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Home > Archive > CCNA > September 2002 > why all the snide remarks?
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why all the snide remarks?
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| loopbacklady 2002-09-15, 10:03 pm |
| Excuse me, since I'm new here maybe someone can enlighten me as to the crappy attitudes some of the other posters have. (some, not all, I've noticed)
When someone has put in the hours--ALL the hours, it takes to go through the Cisco Academy, push themselves to study some more, make an excellent score on the BIG test, why would you begrudge them their pride in their accomplishment?
Sounds like some are bitter about the experience level, or lack thereof, of the academy students. Doesn't it show alot of initiative, no matter the experience level? | |
| twister166 2002-09-15, 10:24 pm |
| Not to worry too much, most of them just get blow away...
Most of the disagreement or difference of opinions are stemmed from brain dumps which is a no-no here.
Just like the TV, turn it off...  that is what I do... trust me, it makes one lives longer... | |
| loopbacklady 2002-09-16, 7:56 am |
| Good advice. Breath deep. Think happy ccna thoughts...I feel better already! | |
| davidbeecken 2002-09-16, 8:29 am |
| First off, no matter how much you study, there is no reason for braindumps, so anyone who uses them, even if they know the topics inside and out, I will still give them crap. Cheating is cheating
I think other comments stem from the fact that some people dont have any hands on. Some dont even use simulators. I guess I can understand if someone gets mad at people if they never touch a router. The more people who pass the test without working with a router just lowers the test ranking and prestige in my opinion. Of course this is just a basic test, and I understand, why some people dont want to fork over the hundreds of dollars for routers. | |
| loopbacklady 2002-09-16, 9:07 am |
| Sure, you're absolutely right about cheating. You're also right about some of us not able to buy our own router/switch home lab. But academy students do have ample time to configure routers in class. I've spent lots of lunch hours there myself. So we may be inexperienced, but we're not clueless. | |
| davidbeecken 2002-09-16, 9:32 am |
| ok, you might of misunderstood me. For the most part there is no difference if you own the equipment or use it in a class. Hands on is Handson. No one should give anyone crap about how they use routers only in a classroom setting. | |
| Sexy Lexy 2002-09-16, 9:50 am |
| Hands on is hands on at the end of the day. I agree with David that cheating is still cheating.
If you have put yourself through the months of revision and study to find out that someone has passed using other "materials" then you would be and have the right to be annoyed.
A pass is a pass at the end of the day, regardless of score. I know engineers that have been using Cisco products for years and not got 1000 on the exam as it doesn't matter.
If you have the experience, taken the time to learn the material and passed the exam that is worth congratulations.
 | |
| darthfeces 2002-09-16, 11:32 am |
| congrats
work hard and you will be respected
by yourself and others.
everyone has something new to learn
every day.
personally i despise sleazyness
i don't like when someone looks for their problem to be solved ,
rather than solving their problem | |
| loopbacklady 2002-09-16, 3:30 pm |
| I absoulutely agree with that attitude! But when someone sends in this post:
quote:
I passed whit 949, remember that studies always paid, i used Transcender, CiscoPress and Selftestsoftware thank to this forum for help me
and then gets the "are you one of those paper exam takers" remarks, it puts me off. It looks to me like this guy studied his butt off. Am I missing something? Is there some code here that says he used braindumps?
Oh well. I have studying to do. Real, actual, studying.
Good luck to you all. | |
| Luchnia 2002-09-16, 5:35 pm |
| Well, isn't Transcender basically a reworded brain dump? At least the two Transcenders I have are extremely close to the MS test I took in the past. I am not sure there is any difference much, just shuffle the words around some and it is the same thing with a few additional notes to keep them from exactly copying.
Just a thought. After all, if you have a MOC with the answer in it, isn't that the answer? Maybe I am missing something here. I remember before I click "start" on a MS test, I write on a piece of paper all that I can think of. I write down subnetting charts, perms, just about anything that comes to mind and I refer to that as needed to answer the questions.
Peace up! | |
| necrophantasm 2002-09-16, 6:44 pm |
| Well guys, I agree with Lexy and David about dumps. However, I did not have hands on when I got CCNA. It took me 4 tries to get that sucker (and I almost quit working towards IT because of it), and looking back on it I can't believe it was that difficult. When I got my current job the time and effort it took to get that cert really paid off, because no one else at my job knew how to even get into our routers. Due to that exam, and all of the reading and studying it took to pass that test, I had a good foundation to work with in reconfiguring and adding new routers to my network. In no time I was configuring NAT pools, load balancing, and firewall settings. In that respect I really feel that it was good to get the CCNA BEFORE I ever touched a router. Like you guys said, some people can't afford to get routers or to take classes. Those router sims blow (I had one and it didn't help much at the time). If I hadn't worked to get that done though, I would have been just as clueless as the rest of them when it came time to restructure the network and move websites, mail servers, DNS servers, etc... to new IP addresses that the access-lists weren't configured for.
Now as far as the comments made in this forum, I have to agree that some of the old timers ruffle their feathers a little too much and maybe a little too easily at some of the posts. I understand their frustration at braindumps and at people skating through these exams, a lot of us worked damn hard to get the same pieces of paper. However, I think people should be given the benefit of the doubt, and those that did cheat should be told why it is wrong, and how it will hurt their careers instead of just bagging on them about what losers they are. | |
| Bingram 2002-09-16, 6:47 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Luchnia
Well, isn't Transcender basically a reworded brain dump? At least the two Transcenders I have are extremely close to the MS test I took in the past. I am not sure there is any difference much, just shuffle the words around some and it is the same thing with a few additional notes to keep them from exactly copying.
Some have proclaimed that Transcenders are somehow above reproach because they are not just reworded questions. Reality sometimes is a pain to bear. If you go to the Cramsession discussion boards, you'll see a dozen or so "Transposters" as they are called defending the company. All dodge the issue of similar questions. You'll see statements like, "the questions are simply based on test objectives that are known publicly."
Hum... that would be why on the Transcender questions a company named "Fabrikam" will have a similar network layout, company objective, and problem statement as the company named "Contoso" from the MS test?
Ever wonder why Transcenders seeks out certified persons with law backgrounds? | |
| davidbeecken 2002-09-16, 6:58 pm |
| necrophantasm, I use to not respond when people talked about braindumps, then I started responding saying how it was bad, and people sit there and try to justify them, that I just cant stand, and after a few of those, I do start off bashing them and as you put it, calling them loosers. I just think there is no reason to tell them that its wrong, because THEY SHOULD KNOW. I mean, when I was in high school, the first thing they had me do was sign a peaice of paper saying I would not cheat. After that no one should have to tell me not to do it. And I am sure that these people have been told before that they should not cheat. They understand what they are doing.
btw, this post may seem like I am going after you with what I say, but im not, I am just saying how much I hate brain dumps. | |
| Luchnia 2002-09-16, 7:08 pm |
| Yeah, maybe the names were changed to protect the guilty HAHAAAA I make myself laugh. Well, opinions are like arm pits, everybody's got 'em, and most of 'em stink!
I got tired of paying $150 for a glorified brain dump such as Transcenders. I guess, Transcenders could be called a "Glorified Brain Dump" for the most part. I don't know really.
I looked at the dumps a few times, but it seemed to me that there were too many different answers to the same questions and that could confuse someone, not to mention, it would take way too much time to get them straight in order to take a test. I like to go with my best "hunch" and that has gotten me passes on the first time out on all of my exams so far.
I prefer to know my concepts and then just before I get ready to take an exam, I like to use test engines to sync back in to test taking, especially if it has been a while since my last test. It is sort of like "crashing" the material just before test time.
I have been on a continuous study binge and have been testing when my head is "totally mushed" with the material I am getting ready to test on. I went in and took "The Beast" and it did not seem like it was that hard, but then I was floating in Microsoft head crash.
When I did my CCNA, I lived and breathed that stuff until my eyes were bleeding CCNA. I went in to take the exam, came out and did not even realize I had taken it. It was like I was still studying and not really test taking. HAHAHA....talk about Cisco brain fry!
Peace up! | |
| loopbacklady 2002-09-16, 7:11 pm |
| I didn't realize Transcender was a braindump of any kind. I don't know anything about it at all, actually. I assumed it was a self-test program used to bone up AFTER you've gone through your study of objectives.
I must be naive about it all, and I didn't mean to offend anyone. I am working for my ccna by reading and rereading my cisco press material, until the concepts finally sink in. (I just assumed thats what everyone did!) And it ain't easy, that's for sure!!! | |
| davidbeecken 2002-09-16, 7:12 pm |
| I was the same way. The day of the test, I got 4 hours of sleep and I woke up sick. I was driving barely eating a bagle because I was just not hungry but knew I had to get something to eat.
loop, I have heard about them being like dumps but never used them. I am hesitent to say someone is cheating if they use them because I just dont know. I guess i am in the same boat as you. | |
| Luchnia 2002-09-16, 7:29 pm |
| I don't remember what the actual definition is of a braindump, but I think what most people are referring to is copies of the actual test questions and answers.
Most can figure this out anyway, if they just think about what they have studied some. There is a time when it gets nasty though, when test designers set out to test you on material that is not in their resources. MS is one of the best at this game. Their test will have material that is in the next level of test. This is a rather sneaky way to test, but most are wise to it.
Their questions can be most deceptive type to "trap" you and "ensnare" you and really are not designed for learning. You must be wise to what they are looking for in the answer, and always study further than you would think is needed.
This has always helped me pass MS exams. You can look for obivious incorrect answers and eliminate those right off, as well. There are many ways to learn all the techniques needed in test taking.
Peace up! | |
| loopbacklady 2002-09-16, 7:32 pm |
| Great. Lookin' forward to it... Later this week, as a matter of fact.
So, back to the books. Hope I'll be able to find a bagel in my freezer...
Thanks. | |
| Bingram 2002-09-16, 7:56 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Luchnia
I don't remember what the actual definition is of a braindump, but I think what most people are referring to is copies of the actual test questions and answers.
Last week I was looking over the Security + Beta Exam Guide from Tcat Houser and others. It is a 200 or so page discussion of exam objectives. Basicially, "here is the objective, and here is a paragraph, page or so on the important points of that objective." Such a guide lends itself to focusing a person with functional knowledge on a subject towards a success. Better still, the guide was published BEFORE the beta exam was even on the street!
Tcat called his guide a "brain dump" like he used in the Army. To quote him, "We called a brain dump what to study, in other words, a guide." This is the classic brain dump, an explaination of the important points. I think he is 100% on target with his view of test prep material here. It is the terminology that shocks most certified techs.
Unfortunately, the name "brain dump" is associated with what are in essence lists of test questions. Let's call thise "lists" what they are -- cheetsheets.
If one needs examples of test questions to aviod the tricks and pitfalls of the testing agency, then turn to the vendor's prep material (MS Press Readiness Reivews for example). Such references, by definition and public access, are not cheets. | |
| thecomeons 2002-09-17, 4:14 am |
| if transcenders are braindumps, does that mean that microsoft readiness review books are dumps too?
yup, i stay away from sites that have pages and pages of questions and answers. | |
| Luchnia 2002-09-17, 4:36 am |
| This can certainly be tricky issue. If we had a book that had 4+4=8 in it and that appeared on our exam, would that mean that we cheated because we had that info beforehand?
I have thought a lot about this. Here is where the problem could be. If you were to take the information and memorize it without learning anything, you certainly have failed yourself more than anything. Knowing that 4+4=8 and having that in your book before you take the test and getting the question right because you had that question on a test is what--a brain dump?
All the information and tools are there, it is how we use it. I read on one forum that a guy took a MS test and did not even look at the questions. Well, it is obvious what he did. He should know what that is about and he has his reward. Why not study the questions and learn WHY you answer what you answer?
This makes for a most interesting topic. There is so much comprimise with these web forums and test it is unreal. So-called legal companies slightly reward the questions a tad, charge exhuberant prices, and they are "A-OK" to use, but then the others aren't. Yeah, so let us justify that! Sheeesh...who's cheating who? Give me a break...LOL I guess, I better throw my MOCs and all my training materials away, 'cause they do have the answers in them! You just have to hunt a little harder 
Peace! | |
| duanesnyder 2002-09-17, 5:15 pm |
| Ok, I'm lost now, after all this, what did we decide? Are practice tests cheeting, or are they just practice, and letting us look up the answers to what we are unsure of? I study hard every day for the CCNA cert I am after, (no brain dump study, just cisco academy) but I never thought of looking for practice tests and using them as cheeting? I used the practice tests to pass A+ and Net+ , now I find out I'm a cheeter ? OMG.. i didn't know!!! | |
| Luchnia 2002-09-17, 6:06 pm |
| Sometimes it is just a matter of an individual's perception of what is bad, as long as it is not breaking civil laws.
However, when it comes to breaking laws, then there is a problem. The conscience has to come into play at some point, and it becomes a moral obligation to do the right thing. A man should know when to draw the line. What is a compromise to some is not to others. Sites will sell the cheat exams and such, but then the dumps are evil. Seems so ironic, doesn't it?
A man can usually find a way to get around any laws, if he wants to bad enough. Plagerism (sp?) is fifty words duplicated of a tangible work (whick is basically anything recorded properly), if I remember my copyright laws, unless they have changed since I studied them.
Some people have uncanny memory to remember test questions, but for me, I forget them almost immediately. I wonder why that is. I can remember all sorts of things, but rarely do I remember what is on a test after I have completed it. I guess it is good I am pretty sharp about the concepts.
Some people could study test questions and answers and actually learn much doing so, but this is not the case for most that memorize just to pass an exam. I guess, it is what you want to get out of it.
Peace up! | |
| duanesnyder 2002-09-17, 6:55 pm |
| Ok i feel better, I fit somewhere inbetween, I take the practice tests to test what I know on the subject, and if I'm wrong, I then study the subject more. I have never had actual test questions to study, nor do I want any...... and after a test, i forgot what they were too, so I can't really help anyone else cheet..... :-) | |
| loopbacklady 2002-09-17, 8:14 pm |
| ditto. well said. | |
| CruelSpecies 2002-09-18, 3:51 am |
| I found practice test helpful when studying, the way I used them was not only could I answer the question but could I explain why the answer was right. If I couldn't I would check the books again to find out. Some people just learn the answers to the questions and still don't understand them. In a real life situation if you have a problem your PC is not going to give a multiple choice answer to fix it. | |
| duanesnyder 2002-09-18, 3:54 pm |
| Not that anyone asked,, but Ya, I won a Cisco shirt in the first issue of Packet Mag.!! Got it in todays mail !!! ok, now on with the thread........ | |
| guitarjim 2002-09-19, 5:56 am |
| Cisco Academy was good for me. We were able to connect to the lab setup remotely as well as in class. Practice tests are good especially for learning how to read the question correctly so you pick the right answer. Knowing what's being asked is a main key in getting a passing score. You'll know your ready when you can answer questions without looking at the choices of answers. | |
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| I think we put so much emphasis on who gets what cert and how and what they scored.
Who cares?
If you want a decent job. And I think that is the goal of many here.
A.) Finish your degree.
B.) Know your job.
C.) Get the cert that is appropriate for your field.
D.) Maintain a great attitude.
The cert is a starting point, not the end all.
The degree proves you are of acceptable intelligence and can solve complex problems.
And knowing your job is key too. If you have the rest most employers will train you and have their own specific policies anyhow.
I do agree that some of the users on this board would rather try to flame someone than help out.
That happens most everywhere. Just have a thick skin.
Good Luck in all you do. | |
| tknterry 2002-09-20, 12:07 am |
| Its rather ironic that we spend so much time demonizing "braindumps" on these forums while at the same time, Examnotes, the provider of these forums places advertisements on its web site for sites that would be called "braindumps" by most definitions here. Example of Examnotes Sponsored Link:
"ChinaITcertify - Realistic Questions at $39 each!"
But hey, they need the money to keep these forums free for us! Life is full of little ironies, isnt it?
-------Terry | |
| Sexy Lexy 2002-09-20, 2:27 am |
| I think Cobby's remarks are spot on. As long as you pass without cheating the score isn't important.
Share your experience and knowledge with others as we ALL had to start somewhere.
So spare a thought for those who are in the same situation now that we were when we began.
Try to help out and give help and advice to those who want to be in the position where we are today.
Cheaters deserve everything that is coming to them (See jeff's post regarding the subject in the Windows 2000 general forum)
But those with little or no experience are being ignored for the sake of some people on here using the forum to promote how great they really are without helping others at all.
| |
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| Yea, I noticed that too. But Capitalism must move on.
Maybe if all the users here paid a fee or made a small donation there would less adspace for such things.
Maybe there should be a "lab" or "hands on" session for all valuable certs?
This would increase the cost but also the value of that cert.
I went through the Cisco Academy and they do enforce labs for every phase of Cisco instruction.
Most colleges that teach Microsoft do the same.
But hey either you can do your job or not. So if you Bs'd your way through the test then you will get found out sooner THAN later.
I also would like to assert the notion that the cert game is big bucks for many individuals, and NO not the people who seek the certs.
I feel certs with labs like the CCIE and the RHCE actually care about YOU knowing the product whereas Microsoft is happy to take your money regardless of your skill level.
It is up to you at a later date to prove your value to a company. I thought the cert would do that.
I heard the other day MCSE stands for "must consult someone else".
That upsets me.
I feel if MS and others wanted dump sites who steal their content and violate the policies gone they would be. They do have the means to do so.
But guess what? Having those sites increase the amount of folks who sit exams and open a whole new market for them.
Maybe soon MS will open their own "dump site".
Or maybe that would challenge the anti-trust issue.
Can we really dump on someone for doing everything they could to succeed and provide for themselves? When the very companies that
are the supposed victims profit the most?
We are the victims and not unlike true victim behavior we fight amongst ourselves.
Welcome to the new proletariat group!
What say you Terry? | |
| tknterry 2002-09-20, 10:19 am |
| Whoa Cobby, long post (by my standards ! You made some very relevant observations Cobby. However I dont get upset by all this stuff. Its really not worth getting stressed out about. Thanks for the reply. | |
| vschristopher 2002-09-20, 2:20 pm |
| David and other said it right
Hands on on real routers are a necessity , u know why ppl regards CCNA so diffcult ? cos they dont have any hands on, i ahve practised on routers for 2 weeks and i know evcery command in the CCNA syllabus, so routers are a must for CCNA , SIMS are ok but they dont give all the freedom a router does. | |
| vholman 2002-09-23, 1:33 pm |
| Loopback Lady, I am a Cisco Network Academy Grad. | |
| Rockin Rod 2002-09-24, 10:39 am |
| Since everyone is wasting soooo much time on this stupid subject, let me add to the pile.
If Transcenders are immorral, just what would you call the test engine provided by Cisco with their Cisco Press books? Transcenders don't have questions that are similar to test questions, in my opinion, and I don't like them.
Yes, some of the study guides out there are illegal, just check out Google with the name of the company for news, and you will get some hits. That is why the worst offenders are often registered as a compny overseas. Try a whois lookup to check for yourself. Troytecs offices were recently raided by the FBI as a result of a criminal complaint on behalf of MS, so MS doesn't take this lightly either.
Cisco's own policy is very strict on braindumps. Type in MS braindumps on your favorite search engine, and you will get tons of hits for non-commercial, post-your-own- braindump-here type sites. Then try this for Cisco---Zero. Cisco prosicuted the hell out of this about two years ago, and it does not exist on a non-commercial level.
What I believe some people need help with is the wording of the questions. I have never seen a certification test with less than 10 word questions, and several MS test with 100+ word questions. So the tests are not to prove absolute knowledge, but how you can strip the BS and get to the root question. That can be very daunting to first time cert test takers, or people who don't take test well. So it is up to you, this is still a free society.
The really funny thing is, all the commercial braindump type materials I have seen have so many errors, it will make you laugh out loud if you know the real answer. This whole certification thing is just a very large, very lucrative cash cow for the companies that administer it.
And just so I don't get bashed too much later....I attended Cisco University for 7 semesters, my instructor helped write the online curriculum for Cisco, is a private consultant to Cisco, and a CCIE. Personally I have MCSE+I, only one score below 920.
Thanks for reading this rant!
Rod | |
| tlwilkins2 2002-09-25, 10:37 pm |
| Been working with Microsoft operating systems since DOS and Windows 3.0. MCP for about 5 years now. Was 1 test short of my MCSE NT4, took the accelerated the last week of December 2001, and now am 2 tests short of MCSE for 2000. CCNA a little over a year ago. Currently working on IP Telephony Specialization for Cisco and the 218 exam which will get me MCSA and 1 test maining on MCSE. Ok, so that's the status.
I've gotten the majority of my jobs simply by proving I could do the work. Most of the interviews were filled with some pretty indepth technnical questions, so simply knowing test material really didn't apply. I had to come up with real-world solutions on the fly.
And YEP, I've used brain dumps. They're a valuable tool if used properly. Never, Never rely on the answers included with a brain dump. The questions, generally speaking, are a good guide of what to expect on the test. You can spend hours upon hours reading Microsoft's Readiness Review material and taking their exams and often they won't even come close to the real thing. I look at the brain dumps first to narrow my focus, then I pick up one of those really fat study guides (Sybex is good, but I prefer Syngress) and read my little heart out on any topic where I feel I'm lacking. Then I find myself some decent, reasonably priced practice software (usually included with the study guide) and take a practice test. Read and test again, etc... Now remember, I've had ample opportunity for significant hands-on (worked in one of the largest NT 4.0 installations in the world a few years back). I passed the tests and I knew the material when I was done. BUT...I started each study cycle with a quick glance at the brain dumps.
Like children in kindergarten, we all learn in different ways. That paper MCSE will start most often in an entry level position somewhere and pay their dues, just like the person with lots of experience and no paper to prove it. At some point they will both level up and everything will come out in the wash. (I can testify to that - I went into a very respected position paid well above several inexperienced MCSE's and I din't even have my MCP at the time and no college degree either. I had experience and skills.)
Now I'm plugging away at the 2000 cert and don't have the opportunities for hands on that I did with 4.0. Guess what? It's hard, and I need all the help I can get.
What if we concerned ourselves more with helping each other instead of wasting so much time and energy being concerned with how each other got to our current place in the food chain. | |
| Luchnia 2002-09-26, 6:59 am |
| Well put and I do agree. Working together will accomplish the end result.
Many argue this point and that about the dumps, various study materials, etc., but the fact is that if you aren't using your skills daily they all dry up and have to be reviewed again to bring to memory.
I have heard accomplished techs echo this point. If a man doesn't exercise a muscle, what happens to it? What you don't use, you lose, or at least, it gets much weaker with time.
Seeing you have experience you shed a great deal of light on this subject. I don't have many years of experience, about 3 at most. But I have a great deal of wisdom acquired over the years, and it has never failed me in knowing how to apply knowledge rightly and discerning who is for real and who isn't. Yes, we all do learn in different ways.
I admire a man or woman who is willing to share their knowledge and experiences to help others, a sign of true maturity and unselfishness.
I appreciate your post tlwilkins2.
Peace | |
| tlwilkins2 2002-09-26, 10:16 pm |
| Wow, thanks Luchnia.
Now if we can all just start fresh from this point and get down to the business of learning, we'll all be putting Peace and little smilies at the ends of our posts!
:-) |
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