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i am so pissed and discouraged
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| Psugak 2003-09-28, 9:48 pm |
| Hi, I have a serious situation. I just graduated from a four year university with a bachelors in business administration specializing in Management of information systems. I also have a minor in computer science and A+ Certification. After all that, I am UNEMPLOYED!!!! And no one will even call me back or anything! Only two interviews in six months!! man im discouraged! what should i do...what do they want from me , geez. My ex gf who had half the g.p.a. as me is a nurse now and has a good job and good security. but not I! not the person with actually three degrees and a g.p.a. of 3.46 ....what should i do???????? | |
| hilter 2003-09-28, 10:08 pm |
| Become a Nurse. | |
| Stizzy 2003-09-29, 1:29 am |
| i'm in the same boat....but i'm actually going back for my bachelors degree. lived up in New England all my life and got my A.S. in electronics...3.74GPA and worked for 2 years at a fortune 500 company til they cut my department down from 50 to 6. i was miserable there anyway but i moved down to texas to get a new start and live with some family down here. i've been unemployed for a year now and have finally gotten to the point where i can get back into school....so i'm going back for my B.S. in Computer Engineering and getting all the certs i can. have been studying this past year and will be starting on my CCNA and MCSA soon. everyone has their own story of failures and hardships....you just have to stick with it. if you love what you do then go for it and you'll figure something out. if you don't then your in the wrong business....IT is rough as hell right now. anyway, good luck....i know i'm looking for some of that little luck thing now. | |
| Pavlov 2003-09-29, 1:33 pm |
| Things are tough all over the country... you've got all that great education and an entry level certification.... but how much experience in the field do you have?
In a market this tight your experience is more valuable than your education, high gpa, or certifications. | |
| bloodshotx 2003-09-29, 1:34 pm |
| Psugak,
When you were going to college you should have gone above and beyond the duty and gained INVALUABLE experience while you got your degree. Seeing how you have an entry level certification and you never mentioned experience that is why you are having the problems.
You can't just get a bach and expect to get a good job. You must be elite and you must know everything about your market. If your into networking then you must know all cisco, microsoft and novell(lol) if you want to be acknolwedged. programming is the same way, know C++,SQL,Java,Html,Pearl, VB. And have all the certs for them.
Good luck,
Remember, survival of the fitess, only leave the weak behind. | |
| Papiya 2003-09-29, 1:46 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by bloodshotx
Psugak,
When you were going to college you should have gone above and beyond the duty and gained INVALUABLE experience while you got your degree. Seeing how you have an entry level certification and you never mentioned experience that is why you are having the problems.
You can't just get a bach and expect to get a good job. You must be elite and you must know everything about your market. If your into networking then you must know all cisco, microsoft and novell(lol) if you want to be acknolwedged. programming is the same way, know C++,SQL,Java,Html,Pearl, VB. And have all the certs for them.
Good luck,
Remember, survival of the fitess, only leave the weak behind.
I know of very few programmers who value certs at all. | |
| bloodshotx 2003-09-29, 1:54 pm |
| Thanks, I know only a few programmers and yes they don't have any certifications.
Thanks for clarifying that. | |
| ANDRONDA 2003-09-29, 3:21 pm |
| You are not going to like my advice. I was in a similar situation back in ’92 when I left the military. The economy SUCKED back then too. After being unemployed for 4 months I marched into a company that I wanted to work for and asked them to give me a 90-day trial as an entry-level supervisor. After much hemming and hawing, they agreed but would only pay me the equivalent of 28K annual per pay period. This was peanuts even ten years ago. Within a year I was promoted twice and my pay came in-line with my peers within the company. Now I have changed companies twice and have moved up substantially in responsibility and salary over the last twelve years.
My point is that you have to be bold and also be willing to do whatever it takes to get in the door. You also must possess one thing: A HARD WORK ETHIC. | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by ANDRONDA
A HARD WORK ETHIC.
Such blasphemy is not spoken of in these forums!!!! | |
| TJLeeland 2003-09-30, 8:08 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
I know of very few programmers who value certs at all.
Good point but...he's not a programmer. He's an information systems manager. The two industries are not the same, and certs mean much more in IS. Especially security certs.
I agree with Bloodshotx, you can't get a degree and an A+ certification and expect to become a manager. You didn't actually say what positions you were applying to, but based on your education and the tone of the post it looks like IS Manager or something.
First, you will not get a job managing people unless you've managed people before. That's not an oxymoron; you have to start from the bottom and work your way up. Prove you can lead in a tech position and become a lead tech, then manager.
Your choice of certification was a bad one for your chosen field. A+ is mostly a hardware and OS beginning certification. It'll do you no good unless you want to work at CompUSA. I wouldn't even get a cert right now; without some experience to back it up no one will care if you have one or not. Experience first, cert later.
It's a tough market out there right now. It'll get better but you still have to start at the bottom and prove yourself just like any industry. Do an internship, volunteer, or take a crap $8-$10 an hour job for now.
Try working on friends' computers for free. Get some valuable experience with friends that won't kill you if you mess up their computers, and work on their friends' computers. Start charging a pittance and after a year or two put it on your resume as something like PsugaKomputers, inc. Use your friends as references. This might help get you your first tech job for as much as $25-$30 an hour (this is how I got started) but don't count on much more. How much you'll make at your first real job will depend on where you live.
Once you have a proven track record you can start to leverage your degree for a management position but it's going to be hard unless you find a way to get promoted to managing others in one of your jobs. PsugaKomputers, inc. isn't going to cut it for that.
With some experience under your belt you can start to think about a cert. MCSE, CCNP, CCSA, Network+, or something in project management. The harder the cert the better. Security is hot right now but who knows what it'll be in two years.
The only other thing you can do is lie on your resume and hope you learn as much as you can before you get fired to last longer the next time. | |
| Paisleyskye 2003-09-30, 9:18 pm |
| Things are tough in this industry, and that's probably going to be the story for at least the next little while - but hold your head up. Your day in the sun will come! | |
| Study_tx 2003-10-01, 2:22 am |
| YUP , THING IS BAD, BUT HOW IS THE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TERRIBLE SITUATION.
I believe these companies who send jobs to INDIA the real problem.and also the administration did not do anything about it.
Mr Bush he never said anything about Exporting America,of course he careless about us, he care only about his rich friends that give him millions of dollars to sponsor his compaign next year.
I wish from my heart that 2004 will be a great year ,I hope we ll have a great president that has the ability to declare war against these companies who invest in India ,China.............
We are in same boat , I have Mcp(210,215,218)CCNA,A+ and 2 years experiences ,during last16 months I lost my job as 2 millions people in this country, I got only 5 interviews so far , I hope in the next interview I ll do goooooood.
latelly I applied for helpdesk position guess what how many people appilied for one position 450 people,some of them have a Master and 8 years experience .
I hope we ll do something about it next year, let face it ,we are in same boat, Mr bush did not do his job he deserve to leave the office | |
| rathore 2003-10-01, 3:51 am |
| we are all in a same boat, this is a global problem, i'm holding a degree in computer sciences & i did my certifications last year hoping that my future will b secure but the thing arent the way i hoped, althou i'm working since 1996 but am not happy with my current job as i'm not getting wat i deserve, any way one of my friend had Bachelor+Master degrees in computer sciences & MCSE on Win NT since 1996, its this year only he got a job as Network Administrator in British Council so he waited 7 years(althou he did alot of small projects during this time). All we hav to do is keep on trying. | |
| bloodshotx 2003-10-01, 11:26 am |
| Very good post TJleeland.
I do bielieve that lying on a resume is unethical though. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-01, 11:30 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
Good point but...he's not a programmer.
If I recall correctly, in an above post bloodshotx said: "Programming is the same way, know C++,SQL,Java,Html,Pearl, VB. And have all the certs for them".
This was what I was replying to. Certs for programmers are useless. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-01, 1:11 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by bloodshotx
Very good post TJleeland.
I do bielieve that lying on a resume is unethical though.
Thanks bloodshotx. I wasn't really advocating lying on a resume (at least not to that extent ); one would never last long enough to actually learn anything. I just offered it as a contrast and an ineffectual alternative to doing the right thing - working one's way up the ladder. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-01, 1:23 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
If I recall correctly, in an above post bloodshotx said: "Programming is the same way, know C++,SQL,Java,Html,Pearl, VB. And have all the certs for them".
This was what I was replying to. Certs for programmers are useless.
I got that. I was just trying to point out that the two were different industries and that Psugak shouldn't take a lack of value in programming as a lack of value in all areas. The "Good Point" part wasn't sarcasm. In fact, it seemed to me that Psugak needs a better understanding of certs in general, and that some hold more value than others - and that some have none at all. But that doesn't mean that all certs are useless. A project management cert would do him best right now, while a tech cert should be put off until some experience is gained to back it up.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. | |
| curiousgeorge 2003-10-02, 1:28 am |
| Psugak,
I remember when I graduated college with my second degree in 1992. I thought companies would be coming after me. The economy was crap and I had to take a job starting out at $20,000. I got promoted twice and made decent money after that.
I've been in IT for only five years. I have two degrees and seven certs. Two years ago I was making $65K. The company downsized and gave me the axe because I was the highest paid administrator. Today I'm making $38K. I'm sending my resume out to see if I get any bites. I've had many interviews, but no offers.
Bottom line- swallow your youthful pride and start looking for a very basic job that only pays $10 - $12/ hr (helpdesk job, tech at CompUSA, etc.).
I also suggest taking at least one M$ exam so you can put MCP on your resume. Also get Security+ cert. That's an eye catcher for idiot recruiters.
After 6 months to a year of doing a crap job, along with a few more certs, you can probably look for a better job.
IT will be shitty for another 6 months to a year. | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-02, 3:13 am |
| quote:
In a market this tight your experience is more valuable than your education, high gpa, or certifications.
I dunno...I had seven years of development experience, and that didn't change my unemployment situation. There just came a point sometime in 2001 where West Coast IT employers stopped hiring and started laying off, and that was it. I had a two interviews in August of 2001, and after that, not so much as a peep from a potential employer. I was hoping that earning some certs might change that, to no avail. My last resort was to seek refuge in academia, where I remain today. It was that or the donut store or lumber yard.
If this gentleman has a science degree, why not try and go into medicine? World-wide, the supply of MDs is tight, and the fact that they're not easy to churn out like software engineers, combined with an aging population, makes for bright (and lucrative) employment prospects. If I were 20 years younger and had a science degree, that's what I'd be trying to get into.
RD | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-02, 1:02 pm |
| quote:
I had seven years of development experience, and that didn't change my unemployment situation...If this gentleman has a science degree, why not try and go into medicine? World-wide, the supply of MDs is tight.
Div, I agree development is tight right now, but this guy is looking at another area of IT. Project management and security are growing and he already has a good base for that kind of work, he just needs to set today's sights a little lower. His prospects aren't weak, his approach is just wrong.
He'd have to go through a long intern process as an MD where he'll make no money and work long, long hours. After that he'll be paying student loans for years. After 4-6 more years of school and two years as an intern he'll just be starting to do well. Meanwhile the IT industry will have rebounded.
But hey, if he WANTS to become a doctor, more power to him. Go for it. But it's far from an easy road and the payoff is at least 6-10 years away, if ever.
And doctors in America aren't that happy these days. Fighting with HMO's and the FDA is killing their spirit, they can't treat problems the way they want or spend time with patients anymore. I wouldn't want that kind of job where the FDA is breathing down my neck every time I prescribe Vicodin, my malpractice insurance is pricing me out of a speciality practice (which where the real money is), I can't treat patients the way I want or the HMO won't pay, and office visits are no more than five minutes. Otherwise the house on the hill, the boat, and the Harley all go back.
Believe me, I know doctors. I see one every month and usually two or three. I've been to 13 doctors in the past five years. Boy the stories they've told me...
Nope. The job of doctor isn't what it used to be. Better to be a nurse practitioner. Less to worry about but still good pay. | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-02, 2:52 pm |
| It seems that many people fresh from school want a good job.
What is a good job? In many cases, just having a job these days is good.
Too many people come out of college and are insulted with an $8 or $10 an hour job. Just because one graduates from college, doesn't make them an expert. It takes time.
I felt similar when I graduated years ago, and finally took something that paid $6.50.
I was able to live on that - things were tight, but I managed.
Many years later - after I became 'older' and had gained experience - other more appealing jobs have become available to me.
People keep wondering why work is going overseas, and our country hires in 'foreinger's' to do the work in local companies.....well, guess what. Keep turning down those entry level jobs!
One thing our country hasn't learned yet it to be happy with what fortunes we have. The more people who refuse to work for things (like any position in a company). The more companies are going to look to investing in countries where people are willing to just work.
Keep complaining about only making $20,000 or less a year - pretty soon, there will not be any jobs at all.
People don't want to pay high $$$ for goods and services. Companies cannot compete with foreign goods - because American workers all think they need to be millionarires. I'd look for employees who will work.
Business do NOT exist for the employees benefit!
Business exist because someone felt they could make a difference. In that process, they felt they could use some help in making that goal happen. They hired an employee. The employee agreed to do work for money/benefits to pay for things they want/need.
Somehow, over the years, our culture has turned that into... I work for XYZ Corporation - THEY MUST PAY ME MORE to stay here. VERY rarely, will you see employees (except in Employee owned companies) realize that to continue to earn some sort of money - without starting completely over that they (the employees) may need to help the company cut back its expenses (payroll/benefits).
The business/employee relationship is a team effort. Both sides need to be open to each others needs to be successful. Many companies share large bonuses with its employees in profitable years. Almost never do you see employees - paying back to the company when the company needs help.
I am certain this will get misread - misquoted by someone in this forum. So, my point is....
Start your own business. When things get tough and you need to lay people off or cut wages - see how willing your employees are to help you.
The state of Michigan is looking at pay cuts or losing 2000 jobs. The government employees are picketing -saying- "Go ahead, cut the jobs". -
So, when Michigan cuts those 2000 people off their payroll - maybe one of those people will take that $8 an hour job you just turned down. 5 years from now, they will be making what you still think you are worth.
Hope you studied economics in school - supply vs demand. More people in the market - companies (businesses) can pick and choose people.
Sometimes its not about credentials - It just comes down to ATTITUDE. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-02, 3:00 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by plantwiz
People keep wondering why work is going overseas, and our country hires in 'foreinger's' to do the work in local companies.....well, guess what. Keep turning down those entry level jobs!
Couldn't have said it better! | |
| Papiya 2003-10-02, 3:01 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by plantwiz
It seems that many people fresh from school want a good job.
What is a good job? In many cases, just having a job these days is good.
Too many people come out of college and are insulted with an $8 or $10 an hour job. Just because one graduates from college, doesn't make them an expert. It takes time.
I felt similar when I graduated years ago, and finally took something that paid $6.50.
I was able to live on that - things were tight, but I managed.
Many years later - after I became 'older' and had gained experience - other more appealing jobs have become available to me.
People keep wondering why work is going overseas, and our country hires in 'foreinger's' to do the work in local companies.....well, guess what. Keep turning down those entry level jobs!
One thing our country hasn't learned yet it to be happy with what fortunes we have. The more people who refuse to work for things (like any position in a company). The more companies are going to look to investing in countries where people are willing to just work.
Keep complaining about only making $20,000 or less a year - pretty soon, there will not be any jobs at all.
People don't want to pay high $$$ for goods and services. Companies cannot compete with foreign goods - because American workers all think they need to be millionarires. I'd look for employees who will work.
Business do NOT exist for the employees benefit!
Business exist because someone felt they could make a difference. In that process, they felt they could use some help in making that goal happen. They hired an employee. The employee agreed to do work for money/benefits to pay for things they want/need.
Somehow, over the years, our culture has turned that into... I work for XYZ Corporation - THEY MUST PAY ME MORE to stay here. VERY rarely, will you see employees (except in Employee owned companies) realize that to continue to earn some sort of money - without starting completely over that they (the employees) may need to help the company cut back its expenses (payroll/benefits).
The business/employee relationship is a team effort. Both sides need to be open to each others needs to be successful. Many companies share large bonuses with its employees in profitable years. Almost never do you see employees - paying back to the company when the company needs help.
I am certain this will get misread - misquoted by someone in this forum. So, my point is....
Start your own business. When things get tough and you need to lay people off or cut wages - see how willing your employees are to help you.
The state of Michigan is looking at pay cuts or losing 2000 jobs. The government employees are picketing -saying- "Go ahead, cut the jobs". -
So, when Michigan cuts those 2000 people off their payroll - maybe one of those people will take that $8 an hour job you just turned down. 5 years from now, they will be making what you still think you are worth.
Hope you studied economics in school - supply vs demand. More people in the market - companies (businesses) can pick and choose people.
Sometimes its not about credentials - It just comes down to ATTITUDE.
You got that right. Just send all of your entry level jobs over here to India . . . we'll take them gladly!  | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-02, 3:39 pm |
| TJLeeland & Papiya,
Thanks for understanding.
I rant - and then get misquoted. Thanks for the support. Sounds like you get it. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-02, 3:43 pm |
| It's like this. Nobody likes getting paid less than what they think they are worth. And everybody thinks they are worth more than what entry level jobs will pay. But you have to start somewhere. And I know this is partly practical . . . after finishing college and having a car note, rent and a college loan off, entry level work is not easy to make ends meet on. But the point is, take them and move with them, or someone else will. | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-02, 3:45 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
... But the point is, take them and move with them, or someone else will.
AGREED | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-02, 5:10 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by plantwiz
Thanks for the support. Sounds like you get it.
I did a lot of work for free to get into this business. Free work to establish trust, free work to get experience. Then I charged $10/hr; and after that I added teaching software for $10/hr. A couple years of that got me my first $40k/yr job followed by one at $60k/yr. But it took two years of making from nothing to $10/hr!
There's a whole lot of trust involved in IT. That's why real exerience can't be beat. You kill a system while you're learning and a company could go out of business! | |
| ciscosucks 2003-10-02, 6:00 pm |
| I hear there are lots of jobs for Americans in Iraq. | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-02, 7:01 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
I did a lot of work for free to get into this business. Free work to establish trust, free work to get experience. Then I charged $10/hr; and after that I added teaching software for $10/hr. A couple years of that got me my first $40k/yr job followed by one at $60k/yr. But it took two years of making from nothing to $10/hr!
There's a whole lot of trust involved in IT. That's why real exerience can't be beat. You kill a system while you're learning and a company could go out of business!
You have a very good point. I still will do work for free - particularly when I am 'rusty' or it is technique I am perfecting my technique on (such as the best way to set up a secure wireless network).
You are 100% correct about the building trust. Everyone's time is worth something, but why should a client or a company pay for the technician's time to first learn something when they have already convinced the client or company that they were qualified?
Once a client or company finds someone to be "trustworthy", they want to keep that person around. THEN they tend to let the person 'play' around with their systems/technology. | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-02, 10:41 pm |
| quote:
Too many people come out of college and are insulted with an $8 or $10 an hour job.
$8 an hour is the minimum wage here, and it's not enough to pay back student loans and not enough to pay for certifications.
FYI U.S. per-capita GDP has gone up sharply since the 1960s, yet workers' wages have dropped in real terms since them. Who's getting the extra income? The top 10% of the economic strata, especially corporate executives (their pay has soared in real terms over the last generation).
Corporations can get away with paying employees less because of globalization (meaning access to cheaper labor in other countries that allows them to cut labor costs and transfer the difference into their own pockets), but that doesn't work with jobs that can't be outsourced offshore, like the trades, the medical professions, and anything else that requires an on-site presence. This is why I (and many others) believe that IT may no longer be a viable path to a middle-class income, and instead, those seeking such should look elsewhere (there are still plenty of occupations offering a reasonable return on the work effort).
Sorry, but $10 an hour is not worth the expense and effort of a four-year degree program, or any kind of certification (apart from maybe the A+).
RD | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-03, 4:59 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
Sorry, but $10 an hour is not worth the expense and effort of a four-year degree program, or any kind of certification (apart from maybe the A+).
First, this is called lying with statistics. And this is pretty bad, even for you. No one meant $8 Canadian and you know it (if I'm wrong, if anyone else out there meant Canadian dollars please tell me and I'll apologize!). You purposely misunderstood that fact so you could make your point - a point that wouldn't stand at $10.75 - $13.40 (which is the equivalent of $8-$10 US at today's exchange rate of about 1.34). There, I just gave our IT worker a 35% raise.
Not surprisingly, you've also missed the point.
The point is: It's a starting wage! And people like you snubbing your nose at it and telling the IT world that you're too good for that little amount of pay is the very reason jobs are leaving for other countries where the people are desperate for good jobs and will actually work hard instead of bit** about how bad they have it.
NOBODY without experience deserves more than $10-$12 an hour for an IT job. And I would only pay $12 an hour in a GOOD economy where bodies are hard to find; in a market like this I'd pay no more than $10.
The more you post the more I understand why you're having such a hard time out there. You want it easy and you think it's owed to you.
You say it's impossible to make it work? Gee, I guess I did the impossible! I must be superman. Along with all those other individuals that have a work ethic; not like the Johnny-Come-Lately's that sit there and whine about how their MCSE, which they got in six weeks – with no experience - isn't pulling in $65k now that real techs that enjoy the business, with real experience, putting in a real effort, expecting real wages for the experience they have, have taken their job.
Boo Hoo. I’m sick of people that want great jobs but have nothing to offer for the money they demand – then cry about how hard life is. So you learned Windows 2000 and IIS…big f’ing deal. A monkey could do that. If you want to make $65k - $100k in ANY field you have to have something to offer that the other one million job seekers can’t. That’s life, that’s the way it works. The reason for paying someone that much money is because finding people that can do it is HARD. If you can pick them up on any street corner, why would you pay them $75k/yr? I’m sorry if this hurts your feelings, but finding an MCSD is NOT hard! Finding a talented MCSD with a good attitude and willingness to go the extra mile? THAT’S hard! | |
| Papiya 2003-10-03, 7:58 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
Sorry, but $10 an hour is not worth the expense and effort of a four-year degree program, or any kind of certification (apart from maybe the A+).
Well, as I have already said, send the jobs to us then! We'll gladly take them. | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-03, 12:38 pm |
| quote:
a point that wouldn't stand at $10.75 - $13.40 (which is the equivalent of $8-$10 US at today's exchange rate of about 1.34). There, I just gave our IT worker a 35% raise.
Sorry, but a Canadian making $C 8 an hour is better off than an American making $US 8 an hour, because many important cost-of-living factors are dollar-for-dollar equal (like food and shelter), and others that are outrageously expensive in the U.S. (like health care) are very affordable in Canada.
It's the (now-vanishing) middle-class who do better in the U.S. than in Canada , not the lower and upper classes. If I had to be poor, I'd pick Canada over the U.S. any day.
quote:
The point is: It's a starting wage! And people like you snubbing your nose at it and telling the IT world that you're too good for that little amount of pay is the very reason jobs are leaving for other countries where the people are desperate for good jobs and will actually work hard instead of bit** about how bad they have it.
Jobs are leaving the country because wages are lower in underdeveloped countries, and improved communications technologies make it possible to exploit that by conducting business in a globally distributed fashion that wasn't possible before.
Also, note a wage that appears pitiful to North Americans may be a princely sum in a country like India, where prices on basic goods and services have not been bid up to astronomical rates (ie a 2-bedroom apartment might be $125 a month, versus $1000 a month in Redmond, WA, the home of Microsoft).
Trying to justify Third World wages for North Americans is disingenous, becaue it doesn't take into consideration the vastly greater buying power those wages have overseas.
quote:
NOBODY without experience deserves more than $10-$12 an hour for an IT job. And I would only pay $12 an hour in a GOOD economy where bodies are hard to find; in a market like this I'd pay no more than $10.
Even in 1990, BCIT 2-year grads could expect $25,000 a year right out of school (which was bumped up due to the downturn). Put simply, $10 an hour won't cover the student loan payments, and thus if that's what people could expect out of school, then most would pass on getting a higher education. And then the employers would whine about the poor quality of the education system, and the lack of a work ethic amongst the young. 
quote:
The more you post the more I understand why you're having such a hard time out there. You want it easy and you think it's owed to you.
Nothing's owed to me, but I know that there are more lucrative occupations out there, like the trades, hence my dim view of IT.
I once knew an engineering grad (4-year science program) who eschewed his chosen major in favor of a tiling business. Why? Because he could expect $30,000 a year in an engineering position, as opposed to $80,000+ in his new trade. Moral?
quote:
not like the Johnny-Come-Lately's that sit there and whine about how their MCSE, which they got in six weeks – with no experience - isn't pulling in $65k
I knew the MCSE wasn't worth much, but note that at the time I earned mine, I had 2 other premium certifications, a 2-year IT degree, and 7 years of development experience, hardly a Johnny-come-lately.
quote:
So you learned Windows 2000 and IIS…big f’ing deal. A monkey could do that.
Not quite, and the reason the starting wages are so low is that there is a glut of qualified talent on the market. Try taking a person off of the street with no exposure to Windows 2000 and see how fast it takes them to acquire all the skills necessary for an MSCE.
quote:
I’m sorry if this hurts your feelings, but finding an MCSD is NOT hard! Finding a talented MCSD with a good attitude and willingness to go the extra mile? THAT’S hard!
In fact, there aren't all that many MCSDs out there (I think there are only 40,000 world-wide), for the most part because the certification isn't worth the time and expense. And although attitude is important, it's the skills and knowledge the employers pay for, which is why they usually demand a four-year degree and at least five years of paid work experience before they'll honor an MCSD.
RD | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-03, 1:09 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
A bunch of stuff not related to the subject at hand
Again, the point is that it's a starting wage for an industry that values experience over all (and with very good reason). If you don't want to pay off student loans for your IT degree, don't go to school. In this industry experience counts FIRST, then education. No one cares if a non-management IT worker has a four year degree.
So you make $10 an hour the first two years, then $65k after that. That's a pretty good deal considering that NO education is needed to make the higher wage. Unlike almost any other field.
You have to play the game the way the industry wants. You cannot apply your rules to IT and force them to accept it. Get your three years in, start making $50k or so, THEN go to school. Problem solved, money made, rent paid, loans taken care of.
My wife made less than $10 an hour when I met her three years ago. Somehow, even in America she managed to make it. She didn't live like a queen, but she paid her bills and enjoyed her life. Yes, she drove a 1990 Subaru Justy and had a roommate, but if she did it for 15 years and survived surely an IT worker can do it for two.
By the way, I grew up in Detroit, the only place in the continental US that you can go south and end up in Canada (Windsor). We were so close to Canada and went so often I thought it was a state when I was a kid. I know Canada pretty well. We get your news stations (CKRW for one - you stole Dick Perkins from us!) use your coins like they're our own (except in vending machines), and have to listen to the Quebec vs. the rest of Canada "divorce" wars. I have a good sense of Canadian dollar value - including $10+ omelets. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-03, 1:27 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
I once knew an engineering grad (4-year science program) who eschewed his chosen major in favor of a tiling business. Why? Because he could expect $30,000 a year in an engineering position, as opposed to $80,000+ in his new trade. Moral?
Stop Bit**ing and start your own business?
quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
Not quite, and the reason the starting wages are so low is that there is a glut of qualified talent on the market. Try taking a person off of the street with no exposure to Windows 2000 and see how fast it takes them to acquire all the skills necessary for an MSCE.
It can be, and was done for years, by paper mills all over the world in six weeks. It's called a paper cert, and without experience you can't be anything but a paper cert. That's the entire point if why experience means more than a peice of paper. Companies got burned by hiring people with paper and no experience, but not as much by people with experience an no paper - so guess which won. And with good reason. | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-03, 1:36 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
$8 an hour is the minimum wage here, and it's not enough to pay back student loans and not enough to pay for certifications.
....
Sorry, but $10 an hour is not worth the expense and effort of a four-year degree program, or any kind of certification (apart from maybe the A+).
RD
If you were in America you'd know that $8 is not the minimum wage. (went back and re-read everthing noticed you're trying to compare Canada to the US) Regardless of the country, it seems that your pricipals our skewed. Worth is determined after value is proven. Start with a wage - earn a different wage later.
Also, who said anyone MUST go to school? Who says that if one attends school that them MUST take out a loan? Who said IT was the only field you could make money in? No ONE.
It is not mandatory nor a requirement for life to addend a college/university. That is the choice the individual makes.
Who said anyone MUST obtain certifications? NO ONE. And in the quest to obtain the luxuries of a formal education and paper certifications - NO ONE makes anyone pay for all that in one year. It can be spread out over ones lifetime if necessary.
Our culture has an obsession with wanting everything right NOW.
If you cannot live for a short period of your life on $8 or $10 per hour, then perhaps your standard of living is out of whack.
When did it become the companies responsibility to provide high wages to employees? Seriously, when you work, do you ever wonder how much money you are earning per minute? What do you do during your work day to pay for your wages? What do you do during your work day to help the company stay in business?
My little segment of this country has been hit very hard with major white-collar lay-offs and complete company closings. Now, there are a bunch of people standing in the unemployement line WAITING for the state to GIVE them money.
If I hadn't been in that situation myself, I'd maybe have some sympathy. I don't. Certainly they have a right to file for unemployement. BUT the question will be, how many of them are REALLY willing to get a job? Every single one of this recently unemployed group has the right to think that they should have a job exactly like the one they lost. The reality is, if the job they had was good (stable) they wouldn't have lost it.
We each need to take responsibility for ourselves, but that doesn't automatically give us the right to make others suffer so we can satisify our WANTS.
Thousands of talented, smart, and well-deserving people graduate from school each year. At one time, the privilage of attending college was special, now everyone thinks that they MUST do it. Look at the percentage of people going to school. Where exactly do those jobs exist? Why does a company need to exist to employ a graduate? It doesn't. The mere fact that someone attends school - just gives you the understanding (or exposure) to skills of doing a job. It by no means makes you exclusively qualified - there are thousands more just like you.
Sorry to hear you have thousands of dollars to pay back for your education. When I attended college I just held a job, and earned money to pay for my classes and books. Imagine, I did this back in a time when I only earned $3.35 per hour. I had a car that was safe to drive, and I had a place to sleep.
Inflation exists because our culture is demanding it to happen. Where/when will it end? Another war?
Think before borrowing money. No one makes you borrow it. Plan ahead. | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-03, 2:26 pm |
| quote:
If you were in America you'd know that $8 is not the minimum wage. (went back and re-read everthing noticed you're trying to compare Canada to the US)
I believe the U.S. minimum wage is $5.15 an hour, which provides about two-thirds the buying power of the $1.25-per-hour minimum of the early 1960s (which throws cold water on neocon claims that everyone benefits from globalization).
quote:
Regardless of the country, it seems that your pricipals our skewed. Worth is determined after value is proven.
Worth is determined more by supply and demand than by actual value. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-03, 2:55 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by plantwiz
NO ONE makes anyone pay for all that [education, certifications, etc.] in one year. It can be spread out over ones lifetime if necessary.
Our culture has an obsession with wanting everything right NOW.
If you cannot live for a short period of your life on $8 or $10 per hour, then perhaps your standard of living is out of whack.
...
Sorry to hear you have thousands of dollars to pay back for your education. When I attended college I just held a job, and earned money to pay for my classes and books. Imagine, I did this back in a time when I only earned $3.35 per hour. I had a car that was safe to drive, and I had a place to sleep.
...
Think before borrowing money. No one makes you borrow it. Plan ahead.
Exactly. college is a good thing, but if you don't have parents to pay for it then you have to do it in a responsible manner. Think of it as your first life lesson.
Things have changed. A degree doesn't mean what it used to - especially in a down economy.
I was a waiter as a young man. It worked for me until I could manage a real career. I have NO student loans at all, yet I make $90k a year. An old friend of mine just went back to school and is doing a full load. He pays for his classes by getting a couple of grants and working as a waiter, and has been doing this for three years now. He has a motorcycle and an apartment by himself. Why can he do it, but not you? Is he another superman? Trust me, no. | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-03, 4:17 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
Exactly. college is a good thing, but if you don't have parents to pay for it then you have to do it in a responsible manner. Think of it as your first life lesson.
Things have changed. A degree doesn't mean what it used to - especially in a down economy.
I was a waiter as a young man. It worked for me until I could manage a real career. I have NO student loans at all, yet I make $90k a year. An old friend of mine just went back to school and is doing a full load. He pays for his classes by getting a couple of grants and working as a waiter, and has been doing this for three years now. He has a motorcycle and an apartment by himself. Why can he do it, but not you? Is he another superman? Trust me, no.
Absolutely correct!
My parents wouldn't pay for my education, and because I lived at home and drove an hour to class everyday, I didn't qualify for financial aide - due to my parents working. I eventually got sick of applying for grants and aide, and just paid for classes with my earnings.
I am not a genius, I'd say I have a few brain cells, and I have work ethic and a way to set priorities for myself. I took 18-22 credit hours and work 35-45 hours a week. It wasn't easy, but I completed 4 years of school (attended classes year round) in a little over two years.
I was able to hit the job market two years ahead of my friends. I worked multiple jobs, and volunteered much of my labor to gain experience. I made good contacts with people and have tried to keep my options open.
I never did hit the $90,000 mark, but I earn good money, can provide for my family and work for an ethical smaller company. Our business comes from word of mouth. As we take care of our clients, they speak with other companies and refer us. Very slow process to grow - but provides solid growth!
I have yet to see a 'golden egg' come easily. Even making a diamond takes time (and pressure).
I just hope that when I am ready to retire, the money I paid for taxes is NOT funding programs for a bunch of slackers who think that the government MUST take care of them. I don't expect money from SSI - that is why I am trying to plan ahead. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-03, 5:29 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by plantwiz
...I have work ethic and a way to set priorities for myself. I took 18-22 credit hours and work 35-45 hours a week. It wasn't easy, but I completed 4 years of school (attended classes year round) in a little over two years.
I was able to hit the job market two years ahead of my friends. I worked multiple jobs, and volunteered much of my labor to gain experience. I made good contacts with people and have tried to keep my options open.
I never did hit the $90,000 mark, but I earn good money, can provide for my family...
That's how you do it. Congrats on making something of yourself without whining about how hard your life is. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that that's why you have a job and some others can't find work. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-03, 5:54 pm |
| You know, it's funny. I just came here to learn from others. I like these forums to learn things like what books are best for a cert or what people think of a cert; how tough it is, etc.
Little did I know such an undercurrent of dissatisfaction flowed under the main certification-oriented forums. I don't think it's this way in most, in fact I'd say that the kind of person out there reading and posting to most forums like this are upbeat people with self-confidence and a positive attitude. Otherwise they'd have given up a long time ago.
But is seems that there are at least two individuals here that love to wallow in their hatred of IT. Lucky you! They win because some how they have the energy to keep posting the same repackaged garbage day in and day out for years.
Why? They claim altruistic reasons, but all they do is bring down those that have already made IT their careers. These people don't want to become nurses, they want to become IT workers. So why crap all over their excitement and youthful optimism. Some of these people will make it, unless they give up because a washed-up old has-been that didn't have what it takes scares them off. Nice, real nice. You're a true hero. Your mom would be proud!
Don't listen to these people. Money can still be made in IT. There are many on this site that have made a career in IT, and like it. Some just started, others have been doing it a long time. Just let me say: If you're the type that eats, breathes, and sleeps IT; if you're the one that fixes your friends' computers, if you can't imagine any other job - you'll make it in IT. | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-03, 7:09 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
You know, it's funny. I just came here to learn from others. I like these forums to learn things like what books are best for a cert or what people think of a cert; how tough it is, etc.
....
Don't listen to these people. Money can still be made in IT. There are many on this site that have made a career in IT, and like it. Some just started, others have been doing it a long time. Just let me say: If you're the type that eats, breathes, and sleeps IT; if you're the one that fixes your friends' computers, if you can't imagine any other job - you'll make it in IT.
TJLeeland,
I am impressed with your comments. This is my last under this topic, because it occured to me reading this post from you, that the original topic has become lost.
I too look under the certification topic to find out what people are doing/reading, and to just get other ideas.
Many of the past discussions tend to start with someone being p*$$-off about not finding work or not enjoying IT.
I bet you are right. Most of the people who have found success in IT are not even jumping into these discussions. There is good out there! It just gets squashed by complaints.
Again, I have enjoyed your comments. It sounds like you too, have made IT enjoyable for yourself. Enjoy continued success my friend! | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-03, 7:15 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by plantwiz
Enjoy continued success my friend!
And you as well. Thanks for your support and for your positive words as well. | |
| Margus 2003-10-06, 12:50 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psugak
Hi, I have a serious situation. I just graduated from a four year university
Hang yourself or jump off the cliff - if you so godem streetDUMM that you cannot make any money on your knowledge
ps! have you ever worked on IT field - in IT nobody cares about paper knowledge on the JOB experience matters
Here's a suggestion: instead of whining another 6 months of not having a job (and being so goddem smart) - go and do CHARITY IT WORK;
you will get experience - doing something good 4 other people for a change and Improving your carma - thats was my favorite excuse 4 volunteering
OR if you really are so goddem smart - go outhere and make your OWN COMPANY
be sure to HIRE ME - im smart 2 | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-06, 2:30 am |
| quote:
Some of these people will make it, unless they give up because a washed-up old has-been that didn't have what it takes scares them off. Nice, real nice. You're a true hero. Your mom would be proud!
What about the ones that wouldn't make it? If I save one person from investing their lives and everything they have in a career that can end up in such a ruinous, devastating fashion that they end their life in the company parking lot with a self-inflicted gunshot to the head (like a laid-off Bank of America developer did in the SF Bay Area recently), that's plain old social responsibility.
You mention that some will make it, but what about those that will not? Do they just get discarded like so much garbage, like corporate America does all the time with the people it no longer has a use for?
RD | |
| Ngittins 2003-10-06, 2:34 am |
| I'm a butcher by trade - I was on $48.000 AU per year... I've been in I.T for 5 years now and I'm on $36.000 per year.
I got into this industry so I can have a family life, that's all well and good but we're working in I.T, we do all the study & training in the world to keep current and we "I" get paid bloody peanuts...
A truck driver, garbo, shit shovel etc get paid more.... Now what does that say... The only thing that's keeping the bread and milk coming in at the moment is my small computer business on the side... And just to top it off - when you get certified my employer says he isn't going to pay for what your worth..... WEll I'm now spening more time on my business working in small businesses.
I.T isn't whats it's made out to be any more. | |
| Margus 2003-10-06, 3:22 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
You know, it's funny. I just came here to learn from others. I like these forums to learn things like what books are best for a cert or what people think of a cert; how tough it is, etc.
BLAH-BLAH-BLAH
if you can't imagine any other job - you'll make it in IT.
Is it just me missing a point in a long story or there was no point??? | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-06, 4:44 am |
| I think the point was that if you are willing to live to work instead of work to live, you'll make it in IT. | |
| Margus 2003-10-06, 5:04 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
I think the point was that if you are willing to live to work instead of work to live, you'll make it in IT.
Thnx
(still does not make much sense to me but at least less to read  )
I guess what you were saying that if you no life <other than it> and spend all your time on it then you can make it;
I can be on Computer 24/7 - ill never get bored with it (ok-ok i watch tv also) | |
| hilltops 2003-10-06, 5:47 am |
| Most people in IT fall into IT and cant get out. IT Management tends to be people who stared out in Accounts for some reason. Any way. To the point
Certifications are only good for background. they dont get you jobs. As per BSc' and BAs I personaly have never used any knowlage gained from mine in a work enviroment.
In my experiance of working in IT (13 years) what you learn is IT is no different to any other job. Managers don't know what resources they have never mind how to deploy them!
If you realy want a job in IT you have to learn not to care, from my experience the best way in is via the finance department | |
| netmankc 2003-10-06, 9:39 am |
| You have just been introduced into the real world!! I was off work for almost 6 months last year. I have the years of experience plus a college degree. There are so many IT people out of work right now that you will have to have some type of experience to get a good paying job. My advice, like the other person's advice from earlier, is to accept a very entry level tech job and gain the experience. I know that isn't what you wanted to hear, but that is reality! A college degree and cert don't promise you a job!! | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-06, 2:11 pm |
| quote:
(still does not make much sense to me but at least less to read
In other words, you devote your life to your job, instead of having a job to finance a life. | |
| johndrosa 2003-10-06, 2:19 pm |
| Psugak,
Well, things are rough all over, but they are coming back around. FINALLY!!!
I wouldn't whine too much, try having 22 years of experience in the Converged Technologies arena (Voice, Video and Data Networking). Recently finished a bachelors in E-Business. Part way through my MCSE (more for administrators then for Senior Engineering and Architect/Consulting level) and CCNA (same again). Worked for a global, #4 Electronics and Electrical Company as a Senior Network Engineer and Professional Services Architect/Consultant for the past 15 years and was laid off due to the economy this past April AND I haven't landed anything yet. AND I have a family to support. Try that on for size, better to keep the best perspective you possibly can and go forward into the job market with that positive attitude dude (I am).
Things could be worse for you.
Good Luck! | |
| Ngittins 2003-10-06, 4:29 pm |
| From time to time I jump on this form to check everything out, to see what's new and to see whose go what just to help you steam ahead just that little bit further...
Everyone here is going for the same goal, we all seem to have the same attitude to get what were after and to what makes it even better is everyone here has a success story that motivates people – well I think so anyway…. and what makes more real is we’re not all 15 & 16 years old – we all have past life experiences
Good to see there’s reality amongst this virtual world. Man chack out the size of this forum – it’s hug….
Cya
PS – For the Rugby Union fans ----- GO THE WALLABIES | |
| inneroracle 2003-10-06, 8:32 pm |
| Hello,
I worked in the field for 7 years and got laid off. I had industry experience, a B.S. in ISM with a 4.0 GPA, and I had some industry certs -- including some that had expired. Nobody even called me for an interview -- after looking for 6 months. One day, out of the blue, an old colleague I hadn't spoken with in years called me. I told him that I'd take anything he had -- so, I make less money now, but I have a job. Knowing somebody can get you an interview -- but, it is what you do with the opportunity. They hired me because of my experience.
The days of hiring college grads at $60K a year appear to have gone by the wayside for awhile. There are folks who used to make 6 figures taking jobs making $50K a year right now. Employers have us over a barrel when it comes to wages.
If I could make a suggestion -- get your certifications -- there are schools out there that offer internships -- and this would be a great way to get some experience.
Good luck to you!! | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-07, 1:45 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
You mention that some will make it, but what about those that will not? Do they just get discarded like so much garbage, like corporate America does all the time with the people it no longer has a use for?
I was told not to get into IT by my Uncle. Worst advice I have ever recieved. I make four times what I did then, and I would never have made this much without a four year degree.
I NEVER tell anyone not take a chance. Three years ago my brother left a management position to sell beer and wine. I thought it was a big mistake, and for the first year it was. He took me to the 49ers and Lions game Sunday with tickets given to him by a client. He stays at vinyards all over Napa for free with his girl of the week, and expects to make almost $70k this year. If I'd had told him what I thought was best, and had he listened to me, HE might be out in a parking lot with a gun as well.
YOU cannot answer those questions for another person. It's their life to live. Just because you don't have what it takes doesn't mean that IT may not be the best thing to ever happen to them like it was for me. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-07, 1:47 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
YOU cannot answer those questions for another person. It's their life to live. Just because you don't have what it takes doesn't mean that IT may not be the best thing to ever happen to them like it was for me.
Exactly. Every person has to figure out what they need to do for themselves. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-07, 1:48 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ngittins
I'm a butcher by trade - I was on $48.000 AU per year... I've been in I.T for 5 years now and I'm on $36.000 per year.
I got into this industry so I can have a family life, that's all well and good but we're working in I.T, we do all the study & training in the world to keep current and we "I" get paid bloody peanuts...
A truck driver, garbo, shit shovel etc get paid more.... Now what does that say... The only thing that's keeping the bread and milk coming in at the moment is my small computer business on the side... And just to top it off - when you get certified my employer says he isn't going to pay for what your worth..... WEll I'm now spening more time on my business working in small businesses.
I.T isn't whats it's made out to be any more.
So go back to being a butcher. That seemed to work better for you. Not everyone is cut out to be in IT. Like I said, you need to eat, breath, sleep IT; you need to be the one that fixes your friends computers, you need to love this business. Otherwise you're just along for the ride and you don't belong. Passion counts for something in EVERY field. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-07, 1:51 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
I think the point was that if you are willing to live to work instead of work to live, you'll make it in IT.
That is NOT what I said. I said you have to love computers. I work NO MORE than 40 hours a week, and WILL NOT work the weekends. I have a wife I just married and need to spend time with.
Of course that's not the case every single week, but it is the norm. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-07, 1:53 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Margus
Thnx
(still does not make much sense to me but at least less to read )
I guess what you were saying that if you no life <other than it> and spend all your time on it then you can make it;
I can be on Computer 24/7 - ill never get bored with it (ok-ok i watch tv also)
Again, not what I said. Perhaps some reading comprehension classes are in order? | |
| Papiya 2003-10-07, 1:59 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
That is NOT what I said. I said you have to love computers. I work NO MORE than 40 hours a week, and WILL NOT work the weekends. I have a wife I just married and need to spend time with.
Of course that's not the case every single week, but it is the norm.
I think that "you need to eat, breath, sleep IT" comment might have confused some people. It did sound as though you were living to work when you said that, not working to live. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-07, 2:01 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by inneroracle
out of the blue, an old colleague I hadn't spoken with in years called me.
See, there's also a thing called networking. Do people like you? Most jobs are filled through an inside track like this one. If I lost my job tomorrow I could call a number of colleagues and have a job rather quickly, even if it didn't pay what I make right now. But if you're not liked by those that work with you that major opening is closed. That's your own fault, not jobs going to India.
What I really don't understand is: All of you with so much hatred toward IT, why are you still here? And if you can't make it and it's been a year, don't you get the hint? Either you don't interview well, don't know what you're doing, have poor references, have a bad resume, or SOMETHING. Have you tried going to a professional resume writer? Taken interviewing classes? Asked your friends if you stink? | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-07, 2:12 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
I think that "you need to eat, breath, sleep IT" comment might have confused some people. It did sound as though you were living to work when you said that, not working to live.
OK, point taken - since it comes from someone that tends to have a positive outlook. By eat, breath, sleep I mean you need to have a passion for it. I'm sorry if that was confusing.
If you hate math don't go into accounting, even if you like the money. You'll hate your job. If you don't love people and pressure, don't go into sales. If driving isn't something you like, truck driving isn't for you. If you don't love computers then don't go into IT. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-07, 2:16 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
Again, not what I said. Perhaps some reading comprehension classes are in order?
In consideration of papiya's comments, I take back this statement. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-07, 2:18 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
OK, point taken - since it comes from someone that tends to have a positive outlook. By eat, breath, sleep I mean you need to have a passion for it. I'm sorry if that was confusing.
If you hate math don't go into accounting, even if you like the money. You'll hate your job. If you don't love people and pressure, don't go into sales. If driving isn't something you like, truck driving isn't for you. If you don't love computers then don't go into IT.
Well said. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-07, 2:40 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
Well said.
It took me long enough! Thanks. | |
| Margus 2003-10-07, 6:41 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
It took me long enough! Thanks.
At least somebody has time to write long essays....
Can I hire you to write me my essay about networking for bachelor degree? | |
| Margus 2003-10-07, 6:43 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
In consideration of papiya's comments, I take back this statement.
Please do not - not all the people ar smart as she (or have time to figure things out)
And yes - where can I get this reading class; hire you perhaps  ? | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-07, 8:26 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Margus
And yes - where can I get this reading class; hire you perhaps?
Oh, that hurts! Ow! Please stop! Please! Your wit and cutting remarks are too much to take.
Start here
After that you may want to go here.
Finally...
Of course, there's also this new thing sweeping the country called a school. You can usually learn all three of these things there, and much more!
By the way, in the interest of everyone else reading this forum and trying to do something other than childishly insult others I'm not going to continue with you beyond this point. If you have something intelligent to say rather than telling me my post is too long and you don't see the point I'll gladly engage you in conversation. But if the best you can do is what I've just seen you're not only not worth debating, you're a leach on the intellectual energy of this forum. At least DivDude has an IQ in the triple digits. I may not agree with him but when he replies he replies to the content. Anyone can insult someone by making general statements such as you have done. If you want to impress (or even effectively insult) people you'll have to do better than that! | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-08, 3:46 am |
| quote:
Well said.
Since IT prospects are soaring in India, I understand your enthusiasm. | |
| Margus 2003-10-08, 1:04 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TJLeeland
Oh, that hurts! Ow! Please stop! Please! Your wit and cutting remarks are too much to take.
Start here
After that you may want to go here.
Finally...
Of course, there's also this new thing sweeping the country called a school. You can usually learn all three of these things there, and much more!
THnx - actually these links might come handy - (not because trying to read long posts in here at late night) but because every once in a while I have to read 1000 page technology books in order to complete a certification and they are sometimes so boring or do not make sense (since in exams there are a lot of things you probably never use) | |
| Papiya 2003-10-08, 1:07 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
Since IT prospects are soaring in India, I understand your enthusiasm.
Competition is stiff in India as well. The point being made above was that if you hate computers and the IT industry, you are not suited for this line of work, and might as well find something else to do that will fulfill you. No amount of money is worth doing something that you hate. | |
| Margus 2003-10-08, 1:58 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
No amount of money is worth doing something that you hate.
I LOVE MY JOB! | |
| mcbevwiz 2003-10-08, 2:42 pm |
| The economy is poor. And all of the large companies such as IBM, Microsoft, and EDS are transferring departments to overseas for less pay. We need a new president who will worry about the USA employees. Clinton made sure the Internet was a priority which made a lot of individuals rich. Prime example: Mark Cuban the owner of the Dallas Mavericks. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-08, 2:45 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by mcbevwiz
The economy is poor. And all of the large companies such as IBM, Microsoft, and EDS are transferring departments to overseas for less pay. We need a new president who will worry about the USA employees. Clinton made sure the Internet was a priority which made a lot of individuals rich. Prime example: Mark Cuban the owner of the Dallas Mavericks.
As long as the American "war on terrorism" continues, any president will milk it for what it's worth and try to divert attention from the economy. Bush is not unique in that regards. | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-08, 3:04 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by mcbevwiz
The economy is poor. And all of the large companies such as IBM, Microsoft, and EDS are transferring departments to overseas for less pay. We need a new president who will worry about the USA employees. Clinton made sure the Internet was a priority which made a lot of individuals rich. Prime example: Mark Cuban the owner of the Dallas Mavericks.
The Pres doesn't make those decisions. Regardless if it is Mr. Clinton or Mr. Bush, our country has a tri-way system of checks and balances.
The smartest person in the world (if such a thing existed) could be in office and couldn't make a difference on their own. OUR dollar (vastly inflated as it is) determines what is successful or not. We can spend our money or save it - it is the people who decide.
Your comment, is unfortunately the way many people in the US feel - SOMEONE NEEDS TO SAVE US FROM OURSELVES - if YOU want things do be different than the process begins with YOU! - and that applies to everyone (not intending to attack you personally). | |
| Papiya 2003-10-08, 3:07 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by plantwiz
Your comment, is unfortunately the way many people in the US feel - SOMEONE NEEDS TO SAVE US FROM OURSELVES - if YOU want things do be different than the process begins with YOU! - and that applies to everyone (not intending to attack you personally).
Good call. If you want true freedom, try a little responsibility along with it. You can't separate one from the other. | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-08, 3:35 pm |
| quote:
Clinton made sure the Internet was a priority which made a lot of individuals rich.
The President is, in fact, very weak with regard to economic power (which rests mainly with Congress), but one area of strength is fiscal policy, and the Clinton Administration used this power to keep the dollar strong. This helped price American goods and services out of the market, while making imports much more attractive to American consumers, and over the long term, it led to industries moving overseas and many American jobs being lost.
The Bush Administration is taking careful steps to bring the greenback down to more realistic levels; which will be of great benefit to the U.S. economy over time. At some point, due to the massive trade deficit, the dollar would have had to fall until it was eliminated, but to have had that happen suddenly would be a disaster.
RD | |
| mcbevwiz 2003-10-08, 3:59 pm |
| The Pres doesn't make those decisions. Regardless if it is Mr. Clinton or Mr. Bush, our country has a tri-way system of checks and balances.
It's hard to be responsible and make purchases when you don't have a job. There are alot of unemployed US IT people. And alot more IT graduates with no hope of finding a job. Bush and his administration are more concern with other countries and not the US economy. Bush(other republicans) and CEO's of large companies who are republicans don't care about the 35K to 100K a year employees. They only care about the upper class(500K to 40 million dollar). Republicans don't push for jobs nor do they care to place incentives out there for US companies/corporations to maintain jobs in the US. Clinton and his administrations recognized what was importantant for the lower class. There will be a change just before election so Bush can try to push for 2nd term. Sorry to say, he will not be elected as President. There are to many unemployed US citizens who will not vote for Bush. One exception to the rule..I do like Arnold in California. It could be because of his ties with the Kennedies. | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-08, 4:04 pm |
| FYI there are a lot of wealthy Democrats who push for free trade and believe in exporting American jobs (look at the Hollywood studios that have films produced out-of-country because it's cheaper, and Cisco Systems sending its engineering work offshore). Meanwhile, you have Republicans like Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO) who have been at the forefront of the fight to defend American tech jobs (he was on CNN Crossfire trading blows with a spokesman for the ITAA).
RD | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-08, 4:14 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by mcbevwiz
It's hard to be responsible and make purchases when you don't have a job. There are alot of unemployed US IT people. And alot more IT graduates with no hope of finding a job. .......
When you use someone else's words - be certain to give them credit.
TO respond to your comment. Why is it your fellow countryman's fault if IT people don't have jobs?
If you don't have a job, go get one. It may not be in the IT field.
People are unemployed, because they are not working. Go get a job. It may not be what you want, but if you don't want to see immigrants let into the country on work visa's and you don't want jobs going overseas, then OUR (the USA's) unemployeed need to get off their butt and get a job.
Just because someone is trained in a particular field - doesn't mean they are entitled to a job in that field.
Training is what help give a person creditials. Experience and creditials help an employee justify a wage. But on a person's first day in a company - they haven't proven themself worthy of anything more than a chance.
Boy I am getting so sick of this topic - I even refused to comment for days, and couldn't help myself anylonger.
GET OFF YOUR BUTT - GET A JOB! No one person is better or more deserving than any other. ONLY YOU can make a difference in your current situation - NOT THE GOVERNMENT, NOT YOUR EMPLOYER, and not your mommy and daddy (or for some mommies and daddies).
Certainly there are more posts from Americans in this forum, but I don't see members from the other countries complaining anywhere near as much as the people from the US. We are such a bunch of spoiled brats. No wonder everyone freaked out then East Coast (Detroit, Canada, Ohio, PA & NY) lost power this summer. People have lost the ability to be flexible. Everything isn't perfect 100% of the time. That is why you save, and have things in reserve - for when times get tough.
It sounds like times may be tough for some people right now - complaining doesn't fix it (you may feel better for a minute) but how do you plan to fix your own situation???
Grow up! | |
| Papiya 2003-10-08, 4:15 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DivxGuy
FYI there are a lot of wealthy Democrats who push for free trade and believe in exporting American jobs (look at the Hollywood studios that have films produced out-of-country because it's cheaper, and Cisco Systems sending its engineering work offshore). Meanwhile, you have Republicans like Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO) who have been at the forefront of the fight to defend American tech jobs (he was on CNN Crossfire trading blows with a spokesman for the ITAA).
RD
I don't think you can lay the blame for the current situation solely at the foot of one political party or the president alone. | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-08, 5:23 pm |
| quote:
I don't think you can lay the blame for the current situation solely at the foot of one political party or the president alone.
Which was my whole point to the poster who seems to blame the GOP for the problems facing America. | |
| JeffM 2003-10-08, 10:30 pm |
| THE END. | |
| mcbevwiz 2003-10-12, 12:09 am |
| No. Not the end.
Yes, there are Democrats involved but it all starts with the President. And it will show in the election. The main topic to address is US Jobs whether it's a Republican or a Democrat.
For all of you who are employed, ask your neighbor or relative whose out of work, how do they feel about the current party in office. The majority 9 out of 10 of your unemployed US friends and family will have a bitter response about BUSH. The focus will be on him. It will show in the 2004 election.
Americans are always complaining and placing blame somewhere else and looking for change. It's the American way. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Papiya---
As long as the American "war on terrorism" continues, any president will milk it for what it's worth and try to divert attention from the economy. Bush is not unique in that regards.
I agree. It will cost him the presidency. | |
| plantwiz 2003-10-13, 11:18 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mcbevwiz
No. Not the end.
......
Yes, This debate is done.
Go get a job. If there are none in your area, you might need to move.
THE END (thanks JeffM) | |
| Papiya 2003-10-13, 11:40 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mcbevwiz
No. Not the end.
Yes, there are Democrats involved but it all starts with the President. And it will show in the election. The main topic to address is US Jobs whether it's a Republican or a Democrat.
For all of you who are employed, ask your neighbor or relative whose out of work, how do they feel about the current party in office. The majority 9 out of 10 of your unemployed US friends and family will have a bitter response about BUSH. The focus will be on him. It will show in the 2004 election.
Americans are always complaining and placing blame somewhere else and looking for change. It's the American way. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Papiya---
As long as the American "war on terrorism" continues, any president will milk it for what it's worth and try to divert attention from the economy. Bush is not unique in that regards.
I agree. It will cost him the presidency.
The "war on terrorism" can only continue with the acquiescence of the American people. If they disapprove, Bush will have no choice if he wants to remain president or to have any influence. That's the problem with a democracy . . . if there is someone to blame, the people need to take responsibility for their sorry state and not blame it on one person as though he were the sole cause. Bush is the figurehead, but not the boogieman. | |
| DivxGuy 2003-10-13, 3:04 pm |
| The U.S. economic situation has no easy solutions.
Ending the Clinton administration's support for a high dollar will help (by making U.S goods and services more competitive). However, the revolution in communications technology has resulted in many categories of skilled labor becoming commodities that can be sourced abroad cheaper. Combined with productivity breakthroughs, this means that U.S. firms can boost output without a commensurate boost in staff, which makes for a struggling jobs market.
RD | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-14, 8:23 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
The "war on terrorism" can only continue with the acquiescence of the American people. If they disapprove, Bush will have no choice if he wants to remain president or to have any influence. That's the problem with a democracy . . . if there is someone to blame, the people need to take responsibility for their sorry state and not blame it on one person as though he were the sole cause. Bush is the figurehead, but not the boogieman.
You're right. One side blames the current president, the other side blames the past president. It's a very immature and naive way to look at the world. No one man has made this economy what it is today. We just came off the best economic growth this country had ever seen (under Clinton) which then HAD to end at some point, which it did (UNDER CLINTON). Yes, blame can be laid at both's feet, but do ANY of you think this down cycle was unexpected? IT WAS OVERDUE!
It's all Bozo the Clown's fault if you ask me. That red nose of his... Who can work with that red nose glaring at you from your mind's eye? Just waiting for a moment of weakness...ready to pounch when...ARGG! | |
| Supertech 2003-10-14, 9:04 pm |
| Ya know, I think we're all Bozos on this bus. | |
| TJLeeland 2003-10-15, 6:28 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Supertech
Ya know, I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
A bus full of Bozos? Now I'll never get to sleep tonight! Thanks a lot!
All those noses...red...glaring...evil... | |
| tweaker 2003-10-21, 2:04 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psugak
Hi, I have a serious situation. I just graduated from a four year university with a bachelors in business administration specializing in Management of information systems. I also have a minor in computer science and A+ Certification. After all that, I am UNEMPLOYED!!!! And no one will even call me back or anything! Only two interviews in six months!! man im discouraged! what should i do...what do they want from me , geez. My ex gf who had half the g.p.a. as me is a nurse now and has a good job and good security. but not I! not the person with actually three degrees and a g.p.a. of 3.46 ....what should i do????????
I was in the same boat as you, except I was unemployed for a year before I decided to enlist in the military. With a BS degree you can enlist as an officer and they will hook you up sweet. Plus you don't have to worry about layoffs or a biased job market like the one we're in.
Maybe thats something you should think about. | |
| Margus 2003-10-21, 3:18 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by tweaker
I was in the same boat as you, except I was unemployed for a year before I decided to enlist in the military. With a BS degree you can enlist as an officer and they will hook you up sweet. Plus you don't have to worry about layoffs or a biased job market like the one we're in.
Maybe thats something you should think about.
Thank god that at least military will put your XXX to work - otherwise we would have another highly educated person on wellfare
GO U.S military
In Estonia it works a bit differently - you have to go to military whether you want it or not - but idea is same - first you train a bit and then you just waist your time (for 10$ per month salary);
LUCKY you - you are in US army | |
| jreast1 2003-10-21, 4:09 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psugak
Hi, I have a | | |