CCNP - The State of Cisco Supply/Demand

Author

The State of Cisco Supply/Demand

comblues

2002-06-05, 8:28 am

As of March 31, 2001

Cisco announced that there were 35,000 attempts for the CCIE Written.

18,000+ passed it.

At the same time about 18,000+ lab attempts to date.

Around 5800 or so current CCIE's (with about 476 not being current i.e decertified).

We all know that the numbers have swollen by nearly 4000 more CCIE's in the last 15 months.

The Cisco Academy claims 297,000 enrolled students this year.

The job-market was going bust anyway after Y2K and before 9/11.

However with the injection of 297,000 more "young" souls into a market the rates were bound to decrease and the jobs opportunities as well.

The Six-Figure CCIE may be a thing of the past in another year or two.

By most accounts it has been reduced to 60-90k as we speak.

At least that's what the jobs boards are offering on dice and monster.

Do a search on simple CCIE and the 40 or so jobs that show up do not pay much, period.

Lot of expense and learning just to make an MCSE's wages.

But then MCSE's are starting to show up as help-desk people 10-15 per hour. Maybe 20???

Signs of the times.

The good old degree is starting to look good.

I'm in Orlando Florida and they try to call it a technology hub...

Reality is Help Desk Hub for Technology Companies (Oracle, Dell, AT&T, Sprint, etc.).

All want the most bang for their buck.

So our 70,000 IT Professionals are taking it up the wrong end...

Jobs - Hell last year if you looked there were 70-100 for most everything and most paid well...

This year if 5 are posted in a week or two. You feel like ti is a thunderstorm.

We are a desert. Very dry here...

I'm trying to relocate for wetter landscape...

Fact is even the training centers here are suffering.

Dershya is trying to sell (One of the long-time training centers).

IADT is trying to pump as many people as can qualify through their program, same fot ITT Tech and Tech Train...

Next we have one of our the local recruiters who closed 3 of their 4 offices this quarter.

We have a major contract/consult firm that will layoff 1800 IT Techs (Programmers, Techs, Admins, Engineers, Project Managers, etc.) any day now.

Nope if you got a job in Central Florida you better hang on to it.

Cause we are dryer than the Sahara...

I feel for the kids spending 10,000+ to get thier A+ and MCSE and will barely be able to get a 10.00 per hour job...

Go to the community college spend 2500-3500.00 and get a career that pays 20-30 per hour.

And I am no light-weight either.

I'm a speaker/consultant, Admin/Engineer, and Designer/Tech. Got most of the skillsets and experience people like to see.

I'm also fairly young - only 33.

So it is not an age issue.

I've been in IT in the area since 1993 and and overall since 1987.

I have tons of experience.

I even dumb my resume doen to simply tech or admin just to get a bite...

Not even a call back

So let's see -> Got excellent skills and references; got certs and education, tons of actual experience...

Yet got no job...

Unless the H-1B's want to get a job at McDonald's with me, it's as dry here as anywhere.

Yes, I do get replies for the 100-125k jobs out of state.

They say my resume looks good but they want a "local" candidate...

So much for the few 6 digit jobs that are left.

Not even call-backs on the local 35-45k jobs...

This is sad...

Signs of the times...

Hopefully better soon...

Just rescheduled my CCIE Lab...

Getting tough in these parts...

SurfinUSA

2002-06-05, 9:07 am

I do think you are right about the market getting saturated and salaried coming down. However, I do think that the 35-40K jobs you are applying for are beneath you, and they know that. So why waste thier time, because the way they figure it is that they call you up, and you say you are not interested because of the money issue. They expect, with your credentials, "he is a 90-???K a year guy, not a 35-40K a year guy, so why bother?" I have seen this myself in just trying to get a PC tech job (when I was unemployed). I couldnt get them to call me back for a first interview, when I was very well qualified. They think, he will just get the job until he finds something else better, then quit us.

wirechild

2002-06-05, 11:53 am

Although I just lost my job recently I have lookig for the last couple months and I am seeing the exact same things you are.

I am completely frustrated and stressed out to a point that it is time to consider a different career field and at 30 I don't have a lot of time to prepare for a new career. I recently went to a very large job fair and there was at lest 200 companies hiring in all fields except IT & Telco. If I was a nurse a could be making $40 an hour with the same experience that I have in the IT field and the cost of training would have been all paid for by hospitals instead of most coming out of my pocket.

I have applied for at least 30 jobs and not a single call back. One thing I did find out about one of the jobs I sent my resume to they had recieved about 600 applicants in a week after posting.

I am consider doing something related to database administration. I see a lot of jobs in this area that have been open a while. It shouldn't be too hard for me to migrate to this.

Maybe something will change soon!!!

drizzits

2002-06-05, 1:55 pm

I say it all the time to the people coming in here you wna tstability you want secruity this is not the place. I wish I new how to program as good as I know networking that is a stable steady market.

sean34

2002-06-05, 9:50 pm

wirechild,

I feel the same why you do man...
Im skeptical about the whole industry and the thought of a career change is in my mind as well. Im 24, got a 4yr degree/certs, and experience with a good company but i feel if i get laid off Ill be unemployed for some time. lets hope it doesnt come to that

best of luck though in whatever you do...

Also, the DBA world is as competitive as any, it will be just as hard to find employment in that dept...or so ive heard cuz i had similiar thoughts of jumping ship.

peace

sean34

frank300zx

2002-06-06, 1:17 am

Its the same story here in BayArea California!! The Mecca of high tech!!. I am 37, MBA, CNE, MCSE, CCNA, soon to be CCNP with 15 years of hands on high tech. No phone calls yet for last 3 months, All I got was a job with 45% pay cut to manage helpdesk. Basically making 65K as oppose to my $129K pervious job. I figure I better get that job to pay the rent, and then thinking about opening up a restaurant...Even a hot dog stand is better than all this high tech crap!!! By the way...Boy George has no plans for high tech industry, maybe we would be better off in the oil industry!! So for the next 2 years..do whatever you can to survive even if you have to flip hamburgers!!!

kool_kat

2002-06-06, 2:35 am

I'm over here in Sacramento, CA (darn kings) and have been unemployed for over 9 months. Came close a few times in finding work....but there is barely any tech jobs out here. I have a finance degree and because I've been working in tech for the last 3 years, all the finance people won't hire because they want experience. I have my MSCE and CCNA and 2 yrs of NT systems and 1 yr of network support. I'm working on my CCNP. Its hard out here. Worked for a fortune 100 company, got laid off and still can't find work. I can't take it no more. Can't even get a response from anyone. Whats goin' on!

ZacDogg

2002-06-06, 6:56 am

Keep looking, keep trying. Took me a full year of sending out 10-20 resumes a week and taking interviews. Finally two weeks ago I got hired as a Network Engineer for 65K with no experience other than tech support sh*t. If you try hard enough and don't give up it will happen.

kalejaiye

2002-06-06, 6:40 pm

Ur observation and experiences may be correct.

If u persist in searching for a better one, it is very certain that one will surely come ur way. Keep moving and keep searching.

Sea Dragon

2002-06-07, 8:00 am

It was not long ago, Greenspan said ?the recession is over? by definition that is two consecutive quarters with growth. Wasn?t it Greenspan who started this eco-crash two years ago, which lead to the dot bombs?
He had to drop the interest rates 7, or was it 11 times to attempt to correct the rate hike in the rates 2 years ago. The stock market still maintains a down angle.

Cooking books ?, Enron got caught but many have been and continue to cook the books, Author Anderson is not the law, they do what they are told, and so it is, with ALL independent auditors- they cook books. Compaq and Hewlett are merging, there goes 15,000 more people looking for jobs, and Capitalism is a freak without a leash. El Paso Gas took 2 torpedo?s and is listing 20 degrees. Be on the look out, for the company you work for, it will, or may have already taken a torpedo, and your company just may take a seat next to Enron and countless others on the bottom of the corporate ocean. Where will this leave you, sending 10 resumes a week for a year?

Flesh peddlers, this seems like the green acres, of high paying jobs at this time. Companies would rather pay 7k a month through an agency to get qualified IT guys.

Think about this, I know you have seen or heard the commercials about ? get your Cisco CCXX and MSCE at ITT?, or any name IT specialty school. These schools will get their money and yes these people who graduate will be unemployed or working for way less than what was projected. Don?t get me wrong, many will find jobs but I will leave it at that. There is a flood coming and the supply and demand equation applies. The profit motives without genuine servitude toward its society and its citizenry is truly dead.

You may have seen the adds at Dice and the like, ?WANTED CCIE for 3 - 6 month contract? The Engineering field went through this same mess in the 80?s, you know the 3-6 month contracts then, boom, unemployed for 6 months. Is this the future of the IT industry?

I see some future in IT, and that has to do with weakness in government, they need to have their systems revamped from A-Z. County by county across this nation, there is a need for people like all of us on this forum. Soon there will be a courthouse at every corner, just like stop and go?s, because of the ?no tolerance? of any human imperfections what so ever, which has the court rooms filled to the brim 24 ?7. Example, here in Houston, we were forced to drop the speed limit from 70 to 55. Houston Police department has written 75,000 tickets in a month. Can you say cha ching. I think I would like to work a company with the deepest pockets and have in house, all-inclusive, book cookers, which no outside entity can audit. And this would be any branch of government, from a large homeowners association to the Federal Government. Better yet, become a layer, that is if you have a big enough dorsal fin.

What is a test taker, and why is it frowned upon. Is it not true, one has to read and learn the book to pass the test. This is a measuring stick of knowledge, right?

How many CCNP?s are there and what is the forcast for the next 5 years, or will much of networking become automated and it will not matter

As for me, I agree with frank300zx to some degree, hot dogs, get your hotdogs here *S*

sean34

2002-06-07, 2:36 pm

Sea Dragon,

interesting read,

you have brought up some good concerns with the IT world...

I too have noticed all the contract positions that want you for a project and your out the door. Im looking for a career here not some 6-month gig!

anyway, thanks for your insight...

peace

Sean34

mcoates

2002-06-07, 8:28 pm

Dont get all disenchanted with the dot.bomb phenomenom.

You were happy to ride the wave and made far more money than realistically you should have...and now its tight out there...what goes around comes around.

We all knew that the crash would happen. I happen to have a Commerce degree so analysis of business environments made it so obvious of what was to come.

Take Amazon...millions of dollars invested (speculation) was pumped into the company, when it had barely cut a profit in 3+ years operation. In any other share market, this happens less than America's. Why? The fact is that there is simply too much cash floating about for "investment". This causes a false market effect.

When things are good...everyone loves the sharemarket where promises of inflated riches beckon, but come the first signs of recession, out comes the money, plunging share prices and into the banks and property it goes.

The whole IT scene was built around a flimsy premise that the businesses were sustainable.

You only had to see companies with no profits worth half a billion dollars, lack of accounting standards, and no business plans. Bear in mind 3/4 of all businesses fail within 5 years of startup.

Another question, a programmer who lists his business for 250 million...do you really think he has skills and knowledge to manage it commercially? Probably not...yet you were happy to work in these companies and blindly ignore the realistic consequences.

Well good on you for earning the big bucks, and yes it is hard when youre out of work...but now youre in the second half of the business cycle...and it'll probably be longer than the first half...

Sea Dragon

2002-06-07, 8:54 pm

I truly fill sorry for those have to go through the time of studying to become the best they one can be, then met such needless hardships. Take comblues, my heart goes out to him and for those who live in California, where land cost millions, but the house only cost 50k I feel for them to, there is a wave of newbies coming. California is the Mecca of over night success and unfortunately, overnight poverty. One has to live 50 miles away from a city just to afford a slow sinking process, that should tell you much about the profit motive, just read Atlas Shrugs

The contract labor stuff, needs to be addressed, or in time, the IT industry will need to have IT Unions to protect the work force. That will create problems too, Corporate America will just go to another country and hire cheaper techies a.k.a. WAN / OS /Application help desk. The evolution of industry is inevitable, and predictable, history does repeat itself. Welcome to the World Wide Web, and get your chopsticks out of my serial port.

H1-Bs, I saw the displacement of the indigenous professional work force of our land in the 80?s, write your congressmen but do not expect an answer much less action. Start your own business, and pay the taxman before and after the company bellies up, and then pay the taxman again, 80% of new business fail. If you can?t beat them, join them. One thing for sure, I will not go down with out a fight, just like the rest of you, I will walk fearlessly into the night, with much coffee at my side not to mention the books, routers, switches and software that I possess. I am armed and ready for the unseen and the foggy future.

Sea Dragon

2002-06-07, 9:12 pm

I say give private enterprise, the chance to climb or fall in absolute terms, but I disagree with an appointed (not elected) representative, manipulating free enterprise. Who knows, over time, there might have been 500 companies (Mega Bill Gate type companies) who would have come out of the illusionary stock market cloud, employing hundreds of thousands. Everything in this realm (IT) is in its infancy, maybe you are right Michael, and we needed a spanking.

wirechild

2002-06-08, 12:59 am

I would like to offer this to you my friend. A lot of us that are without work were around in the IT field long before the dot.coms came around. I can very well remember sitting in meeting with Execs and explaining what Microsoft is and what the Interent is and watching the weird looks as if I was crazy and then after it started booming and took of I sit in those same meeting trying to convince the execs why the dot.coms would be soon dot bombs and getting those same looks again. The look of disbelief! I am mostly out of a job do to a bunch of thiefs that stole from the company that I have worked at for 8 years in the sum of $4B dollars give or take a little.

I think problems with companies like Enron and my former employer, had as much to do with the problems in the IT community as did the bad investments into the dot.com's.

chodan

2002-06-08, 1:00 am

You can`t really blame Greenspan for the dot bomb.
It was inevitable "in retrospect

"
I know you guys feel rough to make "only" 65K a year but I can`t wait for the day when I come close to that mark.
I have to say things are somewhat on the upswing in KY.
I guess those companies figure why pay some cali tech 100 grand when they can pay a KY tech 50.
One difference though is you can live well here "even with a mortgage and car payments" on 20 to 30 K a year, + no noise, smog or high crime.

mcoates

2002-06-08, 1:08 am

so what was the company where 4 billion was stolen from?

Are you sure you just aren't choosing to ignore the fact that many companies would have crashed irrespective of their mgmt?

Perhaps the difference between good and bad mgmt was simply the time it took for the dot.coms to go down the plughole....in which case dying fast better reallocates resouces into the market...?

wirechild

2002-06-08, 1:22 am

I sorta agree to what your saying except I worked for a company that has been around for some form or fashion for 50 years!

Hopefully your right on the last part, by the way I never made more then 50K/year and I would be happy with 35K - 40K now, but just don't see it and I know a few people in my area who recntly took 20 - 30% paycuts to keep all their jobs and they work for a Hospital.

wirechild

2002-06-08, 1:26 am

quote:
Originally posted by chodan
You can`t really blame Greenspan for the dot bomb.
It was inevitable "in retrospect"
I know you guys feel rough to make "only" 65K a year but I can`t wait for the day when I come close to that mark.
I have to say things are somewhat on the upswing in KY.
I guess those companies figure why pay some cali tech 100 grand when they can pay a KY tech 50.
One difference though is you can live well here "even with a mortgage and car payments" on 20 to 30 K a year, + no noise, smog or high crime.

I would be happy to move to KY for 40K a year, but I really don't see much listed for there.

I have about 140 local newspapers that I search every other day and about 70 other job sites that I search and I see at most 4 or 5 new jobs posted daily nation wide this is 20 - 30 a week and about 200,000 people trying to get these jobs. It just doesn't add up.

mcoates

2002-06-08, 1:29 am

One of the first things in a boom to go out the window is perspective...

In reality there was no American nationwide dot.com boom...just an anomaly on the east and west coastal regions...and a few other regions...

50k is still a good salary i'll bet and probably 90% of America would love to be earning that much...

the dot.com bust is simply a market self regulation.

Now everyone is seeing what the real "demand" for IT people is...

chodan

2002-06-08, 9:38 am

Plus many people are paying the price of floating from company to company every 6 to 12 months demanding more money each time.
Not a bad short term plan but in a job market like this employers want to see some stability in employees.
Thats just my opinion though.
As for news papers my gues is your looking in metropolitain news papers, you won`t find rural jobs listed in metro news papers.
One thing you can try is many of the telco`s like AT&T have a job mailer that comes to your email when a position opens that matches the criteria you set up.
Also there are some openings in Verizon in our area "which is soon to be altell" due to the buyout many long term employees are buying there retirement packages and leaving early in order to not lose some of there retirement packages to altell. Most of the positions are Customer Engineer and technician positions.

Sea Dragon

2002-06-08, 10:20 am

The top regions for Cisco jobs are

1. Silicone Valley - 121 job listings
2. New York - 81
3. Washington DC - 48
4. Chicago - 40
5. Virginia (Richmond ) - 32

I think Houston, Dallas and Austin combined had 30 jobs

There has to be jobs under the radar and I firmly believe government (Virginia and DC) is on the hunt for Cisco personal. Any Opionions?

comblues

2002-06-09, 9:45 am

I do not lament over the state of the market.

It is a mere observation.

I am the guy who has had many opportunities to be permanent at many very good companies.

That is not the problem here.

The problems occur when one becomes acquainted to the 100k lifestyle (me and the wife) and then have to figure out how to survive on 55-75k.

That's the reality.

I consolidated bills, refinanced vehicles, applied for unemployment (yep), got rid of every possible luxury in order to bring my cost of living down to the point that I can afford to take a 38k-45k job.

I am planning to stay at the next job at least 1-2 years at least.

So if you here me on a Telco's helpdesk that's why...

Now if you are getting started, I'd say find a place where you are comfortable salary wise and lifestyle-wise and bank the rest.

Do not become accustomed to having every new toy, gadget, luxury apartments and late model vehicles.

It's hard when for 2-3 years you've been making the bucks but reality is ultimately reality.

It's not that bad. I have a few cushions - Thanfully.

Did have to cancel on closing on my house.

But life goes on.

Interview on Monday.

signed up for some state-sponsored re-education programs.

Hey scholarships for 2-years of college and they have programs that pay for MCDBA/MCSE/CCNA/CCNP/OCDBA/CIW and even Jave Certs.

(The field is getting crowded quickly)

They are pumping some 30-50 people a day into IT in my town alone on these programs.

Maybe they have been doing it for quite a while (since 9/11 at least).

I guess that is the real reason.

Somehow an MCSE used to be a high-level certification and now it is only good for 18-25k on a help desk.

Go figure...

I guess it is our fault for not mainitaining the quality and dignity of the cert.

If all one has to do is study for 4 hours to pass a test, then naturally it becomes worthless.

I know some actually go to schools and some buy their labs and make things happen and can even tell you why.

Those of us who can set up a fully functional network complete with SQL-based Server Applications, Exchange Servers, Firewalls, Routers and Switches, perform structured cabling, and fully document the thing in 1-4 weeks and then ask if they want fries with that are clouded by those who cannot.

And how many of the newbies can perform network analysis or network monitoring via SNMP or have even heard of RMON?

Makes it hard on the hiring manager.

Yep. One of two things will happen these people will either get fired or get experienced by fire...

My bet is experience by fire...

They'll get better. But the salaries will decrease -> Simple Supply and demand.

Gone are the days of setting up a network for 3-10 people and charging 1000.00 per day.

Hard to do when a newbie says will do it for 300.00 a week. After all he has his MCSE and A+ certification that he just finished studying and passing the exam two or three weeks ago.

And what's more he might have passed both sets in as little as 2-9 days.

Yep.

He's the equal to a 8-15 year vet who can touch a computer and know what is wrong and how to fix it.

But that is what happens when we are reduced to commodities.

So while my credential may suggest 90k and the last 8 years of my civilian life have been dedicated to I.T. and networking.

I am happy to accept a 38-45k job and feel lucky to get a local one.

Sorry -> I have called and visited 1st hand nearly every company offering a job in the last 6-7 weeks in my town.

They have some 200-500 resumes to pick from.

Now if you are the beseiged HR person are you going to look through 200-500 resumes or simply pick the first 10-12 that catch your eye and appear to meet the requirements.

That is correct.

Why bother...

So it is simply the luck of the draw...

cahillrobert

2002-06-09, 9:48 pm

Six months ago I got laid-off. Based on this thread nothing new here.

Wait I was told was that the network infrastructure and management systems I designed and implemented were now remotely supportable. We don't need you now.

I always thought that if you did a good job for the 6000 clients you would get a reward, a pat on the back, not a knife in the gut.

To make it worse the guys who did little to nothing are still pulling in their 65-75K.

During the past few months sitting on my duff I cmpleted the MCSA, and 3/4 of the CCNP (without braindumps, Transcenders, et al.)

Starting to get calls! However there are others out there that are brushing up on their certs also. Maybe I should just say "@!#$" it and do it the easy way.

Sitting on one's butt this long is hurting on one's pride.

Sea Dragon

2002-06-10, 12:38 am

Cahillrobert

Sorry to hear this, I don't know what to say. I would like to say, go out there and knock on doors, and maybe that would land a job, for now. How about 5 years from now though. You see, I think there is going to continue to be an increase in demand only to exceeded buy supply. Just like in Engineering, companies will hire younger and cheaper people. Different automated Technologies (application developers) are going to hurt in the industry, I do not know how much though. I started out in my quest and bought the equipment (lab), moving toward a pilot network, with traffic and have my NP soon. I am not to sure if this will help me though. I wonder how over seas will be, the projected future for the next 10 years, I see growth, it can only go one way, and that is up.

Any more stories like cahillrobert ?

chodan

2002-06-10, 6:41 am

comblues makes several good points about fiscal responsibility.
Even if you have the 6 figure job don`t act as if its written in stone.
Heck if I made that much and did not change my lifestyle "which ain`t bad" I could save 60 grand a year.
Not that I would but I could.
I have a new boss coming in he just got hire as "Director of Telecomunications" he was making 6 figures at his old job but they were closing operations in his area and told him he could move to Detroit and make even a little more, he started looking and found the job with us making much less but he fell in love with the area "heck he was boating down here every weekend on lake cumberland".
He is not exactly happy about making less money but I think he`s happy to raise his young daughter here instead of in a large city.
Moral: there is more to life than money I suppose.
And as I said you can live well down here with much less.
I used to be dismayed by how much other areas in the US paid till I looked at the cost of living.
Heck just property costs.
How much does a decent 1 acre lot cost where you guys are??

comblues

2002-06-10, 12:36 pm

I, myself, have re-structured my debt. Made it possible for to live on a 30k+ cut and be happy.

I've even come to accept that unless one of the out-of-state opportunities becomes a reality that I will be re-inventing my skills locally.

My NT is out of date. I need to get Metaframe XP for my Citrix. May be a good time to get certified with Novell (back in the day we believed them all to be just "paper". Get some of my Lucent and 3Com qualifications completed.

And of course, finish the CCIE and a BSIT (need about 3 classes).

So this is a time to also re-evaluate what I am trying to get out of my career (money or just being happy working with good people and new technologies).

And of course, spend more time with family, even get back to the gym.

Whew!

Just a few positive things...

Got caught up in the rat-race, time to get back on track for what I got into the field for in the first place...

Ciao

limsam

2002-06-10, 8:03 pm

I accept the view of the original poster.

But, times will change. Now IT got over supply of talents. Certainly, this will nto be the case always.

heinzlee88

2002-06-10, 11:03 pm

Interesting live articles posted and food for thoughts thought though it painted a rather negative scenario for the IT industry.

I remembered back then from 94 to 97 in China, one of my regular vendor and I had an interesting discussion on the various careers path. The core gist is IT is a poor man job relative to others. Of course I disagree back then reflecting upon myself and those I knew. There might be fundamental truth in his statement.

It might not help, but Worry is only worry when you worry over your worry. As said, every cloud had a silver lining. Let's view it as currently stormy weather for the IT industry. Believe there shall come a day when those "toothless tigers" were be withered out or burned by fire as and the supply reduced to those who are truly interested in IT. Then demands pick up and the sunny weather is back. Of course, the cycle shall repeat itself again, SIGH.

It was fortunate that I did not invest much money except for the books out of own pocket and the core investment is mainly my leisure time. Well, I did all those certifications out of interest and not looking forward to anything nor did I expect anything in return. Hence there shall be no room for disappointment other than self satisfaction upon each attainment. Getting a job out there depends really on luck, luck and luck on arm length dealing. Your networking (need to be someone relatively senior) helps of course, but then this situation is recommendation. As for others, experiences, qualifications, certifications etc. is questionable, my own thought based on my personal experiences and observations. Simple rule, how to expect IT manager (those who have not even participate in any implementation, those who knows IT superfically by acronyms only) to sniff out true guru from let say 100 applicants much less if it is done by HR.

I shall end my note here and wish all of you out there success in your endeavors.

limsam

2002-06-10, 11:15 pm

It was fortunate that I did not invest much money except for the books out of own pocket and the core investment is mainly my leisure time

I also followed the same. I paid for my books and the exams only. (I am a book lover).

Nowadays I tend to buy vendor neutral books and open source books.

Well, I am also optimistic and I regret nothing. Even I gave up a career in Electical/Electronic Engineering though it was my degree. Now, I know my salary will be higher if I had started as an electonic engineer. But no worry. I like the job I do, although my salary is not upto the standard.

micmonmel

2002-06-11, 6:40 am

Reading this forum was a real eye opener for me. Thanks to all who have posted their message. I was talked into taking the CNAP classes thru my local community college. With promises of big money. I've taken the first four semesters and the CCNA (failed the CCNA, passed the semesters with flying colors). But I wasn't sure this is what I wanted to do. I enjoy knowing some of the information I have learned in the IT field. But you all have strengthened my decision not to continue in this line. Maybe I'll go back to my original line of study.... Or maybe I'll learn to cook hot dogs... Thanks again.

moeman

2002-06-11, 8:37 am

I call dibs on the vegitarian hot dog stand. After all we need to have variety. Otherwise the hot dog stands will end up like we all are now.

All computer and network problems can be fixed with two things:
1.) A good warranty
2.) A rubber mallet

micmonmel

2002-06-11, 9:33 am

let me know where you are at when you open the stand....

Sea Dragon

2002-06-11, 10:53 am

ITT Educational Services, Inc. Jobs084
5975 Castle Creek Pkwy, North Dr Tel: none
Indianapolis, IN 46250 Fax:
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POSITION TITLE : CNS Instructor
SKILLS REQUIREMENTS: GUI, NT, TCP/IP, LINUX, LAN/WAN

LOCATION : PA 717 Mechanicsburg
PAY RATE : Commensurate with experience
Fulltime
LENGTH : FTE
POSITION ID: ittiirc.084ed08.dice

EMAIL: Jobs084@itt-tech.edu

WEB: http://www.ittesi.com

COMMENTS: Looking for a position that will give you the opportunity to enhance the lives of others? We truly believe that the future of our nation's workforce is being developed right here and are looking for people who would like to be part of the team building this future.
At ITT Technical Institute, we're preparing our students for opportunities with the nation's top companies - in some of the hottest technical fields. If you have the ability to effectively present materials in a student-centered environment with a minimum of three years of experience in systems administration, network architecture, GUI, NT, TCP/IP, LINUX, LAN/WAN, or Novell and a bachelor’s degree, we would like to hear from you. An MCSE, MCP, CNE, CCNA, CCNP, and/or CNA is desirable. Instructor classi
fications range from adjunct (part time) to full time positions, so there are a variety of schedules to fit your life.
ITT Educational Services, Inc. is a leading provider of technology-oriented postsecondary degree programs. At the end of 2001, ESI operated 70 ITT Technical Institutes in 28 states. The institutes predominately offer career-focused degree programs of student to approximately 31,000 students. Most programs of study at the ITT Technical Institutes blend traditional academic content with applied learning concepts. Advisory committees, comprised of representatives of local businesses and employers, help ea
ch ITT Technical Institute periodically assess and update curricula, equipment and laboratory design.
According to U.S. Department of Education data, the ITT Technical Institutes in total granted the largest percentage (15.2 percent) of associate's through bachelor's degrees awarded in the U.S. in electronics and electronics-related programs in the 1999-2000 school year, the latest year for which statistics are available. The ITT Technical Institutes in total also awarded the largest share (24.2 percent) of associate's through bachelor's degrees awarded in the U.S. during the same school year.
For more detailed information about ITT Technical Institutes and curricula offered, please visit our website at www.itttech.edu
Headquartered in Indianapolis, Indiana, ESI has been actively involved in the higher education community in the United States since 1969. The company's common stock is traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol "ESI." Our corporate website is found at www.ittesi.com
ITT Technical Institute, a national leader in post-secondary education has
multiple full-time and adjunct positions opening in June 2002., Positions are for daytime and evening hours. We are particularly interested in professionals with experience in web site design, 3D modeling, and audio
visual techniques, C++, NetWare (Novell), Linux, Web Server administration, NT 4 and Microsoft 2000 operating systems, WAN technology and Cisco routers, and database development.
Candidates MUST have a Baccalaureate degree to be considered. FAX or e-mail
resume to:
Thomas Hart
Dean, Academic Affairs
FAX (717) 691-9273
E-mail:Jobs084@itt-tech.edu
For immediate consideration, please send your resume to Jobs084@itt-tech.edu.

Sea Dragon

2002-06-11, 12:06 pm

You forgot thermo dynamics, but you may give a break to those who have endeavored to take on the challenge of Cisco. First, in college, the networking course I took was a joke, they taught a shadow of reality, an open standard. Now SMU has jumped on the bandwagon and offers Cisco classes, but just because you pass in college class with the curves, does not mean you will pass the Cisco test.

I am glad they made the test a bit harder, for me I learned by trial and error, now I am working on a pilot network (lab), this I would advise to all seeking networking. This still does not solve the supply and demand equation, just like many careers in college, they do not tell you the truth about corporate America, including H1-B flooding and how this would effect their career choice, yet, they will take your 40k.

The fact is a well-rounded education is important, go for it and tears it up. Make your choice wisely, and do the research.

As for money and jobs, it may be who you know and to some degree what you know. You need to find channels of where money flows.

good luck in your quest
ciao

frank300zx

2002-06-11, 1:45 pm

Sea Dragon,

I agree with most of what you said. As an IT manager, most folks don't realized how much private companies are screwing local pool of candidates with H1B visa's. This has to stop!! We do need unions to take care of high tech folks. Companies are only thinking short term to maximize profits. They pay 5K to INS to make these guys legal and then offer them 60K to be their new CCIE while the local guy is getting the shaft!! if you look at every industry (medical, law or you name it), you can't just come over here and work. They all require you to re certify yourself. This is just not fair. Also 65K may be a lot for some folks, but in bayarea CA (silicon valley) where you pay $1500 for one bedroom its one step away from poverty line, and yes I wouldn't mind working in Kentucky if there is any work, but unfortunately I have no other skills but high tech so I moved to the Mecca!!! Bottom line, high tech folks are screwed, and this is just the beginning, economy will get lot worse since there are tons of Enron's that are yet to be discovered. Get a job with Defense contractor or sign up with FBI, because this President has no plans but to enrich his buddies with more oil contracts in Afghanistan and other areas!! For those of you in houston, get a job with Carlisle group. Its run by George Bush Sr, Bin Ladin Family (except Osama), and James Baker. I am sure soon they will have lots of openings..Seriously!!

Sea Dragon

2002-06-11, 2:26 pm

frank300zx

I am glad that you put the puzzle together, hope this echoes through out this board. I do not want to see the exploitation of the people of our land, or any other land. We must first take care of our house then lead (if they want to be led) the way for others. You truly get it, hopefully others find it.

Unions started out with good intentions in the 20's, they became corrupt later, and now seem to have a balance but I could be wrong. We have to do some thing, and I close with, the profit motive with servitude to its citizenry, is truly dead. I will take your advice about government work or the Carlisle group (never heard of them) hmmmm
Thanks for your help

Ciao
chuckster

MadChef

2002-06-11, 2:54 pm

While snoop may have be a little more harsh than me, I generally agree with what he has to say. The written was a joke and I didn't work half as hard for the lab as I did for any 200 level or above class in school. My company has to maintain certified individuals to meet the demands of the vendors and some of the customers still love certified people. But everyone knows enough people who have the certification with no backing to generally discount certs as a validation of someone's knowledge.

Madchef

michele38

2002-06-13, 7:25 am

To Wirechild:

I have to reply to something you said in you post about the job fair. I realize things are tough in the IT field, but speaking from the point of view as a medical worker what you heard about nursing and $40 an hour is definately inflated!!! I have been a Registered Respiratory Therapist for 20 years. I have always worked closely with many Registered Nurses. They do not make $40 per hour. Only the most top level management jobs would come close to that. Their pay range is similar to mine and and that of a Physical Therapist. Plus you have the added responsibility of knowing that a mistake in your job could kill someone, where your mistake could bring down the network. Many people unhappy with you, but no one dead.

Only my 2 cents worth.... I am still going to work on the MCSE 2K and see what happens.

cahillrobert

2002-06-13, 12:58 pm

The good and bad.
My former job was as a Respiratory Therapist 15 years ago, my wife is still an ICU RN.

Both of us earn within $5 / hr of each other. Mine is higher and salaried, she has the opportunity of overtime. Generally, each year our income is rather equal.

I got laid off, she is working and with the nursing shortage there is no problem for her getting hours.

My first year, of fifteen years, in IT was accepting the fact that project planning was an ongoing fact. As a clinician, I was use to only planning to get my patients as well as I could until the next shift came in. When I left for the day there was no on-call, beepers or work problems to concern me.

Now I needed to plan this week, month, quarter and year in advance. Project plans & budget were new and a hassle. Leaving work is not necessarlity leaving it behind.

Michele is definitely correct when we screw up the network nobody dies. But this is definetly screwed up because when a circuit goes down the IS department certainly hears about it from the hospital administration. I never remember an administrator coming down to the ICU to berate the staff for loosing something more precious then a damn switch.

To be honest I denitely like the suit coat versus the lab coat. I personally never want to return to clinical medicine as much as I liked the staff members and patients.

Michele some of the nursing wages in my area are $30-35/hr. Even heard of $37 for a 12 to 13 hour day.

Tulcingo

2002-06-14, 2:43 am

Well guys believe it or not I also got layed off from my company due to many changes that are happening, like I had mentioned before my company was an integrator and they started to lose accounts left and right. My boss decided to let go a few people and I guess they decided to stay with a guy who was making 25k. What I did right after I got the boot was to go to mexico and think over what my next move was going to be. I just came back from mexico a few days ago and have found 0 jobs. I have looked jobs with fellow IT recruiters here and have not found nothing. I really don't care how much company's are paying as long as I don't end up doing something like selling hot dogs in stands like it was mentioned before but the way things are going here in ny is pretty hard. I couldn't believe it when I got called into the room when I was told I no longer work for the company and to think that before back in the days company's used to call for me and tell me if I wanted to work for them and now they are the one's who are rejecting me

The only thing I am happy about is that I atleast took advantage of taking training in different platforms and got out without paying a penny. I do hope I find something soon because I am starting to get frustrated with this sh**.. I also had a chance to go take the CCIE lab but since the company was going to pay it... they cancelled it.. damn jerks!!! I know I could of passed it.... but any way I have to start from scratch again.. back to break and fix

beenframed

2002-06-14, 3:23 pm

I know the job market is looking grim and has been for sometime. On top of that you look around and you see tech schools pumping out rookies with network specialists certificates by the 100's. The MCSE's value has dropped to pretty much nothing, you can probably make more working in Mcdonald's. Cisco is a flooded area as well, not sure if all the people with Cisco on their resume are realy qualified but they got the cert so who knows. So many kids coming out of those tech schools and none of them can find jobs. I know 3 personally and not one has found a job. They spend 3-4 months looking after tech school and then start to give up and go back to doing whatever it was they were doing before tech-school (airport luggage, restaurant worker and deli worker) Some may find 18-25k entry level jobs but most will not and they will abandon ship and try something else after a few months of looking. Once it happens to enough people word will get out and people will stop attending those schools at that rate they are today and that should help the job market pick up a bit, unfortunalty who knows how long that will take.

Anyways, I am a Network Manager but am considering jumping ship to get into a VOIP position. I think VOIP is going to get bigger and bigger and when it really starts hitting the fans there will be a lot of job opportunites (at least for a few years). then it will be something else. My take on the market is that VOIP is going to be one of the most in demand IT skills in the next 3-5 years.

PS: Does any one have any links to the Gov't visa policies, i'm curious to see just how many IT workers they accept every year. We should start a petition to cut down that number and/or eliminate it.

-bf

Sea Dragon

2002-06-18, 1:14 pm

sorry to hear the bad news. Two more of my friends lost their jobs, one desk top support the other in fiber optics. I also heard from a friend that a girl was released from her job, she was sitting next to him when this took place, scary.

best to all
chuck

comblues

2002-06-18, 6:15 pm

Lately the only return calls I've been getting are out of state for VoIP/AVVID deployments that pay 100k +

or the flip sideis that I picked up an application to work at 7-11 figuring it may pay better than unemployment till something happens.

Lots of jobs for Call Center People...

What a Career - Get's ya up into nearly the 6 figure range then - WHAM!

And I'm practicing saying:

Do you want fries with that?

Now, I'm no newbie and I've got the certs at the highest level and the skills to go with em'

But it looks like I'll be going to work at -11 and Wendy's to finance my ad campaign to become get some consultant business again...

That's about wha it has resulted to...

Good New I charge $125.00 per hour to small-medium networks to do the same things I do for larger networks... for 60-80k

What I life...

Maybe it is for the better...

Funds are starting to drain...

Still got 5 possibilities out of state, waiting on a couple of resumes in-state and a few projects here and there...

I am becoming well-versed in the AVVID Arcitecture, though...

Imagine getting a job at Mickey D's and as a FRY-Boy and then setting up an International AVVID Solution for them and all for minimum wage pay...

Go figure...

Such is life...

I do have my "Will route for food" sign ready...

yanoaaa

2002-06-20, 7:30 am

Actually the benifits at McD's are pretty good.

Left the military a while back and jumped into the real world. My biggest mistake was pannicking and taking a job to cover my benifits.

Most people who are unemployeed can get medical costs at a reduced rate for a while. and if you are collecting unemployment you can survive.

Check you major health care web sites to find out. COBRA is the program.

I never went on unemployment, but took a job at a local lumber company. Pretty big mistake. Good to work, but I wish I could have had that time back to finish up some certs. Plus don't overlook some time to relax ( if that's possible)

I'm convinced that things will turn, but not as soon as we would like.

By the way the outlook for IT in Pittsburgh. We have about 4 entries in this weekend's paper. All for programmers with AIX experience. Jump on monster.com and user to keywords CCNP. CCNA MSCE etc in your resume. Possible contract work will contact you ( typically head hunters)

Good luck

comblues

2002-06-20, 1:24 pm

Just left my credit union:

I can defer my two car payments for up to 90 days with penalty. (Lifetime of each loan).

Done.

Student Loan can be deferred.

I/P - Will be done today.

I'm checking the credit cards that are in my name to get them deferred.

There are training programs in my state that are I'm eligible for:

Including up to 2 years college "scholarship"

or free MCSE training + Exams

or CCNP training + exams.

I already have the CCNP.

I thought the upgrade to MCSE2K + Exams sounded nice or better yet finish my bachelor's degree while in transit. - I lack three courses.

Whew!

Gotta give up the $1500.00 apartment though!

So I'm going now to ask about my options with them...

And I only have 1 credit card and 1 account with a computer vendor.

So maybe they can either defer or not charge interest during this period of unemployment.

Maybe it's not that bad, for me it's been only three weeks.

But I've ran into others who have been on the sidelines for better than 6-8 months.

Can't take chances.

Meanwhile I've signed up to be a free agent with many of the usual suspects...

I'm still very skilled technically. Freelance is not so bad and I've done it before...

Pays the bills.

Better than U/C anyway.

Take advantage of the programs if I'm deemed eligible.

Otherwise knockin' on doors and making phone calls...

Hi, it's me can I fix your PC, fix your network, connect your router, program your phones, make your office wireless, wire your office/house, switch your phone carrier and save you some bucks...

Or just build and sell custom PCs.

Life always offers challenges...

It is up to us how we meet them...

cahillrobert

2002-06-20, 1:35 pm

Still looking...
With all of the experience and knowledge that I took with me I sat for the first 4 MCP exams now have an MCSA. Nobody gave a damn. As I was taking the 70-218 got two WAN / LAN interviews, have all of the experience, same equipment and same industry, no CCNP. DAMN, DAMN, DAMN. Stopped the MCP exams nobody cared anyway. Completed the CCNP exams in 6 weeks.

Now in the past several weeks some interviews.

cciewannabe

2002-06-21, 12:51 pm

ive been optimistic up till this point. but seeing the stock market crash and all of the resounding horror stories im beginning to wonder. im still going to follow through to my CCIE and if things don't get better by then ill strongly consider saving up for a while and then going to law school to become a patent attorney (intellectual properties). my brother is a patent attorney and he makes 200k yr, 300k a few years ago with some bonuses he got. he was an industrial engineer in undergrad and says that computer experts with patent law are in high demand. that would be pretty cool managing patents for Cisco. but 3 years on top of all the education i have already and another 40,000 in loans isnt appealing. my mcse was gold a few years ago and now its worthless, could use it for toilet paper. it appears that the tech market has been and will continue to be a very cyclical market. other industries aren't so cyclical and always have demand, ie patent attorneys. even in a depression big companies will still fund their R&D departments to get an edge on the competition which results in more patents. they'd be cutting themselves in the throat to cut the R&D budget. and given that computer technologies and the people who support them are now a commodity in surplus, and the life of routers in general(companies only upgrade as they grow) there is no future for us until companies grow again (very cyclical). i do feel though that once and hopefully sooner than later when the economy recovers there will be a backlog for companies that need new routers, servers and are looking to expand operations further (like the 90s) and when that happens they won't be able to suffice with rookie support and will regret getting rid of their CCIEs. and in order to implement sophisticated WANS for new offices and mergers they're going to need CCIEs and the demand will go way up, and the salary will be 6 figure again. just my take on things. i consulted for a company that cut 27% of IT and due to the negativity they lost people they didn't want to leave (loss of loyalty factor). as a result this company had to hire these people for $1,500/day because they were the only people that truely understood their complex network, in other words irreplacable. ive seen a lot of companies get themselves into trouble because some dick in the budget cutting department doesnt respect IT or what they do. once they grow, they'll need the experience they canned and will be hurting to find people who can build onto their discontiguous mess of computing platforms and non-standardization. ok im done, =) a bit long here, just venting i guess
cheers

cahillrobert

2002-06-21, 1:25 pm

Just yesterday my old job decided to convert from OSPF to EIGRP. With no design document!!!!

Received a couple of calls saying things aren't working why????

Told my old boss I can fix it for them here's my rate... Big Smile here.

Not working today either!! Bigger Smile.

BTW, I know why, two minute fix.. Greatest Smile of All.

Now I am not trying to be malevolent. They shouldn't have moved the damn job to Dallas.

cahillrobert

2002-06-21, 1:34 pm

Per cciewannabe
I have a MCSA was going to take the last two exams for MCSE. Most recruiters are saying oh ok, if you want it, but why.

Personally I hate doing things half way. But right now, being laid-off, I need the job. After completing the CCNP, the phone started to ring. Now I take a look at the CCIE and consider it the next step.

However I also note that a friend of mine acquired his R/S CCIE #7XXX recently now they are in the 9XXX. 1500 - 2000 new CCIEs in a very short time. Cisco is changing the R/S test I hope to make it more competitive. Hopefully more diversity will occur with the CCIE tracks that Cisco has created.

I am truly concerned the the PhD of IT will be the next MCSE paper.

chodan

2002-06-21, 2:03 pm

I was getting ready to gear up for the CCIE written, but the more I look at it the more I`m inclined to try security.
First a few classes then some lab time and
then CISSP then CCIE security to round it out seems to be a good one year plan.

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