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| dougal 2004-06-11, 10:51 am |
| I saw a thread a while ago stating a router that was sold on was no longer subject ios upgrades from cisco. If this is the case how do you upgrade from older ios versions? | |
| forbesl 2004-06-11, 11:10 am |
| In order to be able to download IOS upgrades from Cisco, you must have a support contract (CCO account) for your piece of Cisco equipment. You can purchase Cisco IOS from CDW; however, I caution you to ensure that you have enough flash and NVRAM on your router to support the IOS before buying it and that you are buying the correct IOS for your router model.
!!!!! | |
| azimuth40 2004-06-11, 3:06 pm |
| Yes and then sticker shock sets in. $226 for 12.2 quite a bit more that old routers are selling for on ebay. Then people starts to realize that IOS is like buying a copy of windows desktop or server and they cringe when they realize that an old $75 2501 is really $500 to put into legal production use. | |
| forbesl 2004-06-11, 3:11 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by azimuth40
Yes and then sticker shock sets in. $226 for 12.2 quite a bit more that old routers are selling for on ebay. Then people starts to realize that IOS is like buying a copy of windows desktop or server and they cringe when they realize that an old $75 2501 is really $500 to put into legal production use.
Yup. You pays your dime, you takes your chances....
!!!!! | |
| Tophat 2004-06-11, 10:04 pm |
| This may start a debate about something that is only tangentially related to the ccna, but I believe that cisco should make it easy to practice and work on routers not hard. They should provide study or student licenses of there IOS software, and a IOS sim so that anyone can study, play and configure.
Its only in there best interest to get as many people familiar and comfortable with the IOS.
tophat | |
|
| who will really let this get in the way of their learning... my god, you mean I have to invest REAL money in my future?
I didn't get windows 2003 datacenter with my purchase of 486/66 off ebay... Its like a pyramid... ppl who get into routers and routing group should be more motivated than those who are into the latest MS desktop OS. provide evaluation for them... I do not believe there is a need for that here... Network group is a different breed. Its evaluation and learning should be more exclusive.
Who really touch routers, who should touch routers and be certified, see... the idea is to certify those that are actually in some way work with this stuff... to solidify their knowledge.
I don't think it is to their best interest to build a legion of certified individual whose whole experience with cisco is through some sim... and those who are willing to cut corners. I believe there is also sim for those *students* in approval learning facilities... education license prolly. Anyway, why is ccie so well respected, because each individual prove to be didicated and recognize what it is to be successful and are willing to dedicate themselves to that end.
edit: in reading the other post, it seems that the boson and the sybex are all included with box, or in a bundled package... perhaps they should make books free also so everyone can learn, oh wait, cisco.com
those who can't deal with 11.x on their ebayed 2500 to learn the basic of IOS and XXXXX about not having the latest IOS to *learn* are putting roadblocks in their learning THEMSELVES, not cisco... These individuals are whiners who are more interested in looking for excuses for their failure than to actually honestly evaluate themselves and prolly won't cut it anyway. why in the world would you need to have IPSEC/FW feature set for your ccna study... most have never been to cisco to read their command references and only know whatever command is in their ccna self study book. CCNA now are a dime a dozen... like the MCSE who doesn't know technet, many CCNA has no idea of document CD... cisco should make it HARDER, not easier to learn to creat increase credibility and value. Onlythe dedicated will survive.
Alot of ppl learned under moer difficult circumstances... when 2500 are a few thousands, then it became a few hundreds even on ebay... They all learned... and so can ppl now...if ppl really want toys, they should work to get to a place where ppl will buy them toys... maybe if one works hard enuff, they will get to the toystore and have access to stuff outsiders can only dream off. We are all working for that pay off right? | |
| forbesl 2004-06-12, 7:58 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tophat
...but I believe that cisco should make it easy to practice and work on routers not hard. They should provide study or student licenses of there IOS software, and a IOS sim so that anyone can study, play and configure.
So then Cisco should provide everything for FREE to everyone who wants to study for their tests? How about they provide free routers to everyone while they're at it? This isn't the utopian vision of Gene Rodenberry and Star Trek ....people still have to pay money in exchange for services.
quote:
Originally posted by Tophat
Its only in there best interest to get as many people familiar and comfortable with the IOS.
Cisco isn't Microsoft. They don't need or want a whole hoard of people who understand and know how to use their IOS. Cisco doesn't make $$$ on the home comsumer (as Microsoft does), but on the business enterprise. Yes, they've acquired Linksys, but they'd still do just fine without that.
As far as their best interest goes, Cisco Press, the Cisco Academy, and numerous Cisco learning courses are all there to "get people familiar and comfortable" with the IOS. In addition, see this post for a link to FREE IOS study material.
There is no shortage of Cisco certified individuals, and I don't believe there ever will be. I think Cisco is already doing what they feel is "their best interest", otherwise they'd be bankrupt by now.
I'll say this again. If you don't like the way Cisco does business, then don't use their friggin' product, don't get their certifications, and don't buy their used routers off e-bay expecting them to come to your aid when you need a new IOS. Besides, you don't need a router with the "full Monty" IOS to study for your CCNA.
!!!!! | |
| chitownsvt 2004-06-12, 9:05 am |
| [Edited by moderator]
Pirates should stick to the ocean.
 | |
| forbesl 2004-06-12, 9:16 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by chitownsvt
Need some fairly new IOS? Do a search on yahoo for something called <snip>
Yup, I'm sure they'll be some stupid jackass out there who will give you a bootleg copy.
..... | |
| Tophat 2004-06-12, 3:03 pm |
| So mikop and forbesl I don’t think you get it. From your post it would seem that you look at the cisco ccna as some great accomplishment but in truth its an entry level exam. It’s the basic intro into cisco networking and really is not as special as you make it out to be. Mikop you stated that “CCNA now are a dime a dozen” and part of the reason is that there are companies like te$tking and actualan$swers (which by the way this forum endorses) and the other reason is because its entry level. The knowledge you have after passing your ccna exam is far less then you need to build an enterprise network.
From the cisco website “The CCNA certification (Cisco Certified Network Associate) indicates a foundation in and apprentice knowledge of networking. CCNA certified professionals can install, configure, and operate LAN, WAN, and dial access services for small networks (100 nodes or fewer)…” This is not some great accomplishment that should be reserve for very few people.
Both of you make comparisons to Microsoft in your post and I have to disagree with you on the point that cisco is not Microsoft. As far as networking is concerned it is the Microsoft of network certification. Are either of you familiar with the ena* certification. It basically covers the same basic topics as the ccna but is far less recognized not in the industry but by clueless employers. The point I am making is there are many certs out there that test the same knowledge as the ccna, but the ccna has become the quasi standard because of the market share that cisco enjoys in networking. Its is my position that you can compare the ccna to the mcp and here is why: both are entry level exams, both test entry level knowledge for there specific products and basic overall knowledge for their industry. Only difference between the two is that most people have become familiar with the interface, gui and workings of a desktop/server OS, while cisco CLI and IOS is new to them. It is overcoming this learning curve that I think cisco should provide free of charge by giving people an IOS simulator.
forbesl you said “I'll say this again. If you don't like the way Cisco does business, then don't use their friggin' product, don't get their certifications” and that does not make much sense does it. Not using there products because I dislike there certification process makes little sense and will severely limit my job options because of the large install base of cisco. Also, I hopefully made my point about cisco being the quasi standard for networking certs and therefore not getting it would be career suicide. I hope we can agree that if you truly serious about a networking career or are working in networking you should take and pass at least the ccna.
Mikop you said “cisco should make it HARDER, not easier to learn to creat increase credibility and value” and I think they have.. its called the ccie. Back in the days, it is my understanding that they only had ccie and then cisco decided that it was in there best interest to offer lesser certifications and the ccna and ccnp tracks were born. This is reason you can still take the ccie exam without having any of the later developed certs, however, its not recommended unless you have lots and lots of experience.
I hope both of you see that I am not making excuses for the letting people pass easier, however economics should not prevent someone from studying for an entry level exam. If you ask me if a person working towards their ccie should have a home lab or at least access to a lab environment, you will get no argument from me, but an entry level exam should not cost a thousand dollars or more to study. A student should not have to buy several cisco routers just to pass the ccna or purchase sims from third party vendors. Maybe you can answer me the question why cisco should not provide an IOS sim to perspective students.
The cisco website is a great tool for both studying and finding real world solutions and help. I use it often for research and if you have read my past posts, you will find that I think they should offer the website as a reference source during the exam to make the exam more like the real world. Because of cheating concerns they can not allow people bring reference books into the exam as some people have posted, but they can give controlled access to cisco.com and make the test more like the real world: test knowledge of subject not just memorize special topics.
Finally, I am not trying to diminish the accomplishments of succeeding in getting the ccna and applaud all who have passed. However, most of you have to agree that with proper studying and adequate experience the exam is easily manageable.
* ENA = Extreme Networks Associate (http://www.extremenetworks.com/education/cert/ExtremeNetworksAssociate.asp) | |
| forbesl 2004-06-12, 4:34 pm |
| Very well thought out and presented. I do not disagree with many of the things you stated. CCNA is an entry level network exam and I never stated it wasn't. I just don't believe Cisco should (and probably won't) start handing out free sims and free IOS downloads for the exam. If there were an industry-wide shortage of entry level Cisco network technicians maybe they just might, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
As mikop stated they are a dime a dozen right now and many of them don't have a clue how to even apply their certification. I think many are under the mistaken impression that it will land them a fantastic high paying job. You've got great technicians and excellent engineers out there right now looking for jobs who have NO certifications whatsoever that will get those jobs before anyone with a cert and no experience. But I digress....
quote:
Originally posted by Tophat
(which by the way this forum endorses)
Examnotes might endorse and promote them, but many of us here do not, including the forum moderator.
quote:
I hope we can agree that if you truly serious about a networking career or are working in networking you should take and pass at least the ccna.
No argument there.
quote:
Maybe you can answer me the question why cisco should not provide an IOS sim to perspective students.
I think Cisco would ask "why should they"? I direct you back to the "dime a dozen" scenerio.
Even with a sim, a CCNA candidate will not gain the knowledge of how a real router works. Some probably couldn't even show you how to console into a router from a computer, what terminal software to use, or even what kind of cable to use. That's where the benefit of using real equipment comes in. I'm not a big fan of e-bay (although I admit I have purchased a couple of things there), but a Cisco 2500 router is dirt cheap. The old 11.0 series IOS that comes with many of them is just fine for studying for the exam. They don't NEED to upgrade the IOS, and it only takes two routers to study with, not several. They could probably buy two routers and a switch for less than a good sim costs.
I could go on, but I'm hungry. It's time for chow.
!!!!! | |
|
| You make it sounds like to study for the CCNA exam is cost prohibited... Thousands? comeon... a little creativity and resourcefulness goes a long way.
1. Older books are selling for pennies on the dollar. You pick one up, compare the differences, supplement it with cisco.com
2. You go to your local library, you go to your local cico user group, each of them should have atleast a few book on the subject you can borrow. If not, there is normally a process in which you can request that they stock a subject.
3. You can study everything contain within ccna by its website, its exam outline and google.
Now, let me address equip,
1. there are places like r1r2 which atleast can get one started.
2. ebay. it is so cheap there it is unbelievable... As we mentioned many times, who cares if its 11.x? All those who think 11.x is killing their chances to pass the exam have no clue or is finding ways to excuse their failure. Still think 2501 is too expensive, look at the less popular models like 2502... but wait... WAAAA, I don't have token ring and I want to connect this to my x and y and all sort of crazy stuff... WHINE.
3. eeeeerrr... You can litterally buy a whole ccna set for 200 dollars... that's a lot for preparing a test that is going to cost you 125 bucks?... and a test that hopefully will get into the door if you are new? My god, the investment is killing me... But heh... where did you buy that set? ebay... ok... let's think... I can buy ebay, I believe we can also sell at ebay....
DUH!. so that 200 you eat some interest, you sell it for a loss. what are you out? 50 bucks? Still too much?
4. You can buy a sim for 50-100 bucks, from other post, some basic sim is included with the book purchase... still too much?
5. you can rent rack time for 20-30 dollar for basic ccna lab... for a whole 24 hours... You can do every lab in the book 3-5 times easy in a 24 hour block if you prepare yourself.
It is just a matter of whether a candidate WANTS it, not an issue of cisco not providing it. Cisco can make IOU public and those that let the previous obstacle stand in tehir way to properly learn IOS will still complain about it not having a GUI and not runnign on windows. | |
| Tophat 2004-06-12, 5:42 pm |
| I guess we disagree on the one subject about the cisco providing the sim, which is ok… since neither of us work in an position where we can know what cisco is thinking its ok to disagree (I assume you dont work for cisco in that capacity, otherwise you would have told me rather then give your opinion).
I have to say that as long as people have brain dumps and condensed versions of study books there will be paper certs. Cisco is stuck between having an entry level exam which should be relatively easy and creating an exam that one can not just pass by reading a pre-chewed book. It’s a tough task, and I am not sure if there is a perfect approach to it. I think that cisco just has to accept that there are certain people who will be paper certs and there are those that will know their stuff. They will then rely on an employer to find out how much knowledge a certified person has. CCNA may get your foot in the door, but your knowledge will get you your job.
Back to the sim, I think it would be great for cisco to have a sim out there with all their equipment. Think of how easy your change control would be if you could first simulate the changes in a software sim, tweek them to where you want it, implement the changes in a lab environment (most companies can not afford a full lab anyways so the sim would be of huge use there) and then you would be assured that the changes would work in the real network. So not only do they have a vested interest in creating a sim for their customers to use as a test lab, but they could give out a limited version of the same software to students who wish to really learn the IOS.
Again, you mentioned paper certs, and I say what better way to remove paper certs by giving them the tools they need to actually work on routers. You said most paper certs don’t know how to attach a console cable and I say so what. When I first touched a router many years ago, I have no experience at all… I knew what a router did, but that was it. I looked at the console cable and thought what an interesting Ethernet cable. I was very green, but by the end of my first day (lots of reading on cisco.com) I was in the router and configuring the basics. What I am saying is that the little things like console settings, what cable to use, what a router looks like is the easy part and can be learned in one day on the job. Setting up an access-list to prevent the sasser virus from entering your network can only be learned by practice.
For mikop argument, a free sim will also allow cisco to include more sims in there test, since they can expect more users to know the CLI. This will prevent someone from just downloading a bunch of questions and memorizing the answers. This will also allow this type of forum to answer more topic related questions then specific questions that may be found on the exam. I see lots of question about the exam and specific exam like questions, but really very few about the topics covered, i.e. whats learning crutch can one use in calculating subnets, what is the best way to configure an access list, how do you tweek rip, eirgp, ospf on a WAN with very slow links. (it might be that these are also to advanced for the ccna but I hope you were able to get my point).
Since the IOS that is the original topic of discussion and it is really only software, then there is no good reason to only learn on a real hardware router. Software is software whether its on a router or computer it’s the same. To pass the exam, I think you will need to see how a router/sim reacts to a command, but a sim can give you enough of the feeling that a real router would. If you do everything right, a sim can react the same as a real router. The only difference is in the problems states a router can have that a sim can not always duplicate completely, but that type of learning is also for a higher certifications anyway, where we both agree that a home / office lab is necessary.
Back to your argument about the physical interfaces, which I think can be learned from a book. None of the exams actually test or require the knowledge of the EIA/TIA standard for v.35 or alike. You may need to know what it is but you certainly don’t need to know the standard, and are not required to know which pin in the block does what. The information on the physical interfaces can be learned in a couple of days without the need to have physical equipment. (I think its good to have held a router, but I don’t think its necessary to pass the exam).
My final point is for all those that have a 11.x router and are looking at upgrading. I can say from the topics covered, the discussions on the test and soon from experience that the router you have will more then suffice to practice for passing the ccna. If you can configure and work with a 2500 using 11.x then you should will pass the exam. I never had the luxury to afford even $500 on a couple of routers when I passed the first time, but I was lucky that I had worked with them for my job. It was important then and it more important now to know the CLI, the commands, and the ever helpful “?”.
I will end this post with a question of my own directed at all who have recently taken the new ccna. Do the sims have the ability to use that friendly “?” that every cisco networking engineer relies on at least once in there life?
tophat | |
| Tophat 2004-06-12, 6:04 pm |
| mikop,
you posted while i was writing my rather long responce to forbesl otherwise i would have addredded your post as well.
Again, you dont seem to understand my point. $100 bucks, $50 bucks its all the same. If you dont have it, then even $20 bucks is to much. On that subject, athletes get millions to endorse a product. If you think of your self as the athletes of networking, why should you pay to endorse a product? Since cisco paying us for our certs is absurd, I think they can at least make it no cost.
I agree with you on the 11.x routers. They will provide more then enough learning experience for someone to pass the ccna. But we were talking about my assertion that cisco should (not will they) provide a free sim to help in the certification process. Note the word help. They are not giving you the answers; they will only provide you with the tools necessary to know their products.
From a marketing point, its in cisco’s interest as well. If there are a lot of cisco certs out there, companies will purchase cisco because of the higher ROI and lower TCO that they provide. More cisco certs = more people who know cisco = more people who push cisco = more cisco sales.
I think i have made arguments why its in the interest of cisco, the student and the employer to have cisco provide a free sim.
i been in networking for a couple of years now and I have never heard of r1r2. I come to this forum for exactly that type of information. No man can do it alone I say... just like no man can know it all. I assume you post here to both get knowledge and receive it. Instead of badmouthing people or talking down to them as you did in your last post, you may wish to rethink you post, make it useful, fill it with a couple of links and then someone may actually learn from your knowledge. | |
|
| if 50 dollars is too much for someone to invest in their learning when the test is 125 dollars, they have no business taking the exam. They have better things to do with that 125 dollars if they can't invest another 50 on something useful.
You are putting the blame of ppl's innate greed to do things the easy way on cisco's lack of a free exam simulation software. You are assuming that ppl will utilize the free software even if they didn't have to. You are assuming that I don't advocate a tougher simulation based exam even when there is no free software. I want them to make it harder so it actually serve its purpose, to weed out those that want and those that are just wannabe. | |
|
| I will sum up, we are going no where.
keep in mind I fully recognize that this is a gross generalization.
but this is like talking to a bleeding heart liberal apologist who think the solution to all social ills are to provide them more services. They exist because we have not done enough.
The society is a mess up because we have not provided them enuff... more more more... They are socioeconomically disadavantaged, give give give.
We will never reach a concensus or even an agreement to disagree. | |
| Tophat 2004-06-12, 6:31 pm |
| once again, you missed the point completely. I don’t want cisco to provide a free exam sim. I want them to provide a free IOS sim. that’s all... this will only help people to have a better understanding of the IOS and then you can make the exam as hard as a basic exam should be.
I think that $125 for the test and another $100 for the study material can be a little hard to swallow for some, esp. if they dont already have a good job or have been laid off and wish to improve their knowledge and prove it. Power to you if you dont think that thats alot of money, but some people dont just have that laying around. Who are you to tell them that they should not test because of financial reasons. Which brings me full circle: personal finances should not prevent someone from learning cisco. Cisco should make it so that all who want to learn it should be able to and those that have attained a certain level of knowledge will then be certified by cisco for having accomplished just that. | |
| dumfart 2004-06-12, 6:50 pm |
| There is no benefit to Cisco in providing free anything to anybody. Cisco is relatively cheap to learn as it is and there is no shortage of people who already know Cisco routers and switches. Try learning Juniper routers, and then you’ll see just how good you have it with Cisco. Juniper has no sims and no affordable routers available. Lucky for me my employer has an extensive Juniper lab onsite; however, it took a lot of work and time developing my Cisco skills before an employer like that was interested in me. | |
| Sexy Lexy 2004-06-12, 7:35 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tophat
I think that $125 for the test and another $100 for the study material can be a little hard to swallow for some, esp. if they dont already have a good job or have been laid off and wish to improve their knowledge and prove it.
Power to you if you dont think that thats alot of money, but some people dont just have that laying around. Who are you to tell them that they should not test because of financial reasons. Which brings me full circle: personal finances should not prevent someone from learning cisco. Cisco should make it so that all who want to learn it should be able to and those that have attained a certain level of knowledge will then be certified by cisco for having accomplished just that.
It is an interesting point but it does not apply to the real world.
As many have pointed out, there is no shortage of Certified Cisco engineers (good or bad) so providing access to the IOS for training isn't a consideration or worry for Cisco.
Unfortunately, personal finances dictate everything in IT.
Like most people, I had to and still work long hours to pay for the exams and certification as well as keeping my skills up to date and remaining competitive in the industry.
This is the nature of the industry; you have to put a great deal in to get the same return on your investment.
Not everyone has the aptitude or desire to become a Cisco engineer, those that do have to buy routers, study material and pay for the exams.
You have to either accept the situation as part of your career or find another job as this is what is required.
| |
| Tophat 2004-06-12, 8:20 pm |
| lexy,
those people who have money have a hard time finding the time and those who have the time have a hard time finding the money. I think that a router sim would be cheaper then a router lab and therefore better on the wallet, easier to work with, portable and an all around a better tool to have to learn networking.
I think its only in cisco's best interest to develop something like a IOS sim. Who knows if they have (for internal use) or ever will. One thing is clear, it would make our jobs easier and it would help students to learn rather then regerditate.
You are paying to learn their product. Its like shaq paying for shoes. Users (fans) pay, athleats (engineers) play for free.
Plus where is it in cisco's interest to let a third party company (router$im and Bo$on)make the money of there property.
you are right when you say in not in the real world, but my point was just that, they should. | |
| Sexy Lexy 2004-06-12, 8:36 pm |
| Don't take this the wrong way but you have yet to make a valid point for your argument.
You say Cisco should produce training software to emulate the IOS but they really have no reason to do so.
I am not seeking endorsements or handouts and yes I am paying to learn their product; is there any other way to learn? I am paying for training like every other career.
You don't see Nike providing amateur athletes with complementary footwear or clothes; or the respective sports company providing the equipment at discount prices to enable them do develop their skills for there chosen sport.
It is a utopian vision and it would be fantastic if they did provide what you are suggesting but business is supply and demand with no need to supply what you are demanding.
| |
| azimuth40 2004-06-12, 10:12 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
So then Cisco should provide everything for FREE to everyone who wants to study for their tests? How about they provide free routers to everyone while they're at it? This isn't the utopian vision of Gene Rodenberry and Star Trek ....people still have to pay money in exchange for services.
Cisco has made it about as close to free as possible. If someone can't afford or have access to their own equipment then they can go to a a Cisco Academy. I can't speak for other locales but our local ones in the central and east L.A. county area cost $20-$50 per semester. Four semesters is $200. I think LA city schools that take adults are about the same. If they can't afford that then try something else.
Many single quarter/semester university books cost more than that. Having got the bills from my daughters I know the prices unfortunately. | |
| azimuth40 2004-06-12, 10:51 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tophat
* ENA = Extreme Networks Associate (http://www.extremenetworks.com/educ...ksAssociate.asp)
I never considered ENA a cheap cert but maybe my memory is failing. Lets check
I have got to hand it to Extreme they have made it even easier that Juniper.
Lets see ENA Cert. from the web site
Step 1 Attend the following instructor-led course or gain equivalent experience:
ECT-200/5: ExtremeWare Configuration and Troubleshooting course
Step 2 Register to take the exam at a Thomson Prometric testing center (guess they don't like VUE)
Step 3 Pass the ENA exam $199 vs. $125
Step 4 Receive ENA certification
No free experience so training has got to be the ticket
Ahh ECT-200/5 $3150 plus 5 days lodging.
Local 5 day equivalent CCNA bootcamp $595 no lodging needed.
ebay 2 routers and a switch with 12.2 by now price $595
ENA is the ticket Works for me. | |
| Tophat 2004-06-12, 11:28 pm |
| azimuth40
your point is taking my comment about the ENA out of context. I mentioned it only as an example of a cert that has similar requirements as the ccna but hardly anyone knows about it. The point I was making was that the ccna is the standard in network certification. I was not talking about the costs of one cert vs. the other.
I think that any vendor should provide free training for there product. If you are going to be a proponent of their product then you should at least get the knowledge for free. I know for a fact from experience that both Cisco and Symantec offer free training for particular people or companies. My only point here is to say that they should provide it to all those who want to learn since it does not cost them any more to do so (cbt’s or webcasts).
Again, I am not familiar with the Cisco Academy and think its great that they are offering those courses.
I dont think any of you can tell me you would not love to have a good IOS sim to practice and play on. If that is the case, then the only thing that we dont agree on is the price. Perhaps I have a more social view on the topic then, but hey, most of you who posted in this thread look to have that same social view. Why otherwise help others in the forum?
And yes lexy, amateur athletes do get free stuff (shoes, sunglasses and equipment) or at a sharply reduced rate. I am talking about amateur athletes and not recreational athletes and there is a difference. I would say the similar comparison could be made between network engineers and users. | |
| azimuth40 2004-06-13, 12:04 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tophat
azimuth40
your point is taking my comment about the ENA out of context. I mentioned it only as an example of a cert that has similar requirements as the ccna but hardly anyone knows about it. The point I was making was that the ccna is the standard in network certification. I was not talking about the costs of one cert vs. the other.
Sorry I did not mean to take it out of context. Your context was not apparent to me. I thought you were saying that other networking vendors do a better job. Anyone that is not familiar with the competition is doing their self a dis-service. Since I have been poking around the IT industry 30 years or so I have different outlooks on things.
Both Cisco and Symantec and most other companys offer free training to very large customers and business partners. It is part of the nut to store for the future. Get one to hire you and you may get free training too. Microsoft gives free or almost free software away. Even if you are a very small guy Microsoft will give you upto 10 licenses for most everything worth more than $25K for a few hundred per year. If IBM thinks you can make a single dime for them they shower you with stuff. All you have to do is convince any of them that you are worth it and there lies the rub.
So the question still remains should they give things to some person that says I think I would like to learn about your stuff give me some freebees. As a manager I would have to say what is in it for me.
I don't know if a sim would be nice or not, the ones that I saw a few years ago sucked. I have six routers and two switches and am budgeting for a 3550 just to see why they added it to the ccie lab. When I feel that I don't need them anymore then I will sell them. I also have 4 small servers, three desktops and two laptops so that I can attempt to try most anything for myself. I am not in this for the certs anyways so I don't stress over it. At this late stage people aren't looking at my certs when they look at my CV. They all become obsolete with time anyway. | |
| dumfart 2004-06-13, 1:25 am |
| Why should Cisco give a rat's a$$ whether you know their product or not? The key question here is "WHAT IS IN IT FOR THEM?!?!?" You have to have a much better reason than "because I want to be a proponent of your products." You have to learn the skills to get hired somewhere decent; then you can get free or cheap stuff. There is no benefit to Cisco in helping you learn those skills; they are in business to make money, not to run a social program and give away freebies to every goober off the street. What's the point of another simulator anyways? Simulators are all crap; there is no way that you can truly emulate all of the oddball quirks of IOS in a simulator. Simulators may help you pass an entry-level exam like the CCNA, but they won't help you much in the real world. I am interested in BMW cars. I think BMW should give me one of the soon-to-be released 2005 M5s with the all-new 500hp v10 engine. If I am going to be a proponent of their products, it is only fair that I have a chance to train on them. I know for a fact that certified BMW dealers get training on BMW cars. If I can't get a real 2005 M5, maybe they can give away (or sell real cheap) an M5 simulator built on a standard 5 series; that way I can at least get familiar with their products. | |
| Tophat 2004-06-13, 3:55 am |
| dumfart
once again you stay true to your name and fail to make a point or be funny. Distributing software has little or no cost to cisco and since I am not asking them to provide routers (hardware) like you want bmw to provide for you your analogy is way off. Next time try to find an analogy that actually makes sense.
Cisco provides their documentation cd free of charge, which shows they offer good learning tools at no cost to the public. Cisco also gives out free stuff all the time. Shirts, mugs, pens… which all cost money. So why not an IOS sim. An IT department that uses it would influence the decision makers to purchase cisco and that is something that as you put it “is in it for them”. I agree with todays sims not being worth much, but a company with the resources like cisco should have little problems making one that is really good. | |
| Tophat 2004-06-13, 3:59 am |
| one more thing. BMW will provide you with a FREE test drive so you can become familiar with the product. If cisco did that, we would not need a router sim would we. | |
| Sexy Lexy 2004-06-13, 6:20 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tophat
one more thing. BMW will provide you with a FREE test drive so you can become familiar with the product. If cisco did that, we would not need a router sim would we.
But did they provide driving lessons free of charge or at a discount rate so that you can take a free test drive in their 2005 M5 first place?
No they did not.
| |
| forbesl 2004-06-13, 8:44 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tophat
one more thing. BMW will provide you with a FREE test drive so you can become familiar with the product. If cisco did that, we would not need a router sim would we.
Of course they do; if you have a license and know how do drive. Get what I'm trying to say?
..... | |
| forbesl 2004-06-13, 9:00 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tophat
Cisco also gives out free stuff all the time. Shirts, mugs, pens… which all cost money. So why not an IOS sim.
Let's see...
One shirt = $
One pen = $
One mug = $
One IOS sim = $$$
Looks like you need to "find an analogy that actually make sense".
.....
quote:
An IT department that uses it would influence the decision makers to purchase cisco...
Whoa, hold up here. I thought you were advocating giving it free to consumers, now you're talking about a business. Which is it? Cisco already does this for businesses. Matter of fact, they just sent me a VPN concentrator so I could train my coworkers. See my previous post about "test drives"....Cisco does it too, if you already know what you're doing. Like I said in a previous post, they make their money on the enterprise, not the consumer.
...!! | |
| dumfart 2004-06-13, 11:34 am |
| Monsieur Tophat:
Like BMW, Cisco already does give “test drives’ to qualified drivers. I have had plenty of free training arranged by my local Cisco rep. He has also scheduled me, and people I work with, free time in their test lab in order to put equipment through its paces; not to mention that he frequently gives us loaners to try when we are considering buying a piece of Cisco equipment. This may be shocking, but it takes time and money to develop a simulator. The world doesn’t need another Cisco simulator, there are plenty of simulators out there to help one pass the CCNA exam; they are of little use for any exams more advanced than entry-level and they are next to useless for real world knowledge. Even if Cisco could make an accurate sim, the amount of time and effort it would take would be considerable; IOS has too many oddball quirks and functions to be able to simulate it accurately without considerable effort. It is you who has no argument, your response to everything is “I think Cisco should give me a sim”; you have yet to give a good reason why. It will not make one bit of difference in Cisco’s business whether or not you know anything about their products. A good sim would take a lot of effort to develop and it would have little to no benefit to Cisco; no decent IT department is going to pass on a Cisco router or switch because they didn’t get a free sim. Here is how the system works: 1) Teach yourself the skills 2) Get the good job 3 ) Get free stuff and perks. If you were any denser, you would be a black hole; judging by the way you have sucked us into your silly argument, perhaps you are. | |
| Sexy Lexy 2004-06-13, 1:03 pm |
| If this turns into a flaming session then it will be closed.
| |
| 2lazybutsmart 2004-06-13, 1:22 pm |
| I think that's exactly where it's heading.
Some people just can't keep away from "it".
2lbs.
p.s. dumfart: did you ever hear about something called "paragraphs".  | |
|
| Ah! sure sign of a thread turning into a flame..
When someone who has not participated suddenly felt like putting in their 2 cents on something that has nothing to do with the argument in process...
/me taking the bait because this thread is a bore and closing it would save all of us the energy so it is more fun to point out the *tactic* for some select member of this forum. whose the flaming idiot?! | |
| Sexy Lexy 2004-06-13, 1:30 pm |
| I think this has run it's course.
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