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| jackiechan 2002-06-17, 8:51 pm |
| For the unemployed for more than 6 months, give up the I.T chase. The market has a nack for weeding out the weak. To be unemployed for so long means that something is wrong with you not the certs or degrees you have. Find another job in another feild. The I.T world is not a secure or stable industry to be in. Only the strong survive in this jungle. | |
| onoski 2002-06-18, 1:49 am |
| Jackiechan, have you landed an IT job now? | |
| jackiechan 2002-06-18, 3:29 am |
| onoski, How long have you been looking for work in IT? IT is pretty competitive these days. There are all sorts of animals out there wanting the same things as you. | |
| onoski 2002-06-18, 3:39 am |
| But that's life, it's all about a struggle and hence you too shouldn't give up as you are talented and have the potential. I think you should look into databases, wireless network and even Unix and Linux. I for one ain't giving up as I have put way too much effort into gaining my IT experience qualifications not to even mention the money involved.
I know how you feel, but as you rightly said it's survival of the fittest. It would be a shame to give up at this stage as well as a waste of time which is a very valuable asset. I hope I was able to shed light on this aspect as I know it can be really daunting. Winners don't quit and quitters don't win. It's the first phrase for me Cheerio. | |
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| jackiechan 2002-06-18, 4:22 am |
| onoski, Know the following and be competent in:
NT/win2000
any flavor of Unix
Lotus Notes
Netware
Know these four areas and you can find a job anywhere in admin/support/helpdesk. | |
| onoski 2002-06-18, 4:24 am |
| Thanks, for the link Frank as I have been visiting this site more than a year now. Thanks, once more as I am certainly not going to let negative feedbacks put me off. | |
| onoski 2002-06-18, 4:29 am |
| [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jackiechan
onoski, Know the following and be competent in:
NT/win2000
any flavor of Unix
Lotus Notes
Netware
Know these four areas and you can find a job anywhere in admin/support/helpdesk.
Thanks, jackiechan as I am very well rounded in these areas listed above apart from Unix, which I only started looking into for about six months now. Linux Red Hat, and am finding it pretty interesting and challenging too. How well vast are you in these areas Jackiechan? | |
| TW2001 2002-06-18, 5:24 am |
| This is coming from a guy who has never had an IT job. A guy who is flippin burgers. Jackie, your going to point out what people should do? Give a break.
I say the whole friggin board boycotts this loser. | |
|
| haha i just had a good laugh.
wanna know why?
check his posts...
start with failing 210 with a score of 360, then magically pass all tests in 2.5 months. this is around september.
fastforward to end of january 2002 with his losing his job. him asking if he is worth $90 dollars/hour in albania, then lowering it to 35...
2 days later on feb 1st, it is now this
quote:
CCNA and MCSE are yesterday's certifications
<-DUMP?
quote:
I am a computer science graduate and I am finding it had to compete with people who have more experience and certifications
<-read on
but notice just a week earlier he said this.
quote:
I am 43 years old. I have close to 20 years experience in I.T. I currently work for a government agency doing database and unix support. I have skills in Unix, Crytal reports, Betrieve and some programming.
<--- 20 years of IT exp! take this with the previous about not enough experience to compete? (for senior lvl management perhaps, but it should be no problem settling for something less than that, but he settled all the way to McDonald? is his supposedly experience, insight and what not BS?
then we find the root of his discontent.
quote:
If the market is turning then why am I working as a trainee manager at McDonalds
man, I seriously thought its like an inside joke you guys have about him working at mcD but haha this is funny. so basically he is saying in this post is that HE can not compete. a post of self pity.
I get it now, thanks for sparking my interest and keeping me busy while I watch korea vs italy. | |
| wbafrank 2002-06-18, 7:03 am |
| After reading Mikeop post he should change his name to "Ronald" 'cause he is a right clown .... | |
| Gareth Leung 2002-06-18, 7:20 am |
| If he's 43 than maybe my math is bad. From his profile, he said he borned in 1970.  | |
|
| HMMMM
Guess I'm dead and just haunting this board
Ed
A+ Question of the Day Guy
 | |
| TW2001 2002-06-18, 9:20 am |
| ROFL...
Maybe he`s not a liar...
Maybe he`s the PRETENDER! | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-18, 2:46 pm |
| quote:
The market has a nack for weeding out the weak. To be unemployed for so long means that something is wrong with you not the certs or degrees you have.
Where I live, almost no employers are hiring except for Microsoft, and they require a BSc degree, meaning that if one is unemployed and does not have a BSc, one will remain in that state for the forseeable future. Doesn't mean a defective personality or anything like that, just that there aren't enough jobs to go around at the moment.
Anyone who isn't brilliant, however, would be silly to enter the I.T. field now, because the days of plenty for all, instead of just the best, are over. There are other occupations that are much more lucrative now than I.T., and don't require a 180-point IQ for success (such as pharmacy and nursing).
RD | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 7:05 pm |
| Okay jackiechan, I've agreed with all of your recent threads because though negative they are debating issues. However you have to draw the line when you tell an unseen audience to give up on IT if they have not been employed for 6 months because there is something wrong with them not the industry. You are not in a position to make sweeping judgements like that. Furthermore, if you were to properly gauge the state of the IT sector then you would realise that your statement is fundamentally inaccurate.
DivxGuy, again I urge caution that you may be overstressing what is required of one to obtain employment in the IT sector. In all the whole world over there are but a handful of people with IQ's of 160 - 180 is to all intents and purposes unheard of. Yes, a degree may be important in your experience and yes certain recruiters may think they're great but in my opinion they are of secondary importance to most recruiters. There will indeed be a lot of people that move into a different career. | |
| odonata 2002-06-18, 7:30 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
....
Anyone who isn't brilliant, however, would be silly to enter the I.T. field now, because the days of plenty for all, instead of just the best, are over. There are other occupations that are much more lucrative now than I.T., and don't require a 180-point IQ for success (such as pharmacy and nursing).
RD
Pharmacy?! I almost went to pharmacy school, (and am proud to say that I did pretty darn good on my PCAT's as well, 87%), but I think Pharmacy is at least on the same level of programming if not more difficult! What I am saying is that Pharmacy is a difficult field and not as easy as what you just implied. Yes, Pharmacy field is huge right now and pharmacists are needed badly, so that is definitely another field to look into (only if you are willing to go to school for 4-8 years, depending on what degree you may or may not already have).
I know this discussion isn't on Pharmacy, but just had to say that | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-18, 7:39 pm |
| quote:
DivxGuy, again I urge caution that you may be overstressing what is required of one to obtain employment in the IT sector.
Perhaps I was overstating the case just a little by suggesting 180 points, but the fact remains that right now, Microsoft is the only employer in the Northwest doing any significant hiring, and they only accept the cream (it used to be 2% of the resumes they received, and with the downturn, it's probably even less).
An ordinary person can get a job in the I.T. sector, but it will be menial work, like simple software installs for or moving equipment, for modest wages. There are other occupations that will reward an equivalent effort with a much better living.
BTW I think a lot of I.T.-related jobs have been exported from the U.S. to other countries in the last year (the Washington Times has an article on the subject today).
RD | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-18, 7:46 pm |
| quote:
almost went to pharmacy school, (and am proud to say that I did pretty darn good on my PCAT's as well, 87%), but I think Pharmacy is at least on the same level of programming if not more difficult!
Not to offend the pharmacy grads, but to be a very good programmer requires that one possess one of the relatively rare high IQs I just mentioned. Almost anyone can learn to hack out dialog-based applications in Visual Basic, but to be able to conceive, design, and produce a product like Doom or Microsoft Word takes real genius.
RD | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 7:47 pm |
| Hmm, the article is biased against government and presents no concrete examples to back it up. There is noone quoted - which I thought was the whole point of journalism. It is moderately interesting but I won't linger on it. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-18, 7:59 pm |
| DivxGuy, what you say about IQ is true. Fact. Where are you supposed to write this down on your CV? Genius was required to produce Word? Never heard that one. I thought it was teams of developers and testers doing the daily grind. MS products have often been accused of being rushed out and containing bugs. Hate all those service packs. Maybe the genius is the marketing because we still all buy it. Maybe the genius is stifling the competition. MS don't do much original - so not much genius there. Heard any good lawyer jokes recently? | |
| odonata 2002-06-18, 8:00 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by RichardJW
Hmm, the article is biased against government and presents no concrete examples to back it up. There is noone quoted - which I thought was the whole point of journalism. It is moderately interesting but I won't linger on it.
It's from the Washington Times... enough said | |
| jackiechan 2002-06-18, 9:18 pm |
| All I know is that the longer it takes you to find a job in I.T the less employable you are. An I.T job is a short term, insecure, unstable occupation. You pay a high price in being over optimistic. | |
| uoparah 2002-06-20, 7:31 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by RichardJW
Okay jackiechan, I've agreed with all of your recent threads because though negative they are debating issues. However you have to draw the line when you tell an unseen audience to give up on IT if they have not been employed for 6 months because there is something wrong with them not the industry. You are not in a position to make sweeping judgements like that. Furthermore, if you were to properly gauge the state of the IT sector then you would realise that your statement is fundamentally inaccurate.
DivxGuy, again I urge caution that you may be overstressing what is required of one to obtain employment in the IT sector. In all the whole world over there are but a handful of people with IQ's of 160 - 180 is to all intents and purposes unheard of. Yes, a degree may be important in your experience and yes certain recruiters may think they're great but in my opinion they are of secondary importance to most recruiters. There will indeed be a lot of people that move into a different career.
I agree with you totally...anyone with a 160-180 IQ would not be in IT, they would probably be either in rocket science or trying to figure out how to oust Bill Gates' reign on the industry...
I also agree that a lot of people (like myself) will definitely be moving out of the IT field and quite soon. The time and energy I would put into getting myself up-to-date for a sys admin position would get me another degree plus [hopefully] into an Ivy-League law school. My future would look alot brighter in that direction than this madness.
By the way, what IQ score is considered 'superior' intellect? Just curious... | |
| BreakWind 2002-06-20, 7:45 am |
| Superior intellect is above 130 and genius is above 150.
Asians average IQ 130
Whites average IQ 120
Blacks average IQ 100
I hope this is useful. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-20, 7:52 am |
| quote:
By the way, what IQ score is considered 'superior' intellect? Just curious...
By the law of averages, anything over IQ 100 would be considered 'superior.' The average IQ is 100 - it was never meant to be graded according to ethnicity. The proposition that black people score lower was hotly debated a few years back. Nonetheless, it was proposed by people with far right leanings in the US. There is no doubt however that there are such differences, but probably what is the case is that certain groups score higher in one area to the detriment of another and vice versa. I don't go in for these IQ tests because I found that doing several of them tends to up my score considerably. Einstein's IQ has been estimated at 140. | |
| jeff_j_black 2002-06-20, 11:30 am |
| j'chan: Why was I not suprised to see a thread titled: "Give Up" started by none other? Persistence, attitude, being adaptive, being resourceful. Whatever job you do get, be the best, be indispensible, be resonsible. No one in ANY field of work owes you a job!!! You owe it to yourself to look in the mirror and take responsiblity for your life and start making yourself into someone that a company wants to hire. Your lucky to have a job at McDonalds, now what can you make of it? | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-06-20, 11:40 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by RichardJW
I don't go in for these IQ tests because I found that doing several of them tends to up my score considerably. Einstein's IQ has been estimated at 140.
I have noticed the same thing. the last I.Q. test I took said my I.Q. was 158. It thus follows that I am more intelligent than Einstein, right? | |
| wbafrank 2002-06-20, 11:43 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by The VMS Kid I am more intelligent than Einstein, right?
Yeah - he's dead so we all are!!! | |
| jackiechan 2002-06-20, 2:53 pm |
| Having a high IQ and having MCSE,CCNA,CCNP,CCA,CLP,MCSD,A+
,CISSP, etc does not guarantee that you can put food on the table these days. It is better to move on. | |
| wbafrank 2002-06-20, 2:59 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by jackiechan Having a high IQ and having MCSE,CCNA,CCNP,CCA,CLP,MCSD,A+
,CISSP, etc does not guarantee that you can put food on the table these days. It is better to move on.
I think the question Jeff_J_Black and the whole board wants to know is have you put all those certificates to practical use - for example have you worked in the IT Sector or did you get them out of a Childs "Happy Meal"? | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-20, 3:06 pm |
| I can't speak for jackiechan, but I worked in the I.T. sector for 7 years (1994-2001), and I haven't had an interview since late August. After Sept. 11, the bottom just fell out of the market, and I haven't had any employment leads at all, and in fact, many of the recruiters I used to deal with are gone, and I suspect that they were laid off due to lack of business.
There is definitely a deep slump in the I.T. industry, and when it will end, if ever, is anyone's guess. I sincerely hope I'm not throwing good money and time after bad by continuing to augment my I.T. skills.
RD | |
| uoparah 2002-06-20, 4:09 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by jackiechan
Having a high IQ and having MCSE,CCNA,CCNP,CCA,CLP,MCSD,A+
,CISSP, etc does not guarantee that you can put food on the table these days. It is better to move on.
Man, you aint tellin me nothin...
I'm just glad that I got this reality check at 22 instead of 32...at least any other field I go into the certs will look fancy and nice on the rez. | |
|
| losers give up because that is the only option they can come up with. And I say good riddance. It means more interesting people in our industry who will have a valuable contribution from which we will all learn.
Quit all you want. Just don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya 
quote:
Originally posted by jackiechan
For the unemployed for more than 6 months, give up the I.T chase. The market has a nack for weeding out the weak. To be unemployed for so long means that something is wrong with you not the certs or degrees you have. Find another job in another feild. The I.T world is not a secure or stable industry to be in. Only the strong survive in this jungle.
| |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
There is definitely a deep slump in the I.T. industry
RD
I disagree. I too lost my job as you may remember. Three weeks later, I had another one at the same paylevel. For those three weeks that I was unemployed, I taught two 1 week classes, so I worked 2 out of those three weeks with no prep time to look for work other than a week-end's worth of checking out online help wanted sites to get two quick teaching gigs.
Bottom line: some geographical areas are hit hard, but others still have opportunities for the taking. I did not work in my state the past three weeks, I had to travel, but I worked and I made money for my family. It wasn't fun, but it sure beats staying home and feeling sorry for myself.
If your local market cannot support your skills, move! Commute! It is easier to find a job when you already have one, than when you don't have one... | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by jackiechan
Having a high IQ and having MCSE,CCNA,CCNP,CCA,CLP,MCSD,A+
,CISSP, etc does not guarantee that you can put food on the table these days. It is better to move on.
yes, actually it does  | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-20, 5:11 pm |
| I don't know about the others here, but in my case, I'd give up on the I.T. field because the returns are so much less than other occupations offer for an equivalent effort. For example, I read the other day that many new nursing graduates are being offered $US 65K straight out of school, a sum that I couldn't make even if I could find a job, despite a 2-year accredited diploma, 7 years of dev experience, and all 3 premium Microsoft certifications.
Where I live, I.T. training is valued so little that often even minimum wage is seen as too high a compensation rate. That's a strong clue that there's too many people competing for too few positions, if there ever was one.
RD | |
|
| quote:
[i]Where I live, I.T. training is valued so little that often even minimum wage is seen as too high a compensation rate.
RD [/B]
You keep answering your own question: your market is obviously dead at this stage. Move on to another market that needs your skills! With all your certs, you should never even remotely consider becoming a freakin' nurse...
I make a lot more money than your entry-level nurse example, and I don't have as many certs as you do for pete's sake | |
| TxBear 2002-06-20, 5:15 pm |
| by Greg Neilson
6/12/2002 -- As you might have seen from my previous columns, I'm a big believer in the value of certification. I have some myself and I'm continually encouraging my staff to keep moving on their planned certifications. However, due to the many negative comments about certification I've seen posted here and elsewhere recently, I've begun to wonder whether many people have too many expectations about its value.
A certification is a great asset. But just as the shiny new convertible depreciates the minute you drive it away, so too does your certification. Within two to four years of earning a cert, either the vendor will explicitly make it obsolete or the underlying technology has changed so much that you'll need to recertifiy to demonstrate your knowledge. Therefore, you need to be clear that once you do embark on a certification path, it won't hold its value forever and you'll need to regularly update it.
I still get e-mails from people asking about career opportunities in IT once they complete a certification program. Unfortunately these folks seem to have unrealistic expectations about the ease of entering IT, let alone the types of roles that they are qualified to perform once their certification is completed. There is no short cut to IT riches, and I'm not sure that there ever was. I don't know if it was ever true that certification alone is the ticket to earning $60-70K+, but it sure isn't the case anymore! The only way I can explain this is that, in the past, some of the really early adopters of certification had nothing but their own experience and the product manuals (if they were lucky!) to use to prepare for exams. Then, when usage of these products started booming, those folks who had extensive experience were in huge demand. In many cases they had completed the certification, but this was simply a demonstration of their theoretical knowledge -- it was their extensive practical knowledge that employers were excited about. From a distance, perhaps others got the mistaken impression that it was the certification alone that was their source of value to employers and customers, but I would have hoped that these days this myth was largely dispelled. In my work at XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX's sister magazine, Microsoft Certified Professional Magazine, I know that the editorial staff have tried very hard over the last few years to pass on the message in their annual salary survey results that experience is a very important factor in the salary levels reported. However, I suspect that in many cases people are too busy looking at the dollar numbers in the tables to read any of the accompanying text!
The last area of confusion is to those who appear to confuse a certification with a career. Someone who now wants to work as a DBA on say Oracle, DB2 or SQL Server needs to know that there is so much more to these roles than just the requirements of these certification programs alone. It's one thing to know all of the wonderful commands and their switches, but it's another altogether to know what you should use in a given situation. Education and certification can assist in giving us the latest theoretical knowledge, but there's no substitute for years in the field. In this case, building a career as a DBA is not the same as completing a certification in a database product.
The same is particularly true of the developer arena. Most programming exams focus on language and class library implementation/API details, yet experience in the the art of good analysis, design and testing is probably more important in a successful career as a developer than just the code itself. In other words, just because you get an MCSD, it doesn't mean you're qualified to be an application developer.
Completing a certification can be a valuable asset in your career, but it alone won't and can't take you very far. (For anyone that thinks I'm just down on certification, I also believe that the same is true of a degree -- you really need the practical experience in combination with the theoretical knowledge to be valuable to an employer. | |
| Nicole 2002-06-20, 5:54 pm |
| You know what? Job hunting sucks no matter what profession you're in. Yep, IT is a competitive industry, but it's also a very attractive one because you get a nice salary for not a whole lot of work.
The people who whine and complain about IT jobs usually either a) don't have the experience to back up their inflated expectations, b) have a very narrow skill set, or c) have such a lousy, arrogant attitude that no one wants to hire them anyway. A few people live in places where the market is just plain dead. (DivxGuy, I agree with Freak -- time to move outta that town!)
Solutions:
A) Evaluate the market where you are, not the articles in magazines that exist on the suffrance of the certification market. Talk to people in IT -- in your job market -- and not just about whethere they will hire you.
b) No one wants a one trick horse. Learn something new. Learn something *different.* Decide what it is that you do well and you know that makes you valuable and SELL it -- in the pool hall after work, to your friends, at the interview, *anywhere*.
C) Knock the chip off your shoulder. No one wants a problem employee, and that's exactly what you look like.
Some of you may remember me fussing about my own job hunt not so long ago. Why? Because it's a lousy process no matter how you slice it. But when it comes down to it, I had 8 interviews and 6 job offers in 3 months, all of which were looking for a person with a broad range of experience (not necessarily a LOT of experience) and niche skills. I don't think my whopping "MCP" cert had much to do with it. | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-20, 6:11 pm |
| quote:
You keep answering your own question: your market is obviously dead at this stage. Move on to another market that needs your skills! With all your certs, you should never even remotely consider becoming a freakin' nurse...
After Sept. 11, the tech labor market imploded, and I haven't heard so much as a peep from any potential employers, and I read in various tech industry journals that I'm not alone (there are people with degrees from Ivy League universities driving forklifts now).
Not being an American, I can't just pack up and leave for greener pastures that might exist in the Northeastern U.S. There are parts of Canada that are doing better than Vancouver, but they're not doing that much better, and the cost of moving would be prohibitive unless I had a definite offer, even if I was willing to go to a place like Toronto or Calgary. Since I'm not, the only thing I can do is get a part-time job to make ends meet, try and keep my skills up, and hope that the I.T. downturn ends at some point in the future. I'm willing to relocate to points in the U.S., but at the moment, employers are "only considering local candidates".
quote:
I make a lot more money than your entry-level nurse example, and I don't have as many certs as you do for pete's sake
I think your Masters degree has something to do with this situation. BTW the only I.T. personnel who make $US 65K in Canada are at the higher levels, such as team leaders, crack systems analysts, superprogrammers, and managers (which is why there was such a huge outflow of tech skills out of Canada during the last U.S. boom).
Maybe I can do some work on projects of my own that have market value; a company I once worked for started out that way, and within 8 years was valued at $CDN 1 million.
RD | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-20, 6:20 pm |
| quote:
The same is particularly true of the developer arena. Most programming exams focus on language and class library implementation/API details, yet experience in the the art of good analysis, design and testing is probably more important in a successful career as a developer than just the code itself. In other words, just because you get an MCSD, it doesn't mean you're qualified to be an application developer.
Too true. It takes years. I've worked with people that parade themselves as senior programmers because they have five years experience. However, 'years' don't necessarily evaluate to much. The truth is that if you are serious then you end up bringing your work home and doing a whole deal of independent research and study if you wish to get ahead in this particular field. You are of course not financially rewarded for doing so. There are no shortcuts of any kind whatsoever. If you continually feel dissatisfied with what you know then you are probably on the right track to gaining expertise, otherwise you are not. That all said, the project lifecycle, the design and testing aspects, certainly can and are taught to some extent - this is not something that relies only on experience. | |
| kappagamma698 2002-06-20, 6:27 pm |
| I think this whole thread was started to get some people out of IT so there would be less competition for Jackie Chan and his flippin burger skills would land him an IT job.
From what I hear I dont think the guy is ever going to land a job I would not hire him even if I was looking and he had the skills I wanted.
Also DivxGuy 65000 for nursing? Well I dont know what you are smoking but my fiance just finished her nuring and did not start there (it was an LPN) but where she works does not start there for even an RN not even close, to get that kind of money in nursing right out of school you must be a Nurse Practicaner. That artical you read is doing the same thing that the IT articals are doing saying that you will get 65000 if you have your MCSE, they are getting people in the training courses and then when you are there or get out and find out it is not true it is too late.
I would say that the only reason an artical is saying that about nursing is that the field is in need of alot of staff that is not coming in.
But when ever you read anything saying you will make this if you go into this field fresh out of college they are giving you a line of BS and if you believe it then they have done their job but when you cant get one at the end of the day they dont care. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-20, 6:33 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy:
Maybe I can do some work on projects of my own that have market value; a company I once worked for started out that way, and within 8 years was valued at $CDN 1 million.
If things are that bad, (and they sound so bad that they give a whole new meaning to hell BTW) then maybe yes you should do that. Produce some shareware or something. Maybe it won't make you millions but it could be a source of income.
In many ways I feel the same way as you, but I don't paint such gloomy pictures. I am honestly surprised that someone with that many years of experience and those certifications can't haul himself in a whole bunch of contract work.
You also mentioned 9:11. It is not so much 9:11 than the bursting of the dot com bubble. Things were in a downward trend before that, layoffs in the UK are going to continue in the IT sector but for the latter reason. | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-20, 6:52 pm |
| It's not hell, although it is discouraging at times. BTW it is probably hard for those of you who hail from more-developed economies just how underdeveloped Canada is outside its main economic centers.
It is true that the Washington tech economy was in a downturn prior to Sept. 11, but just prior to that date, I was still finding there was some employer interest(I had had a second interview in mid-August, and for a few days thought I might be working again). Post-Sept. 11 was like the aftermath of the apocalypse - no employers other than Microsoft (which requires a minimum of a 4-year degree) were doing any substantial hiring.
quote:
Also DivxGuy 65000 for nursing? Well I dont know what you are smoking
I'm a non-smoker.  BTW I think I read that in an MSNBC article, and that figure wouldn't be for every area, probably just for the ones with the higher cost of living.
RD | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-20, 7:01 pm |
| quote:
no employers other than Microsoft (which requires a minimum of a 4-year degree) were doing any substantial hiring.
What kind of degree? Any kind of degree or a computer science degree? Did Bill Gates ever get a degree? My understanding is that he didn't. He started one but then decided to reverse engineer an IBM BASIC interpreter. Maybe this is inaccurate? Why do Microsoft require a degree on top of all of their own premium certifications? This sounds like complete hypocrisy. | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-20, 7:08 pm |
| Microsoft looks for science degrees, because in their experience, they are the best predictors of intelligence and performance.
Their own certifications are too easy to get to be a predictor of performance.
Bill Gates doesn't have a degree, but he does have an IQ in the 99th+ percentile, and if you, too can boast that, Microsoft would like to hear from you.
RD | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-20, 7:40 pm |
| quote:
Bill Gates doesn't have a degree, but he does have an IQ in the 99th+ percentile, and if you, too can boast that, Microsoft would like to hear from you.
Should we join MENSA then?quote:
It's not hell, although it is discouraging at times. BTW it is probably hard for those of you who hail from more-developed economies just how underdeveloped Canada is outside its main economic centers.
I got interested and have just done a cross comparison of jobs on offer in the UK compared to Canada and I can tell you that the UK looks prehistoric by comparison. In fact worse than prehistoric - something like prehistoric with respect to prehistoric. The UK site is advertising exactly one job for a developer, actually a tester. I used 'developer' as a keyword for the Canada site and the search engine came back with 4 pages, though quite a few were the same job - as these search engines tend to do. Anyways, these jobs were all about promotion for examplequote:
The DE is a technical role with the mission of engaging with the broad community of developers in the districts and subsidiaries and driving excitement around the Microsoft .NET platform and tools (VS.NET and MSDN).
The Fit:
Four year degree in Computer Science, Engineering or related discipline
2+ years of customer interaction in a technical role
Good presentation skills
Solid knowledge of software development tools and programming models. Specific knowledge of J2EE or Linux a plus
Current programming skills a strong advantage
Travel required
Some jobs were asking for an 'advanced degree', others were asking for MCSE, MCSD. Nowhere did I see IQ mentioned. | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-20, 7:47 pm |
| quote:
Alex: "For $150, who's the smartest guy at Microsoft?"
OFB:* "Uh, me."
Alex: "Correct. For $250, who's the smartest guy in the U.S.?"
OFB: "Uh. me."
Alex: "Correct. For $350, who's the smartest guy on the planet?"
OFB: "Uh, still me Alex."
Alex: " Correct. Finally, for maximum points, who's the smartest guy
ever?"
OFB: "Uh, that would be me Alex."
Alex: "Correct! Now, for bonus points, what's your favourite colour?"
OFB: "Uh, blue, no red. I don't know how technical you are, but...No,
that's stupid. What an incredibly stupid question! Alex you are just
too stupid! Stop wasting my time. God, why do I bother! "
* OFB = Our Friend Bill | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
After Sept. 11, the tech labor market imploded, and I haven't heard so much as a peep from any potential employers, and I read in various tech industry journals that I'm not alone (there are people with degrees from Ivy League universities driving forklifts now).
Not being an American, I can't just pack up and leave for greener pastures that might exist in the Northeastern U.S. There are parts of Canada that are doing better than Vancouver, but they're not doing that much better, and the cost of moving would be prohibitive unless I had a definite offer, even if I was willing to go to a place like Toronto or Calgary. Since I'm not, the only thing I can do is get a part-time job to make ends meet, try and keep my skills up, and hope that the I.T. downturn ends at some point in the future. I'm willing to relocate to points in the U.S., but at the moment, employers are "only considering local candidates".
I think your Masters degree has something to do with this situation. BTW the only I.T. personnel who make $US 65K in Canada are at the higher levels, such as team leaders, crack systems analysts, superprogrammers, and managers (which is why there was such a huge outflow of tech skills out of Canada during the last U.S. boom).
Maybe I can do some work on projects of my own that have market value; a company I once worked for started out that way, and within 8 years was valued at $CDN 1 million.
RD
Let's see... my Master's degrees are in Linguistics and Education. I work as a Network Engineer, so i am not too sure that they were of any help. My MCSEs and CCNA were more what they were looking for
Ivy Leaguers working a forklift? I taught at MIT, and I can assure you that not *one* of my students are now employed in a loading dock -- although several work for NASA. They may be developing forklift to use in zero gravity environments?
As for being an American, I am not one either, but I still packed up and moved here when the economy in my own country was not up to par. If you want it bad enough, you can make it happen.
There is a company in Canada called XWAVE. Did you check them out? I am sure that they could find something for a guy with a skillset as diverse as yours.
Finally, the offer still stands if you want to write study guides for MCSEFreak Press. You won't become a millionaire -- although that would be cool -- but you will have something else to put on your resume
Either way, best of luck to you. | |
| Nicole 2002-06-20, 10:14 pm |
| quote:
Microsoft looks for science degrees, because in their experience, they are the best predictors of intelligence and performance.
I agree with the performance part, but I never noticed science and math and engineering majors being in smarter, they just applied themselves better and worked there tails off.
quote:
Bill Gates doesn't have a degree, but he does have an IQ in the 99th+ percentile, and if you, too can boast that, Microsoft would like to hear from you.
Oh please. I have an IQ in the 99+ percentile to, and you know what it means in real life? Diddley-squat. Some of the dumbest people I know are the most successful. I put more faith in personality tests... which is to say, not much.
You know what impresses me? People who have TALENT -- something that'll never show up on an IQ test. | |
| jackiechan 2002-06-21, 12:03 am |
| DivxGuy, you have good certs and experience. I wish I had your certs. I am surprised that you are unemployed. I don't think IQ and a CS degree has anything to do with your situation. Perhaps it is not your technical skills that is lacking but your attitude, teamwork, communication skills, anti-social behavior that is not getting you a job. The problem with being too smart is that you think you know it all which can cause your downfall. | |
| uoparah 2002-06-21, 12:35 am |
| Nicole, I think you definitely make a good point with the "broad range of skills" thing...that is exactly what they are looking for. Maybe even in lieu of the 5-7 years of experience all the headhunters advertise. Also we all know fully well that personality matters almost as much as anything, especially in the business sector, where you have to be able to get along with people. But I think this only comes into play WHEN YOU GET INTERVIEWED. If your resume is being pushed by headhunters and they cant even secure you an interview, then what is to be made of that.... | |
| uoparah 2002-06-21, 12:40 am |
| ....But Freak, I have to disagree with you almost uniformly across the board. You are grossly understating the state of the IT market as we stand today. One flaw with people intrinsically is that they have a hard time seeing the plight or situation of another person unless they or someone close to them is in the same boat. You were unemployed for THREE WEEKS!!!! And found another job! I dont know what your skill set is, but there MUST be a large amount of luck that played into that, when you have people with 10+ years of exp. who cant get new jobs. What would even make you an authority on this matter?
But in the end, I think my thinking is almost parallel to DivxGuy (except for the IQ thing--there are alot of people with high on IQ but low on GOOD SENSE!!!). We arent saying that with more knowledge you cant get yourself a position (possibly a good one too), but the amount of work to get that job in IT would get you alot further in other fields. For example, I have a 4-year degree in CS (although not from the greatest of schools), two years of tech support/prod support experience, and a SCSA 7 cert. Now, if these things cant even get me a freakin lead operator job, what else would I have to learn to get a junior admin or Level II spot? What, CCNA cert? Oracle certs? Shell scripting? Apache web server? Tivoli Storage Manager? etc, etc? Man, why should I go through all that and spend AT LEAST another year to make what I was making a year ago? That math just doesnt add up to me. That time could get me a degree in another field with a little more (not absolute)
STABILITY!!!!!!!!
which I have learned is a little more important than quick bucks any day. | |
| BreakWind 2002-06-21, 4:20 am |
| Freak says that the ones that have sent out over 1000 CVs and have all the certs but still cannot get a job should give up for more "interesting" people like himself. How arrogant is that. I have seen Freak's certs and it more of quantity rather than quality. Why doesn't he have CCIE if he thinks he is so smart? Employers who know little about true quality I.T personnel must have been impressed with all the logos he put on his resume. I would choose a CCIE over Freak any time of day. | |
| BreakWind 2002-06-21, 4:30 am |
| Freak even has the nerve to ask some who has all the MS certs to write for MCSEFreak press. DivxGuy you are down on your luck. I hope it turns around for you. Don't listen to this over confident, pompous, over valued average moderator who calls himself a freak. | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-06-21, 5:12 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by BreakWind
Freak says that the ones that have sent out over 1000 CVs and have all the certs but still cannot get a job should give up for more "interesting" people like himself. How arrogant is that. I have seen Freak's certs and it more of quantity rather than quality. Why doesn't he have CCIE if he thinks he is so smart? Employers who know little about true quality I.T personnel must have been impressed with all the logos he put on his resume. I would choose a CCIE over Freak any time of day.
Freak knows what he is doing. Maybe that's why he is actually EMPLOYED in IT rather than moaning about how tough things are. Break Wind is an apt name for you . . . what a lot of hot air! | |
| onoski 2002-06-21, 5:59 am |
| I can't believe how arrogant some of you guys are on this site. However, just because you are a lucky few in IT being employed does not call for all sort of childish replies. Remember, the IT market in particular is tough and it would be nice for some of you guys to acknowledge this and stop being big headed. I believe that those who strive would eventually win. I think we need to be encouraging and not discouraging. | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-06-21, 6:09 am |
| The market is tough right now. But getting pissed off because some of us have jobs is not productive. If you want to work, your time would be better spent trying to learn more and intensifying your job search. If you are determined, you will get it. Moaning about how unfortunate you are will not help. I find it ironic that those of us who have the best attitudes about this whole situation tend to be the ones who are employed, rather than letting things get to us. Maybe that's why we are successful in the first place, huh? | |
| BreakWind 2002-06-21, 7:41 am |
| People like Freak love to kick a man when he is down. It is like the employed vs the unemployed. | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-06-21, 7:44 am |
| On the contrary, freak goes out of his way to help people. As for the study guides at his site, the writers get 50% of the profits and anyone who has an yen to do so can write them. Freak does not kick people when they are down, but he is too positive to allow himself to wallow in self-pity, which is probably no small reason as to why he is a success. I have seen nothing but positive comments from him, unlike that of many others here. | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by BreakWind
Freak says that the ones that have sent out over 1000 CVs and have all the certs but still cannot get a job should give up for more "interesting" people like himself. How arrogant is that. I have seen Freak's certs and it more of quantity rather than quality. Why doesn't he have CCIE if he thinks he is so smart? Employers who know little about true quality I.T personnel must have been impressed with all the logos he put on his resume. I would choose a CCIE over Freak any time of day.
I welcome your message, and respect your opinion, even though it is rather agressive in nature towards me.
I never said that I should get a job over someone else. I do not know where you got that from. You think my certs are more qantity than quality. As far as I know you don't know me nor have you had the opportunity to talk to me in person to gauge whether my certs have value or not. It is easy to lash out, but you have to back it up.
Why don't I have a CCIE? Because I have not had the time to acquire that skill set. I believe in real work experience before I go for a cert. You would hire a CCIE over me? Why? We don't do the same work! That's a stupid statement if I ever read one! If you need someone to work as a CCIE, then by all means don't hire me! Heck, I would not apply for that position anyway.
Oh, and by the way, I do not put logos on my resume...
I guess next time you want to be rude and post a nastygram, at least have the decency to do it well. It helps get people interested in what you have to say.
BreakWind? I think your name is well-chosen! | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by uoparah
....But Freak, I have to disagree with you almost uniformly across the board. You are grossly understating the state of the IT market as we stand today. One flaw with people intrinsically is that they have a hard time seeing the plight or situation of another person unless they or someone close to them is in the same boat. You were unemployed for THREE WEEKS!!!! And found another job! I dont know what your skill set is, but there MUST be a large amount of luck that played into that, when you have people with 10+ years of exp. who cant get new jobs. What would even make you an authority on this matter?
LOL
I have a hard time seeing someone else's issues? I got laid off, for Pete's sake! How much more first hand experience with that issue do you think I should have?
Indeed I was unemployed for three weeks, which means that there are jobs out there for those who want to go get them, and CREATE their own luck. I am no authority, nor pretended to be one. I do know that it is easy to accept situations and get into a rut. I was trying to show that if you refuse the bad luck and give it your all, there are opportunities out there. You think a new job just fell into my lap? You have no idea how many interviews I went to, how many miles I drove and flew to meet with decision makers. Yeah, I got another job, but that is a result of my hard work and perseverance. I refuse to be put down by situations. I worked hard to be where I am now, and I am not going to let a bad situation keep me down. I was ready to move my entire family out of state to go get another job, as opposed to staying where I am and lament about the lack of jobs. Luck? I don;t believe in luck. I believe in the luck you make for yourself. Call me arrogant if you must, but at the end of the day, I think I proved that my way works - at least for me. | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by BreakWind
Freak even has the nerve to ask some who has all the MS certs to write for MCSEFreak press. DivxGuy you are down on your luck. I hope it turns around for you. Don't listen to this over confident, pompous, over valued average moderator who calls himself a freak.
Geez, what a bad guy I am. I am trying to get the guy some money and experience for his resume. I am such a worthless bastard...
Over confident? Pompous? Over valued? Maybe. But I don't whine, and I make it happen. That always pisses off those who live their life saying "I wish". Sorry, I do not wish, I want or I don't. And when I want, I do what it take to get there. Over confident? Maybe, but I certainly think that a positive outlook helps bring success.
BTW, I do not call myseld freak. It is a nickname I was given by my students. I miss that bunch of guys, and the nickname stuck... not that you care anyway, since you seem more intent on being negative than on providing solutions. | |
| odonata 2002-06-21, 8:24 am |
| I have to agree with Freak.
You create your own luck!!
People always cry when they have submitted hundreds of resumes, but a lot of these people do not take the time to fine tune their resumes for the position and follow-up if possible. I am not saying this will do the trick, because my husband has put in lots of effort for getting job, but hasn't even gotten an interview yet. It is of my opinion as well that too many people rely on a head hunter/recruiter to find the job for them, there are just too many people in line, you need to find the job on your own.
Good Luck to everyone searching! I know I am searching too! | |
| BreakWind 2002-06-21, 8:50 am |
| Freak, do you gave a man a fish or teach him to fish? | |
| Nicole 2002-06-21, 9:01 am |
| uoparah,
I guess I wasn't just talking about personality and getting along with people when I talk about attitude. I believe that your attitude affects not only what others think of you, but how you behave. In other words, if you walk around with an "IT sucks, I'll never get a job, I'm stuck working at McDonalds" attitude, that's exactly what you'll achieve. On the other end, "wow, I'm such an awesome tech, people should be so lucky to hire me" is not likely to land you a job either, because no employer will be good enough for you.
Freak calls this creating you own luck -- I call it being in the best place to take advantage of any crumbs of opportunity.
As for the employer end of things, attitude is also reflected in your resume and cover letter. You don't even realize how much because to you, it's just a piece of paper. To someone going through a stack of resumes, that's all they know about you. Tone of voice and the way you choose words is going to determine what they think of you -- not just what's on the page.
Headhunters don't push YOUR resume very hard, they push a stack of resumes really hard. They can be useful, but a headhunter will never find you an unsolicited job, or impress the guy in the grocery store that was just thinking about adding a new IT person. Keep them in your toolbox, but don't rely on them. | |
| odonata 2002-06-21, 9:09 am |
| Also, look at the people on these boards who are getting interviews and jobs (like Nicole and Freak). They are very positive people, and like Nicole said, they are not going around with a rotten attitude about how "IT sucks" if IT sucks, then get a different career, why do you even want to work in a career that you think sucks?!
I know freak has his master's degree (2 even?) That just shows hard work and dilligence (sp?).
I feel very lucky to have gotten an interview yesterday, but you know - I just completed my master's degree, work full time, plus I have passed three Oracle Application Developer exams at during that times as well, and have a CIW P. Now, I seriously don't think I could keep up this pace like I have for the past 2 years, but I put in my hard work, and I think potential employers will see that in my resume that I can balance many things and have been exposed to a wide range of technologies (I'm a programmer by the way).
again, best of luck to everyone looking! | |
| jeff_j_black 2002-06-21, 9:22 am |
| I guess this thread could be summed up by:
Those who make things happen for themselves regardless of circumstance, taking any oppotunity to improve their lot.
and...
Those who will look to anyone or anything to blame or rationalize why they can't succeed.
No one but yourself can put you in one bracket or the other, so don't bother writing some flaming message about what a pompous XXX I am for saying this, unless you want to show us all which bracket you are in.
Damn it's cool how those 'XXX' just magically appear! What if I was talking about a donkey! | |
|
| LOL
Jeff, I agree with you 100%. And we all know you were not talking about a donkey | |
| cuchullain 2002-06-21, 9:57 am |
| This thread may have begun for the "wrong reason" but there is still one inportant fact.
I hold in one hand the trade publication "ComputerWorld" dated June 14 which had put out a column that said there were XXX number of unfilled IT jobs in area XXX.
They got a volumous amount of email from techs in area XXX going WHAT ARE U ON??? There are many more folks than spots... The rag then went on to confirm that "skilled" IT jobs were lacking...
The mag also has a joking reference to a place wanting "a Cisco certified MCSE with at least 5 years exp. working with Win NT, 3 years with SQL, and at least 3 years with VizBasic C++ and HTML"
WOW... Find a guy(girl) with that and I'll have their children...
What are employers on???? Do they think that they can hire an MCSE/network/programmer/webmaster/receptionist/coffe maker/blind date??? | |
| freak 2002-06-21, 10:01 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by cuchullain
What are employers on???? Do they think that they can hire an MCSE/network/programmer/webmaster/receptionist/coffe maker/blind date???
LOL I have an MCSE, but I don't know how to make coffee -- I don';t drink any... can I still get the job? | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-06-21, 10:02 am |
| Well, that's the rub . . . there are plenty of positions available . . . but usually only for highly skilled and experienced people. Someone who has their A+ and is looking to break into the market is initially going to run into problems. The last few years have created a multitude of such individuals; it is not those guys who are needed, but guys who have 5-10 years of programming ic C or managing Oracle databases or managing integrated Unix and NT networks. The lower-level techie positions are harder to come by. There are still some, but they are not as plentiful as they used to be. And if an employer can get someone with more experience and skills, why would they settle for less? This is how it is in every other industry, why should IT be any different? Remember, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. | |
| jeff_j_black 2002-06-21, 10:26 am |
| Five years ago, when I decided to give this biz a try, there was this little throw-away rag that you could pick up at the supermarket. It was called 'Computer User' published and distributed in the Phoenix and Tucson markets primarily. It was funny, even then they had glowing outlooks and really high salaries listed in one segment. Then you turn the page and read a story about what businesses are looking for in applicants and invariably it included qualifications that you didn't have. It was kind of discouraging to me, but I went ahead anyway.
It still boils down to two schools of thought: Half empty or half full. No, if your job market is soo depressed in IT, it does not make any sense to go on spending more money on getting the next big set of letters that is going to put you on top. Hey you might have to go into a job that you were not even considering. I've been around computers and electronics all of my life, but I spent 21 years in the restaurant business. I always thought that I wasn't gifted enough or didn't have the time to get the education needed to move into IT. It's funny, my restaurant experience comes into play as much or more that any training I've recieved in IT. I have even considered making a go of it on my own, but not yet. I get lots of work on the side and never turn even the smallest gig away. That was how I filled my original resume that got me in the door! I did not even have any certification, when I got my first computer job! | |
| cuchullain 2002-06-21, 10:32 am |
| Freak, I take cream AND sugar
VMSKid UR right, some places that have a "little" network can't afford a network guy, and a web guy and an admin guy and a helpdesk guy.
Point is those of us on a job search should not have to be "jack of all trades master of none".... | |
| uoparah 2002-06-21, 10:49 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by The VMS Kid
The market is tough right now. But getting pissed off because some of us have jobs is not productive. If you want to work, your time would be better spent trying to learn more and intensifying your job search. If you are determined, you will get it. Moaning about how unfortunate you are will not help. I find it ironic that those of us who have the best attitudes about this whole situation tend to be the ones who are employed, rather than letting things get to us. Maybe that's why we are successful in the first place, huh?
People that have better outlooks is because they are employed...chicken and the egg situation, dont ya think? | |
| freak 2002-06-21, 11:05 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by uoparah
People that have better outlooks is because they are employed...chicken and the egg situation, dont ya think?
Yes and no. WHen I lost my job, I was hurt personally, and wondering where the money was going to come from since I am the only breadwinner in a family of four. Stress was part of the equation. But I still decided -- yup, it was a conscious decision -- to remain positive and to believe that good things would come. They did. Sure, it is depressing to be without a job. I can only symapthize with that feeling too well. But then you have to make that stand because nobody else will take it for you. | |
| cuchullain 2002-06-21, 11:12 am |
| Not positive what that means...
If it is what I think it is, of note is that anyone I know who has landed a 'dream job" already has an IT job.
They have been putting feelers out and have snagged a big sturgeon. Anyone who is unemployed is still after 3 months and 11 emails STILL unemployed... | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-06-21, 11:13 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by uoparah
People that have better outlooks is because they are employed...chicken and the egg situation, dont ya think?
Not necessarily. People with jobs may be happier because they do have a job, but if you are put in a position of being out of a job, it is your positivity that will pull you through, not your negativity. Attitude is important . . . it shows through in everything that you do. If you think negatively, you are half beat already. I know things can be depressing at times, but that is when you need to be your strongest. If you give in to your negativity, you are sabotaging yourself. | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-06-21, 11:14 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by cuchullain
Point is those of us on a job search should not have to be "jack of all trades master of none"....
Some of us have little choice, though . . . | |
| Gareth Leung 2002-06-21, 11:28 am |
| Your interview skill and impression affected your successful rate in an interview, not just your education and working experience. | |
| jeff_j_black 2002-06-21, 11:44 am |
| In general, people with better outlooks on life continually have more reasons to have better outlooks on life. No one wants to be around negative people, especially in a hire situation. If your negative, I don't want you near me and for damn sure I'm not going to pay you to be around me! | |
| cuchullain 2002-06-21, 11:56 am |
| Point taken, I like to think positive and when I get to an interview I smile and say all the right things, and I'll cling to yer leg like a bad puppy if I have to...
Point is, you need to get to the door and see the person and stick your clammy mitt in theirs. Kinda hard to do if your resume got stuck in the firewood pile... | |
| freak 2002-06-21, 12:23 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by cuchullain
If it is what I think it is, of note is that anyone I know who has landed a 'dream job" already has an IT job.
They have been putting feelers out and have snagged a big sturgeon. Anyone who is unemployed is still after 3 months and 11 emails STILL unemployed...
Agreed. As I wrote earlier, it is easier to look for a new job when you already have one, then when you are unemployed. I also told this to my ex employer when they let me go unexpectedly. Had they given me some warning prior from letting me go, I would then have had a chance to start calling my contacts. This could have made a difference in terms of easing the transition... | |
| jeff_j_black 2002-06-21, 12:26 pm |
| Except they don't want you quitting before they are through with you! | |
| freak 2002-06-21, 12:35 pm |
| True, but it is called courtesy. I would never have come to them on a Friday night to tell them that I was not going to teach on Monday. The years of loyalty I showed them deserved better than what I got imho. It is all in the past anyway, so I made my peace with it. I wish them the best for I still have many friends who work there and depend on that company to make a living for their loves ones. | |
| kalejaiye 2002-06-21, 1:05 pm |
| If u guys are really looking for IT Jobs and it is not forth coming, U better go and learn how to play football bcos they are really making it nowadays. | |
| Nicole 2002-06-21, 1:57 pm |
| Oh yeah! You just have to get the hot new NFL certification. With only 6 weeks of night classes, the school will GUARENTEE your placement with a professional team*.
Salaries of NFL certified professionals average over $1 million!
*Some restrictions apply.
| |
| CyberDude 2002-06-21, 2:16 pm |
| Could thw webmaster please confirm with a yes/no if this is the longest thread on the site? This has had me laughing and crying just reading it, thank guys and gals. | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-06-21, 2:21 pm |
| Nope, the MS/Politics thread is more than twice as long as this one. | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-21, 2:48 pm |
| quote:
Oh please. I have an IQ in the 99+ percentile to, and you know what it means in real life?
Besides being a brilliant businessman, Gates is a super-programmer (one of the small elite whose productivity, due to the superiority of their raw analytical powers, can be up to 100 times that of the typical developer).
Microsoft prizes top graduates of pure science programs, because, in their experience, these people have the raw analytical skills that can only be bestowed by Mother Nature, not learned, and that any learned skills they do not have they will pick up quickly, including software programming. Bill Gates summed it up when he said that in choosing development staff, one must be very elitist, and that 95% (I think) of the population has no business working with complex code. I read those quotes in a book on Microsoft, if you are wondering.
quote:
Perhaps it is not your technical skills that is lacking but your attitude, teamwork, communication skills, anti-social behavior that is not getting you a job.
Hmm, in that case, why did my old employer offer me a relocation (with $10K + for moving expenses)? I can't get an interview because the market is flooded with seekers, and most of the positions available require highly specialized skills (like 6 years of SQL Server) that I just can't match. Do I think I'm so smart? To the contrary, I've been quite humbled by the economic downturn.
quote:
Let's see... my Master's degrees are in Linguistics and Education. I work as a Network Engineer, so i am not too sure that they were of any help. My MCSEs and CCNA were more what they were looking for
A Masters in anything is a high achievement that only a small percentage of the population will ever accomplish. It requires a long, focussed, commitment that is reasonable proof that not only do you possess above average intellectual skills, that you have the maturity and motivation to do something with them. An MCSE, on the other hand, is something that can be acquired relatively easily, and in fact, if you find the right cheating product, you could become a paper one in a matter of a few weeks.
BTW most of the positions with XWAVE are in Dublin, Ireland.
quote:
People like Freak love to kick a man when he is down.
No offense, but I get the impression that he is trying to be helpful, actually.
RD | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-21, 3:44 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Freak True, but it is called courtesy. I would never have come to them on a Friday night to tell them that I was not going to teach on Monday. The years of loyalty I showed them deserved better than what I got imho. It is all in the past anyway, so I made my peace with it. I wish them the best for I still have many friends who work there and depend on that company to make a living for their loves ones.
Doubt I would make my peace that quick, especially working there for years - and they giving you no notice. I'd see a solicitor and get pretty damn mad.
Also Freak, you say that we have no idea how many interviews you went for during your 3-week brush with redundancy. I am not doubting that you didn't put in effort but other people are making a lot of effort too and are not getting a single interview.
There's all this stuff flying around about how attitude matters and its the people with the great attitudes that are presently in work.
Let's try and look at it from both perspectives: you people in work underestimate the degree that well qualified eager people are feeling frustrated by not finding work. The people out of work are thinking how they're not so keen on what they might conceive to be a preaching attitude. One is fueling the other, a little attempt to bridge the gap could be useful. | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-21, 4:14 pm |
| BTW, as an example for some of the better-off participating in this thread of how tight the job market can be, an artist I know from another forum, who was making $55K working for a dot-com before she was laid off when the downturn started, was so desperate for an income that at one point she was inquiring into advertisements seeking performers for XXX films.
RD | |
| Nicole 2002-06-21, 5:15 pm |
| You seem to be assuming that those that do have work have never been out of work, frustrated by a job hunt, or one of the newbies trying to get a job with no experience. We have. We know. We might possibly know something that those without a job don't. Or maybe not.
What I find frustrating is how the whole forum lately seems to consist of whining and asking for advice, and then whining when they don't like the advice. Nothing that anyone says can possibly apply to everyone, so nitpicking and getting upset about a comment that doesn't apply to you is counterproductive. (It also makes me wonder why someone would feel the need to so vehemently and personally deny a comment directed in general.)
If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, go shoe shopping. | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-21, 6:50 pm |
| quote:
You seem to be assuming that those that do have work have never been out of work, frustrated by a job hunt, or one of the newbies trying to get a job with no experience.
No, but some of the participants here cannot seem to grasp just how deep the downturn is in tech employment.
I'm not whining or moaning, and I've accepted that, barring a miracle, it's going to be a long time, if ever, before I work in the I.T. field again, and that that's something I'm going to have to deal with. In fact, when I was working on the certifications, I used to make cracks to people that I'd be the best-qualified employee at the donut store.
RD | |
| jackiechan 2002-06-21, 8:56 pm |
| For every employed person with a certain skillset and positive attitude there is also an equal unemployed person with the same skillset and attitude. The ones that are employed have that extra bit of luck. It about demand and supply. If the supply is abundant then the price of the service or good must drop. If there is no demand for a service you have to move to another market. It does not make sense this I.T job market nor did the dot.com bubble. Use the money that you have made from I.T and open a McDonald's franchise. | |
| Zaraspook 2002-06-21, 9:15 pm |
| Just posting the following to lend credence to DivxGuy's earlier post in this thread. Ran across the following today myself.
"The typical college graduate looking for a business or high-tech job is facing a very tough job market. But one field is thriving. The fat salaries and signing bonuses are now going to NURSES. Reuters and the San Jose Mercury News report that new nursing school grads are commanding starting salaries as high as $65,000 along with additional signing bonuses of up to $5,000. Why? Hospitals are suffering from a severe labor shortage. It's a simple question of Economics 101: supply and demand. The nursing shortage is worsening. Within the next 20 years, there could be a half-million fewer nurses than needed--just as the baby boomers are getting older and overwhelming the healthcare system."
"Business Wire reports that nationally the nursing turnover rate is 26 percent, which is the highest in decades. Other professional areas that are seeing demand for new workers--albeit limited--are pharmaceuticals, biotechnology, computer security, government, and other areas of health care. And what about everyone else? "The power has shifted to employers for the first time in a decade," the Irene Peck, a San Jose State University career consultant, told the Mercury News. Those who are seeking work in a field that's not in demand, the quest is doubly hard because they're often competing with more experienced workers who were recently laid off."
The article doesn't say there aren't any jobs out there, it just says it's a very tough market because of the prevalence of experienced workers who were recently laid off. I don't believe the current situation will last too long and the pendelum will eventually swing back sooner rather than later.
The attitude one projects during these tough times is doubly important in that it could possibly be the deciding factor between landing a job right now or not! I agree with Freak -- a positive attitude is a "concious decision". It's very easy to be discouraged right now, but the toughest will always choose to be positive. So why not choose to be positive! It could be the difference! | |
| cahillrobert 2002-06-21, 9:46 pm |
| I was working for the same clinetelle for more then 10 years. Starting out as a mainframe analyst, working my up to a Regional Manager for mainframe systems for a interstate healthcare group. I felt the technical skill set that I had worked to acquire start to vanish and requested my CIO to transfer me to the network team.
Subsequently spending the last 5 1/2 years learning everything I could about NT, Back Office Apps., and infrastructure. During this time never acquired a cert. I was the "go-to person" for Novell systems, NT systems, Nortel, or Cisco products.
Only last year did I obtain my first professional certification - CCNA. During this time I redesigned the regions infrastructure, replacing 282 switches and 19 routers. Replaced the WAN communications, installed Network Management systems, cross-campus wireless systems, VPNs and firewalls.
Six months ago the corporation notified me that they were now able to centrally monitor and support the systems so they were moving my function to Dallas.
Boy was I pissed.
For weeks I did the resume business, interview after interview. Rejection after rejection.
I started to evaluate what I knew and started the MS route, more MS jobs out there. Acquired MCP and then MCSA status. Updated the resume forwarded new copies to everyone, Hire Me! No one gave a damn.
Another interview and subsequent rejection, "You have more then enough skills for this position. You have experience in everything we need. Just no CCNP"
5 weeks later I have a CCNP and working on the CCDP. Calls are now coming in 5 in one week! Now I have had 2 second and 1 third interview.
I don't know if my experience is telling of what is happening in this economy or not. I do believe that luck with hard work is what it takes to be successful in anything worthwhile doing.
It seems sad that the cert may be needed to get you in the door; it is experience that will get you hired.
One of my fears is that all of us laid-off people will be chasing the cert to get hired and there will be more and more paper "certs" in the market, thus cheapening the industries professional level. | |
| jeff_j_black 2002-06-21, 9:56 pm |
| Eject!!! | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by Nicole
Oh yeah! You just have to get the hot new NFL certification. With only 6 weeks of night classes, the school will GUARENTEE your placement with a professional team*.
Salaries of NFL certified professionals average over $1 million!
*Some restrictions apply.
LOL Good one! | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by jackiechan
For every employed person with a certain skillset and positive attitude there is also an equal unemployed person with the same skillset and attitude. The ones that are employed have that extra bit of luck. It about demand and supply. If the supply is abundant then the price of the service or good must drop. If there is no demand for a service you have to move to another market. It does not make sense this I.T job market nor did the dot.com bubble. Use the money that you have made from I.T and open a McDonald's franchise.
With all due respect, what is this obsession of yours with McDonald's? It is starting to not be very healthy. You may want to consult a professional about that. I mean, the answer can't always be fast food heaven, regardless of the question, right? ??? | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by RichardJW
Let's try and look at it from both perspectives: you people in work underestimate the degree that well qualified eager people are feeling frustrated by not finding work. The people out of work are thinking how they're not so keen on what they might conceive to be a preaching attitude. One is fueling the other, a little attempt to bridge the gap could be useful.
Point well taken and agreed with. Thanks for posting this. | |
| uoparah 2002-06-22, 9:39 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by freak
With all due respect, what is this obsession of yours with McDonald's? It is starting to not be very healthy. You may want to consult a professional about that. I mean, the answer can't always be fast food heaven, regardless of the question, right? ???
Man, my whole goal right now is to get my hands on $100K so I can open up a damn Mickey D's. Youre talking damn near GUARANTEED six figures a year for life....I'm trying to get my hands on that type of money RIGHT NOW. | |
| BreakWind 2002-06-23, 7:09 am |
| Even though I think Freak is arrogant and ignorant of other I.T people's plight in finding a job. I have to give him some respect when he said that he has 4 mouths to feed. But I would rather own a Mcdonalds than have all the certs in the world. | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by uoparah
Man, my whole goal right now is to get my hands on $100K so I can open up a damn Mickey D's. Youre talking damn near GUARANTEED six figures a year for life....I'm trying to get my hands on that type of money RIGHT NOW.
LOL You may have a point! Then again, the money doesn't do it for me. I;d rather make a bit less, and do something that makes me happy. I am not sure that owning a McD's would make me all that happy past the paycheck thing... | |
| uoparah 2002-06-23, 12:35 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by freak
LOL You may have a point! Then again, the money doesn't do it for me. I;d rather make a bit less, and do something that makes me happy. I am not sure that owning a McD's would make me all that happy past the paycheck thing...
About taking a bit less to do something you like. But I'll be honest with you...the two major dreams I have are owning SEVERAL businesses and writing a book (dont ask...). Now when I first came into IT I had every intention that before I was 30 I would have my own IT consulting, staffing or educational firm. But look at me now...I am four years deep into IT, and for all intents and purposes, I have gotten nothing out of it. It's one thing to chase a passion, but now, chasing an IT job is almost like trying to get rich off artwork--it's quite iffy and alot of luck involved. And to be quite frank, if I'm going to take that kind of chance and put that kind of energy, I'd much rather go into sports management or agency (my interests are quite wide-range). But business would give me at least SOME degree of autonomy, and I wouldnt be as much a slave to the burps and hiccups of the economy. This s.hit right now is ridiculous... | |
| DivxGuy 2002-06-23, 1:07 pm |
| Very well put, uoparah.
In my case, I did work in the field for 8 years (1 of which was doing unskilled network support), so I did get something back, but in retrospect, I would have been ahead financially if I'd have just stayed in my old low-skill warehouse job instead of following others into the I.T. field. In fact, the only reason I had 4 "fat" years in I.T. was that I was able to relocate to the U.S. under the NAFTA treaty; the salaries I was able to earn in Vancouver for development work were less than the clerks in provincial liquor stores make (and they aren't paid all that well).
RD | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by uoparah
About taking a bit less to do something you like. But I'll be honest with you...the two major dreams I have are owning SEVERAL businesses and writing a book (dont ask...).
Interesting, as I had the same dreams. I used to have my own consulting business, but I didn't enjoy all the peripheral work -- chasing down late accounts, etc...
As for the book issue, that is why I started mcse freak press. I also have a deal in the -- very early -- works with McGraw-Hill as we speak. Hopefully, this will turn out well.
IT has been good for me. My salary went up by 5 figures every year since I joined -- except for this year, since I was laid off right when revue time was around the corner 
All in all, this has been a great industry for me. I did have to move 5000 km away from home, but considering the results, it was well worth it!
It sounds that in Divx' case, the issue is not so much the industry itself, but the market that he is in. That's too bad, for you clearly have great skills that many companies would pay good money to have you on staff... | |
| uoparah 2002-06-23, 2:53 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
but in retrospect, I would have been ahead financially if I'd have just stayed in my old low-skill warehouse job instead of following others into the I.T. field. In fact, the only reason I had 4 "fat" years in I.T. was that I was able to relocate to the U.S. under the NAFTA treaty; the salaries I was able to earn in Vancouver for development work were less than the clerks in provincial liquor stores make (and they aren't paid all that well).
RD
Can you please explain what you mean here? I'm kind of lost...did you work in a non-skill field in Canada and you got paid MORE than IT over here? And I'm telling you right now, I've learned one thing--go where the security is. The only way you go into a very volatile job market field is if you are in sports, entertainment or VERY high level stock investing (like playing around with 6 figures daily). | |
| uoparah 2002-06-23, 2:58 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by freak
....IT has been good for | | |