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Home > Archive > General Discussion > May 2004 > time to pull out and nuke what's left
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time to pull out and nuke what's left
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| darthfeces 2004-05-11, 6:08 pm |
| http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4953015/
i'll bet that'll get some attension.
no really this is becoming friggin viet-nam
time to get out and let these people fend for themselves. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-11, 7:19 pm |
| I'm all for making it the biggest parking lot in the middle east. | |
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| HOOLIGAN 2004-05-11, 10:49 pm |
| What ever happened to liberting the poor oppressed masses under Saddam?
You can't force a western style democracy on an Arab tribal mentality.
America should have put its money and efforts into fighting terrorists. Instead we created more by letting 'trailer-trash' troops sodomise Iraqi prisoners with glow sticks.
Sorry,but Bush and co Fcuked up, through their own incompetance.
If you sense a little outrage at my post, its because of the pictures of the dead US troops I see on my TV barely out of highschool. What a waste. | |
| Freddy 2004-05-11, 11:03 pm |
| Arabs are not known for being particularly civilized. This experiment in bringing civilization to a backwards and barbaric people is not without costs both economic and human. If we anihilate the Iraquis then we might just as well keep on going and wipe out the rest of them too. Otherwise the terrorism will just continue until we do.
Add one more vote to an even larger parking lot scenario... | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-11, 11:35 pm |
| jerusalem first, land one right on the temple mount. | |
| bearing 2004-05-12, 4:11 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by HOOLIGAN
What ever happened to liberting the poor oppressed masses under Saddam?
You can't force a western style democracy on an Arab tribal mentality.
America should have put its money and efforts into fighting terrorists. Instead we created more by letting 'trailer-trash' troops sodomise Iraqi prisoners with glow sticks.
Sorry,but Bush and co Fcuked up, through their own incompetance.
If you sense a little outrage at my post, its because of the pictures of the dead US troops I see on my TV barely out of highschool. What a waste.
A US spokesman(didn't catch his name) was on TV last night rightly condeming the Beheading of a US Telecomms Engineer by his captors. At the end of the sytatement he said "We will win in Iraq", that last bit confused me that as I could have sworn we were told we were going there to liberate the Iraqi people, perhaps it was a slip of the tongue on his part and really meant to say "We will deliver a peaceful Iraq to it's people". Then again perhaps I'm just a cynic. | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-12, 5:01 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by bearing
A US spokesman(didn't catch his name) was on TV last night rightly condeming the Beheading of a US Telecomms Engineer by his captors. At the end of the sytatement he said "We will win in Iraq", that last bit confused me that as I could have sworn we were told we were going there to liberate the Iraqi people, perhaps it was a slip of the tongue on his part and really meant to say "We will deliver a peaceful Iraq to it's people". Then again perhaps I'm just a cynic.
I guess that is the rub mate. Your statement above confuses me. I try to figure out the culture of others even if it does not agree with my own.
Americans tend to put lots of inappropriate things into game analogies. Unfortunately we also tend to forget that someone may have no idea what the original stated task was and go on like that the conversation occured 5 minutes ago. That is the culture right or wrong. If the task is what we said it was, a peaceful democratic Iraq run by its people AND that is what happens then we indeed have won. If you believe that is not our task then you come to conclusions like it must have been a slip of the tongue. The gent meant what he said and most Americans understood it even it they do not agree with it.
A "win" is simply a term of success. Saving a life, having a baby, winning a war, liberating a people, passing a test, taking a dump after a previous plate of stuffed hot peppers, completing a work day are all events where one might say "how do we win this" or "we will win this". "Win" is not hard to understand, what is hard to understand are all the ways that Americans use the word "f--k". Verb, adjective, noun, pronoun etc. New Yorkers are the experts in that area  | |
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| HOOLIGAN 2004-05-12, 7:39 am |
| Be prepared. For there is much worse to come. I hope bush makes good on his promise to bring these 'animals' to justice. ( Like he did with the 'animals' in Falooja ). Hollow words from a draft dodger. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-12, 10:00 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
jerusalem first, land one right on the temple mount.
And wipe out the Dome of the Rock? Shame on you...I thought you were strictly pro-Arab/Muslim. | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-12, 10:17 am |
| whats wrong with you people? you all started the war, did you think it would be pretty??? grow up.
video is available at ogrish, btw | |
| carpediumtoday 2004-05-12, 10:23 am |
| Bush not dodge draft, you thinking of Clinton. Besides, Bush not responsible for deaths, the Iraqi freedom resistance is. That like saying it is police fault because you house got robbed. Everyone like to blame Bush, but who is the one who murdered? Did Bush fly plane into trade center? Did Bush hold knife and cut off head of American? No. He not do that. You guys not know what it like to come from a oppressed nation. You American always have it good, and I glad for you. But not everyone have it so good. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-12, 10:43 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by bsdboy
whats wrong with you people? you all started the war, did you think it would be pretty???
Nope, war isn't pretty. That's why I advocate wiping every city/town/village off the face of the earth that's harboring freedom fighters, terrorists, or whatever you want to call them. Pave it over, and we'll put a giant WalMart in the center. That'll get their economy going... | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-12, 11:43 am |
| http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exe...19F952F0D25.htm
quote:
Bush not responsible for deaths, the Iraqi freedom resistance is.
bush is not responsible, he is never responsible, none of his government are responsible, next to ariel sharon's gang, the bush gang is the most irresponsible gang in the world. Given the glaring lack of failure acknowledgement on the part of the bush administration, one would think they have never made a mistake.
"bring em on!!!"
bush and rumsfeld know that their friends are safe, its only the 'little' people whose heads will roll... | |
| Jesus Christ 2004-05-12, 11:48 am |
| I agree with those that state that we should nuke the Middle East. We have had nuclear weapons for over 50 years now, and all of the money that we spend on them is just going down the toilet. I say its time that we stop wasting out money and put these weapons to use. America is detined to conquer the world and once we have the Middle East firmly in our grasp, the rest of the world will have no choice but to serve us like the slaves that they were destined to be. So lets cut the crap and drop the Big One. | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-12, 11:58 am |
| quote:
And wipe out the Dome of the Rock?
fcuk them too. unlike you, I realize that to wipe that area clean is to cauterize the festering sore that is the middle east. I dont want to hear from those fcuks ever again, arab or jew.
by taking away the prize they all want, and that is most sought by religious fanatics in the west, this can be over very soon.
america will loose in iraq, such is life. you can remove a malignant regime, but you cannot enslave a proud people. you may put shit soaked bags around their heads and militarily terrorize them but that just strengthens their resolve to kill you the first chance they get. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-12, 12:09 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
fcuk them too. unlike you, I realize that to wipe that area clean is to cauterize the festering sore that is the middle east. I dont want to hear from those fcuks ever again, arab or jew.
by taking away the prize they all want, and that is most sought by religious fanatics in the west, this can be over very soon.
That question I directed at you was purely sarcastic, Homer. Now go back to your sandbox and play nice... | |
| Freddy 2004-05-12, 12:27 pm |
| You would think this was a serious thread or something... | |
| curiousgeorge 2004-05-12, 1:17 pm |
| Isn't it sad that Bush justified this war by claiming that Iraq was an "imminent threat" to America. And now that we have killed, tortured, raped, and humiliated prisoners of war, Iraq has become an imminent threat to America.
Bush said we were going after Saddam because of all of the war crimes he committed. Bush has now committed more war crimes than Saddam.
He claimed the moral high ground by stating America would end the torture and shut down the rape rooms. He didn't shut them down. He just gets to take credit for it.
And he justifies killing tens of thousands of Iraqis to get rid of the dictator who was killing tens of thousands of Iraqis.
hmmm... Bush has become the very thing that he wanted to kill.
How anyone can support that hillbilly is beyond my understanding. | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-12, 1:18 pm |
| quote:
That question I directed at you was purely sarcastic, Homer
hmmn... an area where we dont even totally disagree and you launch a personal attack... dont worry, I'm not coming to cut your head off 
meanwhile the israeli army continues its murderous rampage in gaza, looking for the bodies of 6 dead nazis who should never have been there in the first place, and probably deserved what they got. | |
| bearing 2004-05-12, 1:27 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by azimuth40
I guess that is the rub mate. Your statement above confuses me. I try to figure out the culture of others even if it does not agree with my own.
Americans tend to put lots of inappropriate things into game analogies. Unfortunately we also tend to forget that someone may have no idea what the original stated task was and go on like that the conversation occured 5 minutes ago. That is the culture right or wrong. If the task is what we said it was, a peaceful democratic Iraq run by its people AND that is what happens then we indeed have won. If you believe that is not our task then you come to conclusions like it must have been a slip of the tongue. The gent meant what he said and most Americans understood it even it they do not agree with it.
A "win" is simply a term of success. Saving a life, having a baby, winning a war, liberating a people, passing a test, taking a dump after a previous plate of stuffed hot peppers, completing a work day are all events where one might say "how do we win this" or "we will win this". "Win" is not hard to understand, what is hard to understand are all the ways that Americans use the word "f--k". Verb, adjective, noun, pronoun etc. New Yorkers are the experts in that area
Valid point Reg, I guess the old chesnut "Two Countries seperated by a common language" comes to mind here. I suppose the statement he made was meant for the American people and not for Brits, who's interpretation of 'win' may be different to those in the US.
Mind you being a Leeds fan my interpretation of 'Win' is far removed from most people, even over here. I'm more in tune with the word lose these days.  | |
| darthfeces 2004-05-12, 2:49 pm |
| wow .....
what the hell were they thinking sending reservists to run a prison. should have been real soldiers .... not auto mechanics and people who need help with college tuition.
yes, let's leave so the only thing left for them to do will be to chop each other's head off while trying to grasp the same power saddam had.  | |
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| darthfeces 2004-05-12, 3:48 pm |
| it seem's nick berg's family is pissed at the bush administration
Family accuses U.S. government
Berg's brother David on Wednesday told reporters outside his family's house that the U.S. position is false. He said the family received e-mails from Berg after his release in which he made clear he had been held by U.S. forces.
In an interview with Boston radio station WBUR on Tuesday, Berg's father, Michael, said: "I still hold (Rumsfeld) responsible because if they had let him ago after a more reasonable amount of time or if they had given him access to lawyers we could have gotten him out of there before the hostilities escalated.
"That's really what cost my son his life was the fact that the U.S. government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights and released him when they were good and ready."
The interviewer asked, "Do you really blame Donald Rumsfeld for your son's death? And will you do anything in addition to that lawsuit you had filed?"
Michael Berg responded, "It goes further then Donald Rumsfeld. It's the whole Patriot Act, it's the whole feeling of this country that rights don't matter anymore because there are terrorists about.
"Well, in my opinion 'terrorist' is just another word like 'communist' or 'witch' and it's a witch hunt, and this whole administration is just representing something that is not America, not the America I grew up in." | |
| carpediumtoday 2004-05-12, 4:42 pm |
| It sound like some of you want to rule the world, like Hitler did and it sounds like some of you want to kill all the innocent in the Middle East, like Saddam. So, now Bush try to help and kill terrorist and bring them to justice. Bush not responsible for soldiers mistakes, they are going to courtmarshall. Bush the only one with balls to stand up to bully. We dont need to bow down to world government, we control our own sovernty here, is that not what this nation was built for, and Im not from this nation and I know that. But to blow away Middle East is like saying you are only one 'privilaged' to live. Where I am from, there are many people good, innocent, and want freedom like we have in America. You dont know, you never been held hostage like that. It easy to give opinion when you are in the stands watching the football game, but when on the field, it different story. You guys, I love you all, but everyone deserves to be free. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-12, 4:48 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by carpediumtoday
It easy to give opinion when you are in the stands watching the football game, but when on the field, it different story.
I'm a 20 year veteran of the "field", so my opinion is based on experience. We either get hard on them or leave, we need to quit fcuking around with them. | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-12, 5:27 pm |
| quote:
what the hell were they thinking sending reservists to run a prison. should have been real soldiers
and what the hell are they doing using private mercenaries to conduct interogations? rumsfeld may be able to mumble the words to himself enough times to believe them but the bottom line is this... america is increasingly relying on a publicly funded private army to get around the rules of human decency. call them civilian contractors all you want, they are still highly trained soldiers, only now they operate outside of the geneva conventions and international or any other law... just like the nazi ss.
all thanks to gw and crew.
carpendiumwhatever... drop the phony accent eh? | |
| HOOLIGAN 2004-05-12, 6:15 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by bsdboy
whats wrong with you people? you all started the war, did you think it would be pretty??? grow up.
Sorry, I signed up for the Hollywood version. | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-12, 8:03 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
I'm a 20 year veteran of the "field", so my opinion is based on experience. We either get hard on them or leave, we need to quit fcuking around with them.
Ya, u give them democracy whether they want it or not, hehe! | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-12, 9:07 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
. call them civilian contractors all you want, they are still highly trained soldiers, only now they operate outside of the geneva conventions and international or any other law... just like the nazi ss.
all thanks to gw and crew.
Now Now you know I have a problem when you get on that nazi bent, its something best left in the past. Besides they were the policemen with official power. I think you are talking about the brown shirts who were cilivans with no official power.
The contractors seem to come from all parts of the world not just the U.S. Maybe the U.N. should deputize them and let the coalition leave. They would probably bring in better protective weapons that we give to our lot. There was a movie once where the governments of the world were corporations. Contractors seem to be the first step in that direction. Stuck in a country? Call roto-warrior despot service we will send your problems down the drain. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2004-05-12, 9:51 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
I'm a 20 year veteran of the "field", so my opinion is based on experience. We either get hard on them or leave, we need to quit fcuking around with them.
Yes, but did you ever feel like shoving a glow stick up someones arse? | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-13, 1:51 am |
| quote:
Yes, but did you ever feel like shoving a glow stick up someones arse?
careful, I think that ones got a tendency for rectal beligerence.
quote:
Maybe the U.N. should deputize them and let the coalition leave. They would probably bring in better protective weapons that we give to our lot. There was a movie once where the governments of the world were corporations
minor problem being of course that it relies on an abandonment of democracy and the embrace of some form of global corporate communism/totalitarianism.
quote:
Now Now you know I have a problem when you get on that nazi bent, its something best left in the past
I think you must be promoting a marginalization of the unacceptable nature of nazi conduct in order to facilitate its reintroduction into modern life.
bush rumsfeld et al are the still the greatest threat to democracy and freedom in the world. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-13, 7:48 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by bsdboy
Ya, u give them democracy whether they want it or not, hehe!
I will refrain from commenting on Germany's fascist past, and present democracy (thanks to the U.S. and U.K.)....oops, I've said too much already. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-13, 7:59 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by HOOLIGAN
Yes, but did you ever feel like shoving a glow stick up someones arse?
Everyone has had violent "feelings", it's when feelings become actions that the problem arises. I don't condone the actions of those idiots in that prison camp, matter of fact it sickens me. But if you compare the entire American military to those jackasses, you're wrong, and you're just the type of weak-minded individual that the media loves to control.
That being said, maybe if you had spent some time in those soldier's boots you might just understand their feelings (notice I said feelings and not actions). I have, and I do. | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-13, 8:52 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
I will refrain from commenting on Germany's fascist past, and present democracy (thanks to the U.S. and U.K.)....oops, I've said too much already.
ya, and we still waiting for you to leave! america was as fascist as germany was by the way or have you forgotten holocaust you did to indians and negroes? | |
| bearing 2004-05-13, 8:54 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
and you're just the type of weak-minded individual that the media loves to control.
Yeh HOOLIGAN, I bet you only support the Gunners cause Bin Laden did.
quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
That being said, maybe if you had spent some time in those soldier's boots you might just understand their feelings (notice I said feelings and not actions). I have, and I do.
Well bully for you!! | |
| HOOLIGAN 2004-05-13, 9:08 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
That being said, maybe if you had spent some time in those soldier's boots you might just understand their feelings (notice I said feelings and not actions). I have, and I do.
Homosexual feelings? | |
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| forbesl 2004-05-13, 9:38 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by bsdboy
ya, and we still waiting for you to leave!
Believe me, most U.S. soldiers don't want to bet there, but if your government didn't want us there, we'd be gone by now. Talk to your government about that, not me. | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-13, 9:51 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
Believe me, most U.S. soldiers don't want to bet there, but if your government didn't want us there, we'd be gone by now. Talk to your government about that, not me.
bs. we cant stand against america. and you have shown that you will use force gainst any who you disagree with already. it seem to me that once america invades a place, they never leave, this way they already have military in place in case the country step out of line. | |
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| forbesl 2004-05-13, 10:06 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by HOOLIGAN
Homosexual feelings?
What's it to you, sweetie? | |
| forbesl 2004-05-13, 10:11 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by bsdboy
and you have shown that you will use force gainst any who you disagree with already.
OK, Homer....your B.S. meter just peaked. | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-13, 10:21 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
OK, Homer....your B.S. meter just peaked.
you invaded iraq though they did you nothing. you just thought the victory would be quick. this is the same thing that my country did to others in the 30's. if you invaded one, naturally we think you will use aggression against others as long as you belive we wont put up hard fight. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2004-05-13, 10:49 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
What's it to you, sweetie?
good comeback.
No, I had friends in the first Gulf war, Falklands, and stationed in Northern Ireland. You know this kind of abuse has always gone on in every war since the beginning of time. I've seen similar pictures.
The problem today is that Bush took the moral high ground, and we have digital cameras. The US Military has its hands tied by the current administration, Who are worried by bad press. To control Iraqi factions you would have to run the country like Saddam did, which would invalidate the reason Bush gave for going in in the first place.
Either way Bush is screwed. | |
| curiousgeorge 2004-05-13, 11:21 am |
| I watched Rumsfeld claim in the Senate committee hearings that he accepts full responsibility for what happened to the prisoners of war and that he accepts full accountability. And in the same breath he said he won't resign and he doesn't feel he should be fired.
Two days later Bush holds a press conference and says Rumsfeld is doing a superb job.
hmmm... one leader says he's responsible for the torture, rape, and sexual humiliation of prisoners of war (to which he admits are all violations of the Geneva Conventions). His boss says he's doing a superb job.
Sounds a lot like nazi Germany to me. | |
| bearing 2004-05-13, 12:55 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by HOOLIGAN
No, I had friends in the first Gulf war, Falklands, and stationed in Northern Ireland. You know this kind of abuse has always gone on in every war since the beginning of time. I've seen similar pictures.
I remember talking to an old boy when I was a kid who'd been on the front in the Second World War. Being a kid I'd asked him if he'd taken many prisoners, he told me he'd taken none because he'd have had to share his rations with prisoners.
Make of that what you want, but as I grew up I realised what he actually meant by his statement. | |
| yanqui 2004-05-13, 1:31 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by bsdboy
bs. we cant stand against america. and you have shown that you will use force gainst any who you disagree with already. it seem to me that once america invades a place, they never leave, this way they already have military in place in case the country step out of line.
And the problem with that is????? | |
| Papiya 2004-05-13, 1:34 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by yanqui
And the problem with that is?????
The same as the problem with Hitler. Global domination of all others by any one power is what you Americans are aiming at? You've already shown that given any amount of power you can't handle it. | |
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| I understand they want to move International Dateline to just off East coast, is this all part of the master plan? | |
| forbesl 2004-05-13, 2:11 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
The same as the problem with Hitler. Global domination of all others by any one power is what you Americans are aiming at? You've already shown that given any amount of power you can't handle it.
You know, if the United States wanted to dominate the world, we'd have done it already. Germany would be ours, Japan would be ours, Italy would be ours, and a host of other countries. But what did we do? We gave them back their countries after we defeated them (soundly, I might add), and also gave them the $$$ to rebuild them.
Let me ask YOU as question, what's your nation's beef with Pakistan? Who wants to dominate who? | |
| yanqui 2004-05-13, 2:13 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
The same as the problem with Hitler. Global domination of all others by any one power is what you Americans are aiming at? You've already shown that given any amount of power you can't handle it.
And, of course, 1940's Germany could, right? That's why we shouldn't have stayed on to monitor and manage, right?
At what point did we come to decide that a "democracy" was what was called for in Iraq? I thought the plan was for them to decide their own form of government. | |
| Papiya 2004-05-13, 2:31 pm |
| [QUOTE]Originally posted by yanqui
[B]And, of course, 1940's Germany could, right? That's why we shouldn't have stayed on to monitor and manage, right?
At what point did we come to decide that a "democracy" was what was called for in Iraq? I thought the plan was for them to decide
No, Germany in the 1940's could not. However, now you people are behaving as the Germans in the 40's did. You get power over people, then you torture them for laughs. And I doubt if there is any need for you to be monitoring the country over 50 years later, when they behave in a more civilized manner than your coutnry does.
The "liberation" of Iraq was used as an excuse to continue the aggression once the WMD farce was found out. Now America is determined to bring "democracy" to Iraq it seems. Oddly enough, "democracy" to an American means "what is beneficial to American interests" and not "self determination". Chances are another dictator only marginally better than Hussein will be put in place as long as he is freidnly to American economic interests. | |
| Papiya 2004-05-13, 2:36 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
You know, if the United States wanted to dominate the world, we'd have done it already. Germany would be ours, Japan would be ours, Italy would be ours, and a host of other countries. But what did we do? We gave them back their countries after we defeated them (soundly, I might add), and also gave them the $$$ to rebuild them.
Let me ask YOU as question, what's your nation's beef with Pakistan? Who wants to dominate who?
I've got news for you. Germany and Japan is yours. Japan especially is essentially an American colony. Ask the rape victims of American soliders there. America usually won't even turn those criminals over to the authorities. America gave money to rebuild the countries, but at the cost of being forever dominated by America. A poor exchange.
My country's beef with Pakistan is the result of a group of stupid politicians who encourage communalism and fanaticism. The Partition of India left over a million people dead and some people are still resentful over that, but its the clowns in the government of both countries that keep this going. By the way, Pakistani terrorists have been waging unrelenting terrorism in Indian Kashmir for over 15 years now. I never heard a peep from any Americans about how dreadful this was until it was taken to your homeland. If cross border terrorism is something we should put up with, then why are you complaining about terrorism? or is that something that only Americans can complain about? | |
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| Outrage from Arab press when Sadam was captured and was subject to a medical. Not much outrage when US citizen beheaded. Strange world. | |
| yanqui 2004-05-13, 2:45 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
[QUOTEHowever, now you people are behaving as the Germans in the 40's did. You get power over people, then you torture them for laughs.
Hmmmm...HOW many are involved in that?
ALL of us?
MOST of us?
How about --a FEW of us--the worst of the worst.
Somehow that becomes "you people?" | |
| Papiya 2004-05-13, 2:48 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by yanqui
Hmmmm...HOW many are involved in that?
ALL of us?
MOST of us?
How about --a FEW of us--the worst of the worst.
Somehow that becomes "you people?"
Unfortunately I cannot agree with you. Torture is a tactic that is used in every war. In a war, you first dehumanize the enemy, since that is necessary for you to be able to kill them with a clear conscience. Then you do whatever you wish with them -- since they are thought of as less than human, any and all kind of abuses become easy to perpetrate. This is what war is like. Soldiers in combat behave like animals not because they are any different from anyone else, but because of the situation that they have been placed in. Most others, in the places of those soliders accused of "crimes" would most likely have done the same thing.
And let's face it . . . "you people" did start the war. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-13, 3:23 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
Ask the rape victims of American soliders there. America usually won't even turn those criminals over to the authorities.
Not gonna quibble with you over that one. I have no idea what the Status of Forces Agreement with Japan says, so I can't comment.
quote:
America gave money to rebuild the countries, but at the cost of being forever dominated by America. A poor exchange.
Dominated? That's very laughable. Just what is your definition of "domination"? Never mind, whatever your definition is, it's very skewed.
quote:
By the way, Pakistani terrorists have been waging unrelenting terrorism in Indian Kashmir for over 15 years now.
So you both posture and wave your nuke's in each other's faces. Not unlike what the U.S. and U.S.S.R did for decades. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. | |
| yanqui 2004-05-13, 3:30 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
By the way, Pakistani terrorists have been waging unrelenting terrorism in Indian Kashmir for over 15 years now. I never heard a peep from any Americans about how dreadful this was until it was taken to your homeland. If cross border terrorism is something we should put up with, then why are you complaining about terrorism? or is that something that only Americans can complain about?
And if INdia wanted to stop that terrorism, shouldn't India be allowed to do so? And if so, why should America not be allowed to do so? I don't particularly harbor any ill will toward any country who doesn't feel threatened just because America feels threatened, but they need to step out of the way and let us deal with our threats if they're not willing to step in and help. If India is being terrorized by big bad pakistan, India should stop it. If America has kept India from doing so, then I haven't heard of it in that context. Can you clarify? | |
| curiousgeorge 2004-05-13, 5:58 pm |
| yanqui
don't ignorantly believe we invaded Iraq to rid the world of terrorism.
David Gergen, a former White House advisor, said that TWO WEEKS after Bush took office, he said he wanted to invade Iraq.
That was well before 9-11. He just used 9-11 as an excuse for his personal agenda.
He wanted to invade Iraq because his daddy's legacy was tarnished for not getting rid of Saddam when he had the chance.
Look at the facts:
Our first excuse was weapons of mass destruction. FACT: there are no WMD's.
Our next excuse was Saddam had ties to the 9-11 terrorists. FACT: The CIA concluded there were no ties whatsoever between Saddam and the 9-11 terrorists.
Our next excuse was it was a part of the general war on terrorism. FACT: No terrorists from Iraq have ever attacked America. And THIS WAR has now INVOKED terrorists to attack us.
Our next excuse was we were "liberating" Iraq from an evil dictator. FACT: we have now killed more Iraqis than Saddam. Bush has now committed more war crimes than Saddam. Did you know that this is the first war that we ARE NOT taking a body count of our enemy. You know why? Because the government doesn't want the historians to be able to record the tens of thousands of Iraqis we killed for an unjustified war.
And whether you want to admit it or not. Those soldiers that tortured and raped the prisoners of war were wrapped in the American flag. Rumsfeld announced yesterday that there are SEVERAL more instances of torture that the Pentagon has not released to the public. He was "warning" the senate that much more news of torture is coming.
I'm not proud of what our country is doing and I won't defend our leaders that have erased all honor from the American image. | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-14, 10:25 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
Not gonna quibble with you over that one. I have no idea what the Status of Forces Agreement with Japan says, so I can't comment.
Dominated? That's very laughable. Just what is your definition of "domination"? Never mind, whatever your definition is, it's very skewed.
So you both posture and wave your nuke's in each other's faces. Not unlike what the U.S. and U.S.S.R did for decades. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
you should talk, yah. your country is only one that ever a-bombed another country and you then say glass house people shouldnt toss stones?? india has a no first strike policy, america doesnt. And read the title of this thread by the way ... Americans are saying that a country that did you nothing should be nuked for defending themselves. you people wants yourselves to be the only ones with nuclear capabilities so you can dominate all others.
and as for global domination, how many us troops are stationed abroad? how many abroad troops are stationed in america? how many nations has america sanctioned? how many sanctions are placed against america? also remember spain and japan sent troops to iraq for you, even though both of thems people majority were against this. when countries do what is bad for themselves in favor of what is good for other country, this is good sign of servitude, yeah? america is an empire already, you just dont like to admits it because you like everyone else to believe that you are all democracy minded. | |
| yanqui 2004-05-14, 10:42 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by curiousgeorge
yanqui
don't ignorantly believe we invaded Iraq to rid the world of terrorism.
David Gergen, a former White House advisor, said that TWO WEEKS after Bush took office, he said he wanted to invade Iraq.
That was well before 9-11. He just used 9-11 as an excuse for his personal agenda.
He wanted to invade Iraq because his daddy's legacy was tarnished for not getting rid of Saddam when he had the chance.
Look at the facts:
Our first excuse was weapons of mass destruction. FACT: there are no WMD's.
Our next excuse was Saddam had ties to the 9-11 terrorists. FACT: The CIA concluded there were no ties whatsoever between Saddam and the 9-11 terrorists.
Our next excuse was it was a part of the general war on terrorism. FACT: No terrorists from Iraq have ever attacked America. And THIS WAR has now INVOKED terrorists to attack us.
Our next excuse was we were "liberating" Iraq from an evil dictator. FACT: we have now killed more Iraqis than Saddam. Bush has now committed more war crimes than Saddam. Did you know that this is the first war that we ARE NOT taking a body count of our enemy. You know why? Because the government doesn't want the historians to be able to record the tens of thousands of Iraqis we killed for an unjustified war.
And whether you want to admit it or not. Those soldiers that tortured and raped the prisoners of war were wrapped in the American flag. Rumsfeld announced yesterday that there are SEVERAL more instances of torture that the Pentagon has not released to the public. He was "warning" the senate that much more news of torture is coming.
I'm not proud of what our country is doing and I won't defend our leaders that have erased all honor from the American image.
I haven't, in this thread, anyway, tried to justify anything. But understand that because someone does something in the name of something I honor doesn't mean they have my approval. When our military members step out of line they need to be punished. If they try and justify their actions under the flag, they need to be charged with treason. Regardless of the auspices under which other nations carry themselves, in war we are still subject to the Geneva Conventions, and if we want to claim the moral high ground we need to be standing firmly on it. My stand in this thread is strictly in reference to the soldiers' behavior toward prisoners of war. Nothing justifies it. And I understand that anyone watching it from other countries will feel bad about the US; I think I would feel the same way. We have rules regarding how POWs are treated; the soldiers violated those rules. | |
| 2lazybutsmart 2004-05-14, 1:32 pm |
| What a goddamned cover-up. I just can’t believe we’re buying it.
The media isn't helping us (good citizens) find out what our soldiers are doing in occupied countries; instead, it's being used by some people we don't know as a means of diverting our attention from topics that would drive otherwise sane people to lunacy. And goddamitt!!!, they're just miserably failing!
I think it's time America stops shoving its “bush-democracy” up people's a$$ by force. Remember... "Freedom" and "Democracy" are synonymous words; and gang raping a nation has no place in freedom or democracy. It's against the values of democratic nations; it's inhumane (not un-American anymore, though ). It’s BUSH-DEMOCRACY (did I say that before . I just made that word up, but to sum it up, it means “People are worthless if they’re penniless. But if you’re rich, you're a goddamned untouchable fcuking b1tch.”
And I'll tell you Iraqis don't wanna hear that. They were lied to, and it's time the liars pack up. And if they don't --well, kick their a$$! (That’s the American way, isn't it?)
And if you're one of those people who call those Iraqis who fight for their country "insurgents", you're in for a rude awakening. Those Iraqis are not insurgents or terrorists or "The Enemy", they are the REVLOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow --and they will win. And if it gets really dirty, it might spell World War III.
We don’t want that. And by “we”, I mean all “humans” on this earth (FYI, Bush & Co. are not humans if that just crossed your brain).
We can’t afford to hand this delicate world of ours over to some lunatics like Bush and Rumsfeld. We just can’t!
2lbs. | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-14, 2:42 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by 2lazybutsmart
And if you're one of those people who call those Iraqis who fight for their country "insurgents", you're in for a rude awakening. Those Iraqis are not insurgents or terrorists or "The Enemy", they are the REVLOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow --and they will win. And if it gets really dirty, it might spell World War III.
I am not against or even disagree with a lot of what you say. However you do your case no good at all when you wade into political fanaticism. You should look as sources other than the public news.
Apparently you are not aware that even the Iraqi's say that the majority of the insurgents are not native Iraqis. The remainder are the party elite that lost their royal like lifestyle.
While you say that you can see through our propaganda campaign you seem to buy into the "insurgents or terrorists" campaign 100 percent. That is kind of sad. Also remember that more than 2/3 of Iraq have gotten back to a improved lifestyle. This upsets the insurgents to no end. Insurgents are who they are, terror is the mechanism. Most of the acts of terror are killing more Iraqi's than coalition forces.
Just so we all know
in-sur-gent (in sûr'juhnt) n.
1. a person who takes part in forcible
opposition or armed resistance to an
established government or authority;
rebel.
2. a member of a group, esp. a political
party, who revolts against the policies
of the leadership.
adj.
3. rising in revolt; rebellious. | |
| 2lazybutsmart 2004-05-14, 3:29 pm |
| quote:
I am not against or even disagree with a lot of what you say.
ahmen to that.. aymen, but you just did a good job diverting me from my topic: "Why is bush shoving it up their asses if they don't want it?".
Look, no one's gonna get down there and have Iraqis poll on current issues. We'll never know what they want cuz the country is now just one hell of a fire. Corruption and chaos are to just too much for unbiased thought.
But if you've ever had the chance to talk to Iraqis (both living in the U.S. and outside) --which I really doubt you've had-- you'd probably know they're desperately crying out for help. They want America and its allies out. That’s what they want.
Halliburton and all those "private contractors" aren't there to help; they're WAR profiteers who flourish on the blood and bones of other people.
What I'm saying here is (if you haven't got my point yet) you told the Iraqis you were going to liberate them from saddam and his brutal killings. They liked that first, but they were probably too stupid to comprehend the real reason behind the bid then. Now it's daylight for them and they can see properly.... and they want the Americans out. Now if that sounds like asking a multi-billion dollar company to close operations, you're on the right track... cuz that's EXACTLY what it is.
2lbs. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-14, 3:53 pm |
| See what you started, darth?  | |
| curiousgeorge 2004-05-14, 4:47 pm |
| Before 9-11, Osama Bin Laden made it clear that reason for his hatred against America is we are trying to westernize the middle east. He said he will continue attacking us as long as we try to force the middle east to become like America.
hmmm... it's sad when Bush is making Bin Laden sound like he's right.
A capitalist country in the oil rich, middle east would mean billions of dollars for oil companies in America.
Oh... I almost forgot... that's where Bush and Cheyney made all their money.
Cheyney and daddy Bush are currently making tens of millions off of this war too. Daddy Bush is a director of a security company that was secretly awarded a massive war contract. The contract was supposed to go out to bid, but it didn't. Cheyney denied he had any ties to Haliburton, but investigators uncovered that he didn't sell his shares of Haliburton. He put them in a trust fund to hide them. | |
| yanqui 2004-05-14, 4:51 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by curiousgeorge
Before 9-11, Osama Bin Laden made it clear that reason for his hatred against America is we are trying to westernize the middle east. He said he will continue attacking us as long as we try to force the middle east to become like America.
I hadn't heard that before. Did he explain what he meant by "westernize?"
PS--I LOVE the grin on your avatar--your little boy? | |
|
| Posting your own perception as fact does not make it true. | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-14, 11:14 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by 2lazybutsmart
But if you've ever had the chance to talk to Iraqis (both living in the U.S. and outside) --which I really doubt you've had-- you'd probably know they're desperately crying out for help. They want America and its allies out. That’s what they want.
2lbs.
Most of your message is just supposition on your part so there is no need to respond. I won't attempt to know your conditions in the great north called Canada or where you get your knowledge. I will say this that when you respond know that Southern California has a very very large Iraqi population. As an instructor I come into contact with quite a few who also have relatives back home. The same can be said for émigrés from Iran. One of the larger places for religious gathering is less than five miles away.
I see middle easterners on a daily basis as do many in Los Angeles county. I don't even take notice when I hear Farsi or other regional languages spoken. Many of us understand far more than you give us credit for. It is to easy to just rant and group the largest multi-racial nation in the world into one lump. Oh in case you are wondering I am just your average, family has been here forever, mongrel ugly American.
______________________
BUTCH
...Esmarelda Villalobos -- is that Mexican?
ESMARELDA
The name is Spanish, but I'm Columbian.
BUTCH
It's a very pretty name.
ESMARELDA
It mean "Esmarelda of the wolves."
BUTCH
That's one hell of a name you got there, sister.
ESMARELDA
Thank you. And what is your name?
BUTCH
Butch.
ESMARELDA
Butch. What does it mean?
BUTCH
I'm an American, our names don't mean sh@t.
--Pulp Fiction directed by Quentin Tarantino | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-14, 11:18 pm |
| quote:
originally posted by Azimuth
That is kind of sad. Also remember that more than 2/3 of Iraq have gotten back to a improved lifestyle.
quote:
originally posted by Foggy
Posting your own perception as fact does not make it true.
from AJ
"An opinion poll conducted for the CPA and quoted by Thursday's Washington Post showed that 80% of Iraqis mistrust the coalition authority and 82% disapprove of US and allied occupation forces in their country."
azimuth infers that 2/3 of iraqis are happy with u.s.
foggy's quote applies quite nicely to azimuth's statement. | |
| mikop 2004-05-14, 11:22 pm |
| hehe
not only the most racially diverse nation, but one of the most diverse state with ppl from practically every part of the world with every opinions possible. I would say californias and americans in general are more in touch with the world through personal contact than anyone else.
I shall heed your warning and not group all canadians idiots. | |
|
|
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-15, 9:41 am |
| quote:
At least I quote enough of them to get the gist of things rather picking one that suits some mythical position that I wish to beat someone into submission with.
while at the same time ignoring their implications.
furthermore I find it humourous when a bush supporter attempts to claim moral highground against anybody, particularly for beating a less powerful opponent into submission.
quote:
I would say californias and americans in general are more in touch with the world through personal contact than anyone else.
I think you need to other, particularly non corporate, information sources.
no doubt foreigners in germany in the '30's were generally complementary of hitler, the underlying pressure being the same, fear. bush and his cronies give people plenty to be afraid of.
rumsfeld says torture is okay because he has found a couple of lawyers that told him it was alright. this same man is in control of the most powerful military in the world. | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-15, 10:22 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
while at the same time ignoring their implications.
furthermore I find it humourous when a bush supporter attempts to claim moral highground against anybody, particularly for beating a less powerful opponent into submission.
Who is the Bush supporter??? surely not I
quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
I think you need to other, particularly non corporate, information sources.
I think that pretty much displays your agenda as I have mentioned before. No matter which stance an American takes you will say it is wrong. We say that many of us talk to native Iraqis who also talk to relatives back home in Iraq. I post polls done by non Americans that just happen to be in American news sources and suddenly they are corporate sources and we should find "non corporate, information sources." Lets see that would be your one great "non corporate" source of information on Iraq, english.aljazBIAS.net, correct? | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-15, 12:49 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by azimuth40
Who is the Bush supporter??? surely not I
I think that pretty much displays your agenda as I have mentioned before. No matter which stance an American takes you will say it is wrong. We say that many of us talk to native Iraqis who also talk to relatives back home in Iraq. I post polls done by non Americans that just happen to be in American news sources and suddenly they are corporate sources and we should find "non corporate, information sources." Lets see that would be your one great "non corporate" source of information on Iraq, english.aljazBIAS.net, correct?
is there such thing today as non-corporate news sources? i dont think so. american news sources are biased towards the goverment but this is the same as every other country. to try to find out the truth, you need to read all reporting with criticism. btw, i am also in contact with a few iraqis. they are not happy with the situation, as can be expected, but can do nothing to change it. | |
| 2lazybutsmart 2004-05-15, 2:41 pm |
| azimuth40: You watch FOX news and CNN right... lol. Talk about being biased. Man! I'm saying all news channels are biased. It's the saddest and scariest stories that sell most; so why not just add a few pieces of non-existent information here and a few there to make it look so sexy.
Forget about all that... How about a radical idea: Don't watch the news
Your country--sorry ..your government-- is doing its best to get out of this mess with truckloads--damn! shiploads-- of cash. And it seems that's one point you’re trying to ignore. The same point dubya's trying to ignore. It's gotta be shushed up cuz it could send all these gangsters to hell.
…And it still rings in my ear:
"Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Dubya. Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004
Thank you Mr. Bush... for pointing that out.
We are going to continue criticizing this gang rape of an oil rich nation till the occupation forces leave. I just hope that happens soon. Very soon. Because every American kid fresh from high school I see on the news with a bullet through his head just proves how reckless these scumbags up in Washington are. Those American kids deserve a better treatment from their government. It’s all fcuked up and it’ll be like that until bush it thrown out. And I hope that happens soon. Very soon.
2lbs. | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-15, 3:32 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by 2lazybutsmart
azimuth40: You watch FOX news and CNN right... lol. 2lbs.
Wrong!!! I listen to music or the radio mostly I don't have much time for TV. When my day is over there is nothing on but infomercials. I have neither cable or satellite. I do follow the BBC and NPR in addition to regular sources that the Canadians here seem to believe are 100 percent propoganda while Canadian sources are not. Amazing for a country where most of the population lives within 100 miles of their southern border. I guess taking potshots at the U.S. must be a major sport up there. Otherwise Why should you care anyway your bias already shows by deciding the answers in advance. | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-15, 3:51 pm |
| i see no sensible reason why america is in iraq, but i think you are wrong about america trying to get money out of it. so far, they havent stolen any oil, there petrol prices are higher than ever before, and congresspoeples keep trying to ask for more monies to go to iraq with. so far it does nothing but cost everyone on every side. | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-15, 10:50 pm |
| quote:
Wrong!!! I listen to music or the radio mostly
would that be the innuendo based uber conservative cesspool of fanatical right wing talk radio that is currently infesting the airwaves and minds of america?
talk about obscenity, those guys are whacko's of the most savage bent. the venal spew coming out of that source may well be the most offensive and incessant profanity on the planet... and it is blanketing america
btw, I bet that berg murder was carried out by pro bush group. the continuing attempt to link al quaeda to iraq and divert from the rumsfeld savagery being the underlying rational.
it is interesting to see what great lengths the american media goes to in the process of trying to link iraq to 9/11.
I'm going to go watch that berg video now...
also; what happens to the 2 million barrels of oil that leave iraq every day? who gets the oil? who gets the money?
after watching the video I certainly wouldnt put rumsfeld past arranging something like that. he has already arranged thousands of murders, what is one more?
hey azimuth, is that you at 216.239.57.99? | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-16, 12:02 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
I'm going to go watch that berg video now...
also; what happens to the 2 million barrels of oil that leave iraq every day? who gets the oil? who gets the money?
Did you forget your med's again. That last bit, not worth quoting, was the worst since you wanted to put the snipers nests up at the border last year. They took the web site down so you will have to find a mirror. I guess the Malaysian web hosting company got a clue. There must be a lot of pro Bush supporters in Malaysia.
Since we are going broke with the "boat loads of cash" we are sending over there and I just paid almost double for gas from what I paid six months ago it must be going to Canada. The rest seems to be burning in the desert again because the insurgents blew up the pipeline to the capital again just so the Iraqis could blame the U.S. from stealing it from the center of the earth.
Maybe you could ask the Dutch since I use Shell Oil products. I could switch to Arco that is British Petroleum and the largest supplier in the western U.S.; Canada too. Even with your oil sand I think you still import around 900,000 barrels a day. Not withstanding all you lot that cross the border to fill your monster trucks and SUV's because except for the U.S. west it is still cheaper to do so. Of course we go to Canada to buy pharmaceuticals
You really should quit talking about things that you are unprepared to discuss. Oil is controlled by hidden international conglomerates and not the U.S. or Cheney and crew. Less than half of the oil in North America including Canada comes from sources outside of the western Hemisphere. The advantage that the middle east "had" was that their oil was cheap to get out of the ground and they had half of the verified usable sources.
North America has plenty except it is covered by water, frozen, has bogs over it or is protected by tree huggers. South America was our largest source of imported oil until Venezuela joined OPEC. However OPEC has come close to collapsing several times recently which has many members worried especially the Saudis.
Iraq has 112 billion barrels of oil. The world uses 27 billion barrels per year. Only naieve people believe this is about oil. If it was the sole source of U.S. oil it would be gone in 25 years. The world could use it up in 4 years. If we used it only for energy and not for making things that the rest of the world also uses, it would still last less than 40 years. At the 50 percent mark many scientists believe the profitability of removing it decreases.
edit fixed my math U.S. uses 12 million+ barrels per day or about 4.5 billion per year | |
| darthfeces 2004-05-16, 12:50 am |
| hey
me i'm a lossser
if we mail you a hand grenade could you please become a martyr ??????
maybe you could be scoring with virgins by midnight ? | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
talk about obscenity, those guys are whacko's of the most savage bent. the venal spew coming out of that source may well be the most offensive and incessant profanity on the planet.
Certainly true about some posts on this forum. | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-16, 9:12 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by darthfeces
hey
me i'm a lossser
if we mail you a hand grenade could you please become a martyr ??????
maybe you could be scoring with virgins by midnight ?
islam forbids suicide in any form. martyrs will get no virgin pussy.
quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
btw, I bet that berg murder was carried out by pro bush group.
the crack finally is getting to you, huh? | |
| thebonzodog 2004-05-16, 2:16 pm |
| I suggest you all stick to talking about certs and stuff. | |
| bsdboy 2004-05-16, 5:09 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by thebonzodog
I suggest you all stick to talking about certs and stuff.
i love certs, they make you breth fresh | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-16, 7:45 pm |
| quote:
Only naieve people believe this is about oil.
thats good, I guess you wont have any problem packing up and fcuking off then?
quote:
islam forbids suicide in any form. martyrs will get no virgin pussy.
where did you get the impression that I give a shit about islam? they're no less whacko than jews or christians or any other over the line nut nutcases.
I see powell has jumped on the bandwagon now, they sure are trying to milk this berg thing for all they can, I wonder how much it cost them to set up?
azimuth, if you think you have any business over in iraq why dont you just go there yourself, kill as many iraqis as you can, and pretend to be the good guy until one of them kills you in the process of defending their own land?
afterwards I will say you deserved what you got.
hey azimuth, is that you at 216.239.57.99? | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-16, 8:21 pm |
| Hey Me? ... your message is your best advertisement no need for a comment on my part. Would you like me to send you a few cases of "Eveian" mountain spring bottled water to go with that pie.
Looks like you have about run your course again. You going to disappear for a month or so as usual.
Cheers friend. | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-16, 8:26 pm |
| P.S. Since you asked my dads server @ 216.239.57.104 can spoof your dads server @ 216.239.57.99 | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-16, 9:14 pm |
| quote:
You going to disappear for a month or so as usual.
congratulations, you have once again run out of coherent argument
its a pity your friend forbesl hasnt returned since being identified as a slobbering corporate communist. why dont you call him up and plot strategy?
america is now making the painful transition to the understanding that they have no business in iraq. if they stay they loose, if they leave they loose.
less americans will die if they leave, more iraqis will die if they stay
ill thought, ill planned, illegitimate, and
unwinnable. | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-16, 10:30 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
congratulations, you have once again run out of coherent argument
america is now making the painful transition to the understanding that they have no business in iraq. if they stay they loose, if they leave they loose.
less americans will die if they leave, more iraqis will die if they stay
ill thought, ill planned, illegitimate, and
unwinnable.
One must have coherent questions to send back coherent arguments. This message from you is not quite as bad as the last few. Found those meds did you bud.
Even the Iraqis and neighboring Arab states believe more Iraqis will die if we leave now. The Kurds for sure would be toast. The non-Iraqi insurgents are just waiting to take over and create their fiefdoms. You know those supposedly freedom fighters that blow up more Iraqis than Americans. | |
|
| Leave it to an American, living in a country that hasn't even *existed* for 250 years, and whose greatest contribution to human civilization seems to have been McDonalds and WalMart to label another culture (1300+ years old) as "uncivilized." No, Americans didn't "invent" democracy--it's a 2500-year-old concept from ancient Greece, and from what I've seen lately we've (in America) got something closer to a "kleptocracy" or an "oligarchy" ("petrocracy"?) rather than a true democratic system these days. Just look at that shaky-a**, most-likely-stolen Presidential so-called "election" in 2000. Wonderful country, and I've lived here many years, but it's so sad that "history" to so many Americans is defined as "a TV show that was on last season."
Open a history book instead of a comic book sometime. Bet you'd be surprised to learn that AY-RABS saved Western European culture's bacon from the "Dark Ages" after Rome was destroyed by "barbarians" and all "Western" books and manuscripts were destroyed because they (the Arab culture) preserved the knowledge (Astronomy, Mathematics, e.g.) of the Greeks, and "gave it back" to you, largely through the excellent educational system they established in Spain and southern France during their hegemony there.
Open your eyes, learn a little history, and stop looking at the world through a cardboard toilet-paper tube, for God's sake.
----------------------------------------
Those who won't learn history are doomed to
re-live it.
George Santayana | |
| forbesl 2004-05-17, 4:42 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
its a pity your friend forbesl hasnt returned since being identified as a slobbering corporate communist. why dont you call him up and plot strategy?
I'm still here. I'm just having more fun sitting in the audience watching you tap dance. You're not very good at it, so I wouldn't quit your day job... | |
| forbesl 2004-05-17, 5:07 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by kalex
No, Americans didn't "invent" democracy--it's a 2500-year-old concept from ancient Greece, and from what I've seen lately we've (in America) got something closer to a "kleptocracy" or an "oligarchy" ("petrocracy"?) rather than a true democratic system these days.
"These days"? Hate to break it to you, Homer....America is a representative republic, and never has been a true democracy. You're the one who needs to bone up on history.
quote:
Bet you'd be surprised to learn that AY-RABS saved Western European culture's bacon from the "Dark Ages" after Rome was destroyed by "barbarians" and all "Western" books and manuscripts were destroyed because they (the Arab culture) preserved the knowledge (Astronomy, Mathematics, e.g.) of the Greeks, and "gave it back" to you, largely through the excellent educational system they established in Spain and southern France during their hegemony there.
Well, go live with the AY-RABS, then.
Oh, but you still enjoy the benefits of living in the U.S. don't you? From what I've seen in this thread, maybe Canada would be more to your liking, though.
I continue to be amazed at the people who talk so much trash about the U.S.A, yet continue to live within its borders and enjoy the freedoms and opportunities that made this country great. And face it, no matter what ANY of you clowns say, it is a great country. We wouldn't have so many people trying to immigrate (legally or illegally) into this country if it wasn't.
But, many of you will continue to spew your garbage and ill conceived notions about the U.S., and that's OK, we're accustomed to it. So go burn the American flag, beat your chest, or dance naked on the steps of the capitol building. Because when the smoke clears, we'll still be standing. No matter what "me? I'm a jackass...." says.
Signed,
A "Slobbering Corporate Communist" | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
btw, I bet that berg murder was carried out by pro bush group.
I suggest you go to William Hill's and see what odds you can get! | |
| HOOLIGAN 2004-05-17, 8:30 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
"These days"? Hate to break it to you, Homer....America is a representative republic, and never has been a true democracy.
Strange, Ive heard this said a few times before. I would think, depending on your definition of the word Demo-cracy ( government exercised either directly by the people or through elected representatives ) that the US is both a Democracy and a Republic (A political order with an elected presedent and not a monarch ) . Please explain why the US is not a Democracy, Forbesl.
quote:
Open a history book instead of a comic book sometime. Bet you'd be surprised to learn that AY-RABS saved Western European culture's bacon from the "Dark Ages" after Rome was destroyed by "barbarians" and all "Western" books and manuscripts were destroyed because they (the Arab culture) preserved the knowledge (Astronomy, Mathematics, e.g.) of the Greeks, and "gave it back" to you, largely through the excellent educational system they established in Spain and southern France during their hegemony there.
Give the Irish some credit please
http://www.bookfinder.us/review8/0385418493.html | |
| forbesl 2004-05-17, 9:06 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by HOOLIGAN
Please explain why the US is not a Democracy, Forbesl.
Sure.
Article IV section 4 of the U.S. Constitution: "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a republican form of government..." . Many of the U.S. founders believed democracy was the worst form of government; it was considered to be mobocracy (mob rule). Because our constitution guarantees a republic, The USA is not a democracy but a representative republic. Citizens in a community elect members from among them to represent them in the House of Representatives.
In a true democracy, the majority rules; This is not the case in the U.S...the Electoral college is an example, it was established as a balance to "mob rule". The U.S. presidential election in 2000 is just one instance. Although Al Gore got the majority vote, George Bush was elected because he received the majority of the votes from the electoral college.
....now we'll see how many disgruntled people reply to this post with the "Bush stole the election!" argument... | |
| azimuth40 2004-05-17, 10:18 am |
| Well ladies and gentleman it seems after Powell's statement that we would leave after June if the new government wanted us to was not acceptable. Insurgents just sent in a suicide bomber and killed the head of the Iraqi governing council. You know the guy who was to be acting president and organize the elections for the fall.
Oh well I am sure pro Bush supporters will be blamed by the end of the day.
As I said stability in Iraq would be a bad thing for the budding warlords. America leaving would also be a bad thing to these budding warlords, many posing as clerics, as the Iraqi people might spot the real enemy.
Flour's stock just dropped drastically. They had just hired 4,000 Iraqis and were training them to rebuild the infrastructure. | |
| forbesl 2004-05-17, 10:24 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by bsdboy
Americans are saying that a country that did you nothing should be nuked for defending themselves.
Not all Americans believe that, just me.
quote:
you people wants yourselves to be the only ones with nuclear capabilities so you can dominate all others.
Well, I know one thing, I'm glad the "Fatherland" didn't get them first, otherwise, we'd all be speaking German and getting the "untermenschen" treatment.
quote:
and as for global domination, how many us troops are stationed abroad? how many abroad troops are stationed in america? how many nations has america sanctioned? how many sanctions are placed against america?
1) Quite a lot, but we don't "dominate" your country do we?
2) Zero (we won, remember?)
3) Quite a few, actually. Count how many countries support/harbor terrorists and like to kill U.S. citizens for fun and that will get you to a close number.
4) We don't care
quote:
also remember spain and japan sent troops to iraq for you, even though both of thems people majority were against this. when countries do what is bad for themselves in favor of what is good for other country, this is good sign of servitude, yeah?
Your B.S. meter just broke.
quote:
america is an empire already, you just dont like to admits it because you like everyone else to believe that you are all democracy minded.
OK....I admit it, we're an empire. Now, shutup and serve me my dinner before I put a burlap bag on your head and shove a glow stick up your butt. | |
| me? I dunno... 2004-05-17, 11:29 am |
| quote:
Oh well I am sure pro Bush supporters will be blamed by the end of the day.
why wait for the end of the day? It is interesting that the governing council members killed so far were iraqi moderates, not imported american puppets... very interesting indeed.
why are arabs so determined to avoid killing american puppets, instead targeting moderate iraqi's? I bet they aren't...
I bet its just another rumsfeld arranged murder to divert attention from other rumsfeld arranged murders. | |
| curiousgeorge 2004-05-17, 11:36 am |
| Can any pro-war person tell me why we're at war with Iraq?
The first 8 excuses all turned out to be lies.
I just wanted a good explanation so if my son is forced to go over there in 10 years and get killed, I can start preparing myself (and him) now.
I want to try to explain to him the noble cause he is fighting.
Thanks for any enlightened responses. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2004-05-17, 11:49 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by forbesl
Sure.
Article IV section 4 of the U.S. Constitution: "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a republican form of government..." . Many of the U.S. founders believed democracy was the worst form of government; it was considered to be mobocracy (mob rule). Because our constitution guarantees a republic, The USA is not a democracy but a representative republic. Citizens in a community elect members from among them to represent them in the House of Representatives.
In a true democracy, the majority rules; This is not the case in the U.S...the Electoral college is an example, it was established as a balance to "mob rule". The U.S. presidential election in 2000 is just one instance. Although Al Gore got the majority vote, George Bush was elected because he received the majority of the votes from the electoral college.
....now we'll see how many disgruntled people reply to this post with the "Bush stole the election!" argument...
Can't say i'm altogether convinced. I dont necessarily want to get into a semantic discussion as to what democ | | |