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Home > Archive > Windows 2000 track general > January 2001 > W2K Dumps can hurt bad
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W2K Dumps can hurt bad
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| Microsoft is really serious about folks posting W2K dumps on websites or cheating on the exams.
Microsoft caught 7 website owners who were immediately decertified and are "permamently" ineligible for any Microsoft certification for posting W2K dumps on their websites. Hmmm. I guess there is always the Cisco certification route. Just be careful out there folks!
Read more about it here: http://www.microsoft.com/trainingandservices/default.asp?PageID=m cp&SubSite=examinfo/policies&PageCall=letter
~TheKernel
[This message has been edited by TheKernel (edited 07-24-2000).] | |
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| I had seen enough posts all over the net with the link to this "letter to MCPs"
Let's stop for a moment and think about it.
Let's try to beak down this story look at details. What we have here is the case of Gross mishandling of the situation by Microsoft.
Here is why. The problem was people posting braindumps in violation of the NDA.
First of all, I have a copy of the old NDA that people had to sign before taking MCSE exams. Nowhere in that document is mentioning the possibility of losing your certification for running a braindump site.
No, no I am not defending braindump sites in any way no do I defend braindumpers.
But here is the deal. Let's look at what Microsoft has achieved.
The last time I've checked all braindump sites are still online.
By decertifying owners of braindump sites Microsoft lost their trump card. Now they have very little influence over operators of braindump site. Hey, now that people has been decertified, they have less to worry about.
What should have been done is a strong warning to braindump sites with the demand to close their sites or lose the certification. I have a feeling that people would have complied.
Instead Microsoft decided to just revoke certification of those individuals that run braindump sites.
Now think about the number 7. This is how many owners of braindump sites have been decertified. What about the other 700 or 7000 people who actually violated the NDA by submitting those braindumps? They are just as much responsible for it.
What has been achieved by this? Apparently not much. A lot of noise, an article on Microsoft web site, and not much more.
Braindump sites are still online, people are still using them, people are still submitting braindumps using aliases.
By decertifying those braindump sites operators Microsoft has shot itself it the foot.
And the last but not least point is that what if some of those websites are owned by non-MCPs? They don't give a **** about all this.
Microsoft should have handled this situation better. They chose the easiest way, not the best way.
I hope that after Microsoft is broken down into 3 companies, they will have smarter decision makers.
I know I have just opened the door to flood of comments.
I hope that you see that I am not defending braindumps. My point is that braindumps are serious problem and it should have been dealt with differently and not by just creating the smoke screen.
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Webmaster and founder of this site and of
<A HREF="http://www.cert21.com"" TARGET=_blank>Cert21.com</A>
MCSE+I, CNA, A+, N+, I-NET+
[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 07-25-2000).] | |
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| The best way for microsoft to get a handle on the Braindumping is to make the exams "Hands-on". That solves almost all the problems of unqualified people gettting certified and not being able to do the job.
The actions they took sounds like they were trying to make an example. It will change nothing in regards to braindumpers. It's as the Webmaster said. Web sites will be hosted by non MS certified people and ran from a foreign country. Posters can go through the "Anonymizer" to hide their IP's. So much for enforcement.
I have little sympathy for MS, for each applicant that fails the exam they get $100.00. It's a money making machine-- All they provide are a set of questions that can range from pertinent to retarded and obscure. An automated system that they benefit from when you fail! Just check the amount of MCP's already out there and do the math! Then add in all the folks that fail.
To deal with the unqualified folks getting jobs..Yes, that is a problem because it gives all of us a bad name when you walk in and can't do a simple LAN setup of NT.
My solution is to become better at what you do and tackle the tough exams, add extra expertise like..cisco, SQL. The bad eggs among us will get taken care of on their own.
Either they will learn or make fools out of themselves and get fired.
They take can take my certs if they want, I'll just push to have our company switch it's 800 computers from microsoft to Novell or Linux. Re-licensing for Win2k is so expensive anyway.
[This message has been edited by Hoooooo (edited 07-24-2000).] | |
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| Whoa. I didn't mean to open the floodgates on this one. This is the first I've heard of the "Revenge of Microsoft" controversy and thought I'd share it with those who haven't heard about it yet.
Webmaster and Hoooooo, you've made some interesting points that I didn't expect anyone to bring up in this discussion. I believe these "certs" are simply (money-enriched)icing on the I.T. cake which is a common goal for most of us to reach. However, the real "test" is out in the field. As Hoooooo said, "Either they will learn or make fools out of themselves and get fired."
Thanks for your inputs, gents!
~TheKernel
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| Wow, that is so true. That was my first thought on all the braindump hoo-ha. Now that they are all supposedly de-certified what the hell do they care about giving out MS's test answers...They don't!! Another thing, I see a reply here by "Hoooooo" is that the same guy who has braindumps all over the place???? quote:
Originally posted by Webmaster:
By decertifying those braindump sites operators Microsoft has shot itself it the foot.
And the last but not least point is that what if some of those websites are owned by non-MCPs? They don't give a **** about all this.
[This message has been edited by blackbelt33 (edited 09-01-2000).] | |
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| Good observation blackbelt. I was thinking the same thing.
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| This a great topic of discussion and I feel compelled to add to it. I'm sure everyone here would agree that braindumps don't help to shore up the image of MCSE's but what about a bigger and broader issue? Does Ms not know about the corruption is third word countries when it comes to getting certified? Does MS even care enough to try and put a stop to it? And what could they do to put a stop to it? Here's a nice little senario. Imagine if you would, some one walks into a test center in China or the Philipines and the testee pays the moderator a few bucks and has someone standing behind him giving him the answers. The reason is simple. The person knows that work visa's are plentiful for IT and programmers here in the states and that this is one way to get here. Does MS know about this? Sure they do but it is not in the corporate best interest of MS, Intel, Sun or any huge software giant to do anything about it because these paper types from overseas may not know a whole lot but they work real cheap. We know that moving to San Jose Calif for less than $125,000.00 would make no sense because of the commute and the cost of living there. But tell some guy in India that you'll pay him $40,000.00 a year to come to San Jose and he'll be on the first thing smokin' out of New Deli. You can't blame the guy. These guys can't get to the states unless they have something as far as certs and or education. Now the companies that use MS products needs to be assured that they can get these certified workers at the cut rate so there's lots of money at stake here. Both for MS and the company that saves a bundle with foreign workers.
Now, as a NT Server Support Tech for MS, I have the pleasure of working with these certified cut rate workers on a daily basis and I want to tell you, it is not always a pleasurable experience. What they try to do with software would stun any network tech with two years experience. Recruiters are having a field day with this and are bringing in as many as they can recruite. I've talked with some of these recruiters and and they tell some real funny stories about getting people from these test centers. They can even tell them what test center to go to and who to talk with. So I'm sure that MS would like to put a stop to braindump sites but not to the growing number of third world MCSE's.
[This message has been edited by Phantom309 (edited 09-06-2000).] | |
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| Although I agree with a lot of what has been said on the discussion about braindumps.However, I have to stress that there are a lot of people like myself out there who do not use the braindumps for certification, and it really ****s me off when people like hoooooo cries for tougher exams, just as he/she has used braindumps to pass the exams and got the job and training that they wanted. | |
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| Webmaster, how can you be so sure Microsoft DIDN'T first threaten the dump sites? If they had and are only now revoking certs. this would be what you suggested - I don't know jack here, just asking LOL Greets to blackbelt, looks like we are neighbors!
[This message has been edited by LeX (edited 09-07-2000).] | |
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| I would like to start off by saying that I run a braindump site. A buddy and I started it over a year ago, and around May he was decertified with no warning. He was also threatened with a lawsuit if he did not shut down the site. This all happened to him because we foolishly registered the domain in his name. Fortunately, he had already sold me the site months before, but the domain took forever to transfer which is why he bit the bullet. It is true that there was no such wording the NDA stating that someone could be decertified for running a braindump site. My ex-partner never submitted a braindump, and nor was he a "paper MCSE". He knows more about NT than most certified individuals, yet he can no longer get his certification. I agree with Hoooooo in the respect that MS is making a ton of money off of individuals who think they can pass the exams with simply memorizing the braindumps, and also that the exam questions are rather obscure. Many of MS' NT books did not fully cover the material, and technically anything like Transcenders that did is worse than braindumps because they are charging for them. It is also true that many employers are screening individuals they plan to hire to make sure they are knowledgable on the subject. It is very hard to pass with minimal effort and get a decent job because of it. Phantom309 also brings up a good point about corruption abroad, which MS doesn't seem to do much about. If there is a way to cheat, people will find it. Be this using braindumps, Transcenders, or other study aids that simply have the exam material covered in a short and concise form. Snipe, that is great that you don't use braindumps, more power to you. What do you use to pass the tests? The "correct" way to cheat by using study aids that are formed merely to cover the exam material? It is very easy to point the finger and make a scapegoat out of braindumps, but just realize that you are falling into the hands of the capitalists that are making money off of doing what I give people for free.
I don't necessarily disagree with what companies like Transcenders are doing, I like to know what materials are going to be on any college exams I take, and usually the teachers give you a sheet with what broad topics are covered. However, cheating is cheating, and anyone that that is anti-braindump had better do some serious studying and learn just about everything that MS says will be covered on the exam inside and out before they point the finger. It really amazes me how people follow the crowd that places like Cramsession set in pointing the finger at braindumps. Cramsession is nothing more than braindumps turned into a study guide. Check it out for yourself on any NT exam, you will see what I'm talking about. I personally went through 50 questions from 70-073 and was able to verify every single answer on Cramsession. Yet this is the main anti-braindump site. How can they so ruthlessly criticize something that they use for their own benefit?
Leif
[This message has been edited by Leif (edited 01-17-2001).] | |
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| I agree with you Leif. I actually have a Cisco ExamCram book that specifically tells one that one should cruise the net looking for braindumps! Although I think it a bad idea to when people use dumps to memorise questions and not understand the material adequately, thinking that they will get ahead this way, I also see precious little difference in most braindumps and "practice tests" like the ones on this site or in the software packages that come with nearly every study guide. Seems like if it's free it's bad, and if it isn't, it's good.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 01-18-2001).] | |
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| quote:
Originally posted by Randy:
I agree with you Leif. I actually have a Cisco ExamCram book that specifically tells one that one should cruise the net looking for braindumps
I can top you there Randy!
My instructors at the school I attend write the actual addresses on the boards for us to go view..they reccomend it!
I never paid attention to them until I failed my I-Net+ by one point and went off looking ....only to my dismay to find the actual questions from the exam. I can say 35 out of the 72 questions I purchased were VERBATUM to the exam. It sort of pissed me off.
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| I know what you mean. Even if the questions weren't actually 'verbatim' test questions, they need to ask very nearly the same thing or else they aren't of much use. I can only say that the real difference in a braindump and a practice test is not primarily what is on the test or dump, but what the student's motivation is . . . cheating or learning. persoanlly, I am not very good at memorising isolated facts, so I always find it a better approach to get the concepts down, then home in on the details. And as such, dumps/tests can be useful. How a dump is different from Transcender exams or the practice test here, I am not sure. But if there is a difference, it is surely quite a blurry one for me. And with the prices of the exams, I can sympathise with those who feel compelled to use them. | |
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| Yea, I have a buddy who took classes in college for his certification. His teacher highly encouraged the students to go to my site. I found this rather amusing. I do agree with you 100%, Randy, that memorizing the questions and answers is the wrong way to go. Not only will this most likely make you fail the exam (with the exception of Networking Essentials), but if you do manage to pass you'll be found out later by employers. However, as with anything, there is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things. People can buy cars and buy alcohol, and combining these two is obviously a poor choice, but people do it. People can also buy guns and misuse them as well. There are always going to be the bad eggs that abuse braindumps, but there are plenty of people who use them the proper way, which is to home in on what is covered on the exam after you've got a good idea of the material already. There are so many crazy things that the exams ask in their questions that aren't covered in books or that any administrator would ever need to know that such things as braindumps and Transcenders become necessary.
Leif
[This message has been edited by Leif (edited 01-19-2001).] | |
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| great tip...thanks for the input...i recently started a site http://www.getnewjob.com IT Site
and am considering putting braindumps on it
kinda makes me think a little first
quote:
Originally posted by TheKernel:
Microsoft is really serious about folks posting W2K dumps on websites or cheating on the exams.
Microsoft caught 7 website owners who were immediately decertified and are "permamently" ineligible for any Microsoft certification for posting W2K dumps on their websites. Hmmm. I guess there is always the Cisco certification route. Just be careful out there folks!
Read more about it here: http://www.microsoft.com/trainingandservices/default.asp?PageID=m cp&SubSite=examinfo/policies&PageCall=letter
~TheKernel
[This message has been edited by TheKernel (edited 07-24-2000).]
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