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Home > Archive > CCNA > January 2003 > Paper-CCNA's....what's wrong with that..?!
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Paper-CCNA's....what's wrong with that..?!
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| grhyme 2002-12-26, 4:08 am |
| Hi there!
Boy, didn't want to write this, because every persons opinion is exactly what it is: a persons opinion..
I just need this 10 minute of fame or something, because there has been a lot going on with Cisco adding some sims in the 607, that makes a lot of people go crazy!
Well, and if those people do pass, then other ones claim that it was all about just cramming for the exam and practicing some similation software and they passed! And on top of that claiming all those helpdesk spots with their wisdom that will be forgotten in a few weeks because they were just cramming and not really trying to grasp the concept of cisco....
I wonder what the difficulty is to attain CCNA status when I compare this to CCNP and such..
Even the questions are somewhat chosen out of a small box and with all those Testkings around, it's even easier to understand the questions AND the wrong & right answers.
No means to disrespect or slam down the "paper"-CCNA certifieds, because they don't excist...that's my opinion.
Just like a network essentials guy/girl, you just started to gather alot of information inside of you and it's up to you if you want to use it for further study or just stop right there.
Everyone has his or her own reason why they want to have it the easy way and just read and make sure they earn the paper.
Me, I want to get my CCIE one day and without much hands-on help around me it's pretty difficult to get there without grabbing all the theory that I can get.
Do I consider myself a paper-cisco guy...hardly! I work hard for everything that I read and really try to outthink the common answers by going in from other directions and get myself above the topic...that's in my opinion the only way that I can even start thinking about a chance at the lab one fine day...
Why I'm writing this? I wonder if there are people like me struggling, still enjoying their epic battles to consume and conquer new cisco-grounds and in the end be proud of their accomplishments by saying: "I couldn't affort classes or didn't had no company back up, but I did it...I did it!"
Gordon Mac Donald | |
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| Hello Gordon
Good to see another 'Cloggie'  on the forum, though I suspect from your name, you are ex-pat.
I suppose that when I got my CCNA, I would have been classified a 'paper CCNA' simply through lack of practical experience. Fortunately I was in a contract which afforded me the hands-on I needed to bolster my studies and from that, I could then begin to fully understand the concepts within CCNA.
I am now part CCNP qualified; on paper at least. But again, my present job allows me into Cisco networks running OSPF, NAT, firewalling etc. Here, I can gain practical experience to reinforce my studies.
I am a self-employed contractor, I cannot afford a lab just yet, and I pay for all my training. Until someone is qualified by virtue of sufficient hands-on experience, they will bear the mantle of being paper qualified; fact of life. That's not to belittle paper certified people. Where the severest criticism comes in, is when people 'pretend to know it all', but getting down it is a problem because of the lack of pratical experience.
We all knuckle down and cram from an exam; I have done from school days and through college. And we do this to achieve the best possible results. Theoretically, one only really remembers about 40%-60% of what they learn per se. The rest is made up of associating knowledge gained with a practical situation - the light goes on concept, and research, ie reviewing the topic or ones notes, or using other educational resources.
Hippo
(BTW, I like The Netherlands. I worked in Hoofddorp and Den Haag. Lovely place)
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| bass2k1 2002-12-27, 4:59 am |
| Would you like a paper-surgeon operate on you? Same goes for companies hiring network engineers and administrators.
Just my 2 cents
sebastiaan.rothman@bhpbilliton.com | |
| grhyme 2002-12-27, 5:20 am |
| paper-surgeon?!?! Sorry, I don't know what that is..but I do believe that there are enough medical students who started as paper-something...hard working, trying to keep up with the latest additions and finally get that chance to start somewhere as an intern or I don't know how that goes...
As a CCNA, paper or not, you just start as anyone else: helpdesk or if you're lucky as an assistent administrator.
I do believe that when you get new things in there to see, that you adapt to the material quicker then anyone else..
If you're someone who's not interested in the rest, then your supervisor or your team will quickly find that out anyway and you might be looking for that spot in the unemployementline....
So a paper-surgeon..? Nope, never heared of it...
Gordon. | |
| iwan1981 2002-12-27, 9:24 am |
| I don't get it?
WHat is your point gordon? | |
| grhyme 2002-12-27, 9:39 am |
| The point was actually not much, just replying to bass2k1 that paper-surgeons are not the reality nowadays.
The reason I wrote my first one was to find out if there are more people outthere studying without the proper backup(company's aid, neighbour's private lab)but who have to do a lot from in their own free time.
Just checking, I was always curious who they pull those feats off, because I see hell everywhere at every door that I open just to chip in some freetime myself!!
Call it time-management, but to be recently married (2 years) and a 8 month old son (Hi Michael!!)will not help the goals, not their faults, but it's there..
Ah...whatever...10-min. of fame's up!
Gordon
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| MaulerJ 2002-12-27, 10:45 am |
| No, I feel you, the paper CCNA is what I think I will end up for awhile at least. I get some hands on 2500,4000, and 3600, 1700, but that is mostly on practice machinery, not on a true live enterprise network, so i remain worried. However, once I test 15th of JAN, I will do an internship for free, to get some hands on. | |
| ChrisDfer 2002-12-27, 11:40 am |
| I think it also depends on your deifinition of paper-ccna. I mean does this include people who are "green" or people who have no hands on experience(this is what I think when I think paper CCNA) I mean I have lab that I am building which when I am done will have around 10 routers some switches and whatever else I plan on adding(cause it looks cool)Now I would consider once I get my CCNA that I would be a green CCNA not a paper CCNA. | |
| MaulerJ 2002-12-27, 12:55 pm |
| Call me GREEN | |
| DegreeButNo$ 2002-12-28, 11:28 am |
| Green, green I am green. You are right, we all have to start somewhere. If it makes you feel any better, the reason you started this thread to know if anyone else is out there with no company backing and is fiscally poor, I am on the same boat with you. Remember you are not the only one in the world who may be in a similar situation. Good luck and when you get the CCNA laugh at all others who still have something negative to say. You still have the cert and they have a mouth. Move on or move out you "paper CCNA"!!! | |
| Sexy Lexy 2002-12-29, 3:56 am |
| Why have the certification if you don't have the experience and knowledge?
You can't pass without these two attributes so if you don't have these with the certification it is a paper certificate. All you have is the piece of paper from Cisco with nothing else to back it up.
You might as well use it for toilet paper considering how much it would be worth.
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| depamo 2002-12-30, 12:32 am |
| My two bits on this,
Been so many threads on this, but most end up with the CCNA without experience is justification for entry level positions. Paper Certs get their 'spurs' on the actual job. How much you retain from the CCNA experience is up to you. You can cram your way through and learn only enough to pass the exam or you can understand the concepts to prepare yourself for moving up quickly through this highly competative field.
In todays world, Business has learned from the MCP's and CCNA's out there and are demanding more. Don't be surprised if you are asked to do Contract to Hire these days with no benefits or bonus. Most want experience before hiring now.
Its all how you get it. I have seen most CCNA's never re-cert or get their CCNP after getting a good job (reason that I have dogged out my CCDP), and if they do, it is usually on their own dime and time. Right now at least, experience speaks much louder then certs, well that and knowing someone on the inside always helps for hiring!! | |
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| jackiechan 2003-01-03, 11:16 am |
| The only thing that a cert paper is good for is to wipe arse. | |
| MadChef 2003-01-04, 7:14 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by jackiechan
The only thing that a cert paper is good for is to wipe arse.
Now come on. Paper certs are wonderful. There's no better way to show the value of the rest of us than to put a paper cert'ed individual on the network and watch the paralyzation set it.
My new favorite target are some paper CCIEs that I've run into. (They do exist, contratry to what many believe. I define them as people who just know what to expect in the lab, but are worthless when you put them in front of a real network). I listened to one CCIE say "SONIC ring" about five times in a conversation and nearly exploded I was trying so hard not to laugh.
I think you guys might be overlooking the amusement potential of paper certs. They're great fun!
MadChef | |
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| Nobody ever wondered why doctors work in practices?? | |
| ZFletche 2003-01-05, 2:16 pm |
| The analogy of a paper-surgeon is not even close to being a good example. If it were that would mean as you were studying to become a CCNA you would endure years of classroom (ie paper and book study) then once you accomplished that you would move up to working on test labs and interning for low pay , once that is finished you do a 4 year residence with other professional (CCNP,CCIE) then and only then are you able to work as a CCNA. Sounds more like and argument in becoming a CCIE than a CCNA. Anyways getting back to the point, has anybody in here actual looked at what cisco claims what a CCNA is ?
The CCNA certification (Cisco Certified Network Associate) indicates a foundation in and apprentice knowledge of networking. CCNA certified professionals can install, configure, and operate LAN, WAN, and dial access services for small networks (100 nodes or fewer), including but not limited to use of these protocols: IP, IGRP, Serial, Frame Relay, IP RIP, VLANs, RIP, Ethernet, Access Lists.
So how does one get a foundation in and apprentice knowledge of networking ? You Read, Study, simulate and cram before the test, so that you remember what rfc cover such and such protocol or the order in which access control list are. At somepoint yes you will have to apply what you learn, but until that break comes all you got is paper and simulators. | |
| babu75 2003-01-05, 4:28 pm |
| may be i'm green too. i don't know! i got my net+, ccna, ccda out of self-study with sims and training kits. as a carrier-changer and with no money to pay for classes(wouldn't pay even if i had), i guess you will term me as "paper-ccna".
i'm currently assembling routers/switches for ccnp-lab and some pc's for my mcsa/mcse lab. to understand the knowledge and content of these exams is more important than getting certified.
there are folks out there who have experience in router mngmnt but who can't subnet a simple class c address. or how about this dude in the ccnp forum with certs ccnp&mcse who asked what bgp was? excuse me! the experience will come easily once you have thorough knowledge of what you're pursuing.
please READ, READ & READ & seek for the knowledge. | |
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| I would have thought that, while I'm unemployed, I would be better off studying for my CCNA. But from what you lot are saying I would be better off not being certified because otherwise I'll just be a paper CCNA.
So what's better? Someone who has, at least, studied to a level where he/she can pass an exam or someone who doesn't bother?
I can't believe how wrong I've been. I really thought I stood a better chance of getting in to the IT industry by studying for recognised certs. But now I realise I should try to get into the IT industry with no certs because then I'm not a paper <insert cert here>. | |
| babu75 2003-01-05, 8:39 pm |
| well, i guess from his definition of "paper-cert" i.e someone with no experience, then and only in that case would i fit.
i believe you would be better off with your certs and the knowledge plus the rest will follow(experience).getting the cert is the easy part once you comprehend the subject-matter. | |
| aslee0 2003-01-05, 10:25 pm |
| Paper CCNAs = UNEMPLOYED | |
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| quote:
Originally posted by aslee0
Paper CCNAs = UNEMPLOYED
No CCNA = UNEMPLOYED
and your point is?
The venders should make a rule that says "You can't take our exams unless your employed" that way all you high and mighty EMPLOYED exam takers will be happy. | |
| DegreeButNo$ 2003-01-07, 3:20 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tronn
No CCNA = UNEMPLOYED
and your point is?
The venders should make a rule that says "You can't take our exams unless your employed" that way all you high and mighty EMPLOYED exam takers will be happy.
That put the econimically stasified individuals in there place. Much accolade unto you. | |
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| quote:
Originally posted by depamo
Its all how you get it. I have seen most CCNA's never re-cert or get their CCNP after getting a good job (reason that I have dogged out my CCDP), and if they do, it is usually on their own dime and time. Right now at least, experience speaks much louder then certs, well that and knowing someone on the inside always helps for hiring!!
After getting my CCNA, I originally wanted to go for my CCNP and even went so far as to buy the Cisco Press CCNP Preparation Suite. But after some time studying for the BSCI, the main problem soon became apparent - no oppotunity for hands-on.
I'm not working for any networking-related company, and buying my own hardware for practice (even from eBay) is too expensive a proposition to consider. So on second thoughts, the CCNP would be much more relevant once I get a networking-related job, which seems all the much harder nowadays given the current economic climate... | |
| Adorik 2003-01-09, 6:04 am |
| hi folks,
i got a new job, thangs god it is with a cisco partner the bad thing was they made a test during the interview. i think they made that to see if i am a paper ccnp if you are interested i gonna tell what they did
1. they gave me a router config and i had to describe the commands and what it does
2. i had to describe a email header (weird eh ... cisco and email headers ?)
3. i had to configure a print server. i think that guy wanted to see that i am able to pick the crosslink cable rather than the straight version.
did you guys had to do such weird stuff?
ciao | |
| tkelley91 2003-01-09, 11:15 am |
| I think the idea of a "paper cert" is someone who passed the exam on question and answer memorization more than concept memorization(using brain dumps and sims instead of reading, studying and comprehending the materiel). passing the exam with out hands on experience doesn't necesarily make you a "paper cert", it's what you did to pass the exam that will earn you the "paper cert" title. | |
| ghardingjr 2003-01-11, 9:51 pm |
| There are also the people who, like myself, have been fortunate enough to have gone through training classes, who've had live instruction, REAL hands-on experience on a few different classes of routers and switches, read along in class with a Sybex book (Todd Lammle, had study questions, pop quizzes, and online exams.
I've used all of the methods above, read the official Cisco Press 640-607 exam guide (Weldon Owen) from cover to cover, used simulators even down to the point of understanding the difference DCE over DTE affects connectivity, building a network of simulated routers to hope that everything was configured correct, and all the hosts and equipment can communicates with each other. Sure I have also used T/K study guides, and yes, I even have my own 2610 router that has more features than my class environment did. I've practiced on that through my own home lab via both server and laptop. I take my exam on Monday, Jan13, so wish me luck!!
I was working as a Network Administrator for a distribution company, but they decided my studying for certification (MCSE/MCSA/MCDBA and CCNA) was not in the best interest with my position and company. They didn't even want to pay for my certifications, and if they did, they'd only pay a portion for what they thought my certifications were worth, and what the "minimum" certification they would need to replace me. (Talk about screwed up in the head!)
So, I'm unemployed, but am studying my a$$ off to pass this CCNA exam, and I'm using every resource I can to help me through the concepts and material most likely to be on the exam. Even with only having a few month's worth of hands-on Cisco equipment experience and training... if this still makes me a paper-CCNA, I'm okay with that. I look forward to the challenge of a more complex network setup.. because that will only enable me to learn more, and eventually earn more. | |
| babu75 2003-01-12, 1:30 am |
| from your experience and hands-on with cisco routers, i wouldn't say you qualified to be "paper-certified". but again, did you say you used T/K study guides? if you mean testking or troyking, then you definately are one.it doesn't matter how much experience you have in the indstry. if you cheat, then you are "paper-certified". if T/K means no braindumps, then i apologize and please forgive me. | |
| ghardingjr 2003-01-12, 6:26 pm |
| babu...
Yes.. T/K meant Test King, even though (honestly!!) it hasn't and isn't a major source of my study material. A classmate gave it to me about 2 months ago. I read through it once a few weeks ago, and haven't looked back at it since. I'm more interested in learning from the books, because the books will help more than a cheat-sheet.
I already have a good amount of hands-on experience with the physical routers and switches (as posted previously, 5-6 years as network admin, live classroom instruction, plus having my OWN compaq DL380 server, 2610 router and 2924 switch at home). I use them, in addition to simulators for advanced network design topics, plus two different books to read through the concepts, and fill in the gaps where I need further clarification and understanding.
Sure, Test King (and whatever braindump sites you use) is great if all you want is to pass the test just to get certified. That will definitely make you paper certified if you pass the exam. But if you don't actually know how to make something work in the real world, what good is it to use Test King in the first place except for getting a certificate that's meaningless. That's why I use the simulators, and my equipment at home to practice on when I'm reading through my books. I go through the chapters and practice on either the simulator or my 2610 to see how something works, and why it does what it does.
I, personally, have always associated paper-certified with somebody who has taken and passed an exam with no HANDS-ON experience whatsoever, regardless of the source of their study materials. Your post seems to indicate that even WITH experience, using an external source (books, sims, braindumps, etc.) to assist in passing an exam qualifies one as paper-certified.
However, like I also mentioned, if the sources of my study regimen qualify me as being a paper-CCNA, I'm okay with it because I actually have the hands-on experience to back it up. (please don't construe this as "flaming" against you, it's not my intent, just merely my opinion.)
One last question for you, how would you classify SelfTest Software, if it is something that Cisco and other vendors endorse on their website? | |
| babu75 2003-01-13, 11:03 pm |
| getting actual questions before the exam leads to people getting "certified" while they can't perform on the job. now, the use of braindumps hurts us in the long run and i'm personally against it. passing an exam in which i had seen the questions beforehand will definately make me guilty and kill my morale.
as far as Self Test Software is concerned,it is no different from end of chapter quizes. BTW cisco has a practice lab on their site which is similar to the one in the exam.
as for you, i have no doubt you will pass these exams on the first try especially with your experience and mode of study(minus T/K). | |
| ghardingjr 2003-01-14, 7:21 pm |
| Babu...
Yes, passed CCNA 3.0 with a score of 924/1000 yesterday..
Celebrated my passing by going to Sullivan's Steakhouse (dinner was just shy of price of the exam.. for 2 people!)
--Gordon | |
| babu75 2003-01-14, 11:16 pm |
| congrats!!!!!!
wellcome aboard!!!!!!!!! | |
| ghardingjr 2003-01-15, 12:01 am |
| Thanks... yeah, I was a little bit nervous about the exam (who isn't?), but when I finished and then the score popped up -- I was thrilled!!
So, now it's onto Oracle 8i/9i next week for about 2 months, then back to CCNP and SANS.
I would do CCNP first, but I think I will need a more elaborate setup (or otherwise work environment of several routers and switches) to complement my network setup at home. What do you think? | |
| tkelley91 2003-01-15, 4:00 am |
| Congrats! | |
| babu75 2003-01-16, 6:01 pm |
| i would suggest CCDA, since you already have 70% of the knowledge. you need a little more time on the case studies(4cases;1big,2medium,1s
mall). as for the non case questions, it will just be "mouse-clicking" for you. especially taking into consideration the XXX. just another one to get under your belt. | |
| MaulerJ 2003-01-17, 12:09 am |
| BABU75, was it that good or easy of a transition to go to the CCDA, that is what I am doing, just want to be sure, I can finish in 1.5 months | |
| babu75 2003-01-17, 9:25 am |
| since you have a solid understanding of the CCNA concepts, then you can do it a month(at least 20hrs/wk).the case studies like i said are tough but with ciscopress' DCN & CCDA-cert guide you should be good to go.
prepare like it's the hardest exam you will ever take. at least for me it was. Transcender(expensive) or boson tests($39.99 each) should get you ready.
all the best in your exams!!! | |
| ghardingjr 2003-01-17, 10:59 am |
| Are the case studies in simulation format, or drag & drop and Q&A/multiple choice? | |
| babu75 2003-01-17, 8:33 pm |
| the questions on the case studies were multiple choice(for me).7 to 8 paragraphs(essay-type) cases with 8 to 10 questions on each case.
wish you luck!!! | |
| ghardingjr 2003-01-17, 10:07 pm |
| Babu..
It sounds like it's similar to Microsoft's 70-216 exam for Network Infrastructure, aka "the Beast". It wasn't terribly bad, just required some concentration to get through.
(thanks TKelley for the "congrats!") | |
| babu75 2003-01-18, 1:18 pm |
| just started on 210/215.
i can't wait to get to 216.
trying to get both in one shot. | |
| ghardingjr 2003-01-18, 4:23 pm |
| Best of luck!! If you've used Windows for awhile, it'll be a breeze. Just requires a little bit of deeper navigation that you probably don't ordinarily do on a regular basis. For me, the entire 2000 track was pretty easy because of my length of experience on the Windows platform.
I've been using computers since I was in high school. I use both PC's and Mac's, and although I prefer Mac's, PC's are what most companies use, and it's what I'll need to use for Oracle training until their Mac version is available (I understand they've ported the developer tools earlier this year, so it's possible to have the OS X client version in the next year or so).
The 210/215 exams were easy.. but the 216/217 exams required a bit more understanding, so take your time on those.
Gordon |
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