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The Quality of an MCSE
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| onoski 2002-06-12, 2:22 pm |
| Judging from the current IT job market which is not looking up at all it goes to show that an individual with mcse status should have a certain quality.
I for one still think that an mcse as a vendor qualification is what most employers use in gauging an individuals knowledge and experience of using the product. I don't think attaining an mcse would land you a job, but it can help in aiding you towards the right direction. I recently posted a thread entitled "what motivates you to study IT" I got a few replies which in a sense does not reflect the point the thread was intended as most people see or view IT as a means to making good money quick. This is not true as gone are the dot.com boom times, what really should motivate a true ITer in these times should be a passion for IT and determination to succeed regardless of all odds or barriers.
I have seen too many people with mcse's that don't know jack about the basis when it comes to MS software administration etc. Individuals like this take away the true quality of the cert. Please, I did not start this thread to start a flame so before you shot me let me land. My point mcse still has it's attributes and quality as a cert.
However, I would appreciate if people taking these exams sit down install the product work with it and finally get a good book and work through it. It would help you when you finally land an interview as IT managers want to know and see you explain how you would resolve an M$ product problem. Lastly, experience can not be substituted for certs try and get it even if it means low wages. We all started from somewhere so should you.
I am fed up of hearing paper mcse this and that as it truly diminishes the quality and standard of a well deserved mcse individual. Any comments welcome. Am out said enough. | |
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| For those of us who have been in the game since the pre dot.gone days, I couldn't agree with you more.
A piece of paper does not make the engineer. The quality of knowledge and more importantly the work ethic makes a good engineer. Certifications and degrees should be viewed for what they are.
The MCSE takes a beating, but if any of you were in the business in the early to mid 90's you will recall how many office and HR administrators had a CNE for 3.11 and 3.12 so that they could add new users as they were hired. Most certifications (CCIE excluded) go through a period of time in which their value is doubted.
A cert and or a degree will get you an interview, however, how you compose yourself during the interview is what will get you the job.
i guess my long winded point is that experience and the ability to back up your cert with actions is what truly matters. | |
| wbafrank 2002-06-12, 6:05 pm |
| I have have read your points with interest as I thought this was going to be one of those posts!!
Maybe it is me, but I feel that a certificate only shows that you have reached a certain level of achievement not that you are an expert in the field - this comes with "real life" experience.
As I posted in another thread I blame company's who now require MCSE as an minimum for a helpdesk post. Gone are the days where they would actually train you on the job and pay to get you certified. Though I don't like this, it is fact of life and until company's become realistic I think this problem will go on for some time. | |
| jackiechan 2002-06-12, 11:27 pm |
| Experience is good depending on what you gained from your experience. I know people who have 5 years experience loading backup tapes or imaging desktops. This is considered IT experience and they do get picked over someone who has an MCSE with no experience for a job. It is unfortunate how this happens. If I was trying to gain entry into IT this is what I would do:
-bring your MCSE scores if you have them to interview. If it is around 900/1000 then this should impress.
-bring any other cert scores eg CNA, CNAA, etc to interview. Again if you have 900+ this should impress.
-bring written references and show them to the interviewer.
-be prepared for behaviourial questions.
-the longer the interview the better your chances. | |
| kappagamma698 2002-06-13, 12:54 am |
| Jackie chan I would never bring my scores to an interview they mean that you can answer questions correctly, not that you know what you are doing when sitting infront of a domain controller or another box that has just crashed or is about to.
I think showing off your scores is one of those things that people that have nothing else to back there skills up with do, just my opion, I dont not mean to upset anyone if this does.
Those people that are doing the backups and the reimaging are just paying their dues that we all have to do. I know a couple of really good admins NT and Unix that started at with backups and worked their way up and have the experience and know how to do the job.
I would personally hire the person from the backups and reimaging if I knew they were hard working and working towards more knowledge which does not always mean Certs.
The person with the MCSE may have just sat at home and read some books and taken some practice exams and passed the tests while the other person is in the action seeing first hand what is going on. Because no matter what job you have if you want to know more about some of the other postions around just talk to those people be it the DBA's admins or helpdesk and they will let you know what there is to know and how somethings work. They may not go into depth but it is a start, and much better than a book. (once again studing is good but hands on is always the best)
Well I will stop this thread and hope that I did not offend anyone which is never my purpose. | |
| onoski 2002-06-13, 2:38 am |
| [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kappagamma698
Those people that are doing the backups and the reimaging are just paying their dues that we all have to do. I know a couple of really good admins NT and Unix that started at with backups and worked their way up and have the experience and know how to do the job.
I would personally hire the person from the backups and reimaging if I knew they were hard working and working towards more knowledge which does not always mean Certs.
I think you are being bias as most employers don't even want to give you the chance to start at the bottom. You didn't take this into account in your post, or did I mis read your post. How would an mcse gain this experience. Remember no free lunches at least in this generation of ours.
The person with the MCSE may have just sat at home and read some books and taken some practice exams and passed the tests while the other person is in the action seeing first hand what is going on.
Again, your biasness shows again, why I do not support just reading books and passing this exam. I think you mis-read the original post as I was against this.
Because no matter what job you have if you want to know more about some of the other postions around just talk to those people be it the DBA's admins or helpdesk and they will let you know what there is to know and how somethings work. They may not go into depth but it is a start, and much better than a book. (once again studing is good but hands on is always the best)
I think you forgot to take into account that every IT department and how IT is integrated is different. Hence I think getting idea of these in the field helps, but it is of no relevance in this case.
Lastly, just because you have gained years of experence in the IT field does not mean that you are indispensable. I know alot of IT experienced people who have be laid off and still can't find work. What would you say about that then? | |
| RichardJW 2002-06-13, 8:43 pm |
| I have been witness to an inordinate number of threads relating to the relative worth of the MCSE.
The MCSE will not decrease your chances of getting an interview.
What is it that really matters? Certifications? Experience?
None of these things truly matter. This is what matters: Can you do the job? Are you competent to do the job? That is what matters.
Before you tell me to get a reality check remember that this is what an effective recruiter or interviewer should be trying to guage. | |
| kappagamma698 2002-06-13, 9:20 pm |
| I agree that the only relevent thing is wether you can do the job or not.
we only do this certification maze because that is what hiring managers want, I wonder how many people would work on certs if they knew that there was no way in H@LL that it would help them out. I bet that almost everyone on this board would put their books down and just work on the ins and outs of the system, it may take reading some books but you will not have those out there that are getting the jobs by just reading the books and taking the tests.
I also agree that "just because you have gained years of experence in the IT field does not mean that you are indispensable" But you are more likely to keep your job then lose it to a person that has no experience, but you may lose it to the guy loading tapes because he has a better aptitude for learning and he has proven it. | |
| Kasor 2002-06-14, 10:08 am |
| MCSE certification give sys admin and network enginner a fundmental background on networking.
I still believe experience and hand-on are the key. Many new recuriter don't care about the truth experience. As long as you are MCSE. A good IT stuffing company will look into your skill and develope your training for the right job profile.
So, the Quality of MCSE depend on "you" |
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