General Discussion - off topic but interesting

Author

off topic but interesting

me? I dunno...

2004-07-15, 11:04 am

quote:
1954 - Egypt cracks Israeli Military Intelligence cell of
Egyptian Jews who firebombed sites frequented by Westerners to embarrass Cairo and stop it nationalising the Suez Canal.
(Israeli)Defence Minister Pinhas Lavon quits, though denies authorising
plot.

Pinhas Lavon

the above information does raise the question of who really are the experts at internal terrorism?

and what are they doing in the u.s.?
hmmn... lets see...'evangelical christian fundamentalism'?

enforcer

2004-07-15, 11:49 am

And which country doesn't have spies operating in almost every other country in some form?

Their only mistake was getting caught.

freak

2004-07-15, 12:00 pm

quote:
Originally posted by enforcer
Their only mistake was getting caught.

say that to the guys who sunk the greenpeace boat

me? I dunno...

2004-07-15, 12:12 pm

quote:
Their only mistake was getting caught.

good point

of course, that still doesnt undermine my point, that the actions of various 'terrorist' organizations and the actions of other 'legitimate' states, are on many occasions, one and the same.

for cnn and the bulk of american media to ignore this story, simply because it would embarass israel, is to attempt to hide the truth behind the propaganda. that truth being that the israeli's are committing, and have for very long time, been guilty of the very same activities as those who are being reviled by bush et al, as 'enemies of freedom'.

the recent ruling by the highest court in the world clearly acknowledges that israel is currently in virtually the same position occupying palestine as saddam was with his troops occupying kuwait.

so where is the indignation, outrage and firepower?

also, having operatives in another country is one thing... attempting to hide behind the identity of that country is another.

there is no doubt that when caught committing some vile and heinous crime somewhere in the world, that these israeli's were intent on having the blame for their actions placed on new zealand instead of israel. if thats not a crime, its still very deceitful and dishonest and most certainly constitutes a black mark against israel.

enforcer

2004-07-15, 1:02 pm

quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...

there is no doubt that when caught committing some vile and heinous crime somewhere in the world, that these israeli's were intent on having the blame for their actions placed on new zealand instead of israel. if thats not a crime, its still very deceitful and dishonest and most certainly constitutes a black mark against israel.

which brings us back to the first statement I made. For Israel, read most other countries. Maybe the extent and vigour or ruthlessness may not be the same, but most up up to something somewhere in other peoples name.

me? I dunno...

2004-07-15, 2:19 pm

quote:
if thats not a crime, its still very deceitful and dishonest and most certainly constitutes a black mark against israel.

oh, right... it is a crime.

given the circumstances, one cant help but wonder if their arent traitors involved in the judicial system of new zealand, people who have attempted to minimize the sentences handed down in order to marginalize the extent of the crime and minimize the impact on israel.

would that not be a crime of treason against the host country? it certainly does raise the issue of sabotage of democracies in favour of religious/political agenda's, in effect treason against ones home country in favour of some foreign state, in this case israel.

perhaps the western world should expand its focus on internal terrorism to include zionist organizations such as bnai brith. there is no doubt that they attempt to induce a bias in favour of israel regardless of the expense to whatever host country they are attempting to internally manipulate.

for instance the plunging of america into debt in order to wage war, or the subsidizing of the israeli economy etc strengthen israel's place in the middle east, but what responsiblity is that of the american people? are they simply slaves of israel? or are they the victims of internal sabotage?

I know you have heard it before, but adolf hitler utilized exactly the same strategy, paricularly in austria and chzechoslovakia. a strategy designed to weaken resistance to a foreign power from within a sovereign state... internal treason and sabotage.

so why exactly is the u.s. running a half trillion dollar deficit?

KiwiPete

2004-07-15, 3:30 pm

As the (almost) lone Kiwi voice in here, I must reply to this one.

We're not a very happy country at the moment. Being a small country of 4 million people (and 70 million sheep), we're often seen as an easy touch when it comes to crime.

That's more annoying than the actual crime itself.
It's the same attitude that the French Government displayed when they sent Government agents down here to blow up the Greenpeace boat the Rainbow Warrior.
Sorry, Freak, but for once I have to disagree with you on that point.
Arrogant bastards murdered a guy (a greenie, so no big loss

) on that boat.
Instead of jail, they got sent on a "holiday" on a South Pacific attoll.
Not this time.

They'll make lots of new Kiwi friends in jail.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tattoos/gallery/images/photos/maori_gang.jpg

I hope they drop the soap.

Oh, and did you pick up on this bit?
"...assuming the identity of a wheelchair-bound cerebral palsy victim."

Charming. They offered $100,000 to the poor bugger's family, but they didn't want their money. It's gone to the Cerebal Palsy Foundation instead.

me? I dunno...

2004-07-16, 10:30 am

quote:
Maybe the extent and vigour or ruthlessness may not be the same,

yes it is true that most countries arent involved to the extent that the israeli's are, but how does that let israel of the hook? they are involved in a plainly visible and ongoing act of ethnic cleansing. is their a more flagrant violation of humanity that exists?

the israeli's lunge at the opportunity to bring up the holocaust as a vehicle for sympathy yet they engage in the same activity. this attempt to operate behind the shield of a new zealand identity is simply part of that process. am I correct in assuming that you support israel's actions in this matter?

you claim that every county in the world has agents trying to cloak themselves in another countries identity for the purpose of shielding the host country, are you saying that if every other country in the world engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide, that it would be okay?

frankly, I doubt that your statement is accurate. there are very few nations in the world today who have the aggressive, beligerent, and contemptuous attitude that is routinely demonstrated by ariel sharon's israel. it may be routine for intelligence agents to operate in other countries but I think this sort of crime is not the order of the day, but one reserved for the lowest of the low, those who would be criminals in any country in the world. I think its more than just a coincidence that so many of them seem to work for ariel sharon.

far as the sentence goes, I think they should have gotten 10-20 years instead of 6 months. How many foreigners, operating under even the most slightly suspect conditions, have been locked away by the u.s. or israel, and for extended or indefinite terms?

freak

2004-07-16, 10:50 am

quote:
aggressive, beligerent, and contemptuous attitude that is routinely demonstrated by ariel sharon's israel.

Which only has one equal: your aggressive, belligerent, and contemptuous attitude that you routinely demonstrate against Ariel Sharon's Israel

I'll tell you this as well: I can't wait to see the day when Arabs and Jews finally understand that killing each other is akin to fratricide. Though I am not naive enought to think that I will see that day in my lifetime - and God is my witness that I hope with all my heart that this last comment is wrong.

Oh, and another thing: when your country is in permanent war alert mode for the past x amount of years, and you are litterally surrounded by hostile countries who want nothing more than to see you eradicated, what do you think becomes acceptable in your mind in terms of measures that you deem needed to survive?

enforcer

2004-07-16, 11:18 am

quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
yes it is true that most countries arent involved to the extent that the israeli's are, but how does that let israel of the hook?

Didn't say it did.

quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
the israeli's lunge at the opportunity to bring up the holocaust as a vehicle for sympathy yet they engage in the same activity. this attempt to operate behind the shield of a new zealand identity is simply part of that process. am I correct in assuming that you support israel's actions in this matter?

NO!

quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
you claim that every county in the world has agents trying to cloak themselves in another countries identity for the purpose of shielding the host country, are you saying that if every other country in the world engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide, that it would be okay?

Never said or claimed that it was Okay, just making an observation.

me? I dunno...

2004-07-16, 11:35 am

quote:
Which only has one equal: your aggressive, belligerent, and contemptuous attitude that you routinely demonstrate against Ariel Sharon's Israel

thank you

quote:
what do you think becomes acceptable in your mind in terms of measures that you deem needed to survive?

I think you hit the nail on the head. in a non secular state it is a simple matter to generate fanatical fervor based on righteousness. people can and are lead to believe the most outrageous claims, the most despicable acts are legitimized. currently most israeli's still see themselves as the victim in spite of the clear and contrary reality. israel needs to be transformed into a secular state. the idea that there should be nationstates reserved for particular religions is ludicrous, it only sets the stage for more war.

quote:
I'll tell you this as well: I can't wait to see the day when Arabs and Jews finally understand that killing each other is akin to fratricide.

I agree.

I would argue at this point, the basis for arab response, though muted by military weakness, would most certainly diminish if israel were to become secular. yes there are problems with muslim fundamentalism but they are not the greatest threat to the world at this point, and you cannot expect that muslim fundamentalism to wane in the face of jewish expansionism.

I dont believe any reasonable assesment would conclude that the sharon government has done anything but exascerbate the problem.

I believe the first step in moving toward a solution is the realization by the israeli's that the idea of a jewish state is not one bit better than the idea of a muslim state and will cause no less trouble.

functional democracy needs to operate outside of religion, otherwise it becomes nothing more than mob rule. it is the sharon's and bush's of the world who are moving us in exactly the opposite direction, strenghtening the grip of religion on the power structure of government in the 'democracies' that they 'represent'.

in canada, anyone who takes even the most slightly critical view of israel is immediately and viciously attacked by various jewish groups. there are what are called 'anti-hate' laws that are routinely used to squelch public debate of these sort of issues. how can the problem ever be identified on a large scale when there exists so many barriers to identifying it. at the same time that critical examination is impeded, the privately owned and publicly avowed zionist media (yes, they have literally and publicly proclaimed themselves to be pro zionist in ALL things) provides every opportunity for people to make the argument that religious (zionist) control of (ours and all) government is a good thing.

freak

2004-07-16, 11:38 am

do you really believe what you wrote in this thread? Because I find it hard to understand you and where you are coming from. Please understand that I am not judging, just trying to better understand where you are coming from on this, and what your sources of information are. Clearly, you are very passionate on the subject. And maybe even more clearly, we do not agree on much on this matter.

Have you ever lived in the Middle East? Do you have first hand experience of what life is over there? Just curious

me? I dunno...

2004-07-16, 12:01 pm

quote:
Have you ever lived in the Middle East?

how is that a prerequisite for understanding whats going on?

you must realize that there are many outside america who have a far greater understanding of what america is all about than those on the 'inside', simply by virtue of the diminished media filtering outside its borders.

how many americans even know about these israeli spies in new zealand? I suspect that cnn and most other mainstream american media ignoring the story has resulted in most americans not even knowing about it.

I wonder how many israeli newspapers carried the story?

I wonder how many palestinian newspapers still exist to tell the story?

given that so many americans, or for that matter canadians, dont understand whats going on in their own country, I ask, having lived in the middle east, do you understand whats going on there?

me? I dunno...

2004-07-16, 12:03 pm

quote:
Never said or claimed that it was Okay, just making an observation.

okay, my mistake

freak

2004-07-16, 12:07 pm

quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
how is that a prerequisite for understanding whats going on?

you must realize that there are many outside america who have a far greater understanding of what america is all about than those on the 'inside', simply by virtue of the diminished media filtering outside its borders.

how many americans even know about these israeli spies in new zealand? I suspect that cnn and most other mainstream american media ignoring the story has resulted in most americans not even knowing about it.

I wonder how many israeli newspapers carried the story?

I wonder how many palestinian newspapers still exist to tell the story?

given that so many americans, or for that matter canadians, dont understand whats going on in their own country, I ask, having lived in the middle east, do you understand whats going on there?

It was a simple question, one that you didn't answer other than by refusing to answer it.

And yes, having lived there does make a difference in my understanding of the situation over there, my understanding of the cultures involved, of the actual people involved, etc...

me? I dunno...

2004-07-16, 12:24 pm

my point has throughout been thus...

israel will never cease and decist in the absence of pressure from the western world.

that pressure will never come to bear while stories like this are allowed to be swept under the rug.

if the media highlights every arab sin and hides every jewish sin, does that mean the arabs are evil and the jews are good?

unfortunately that is proving to be the case in the minds of many of the people who live here, most of whom have never been there.

freak

2004-07-16, 12:34 pm

Fair enough, it's a free world, and you're entitled to your opinion and to sharing it

me? I dunno...

2004-07-16, 12:39 pm

quote:
Fair enough, it's a free world, and you're entitled to your opinion and to sharing it

great!

btw, how do you see it? we must have some common ground somewhere in this.

freak

2004-07-16, 1:41 pm

I am equally fed up with both sides, and I feel for both sides. I don't think there is any way this is going to be solved until both sides decide to act like adults, as opposed to yelling at each other without trying to understand what the other one is saying and why they are saying it.

I do believe that Israel has an inherent right to defend itself, and that they should excercise this right as they see fit as a sovereign nation.

I do understand the plight of the Palestinians who feel like they were stolen their land.

I do not condone people killing in the supposed name of religion, be they on a Holy Inquisition kick or on a Jihad.

And I am sick and tired of Al Jazeera, which in my mind is nothing more than an answer to Fox "News"...

enforcer

2004-07-16, 2:46 pm

It's very much like a playground fight between two kids. What it needs is for someone to bang their heads together and get them to shake hands and find some common ground to agree on.

and next week I'll solve the question to life, the universe and everything else.

freak

2004-07-16, 2:50 pm

enforcer, you rock

me? I dunno...

2004-07-16, 3:00 pm

quote:
and next week I'll solve the question to life, the universe and everything else.

that reminds me of a restaraunt, maybe we should go for coffee?

quote:
I do believe that Israel has an inherent right to defend itself, and that they should excercise this right as they see fit as a sovereign nation.

I agree, however it is a bit frustrating that I have to include "within its own borders". It should go without saying that occupation and annexation are anything but defensive postures, the icj and an overwhelming majority at the u.n. have agreed on this.

quote:
And I am sick and tired of Al Jazeera, which in my mind is nothing more than an answer to Fox "News"...

I read aljazeera/english on a daily basis, as I read cnn, cbc, and others. I disagree with claims of illegitimacy inferred upon it, evidently so does the crtc

actually I never realized how many enemies they had made

sandy7000

2004-07-19, 12:22 am

Wow, deep stuff. I haven't considered Israel thoughtfully for about 5 years. Went there on a trip 2 wks b4 Yitzak Rabin was murdered.

One thing to note; hundreds of thousands of American, German, French & Russian Jews emigrated to Israel (among other nationalities) after WW2's Nazi pograms. While I was there, they were trying to settle in new Ethiopian Jews fleeing persecution. Also while I was there, archeologists were daily discovering more proof confirming the existence of King David & other Bible figures.

Unfortunately, you're correct in the amount of racism Israelis are displaying towards Arabs. Just because the land belonged to Israel 2000 years ago doesn't give them the right to usurp the residents that came in after many Jews emigrated to other countries.

No easy answers in any direction.

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