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Home > Archive > CCNA > March 2004 > Certs and the real world
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Certs and the real world
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| Yankee 2004-03-07, 8:12 am |
| Let me start by saying cheating sucks, but I have come to the realization in happens everywhere in life and there is little anyone can do to stop it. Professional sports is a great example. You have everything from performance enhancing drugs (no one of my age can forget the East German women's Olympic teams in the 60s and 70s or recent cases in baseball and football in the US) to the subtle interference in football or hockey with the extra pull on a jersey or hook with a stick, but let's stick with the IT industry. Lucky for us it doesn't really matter because we have interviewing processes to weed out the wheat from the chaff.
I shall try and illustrate my point using three techs Tom, Dick and Harry none of whom have a Cisco certification. Tom has had a network job for five years and has been helping support a large network that uses frame-relay, ISDN backup and a large campus LAN. He has had his hands in everything and is respected for his networking knowledge in the shop. Coworkers know they can go to him to get an explanation as to how something works on the network. Tom's boss puts in his review he must get his Cisco CCNA due to a customer requirement. Dick's been around a couple of years pulling cables and turning up switch ports for new users. He has interest in moving up the ladder and getting involved in more complicated networking issues, so he decides to try for his CCNA. Harry works at the Help Desk and wants to make more money so he too opts to go for his CCNA.
Tom just wants to get his boss off his back, so he chooses to purchase one of the test programs known to have many actual exam questions on it (they all do to one degree or another, so there aren't any saints out there anymore). After a week or two Tom passes his exam and is a CCNA.
Dick buys the Cisco Press book and reads it a couple of times. He might even try some test questions. All the info required for the exam is pretty fresh in his mind, so he too takes the exam and becomes a CCNA.
Harry is in a rush because he wants to make more money, so he signs up for a one week CCNA bootcamp. The following week he too passes the exam based on that "training".
Now we have three CCNAs that passed their exam using different methods. After a couple of months by pure chance all three apply for a job at ABC company that has a CCNA cert as a requirement for the open position. They all get called in for the technical interview.
Tom breezes thru most of the questions and is able to explain in some depth why something works as it does.
Dick is at a disadvantage because time has passed and while he had read alot he never really understood the concepts. He is able to answer the basic questions in a general way, but lacks the understanding to really explain it to others.
Harry is a lost cause. By the time of the interview he can barely spell RIP, let alone answer any technical questions.
Let's quickly review our three new CCNAs. Tom totally cheated to get his cert. Dick took a reputable path but still needs much more work to be of value. Harry took what most here consider a legitimate path, but will never get a job without a ton more effort.
This tale is not fiction because I based these three on a composite of people I actually know and/or have interviewed.
The moral of the story is think long and hard before calling others names. Who really is a paper cert and who isn't? If you can't explain a subject so that someone else can understand it, then it is highly likely you don't understand it yourself. The respect of your colleagues is not gained by the list of certifications you post by your name, rather by the knowledge you can share with them.
I hope the time it took for me to make this post is not wasted,
Yankee | |
| Sexy Lexy 2004-03-07, 9:58 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Yankee
The respect of your colleagues is not gained by the list of certifications you post by your name, rather by the knowledge you can share with them.
I hope the time it took for me to make this post is not wasted,
Yankee
Not wasted at all, I agree with everything you posted.
Your input is always valued.
Here is one for everyone to chew on; The scenario that always sticks in my mind is as follows:
Tom, Has never laid his hands on a router, test simulator or virtual lab. Spends money at one web site, gets the information he's after and passes the exam.
Dick, Works in I.T. and has decided to expand upon his skill and expertise. Can not grasp most, if not the majority of the theory behind his chosen venture and decides upon the web site and learns the answers. Passes the exam.
Harry, Same as Dick but knows his stuff. Decides that he needs to know more to stay ahead so works over time to buy a few routers and a switch, buys the books and after months of study and revision passes the exam.
Is it now a case of who deserves the job? Or who can quote answers verbatim?
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| worrywarm 2004-03-07, 10:20 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Yankee
The respect of your colleagues is not gained by the list of certifications you post by your name, rather by the knowledge you can share with them.
Exactly.
people hold various capabilities. Some are better at paper exam while others maybe more capable of practice in real environment. Plus all those cheatsheets are available for you to purchase.
The more paper exams I take, the more I'm doubtful of the real weight they contain, so do those hiring people I bet(yankee, right?).
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| Sexy Lexy 2004-03-07, 10:33 am |
| Regardless of experience (Or what is stated on your CV) something like this should be sat before every interview:
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/10...n/demo_sim.html
Then, if you pass that you would be eligible for the next stage.
Obviously, different tasks should be performed depending upon the position applied for.
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| Yankee 2004-03-07, 11:39 am |
| Who gets hired is another story because other factors come into play. Tom from my example has experience, is proven and knows his stuff therefore commanding a higher salary. Of my three examples, any manager would want Tom, but most likely can't afford him for a CCNA level postion.
Certifications on their own with the exception of "having a number" do not carry much weight on their own. Having said that, two other things must be understood. More and more companies require a certification to even get an interview and secondly they demonstrate you have taken the time and made the effort to complete them.
So how do you get hired? Let's leave the "Toms'" of the world out of the discussion because they won't be competing for a CCNA position (if they are then there is something else wrong and the manager better beware). Even before the technical interview the resumes are screened, often by a couple of people. Job stability is a big factor. Those that change every year or two (with he exception of contractors) are frowned upon, especially if each move is not a step up the ladder.
The technical interview will weed out most candidates. The deeper your knowledge of basic networking the better you will do in this stage, but there is even more info the interviewers are trying to obtain. At this point I want to know about your drive and incentive to learn more. Tell me about your home lab, not just that you have it but what you do with it. Let me know that you are aware of the best networking books and authors, hopefully because you have attempted to read parts of them or perhaps even own them. Explain to me that you are particularily interested in a specific area like routing protocols, LAN switching or that you are still reading because you are still expanding yourt base knowledge before deciding on a direction (just don't say Network Security if that is a different group in the company!). Remember that the employer is looking for long term potential at this level, not just current knowledge.
Sell yourself as wanting to continue to learn and advance your skills to the benefit of both you and the company.
Certifications may get you in the door, but only you can get you the job offer.
Yankee | |
| s2kfan 2004-03-07, 1:30 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sexy Lexy
Is it now a case of who deserves the job? Or who can quote answers verbatim?
Does anyone really deserve a job? That's like telling someone, I'm going to give you the priveledge of working for me. Who is more qualified, who is in more need of a job, who can sell himself better.
Do you hire an arrogant a$$hole or someone more humble who you feel will work hard? Do you hire your friend, or your friend's friend?
These are all real life situations that happen. People don't always hire the most qualified. People don't necessarily hire the best candidate.
I work with more CCIEs than probably anyone here. Some are the sharpest guys who pubish books, while other you wonder how they possibly could have passed.
This must be one of the most stupid topics on this board (not this thread, but the debate). Such wasted use of space. If someone cheated their way to something, anything, then live with it, get over it. If someone worked hard, good for them.
This is a board full of hall monitors. Ewwwwh! You cheated, I'm telling. This if fricken grade school stuff. Why does everyone judge one another?
If someone gets a job and you don't, then many factors come into play. Maybe, you don't know how to talk to people or sell yourself, maybe you don't know what you're talking about, maybe the guy hired his wife's cousin, maybe somebody was better than you, maybe they made a poor decision.
This is the real world, deal with it.
I have worked in I.T. long enough to be on both sides of the offer table, different industries and many different roles. One of the most important things in a candidate is team fit. Aside from skill, knowledge and education, if my staff is not going to get along with the new guy, we're gonna have problems.
If "cheating material" in not allowed on this board, just ban it, delete the posts, warn the originator or whatever. Make it the first thing people see. If it's not then shut the hell up. Either way, if a person is not knowedgable for a job, it will catch up with them. | |
| Sexy Lexy 2004-03-07, 5:22 pm |
| Yankee,
You are a credit to this site, my hat goes off to you and you have my utmost respect.
Nice to see someone else with common sense and a down to earth approach.
Thank you. | |
| worrywarm 2004-03-07, 8:35 pm |
| Yankee, I read your post again and again. Although so far I haven't had an opporunity to receive an interview, I feel I learned a lot from your post.
Thank you very much! | |
| scooter 2004-03-08, 3:29 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by worrywarm
Yankee, I read your post again and again. Although so far I haven't had an opporunity to receive an interview, I feel I learned a lot from your post.
Thank you very much!
I agree ! I actually made a copy of it and placed it in my 'Job Hunting' folder...
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| ymchoy 2004-03-11, 11:26 am |
| quote:
Yankee, I read your post again and again. Although so far I haven't had an opporunity to receive an interview, I feel I learned a lot from your post.
=================
Great one.. I totally agree with your point of view. Very true indeed.
I am searching job and doing my CCNA atm. But after read your post.. I know what I should really concentrate on and knowledge need to be acquire.
cc | |
| Sexy Lexy 2004-03-11, 11:50 am |
| This is excellent.
Yankee has inspired so many with this thread.
It's like I have always said. A good CCNA who knows what they are doing is one hundred times more valuable that a paper CCNP.
Most of the members on here take their time in learning the skill set for the job as well as those letters on the CV.
This is everything I have always fought for on here.
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| ymchoy 2004-03-11, 7:22 pm |
| SExy Lexy, Do you mind i ask a stupid question?
Like since i am going for the CCNA track.. What are the things most of employers really look from me during the techincal interview?
I know the ability of troubleshooting is very important but seems it is a broad area... can you give me some valuable guidelines?
cc | |
| Sexy Lexy 2004-03-12, 12:33 pm |
| Most are after engineers with an experienced track record but don't let this put you off.
If you can demonstrate your ability and willingness to learn that will help a great deal.
Most jobs these days have a technical interview as standard, if you have a stung understanding of the basics and have the certification to prove this then that generates interest as well.
Show that you are committed and that you are not just jumping on a bandwagon for the money, this is a chosen career and you will put aside time to train and develop your skills and experience.
Oh yeah, that and asking intelligent questions in the interview helps as well. Just be confident in your ability and prove that you know what you need to so that you deserve the certification.
Yankee has already pointed this out but every little helps.
Good luck. | |
| Yankee 2004-03-13, 6:29 am |
| I forgot to mention the primary way people get IT jobs...knowing somebody who will speak up and recommend you. That means keep contacts and don't burn bridges behind you. I should follow my own advice
Yankee |
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