Science but have drawn a blank. I'm looking through the computer glossaries likewise but still no mention so far ...
ok.. then... this will do it:
How good are you in Microsoft Visual Basic 6.0?
don't take that question as an offense. and remember to answer people in a polite way. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-20, 6:15 am |
| I have written about 50,000 lines of VB6.0 in work - more lines out of work. Why dude? | |
| hard_coder 2002-06-21, 12:13 pm |
| In essence, the lang you use to develop with is minute (pronounced my-noot) compared to what you can give the client as a deliverable. Clients want two things : fast and cheap (aka Q&D [Quick and Dirty]). The consultant that can deliver those two things will usually win the bid. Just look at the space shuttle and fighter jets - the bidder that can get it done the fastest and cheapest gets the contact.
So whether it's VB or VC++ or Java or PHP or whatever the heck, we all use different tools to get the same things done. The company I work for uses VB .Net and ASP .Net. This allows for RAD and ease of maintenance. This dictates to dollars and turnover. Those numbers at the end of the year dictate to bonuses and raises. I like those words - and anyone that says they don't is a big fat liar.
Sorry if I deviated from the initial thread subject. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-21, 2:28 pm |
| VB makes a lot more sense usually than say VC++. However, I wrote an application in VB for work and was frustrated several times by having to provide certain advanced functionality with VC++ DLL's, these features simply could not be programmed with VB. The application was VB because at the time I was fairly useless with VC++ - definitely so with an application that size. It was also considered that future maintenance would be easier with VB. With hindsight the entire application should have been done with VC++.
However, hard_coder I agree with your comments totally except that it is unlikely surely that .NET VB and ASP will always cater to your every need - for example a client may insist on Java applets. Or is that not the case? I also would understand that you only program on the Windows platform. | |
| mnimvo 2002-06-21, 5:25 pm |
| Well guys,
I'm not an expert in .net yet, but if I have it correct the C# is supposed to be developed because of discussions like this.
Because it should be the middle way between VB and VC++, both powerfull and easy to maintain, develop etc.
Does any of you have experience with C#, if so plz inform me. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-21, 6:18 pm |
| C# is the way to go. hard_coder knows that but it was his company's decision to go with VB .NET - however I'm sure there's leeway there - though I'm not going to put words in his mouth. The transition from VB 6.0 to VB .NET or C# is thought to be about the same - in any case C# is proving popular with the VB community. I am not an expert in C# - but it is not difficult in my opinion and has similiarities with Java - though there again I don't claim any particular expertise. The Microsoft exam for C# came out on June the 6th I think, though one or two of the core exams for the MCSD .NET track won't be released for a good long while.
Wow! A thread that runs and runs in the MCSD forum! This is amazing! | |
| mikeghet 2002-06-21, 7:30 pm |
| No kidding. My first look at this forum was about twelve threads with one reply each :-) Richard, in your opeionion should I be reading a book on c# instead of the 70-016 exam book? | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-21, 7:43 pm |
| mikeghet, I am doing both! However if you plan to do any certifications then you might as well go for the new MCSD .NET track to keep your qualifications as current as possible. I will tell you that I have not delved as deep into COM as I might have considering that Microsoft are killing it off. However, many companies will not make immediate transitions into .NET and COM is surely with us for a few years yet regardless of whether Microsoft wish to describe such applications as legacy or not. Microsoft have staked the company on .NET - they have poured billions into it. What do we get? In fact, there is nothing awe inspiringly new about it - though it is something of a shock to hardened Visual Studio developers.
To answer your Q directly, I have seen no mention of C++ .NET on the new MCSD .NET track. C# yes a plenty. Remember that C++ will never go away ... |
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