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Sick of the WHINING!!!
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| kwftide 2001-05-02, 8:50 am |
| This post will get me flamed into little bits of charcoal, but this has to be said.
Man, stop fricking complaining all day and get busy making things happen! I am sick of the "this IT field is a racket" crap. You don't like it, get the hell out.
It is exactly like any other profession - only you get to play with cool toys and, yes, there is potential for very good money after putting in the time. In other fields, you can't avoid college and work for 15 years and then cry when management declares everyone must have a degree of some sort. Likewise, you can't come straight out of school thinking you'll make 80 Grand a year.
And it isn't realistic in the IT field to expect success with only certifications OR experience. You must have both. Get used to it or get out. | |
| Daviet 2001-05-02, 9:30 am |
| "Sick of the WHINING!!!" Is what you just wrote..
Have you actually just read your post?
One More thing.. 2 men/women walk into a Tech shop or what have you, Neither have any experience in the Field, One Has a few certs behind him/her which obviously means he knows a bit about what hes doing, And the other Has no certs. Who do you think has the best chance of getting the Job?
Everyone knows Experience is what it comes down to, But to have a certification behind you certainly helps, Even if only by a fraction. | |
| rctechy 2001-05-02, 10:30 am |
| Would you like some cheese to go with that wine? | |
| Randy 2001-05-02, 10:44 am |
| I would! Cheese is awesome!!! | |
| Unregistered 2001-05-02, 11:21 am |
| You may he's whining, but he has some good points about this board. Can you honestly say this board doesn't have a lot of posts devoted to people bitching about how they can't get a job? | |
| Daviet 2001-05-02, 12:12 pm |
| Lots... No.
A Few... Yes.
We all have to vent somehow, What better place than a Forum with others that are in the same situation and can relate.
If you dont like it "Change the channel"  | |
| Randy 2001-05-02, 12:39 pm |
| Yes, sometimes it can get old, but lots of people come here for help. They work hard and it can get very frustrating at times. True, some are expecting to get into IT easily and then they believe they will have a fast ticket to easy street, but most people work their butts off and and it can get very disappointing for their efforts not to get any results. | |
| kwftide 2001-05-02, 12:48 pm |
| So, you are saying that you like hearing someone complain about "The Man" when all they should is play the game correctly? Again, the IT field is NO DIFFERENT than any other profession - you need a piece of paper and some years of experience for the resume. Then, you must shine in the interview. Oh yeah, then you must actually do the work.
I think it bothers me because throwing up the hands and saying, "Everybody is keeping me down" has become a national sport. | |
| Randy 2001-05-02, 12:52 pm |
| So what's your point? Saying that people should keep quiet when they're discouraged? Everybody feels like that from time to time. It's not a crime. Just try to be a little understanding. No, I don't like hearing people complain, but I can understand where they are coming from. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-03, 6:53 pm |
| Wining and Dining. Hmmm. Maybe that's what I should be doing. Maybe I am going about it all wrong, and like some people out there, I should be making my nose brown. Maybe if I had any money I could pay someone under the table or something to get me a job. Do true Headhunters exist anymore?
quote:
So, you are saying that you like hearing someone complain about "The Man" when all they should is play the game correctly?
Try to understand, that due to Economics, the "Game" as you call it, within the IT field does not have a level playing field (Ethical Conductance of Business), which is the reason why many people are frustrated.
Ever since the "Pirates of Silicon Valley" arrived in the Industry, it is "Anything Goes"
Plus, with the economy as it is these days, (take me back to the 80's, when the IT Industry was up and up) when it comes to money, it's "Anything Goes". This is why Recruiters receiving a Commission from employers for placement are useless for us IT people.
Many Employers "Speak with Forked Tongues" also. An employer might have 2 positions available that have the same responsibilities, but due to Contractual Requirements, one of them might only require a cert, where the other might require only experience, or require both a cert and experience. Now here is the kicker coming from the mouth of a recruiter whom I just spoke with: "Many employers will withhold information from the general populace regarding the true detailed requirements and responsibilities, and availability of a position for a number of reasons including but not limited to:
1. They already have the position filled and are required by company policy or law to advertise it.
2. They are hoping to fill a "possible position" IF they win a contract, but have not yet negotiated all of the details of a contract.
3. The position that is open must adhere to the standard of a Ethnic Minority, or disabled individual, or other disadvantaged criteria, and the employer must follow hiring guidelines to avoid reverse-discrimination implications.
The IT Industry used to be above board back in the early and mid 80's, before the "Pirates" took over.
Back then, we isolated failures to component level, and "Engineered" radical solutions to problems. We knew how to use Oscilloscopes, VOM's, OTDR's, Spectrum Analyzers, and even simple tools like fox and hound.
We could troubleshoot at base levels by doing things like stepping microcode through registers, and we new what Boolean Logic and Expressions were and how to analyze gates.
We would use schematic diagrams to isolate component failures, and modify or construct electronic circuitry.
Back then if we had a memory failure, we would isolate it to the chip or "core" and we knew how to solder. Nowadays, its swap any and everything until you find it.
Back then we would replace bad heads on disk drives, "fly" the heads with a DEDU, and align them.
Back then there was no such thing as "Click on this, and Click on that, it was all CLI.
Back then the Title of "Systems Engineer" meant something, no matter if the guy had a 2 year or 4 year degree, and knew his stuff.
Back then, there was no such thing as Certifications, and it was great. Now I have to keep up with the Joneses for silly pieces of paper, for which it may or may not matter, depending upon the "Whims" of someone.
I have seen some of the Microsoft Certification Practice test material, and it cracks me up. They even hold your hand to teach you solutions to troubleshooting scenarios. What a joke.
That is why I personally don't hold MCSE with high esteem.
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer?
"Systems Engineer"????
Baloney, try:
Mind Control Slave Economics
What we need is a voice in the Industry like the Teamsters or something like that, or a guy to lead us like Mohandas Ghandi. | |
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| It's Gandhi, dude. "Ghandi" means filthy. | |
| imran1430 2001-05-03, 8:40 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Randy
It's Gandhi, dude. "Ghandi" means filthy.
ROFL!!!!
VERY GOOD RANDY! kekeke | |
| Unregistered 2001-05-03, 9:27 pm |
| So I take you dont hold an MCSE? It seems most of the whining is done by the ones who dont have it and wish they did! | |
| kwftide 2001-05-03, 9:44 pm |
| Kiwini:
The above post by "Unregistered" is kind of making my point. Now, I'm not saying you haven't paid dues or anything, because it's clear you have. Fifteen years in the IT field is a mightly long time.
But, you said yourself that you are currently out of work. My point is, you shouldn't have to be. With your experience, you could be making a lot of money and could have your pick of jobs. All you need is to play their game and get the "little pieces of paper".
You can remain aloof and deny the realities of this profession or you can work the system. But righteous indignation doesn't pay the bills, does it?
Are you experienced primarily with Unix? Do you have years of NT Server experience? What about routers / switches? What about database design and administration? Or all of the above? Wherever your strengths are greatest (and the pay scale is good) is where you should go after your certifications.
I understand you don't like the way things are and long for the days when experience was all that mattered. But we don't live in the mid-1980's anymore. Get something that some HR guy will recognize and then your experience will blow away the competition.
Market yourself.
Anyway, if you can't see my point, then all we are doing is debating. I'm not trying to debate, only to illustrate that there is a clear way to succeed in this field - experience coupled with certifications. | |
| imran1430 2001-05-03, 9:54 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by kwftide
there is a clear way to succeed in this field - experience coupled with certifications.
I agree with you 100%. Word to word!
While I was studying for my A+, I started an internship under a tech at a local company. After spending a month as an intern, I was offered the job!
Since then, I have been the Technical Advisor there and have also gained A LOT of skills. All this happening while I am studying for my N+ cert.
The best way to learn is to be OUT in the feild.
Certifications will only give you a boost while you are at it. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-03, 10:06 pm |
| quote:
It's Gandhi, dude. "Ghandi" means filthy
That's right. We need somebody to play dirty pool for us just like the Underhanded Unethical Tactics of "Scammer" Bill Gates. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-03, 11:06 pm |
| quote:
So I take you dont hold an MCSE? It seems most of the whining is done by the ones who dont have it and wish they did!
I used to be like you and thought that Microsoft was the Messiah of Computing and Networking. Until I woke up and smelled the roses and saw it was a False God.
Scammer Gates has got your mind controlled into believing that NT is where it's at.
I believe in being your own person, and if possible, a Leader, not a follower. Why would I want to follow an inferior obsolete technology?
Moreso, Scammersoft wants to hold your hand to make you dependant upon them just like a drug dealer does with his junkies.
You are of course entitled to your beliefs as well as wasting your time and effort on NT technology that has radically changed 3 times in the past 5 or so years and is still inferior and obsolete. I prefer to use my time more wisely.
Just so you know you will have to go through the recertification process every 3 years or so, with every release of new software from Scammersoft. But then you'll probably braindump it right? If possible, you'll braindump one conversion test instead of seven, right?
It would not matter if I did or did not have an MCSE, I know an inferior obsolete technology when I see it.
This is why Linux and Unix are capitalizing on the Inferior obsolete technology of NT.
Time to bust out of the MCSE (Mind Control Slave Economics) mindset.
Stop letting Microsoft pull your chain.
Microsoft admits their NOS is inferior because for one, they do not utilize True Clustering Strategies. Neither is it scalable to the level of Sun Technology. And so they are not a TRUE Enterprise Networking Solution.
Guess what powers the Internet? If you said Scammersoft, it's time for me to start laughing again.
Oh, by the way, my direct question to you is:
Have you ever worked directly on an ENTERPRISE NETWORK? If you have, you would know that Scammersoft is low man on the totem pole.
Checkout: http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunfla...h.980909.2.html
Project Cascade, beautiful, eh!
Also checkout: http://us2.samba.org/samba/about.html
Dontcha just love it? Two Microsoft elimination projects happening at the same time!
Although I hate Microsoft, I know I have to deal with it to eliminate it, so I am starting to look and study it with that goal in mind.
Know what the beauty of Solaris is? Well for one thing it's free. For the other, once you learn it really well, guess what? It will be easier to learn IRIX Unix, SCO Unix, AIX Unix, HP-UX Unix and Linux.
Come on now, stop being lazy, you can learn how to type in keyboard commands instead of clicking on a mouse button, can't you? | |
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| kiwini 2001-05-03, 11:19 pm |
| quote:
Very good article.
You are right, imran.
quote:
There are many Network Engineers with no certifications, but they have knowledge and hands-on experience.
Exactly. Many, Many of us. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-03, 11:58 pm |
| quote:
All you need is to play their game and get the "little pieces of paper".
I have been saying what you are saying all this time. I agree that I have to get the pieces of paper just to get past HR. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. It taps my time and resources that I could be using in better ways. That is what I am saying.
A guy I know identified, isolated, analyzed and corrected a Major Engineering flaw in a Critical Network Component that involved the inability of the CPU inside to deal with interrupts.
He also monitored Network health and was able to fine tune it by "throttling" traffic.
Where is there any Certification or any study for Certification for that type of work?
I agree with you on focusing upon my strengths on certain "key" certifications in my areas of strength. That would be Unix and Cisco.
What I am trying to relate though is that the problem with this piece of paper thing is that I see more and more convoluted description of requirements and responsibilities that are seen on job descriptions, and the type of bullshit that HR and management pulls in relation to the TRUE requirements of a position.
THAT is what I am REALLY PISSED ABOUT. So if anybody knows the right guerilla tactics and techniques on how to bypass those turkeys, please let me know. | |
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| Just give me UNIX anyday. M$ sucks. As for how to bypass the turkeys, let me know when you find a way. | |
| kwftide 2001-05-04, 6:30 am |
| "A guy I know identified, isolated, analyzed and corrected a Major Engineering flaw in a Critical Network Component that involved the inability of the CPU inside to deal with interrupts.
He also monitored Network health and was able to fine tune it by 'throttling' traffic.
Where is there any Certification or any study for Certification for that type of work?"
This area is called Network Engineering and the Cisco Certified Network Professional (and the Design - CCDP) tracks cover this well. If you don't think Cisco offers valuable certifications for both learning and marketing value, then you haven't taken the time to study them. | |
|
| I am studying them! Already got me CCNA, hopefully will have my CCNP in less than a year. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-04, 7:05 am |
| quote:
This area is called Network Engineering and the Cisco Certified Network Professional (and the Design - CCDP) tracks cover this well. If you don't think Cisco offers valuable certifications for both learning and marketing value, then you haven't taken the time to study them.
Are you sure they cover this well?
This Engineering Flaw had nothing to do with a Cisco Machine.
And guess whom that guy was?
I discovered that 3Com's 3C780 marketed internal architecture could not handle multiple interrupts simultaneously within the parameters of the microcode/cpu architecture relationship when a fully blown configuration was in effect, and there was at least one questionable link/node attached.
Within the marketed architecture, the CPU was not able to duly prioritize, engage and release the interrupts within the immediate interrupt stack. Consequently, the overflow stack could not handle the spill over also.
How was this problem corrected? In Layman's terms, I had the 3Com Software engineer rewrite the microcode.
What Piece of Paper Industry-Wide Certification did I have at that time?
None. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-04, 7:11 am |
| quote:
Just give me UNIX anyday. M$ sucks. As for how to bypass the turkeys, let me know when you find a way.
Right on bro. Ain't met a staunch Scammersoft dude yet that could really hack and crack.
Fully Blown Unix dudes, on the other hand scare the shit outta me when we have gotten together and they start talking algorithms. | |
| kwftide 2001-05-04, 7:22 am |
| I was referring to network monitoring and queueing in response to the example you posed. Learning to isolate the source of network failures is something they teach. Of course, Cisco doesn't prepare someone to re-write microcode. Is that really necessary for a network engineer in today's world??? | |
| kiwini 2001-05-04, 7:39 am |
| quote:
I was referring to network monitoring and queueing in response to the example you posed. Learning to isolate the source of network failures is something they teach. Of course, Cisco doesn't prepare someone to re-write microcode. Is that really necessary for a network engineer in today's world???
Then why did you not just reiterate the portion on throttling? If you recall, you included the cpu issue as well. Like my mentor used to say "Computers are not like horseshoes". Hence the term "Close but no Cigar".
Additionally, the point is not about rewriting microcode, the point is to specifically identify the problem, in your liaison with other engineers so that a resolution is developed expeditiously.
It makes all the difference in the world when other people know that you know what the real deal is.
If you don't, you wind up (In car salesmen's terms)getting stroked. | |
| Bobby Digital 2001-05-04, 8:17 am |
| If the certification situation is so messed up, don't get certified. Plain and simple. Certifications is BIG business. From the organizations (i.e Microsoft, CompTIA, Cisco) to the training involved (schools, training centers, books, etc.), to the testing centers, to the individual. Certification equal money and money is the bottom line.
If you have a problem with the MCSE, don't contribute to it's industry and financial growth by pursuing the certification. If you don't like Windows, buy a Mac.
While I agree with recertification, I disagree with having to recertify because the "lastest and greatest" was released. Recertification equals more money.
Organizations are not driving the certification industry (yes, it is it's own industry now), people pursuing certifications are driving it. So, it doesn't help that one minute someone is griping and complaining about certs and then the next they want everyone to know that they passed a exam. | |
| Bobby Digital 2001-05-04, 8:27 am |
| Another thing is that certfications were originally to ENHANCE your current level knowledge. Now certifications are to get a job. Somewhere down the line recruiters and HR people have misused certifications as a hiring requirement.
"If you have the ABC certification, you will get a job making $80,000." Joe (or Joanne) Public hears that, go gets his ABC and now is qualified for the job, even though he has a hard time programming his VCR. | |
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| I agree. The main thing is trying to be competent at what you do. Sometimes certifications can help you in this, sometimes they might not. Certifications themselves have formed the basis of a new industry and a lot of people get taken in. I primarily try to study at home and try use certs as a measure of my competency at what I have learned. As for as the MCSE, we all know that M$ has been following the paradigm of planned obsolescence . . . by the time you master a product, it is obsolete. But that is part of being in IT. Experience is what really counts. I agree with BD in that if you really dislike the way the cert indistry is handling things, then don't play. Where I work, I am the only one with any certifications, and there are more than a few who have more knowledge in their pinky finger than I do in my whole body about how computers and networks function. If you decide to play the cert game, do so with a degree of caution, lest you end up being prey to the hype that the cert industry keeps battering everyone with. | |
| Bobby Digital 2001-05-04, 9:41 am |
| Just imagine if a large number of people stopped pursuing the MCSE. What would Microsoft do? You don't know? Ask Novell what would happen. | |
| Daviet 2001-05-04, 10:03 am |
| I've actually come to the conclusion just a few days ago that I will Not pursue for MCSE status, The Idea of having to upgrade over and over in a short time span doesn't suit what I want to do, I guess a Few others are taking on this Manifesto. I will take Server next, and mabey 70-217 (Active Directory services) But thats it, I rather stay on the Technical side of things, I do want to be able to Upgrade, Maintain, Repair etc when dealing with windows2000 along with other OS's..Yes, Even Linux Randy 
But Figure with those three MCP's you should be able to suffice for what I need to do. When XP and what ever else comes out I will Take the first few certs but only to get a grasp of how its going to work, I rather Leave my doors Open, But at the same time have a good grasp On it all. Unless You want to become a MCSE and really understand what that means I would suggest taking a hard look at the consequences, As well as benefits.
As For me.. Well, I just want to be a Jack of all trades, Or at least know a bit about Each Trade | |
| Randy 2001-05-04, 10:36 am |
| I think I am with you there. I do need to learn some more about Win2K, but studying my buttocks off for 7 tests that will be obsolete by the time I pas number 7 is really not that appealing. I want to learn to troubleshoot networks, and to do that I need to have a solid understanding of the OS's currently in use, but this constant certify-recertify business does not really seem to be the answer to me. I'll get an MCP or two eventually, and another CNA, but I don't think I will try for the whole "MCSE rental" thing.  | |
| Bobby Digital 2001-05-04, 12:35 pm |
| A lot of people are taking that approach @ Daviet and Randy. You spend the time (and money) to pass 7 exams and then WHAM! You have to recertify. It's gonna push a lot of people away from the MCSE. That is how they control the market. | |
| Daviet 2001-05-04, 1:00 pm |
| *Sorry, Reposted something* | |
| kiwini 2001-05-04, 4:11 pm |
| Maybe my Resume is the Problem. Anybody know where I can get help for that from a Tech Writing Resume Pro or someone that won't charge an arm and a leg for that service?
Oh and of course it has to have been proven to get interviews. | |
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| imran1430 2001-05-05, 9:12 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by kiwini
Maybe my Resume is the Problem. Anybody know where I can get help for that from a Tech Writing Resume Pro or someone that won't charge an arm and a leg for that service?
Oh and of course it has to have been proven to get interviews.
I have seen people post there resume's here on this site and others have helped them. So you can keep that option open.
And the MCSE thing.. Its almost like, by the time you are done dealing with the 7 exams, and become MCSE, M$ will come out with another OS.
And, BTW, I know a couple of MCSE's myself that do not know splat about networking... I can only say it's SAD! | |
| kiwini 2001-05-05, 6:02 pm |
| I don’t know about posting my resume on the board yet. Gotta think about that.
quote:
And, BTW, I know a couple of MCSE's myself that do not know splat about networking... I can only say it's SAD!
I think it is sad, but at the same time I am glad, because their lack of competency helps to devalue the MCSE certification. Since MCSE is already dime a dozen, and MCSE is “THE” cert to braindump, combined with the constant re-cert and spend money constantly thing, this has already led to devaluation of MCSE, resulting in payscale decreases for many MCSE’s. So for you staunch Microsoft MCSE NT supporters, I say keep up the good work!
I know for a fact that MCSE certification is one of the Mandatory Requirements for certain positions within Microsoft. I know that Microsoft pays for the tests relating to that mandate. But even though Microsoft pays for the tests, I also know for a fact that some of their employees braindump the tests.
So what does that tell you about MCSE? | |
| kwftide 2001-05-06, 1:35 am |
| I have to agree with you regarding the MCSE. Microsoft needs to add a hands-on lab to make it more valuable. However, it still doesn't teach much about troubleshooting servers.
I have the NT 4 MCSE, CCNA, and CCDA. I am not going for the W2K MCSE, but instead am opting for the CCNP / CCDP tracks. Hopefully, this will allow me to work with Cisco equipment full-time rather than about half the time now. What I want in the future is the CCIE, but that is still a long ways off. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-06, 4:07 am |
| quote:
I am not going for the W2K MCSE, but instead am opting for the CCNP / CCDP tracks.
Smart man.
As I have worked in the capacity of an Engineer on an Enterprise Network, if I may suggest something here since you seem like a up and up dude and it looks like you are headed in the Network Engineering Direction:
I suggest that if you can get your hands on a Protocol Analyzer, do so and learn TCP/IP Protocol Analysis for different Technologies (Ethernet, FDDI, ATM) well. You'd be surprised at how many different kinds of Network Problems you can fix with it such as:
Broadcast Storms
Root or designated bridge problems
Bottlenecks and Overloads
Jabbering NICS
Bad Route Updates
Fragmentation Problems
Slow, No, or Incorrect Server Response
2 Nodes with the same IP
Negotiation Failure
Bad CRC circuitry
Packet/Frame Incompatibility etc.
It will also help you to learn how to throttle traffic, cause you can see the difference in response times when you alter variables such as MTU, or Cut-through vs. Store and Forward vs. Fragment Free. Believe it or not, sometimes you have throttle back traffic for optimum network operability
When you get good at TCP/IP Protocol Analysis and Troubleshooting, you will be treated like a Celebrity, and Sys Admins will stop trying to "Stroke" you like car salesmen. No joke.
I used to use Network General's "Sniffer" which was crem dela crem 5 yrs. ago. There are others like Acterna CycloneFrame, or TTC Fireberd.
TCP/IP Protocol Analysis is also the reason why I am a strong advocate of Solaris. Solaris is free to begin with, but one of my favorite Solaris utilities is the built-in Packet Capture Program called snoop.
There are free software Protocol Analyzers on the Internet also like Ethereal at http://www.ethereal.com/ or NetGroup's Analyzer at http://netgroup-serv.polito.it/netgroup/tools.html
It is also good to know and work with Port Scanners, Nslookup/DIG, and the Route command.
Take a look at this article also:
http://europe.cnn.com/2000/TECH/com...14/top.tcp.idg/
Also, W. Richard Stevens (whom passed away recently) is a Unix Networking Guru that wrote a one of a kind TCP/IP book called TCP/IP Illustrated Vol.1 isbn 0-201-63346-9 | |
| kwftide 2001-05-06, 9:37 am |
| I agree 100% with everything you just said. Network Engineering is where I am headed. I love the fact that you need an rfc to change or add anything, and that's like getting a bill through Congress. And, Cisco's IOS hardly ever changes much - just a little tweak here and there. The IOS reminds me of DOS and is kind of fun to surf around in. I can't tell you how much I've learned just by using the ? in various places (good example...setting up a router as a DHCP server - turned out it used too much RAM). Cisco's site is magnificent for finding information. Their TAC is actually helpful and it's extremely easy to escalate a case if your firm is a reseller.
Contrast the above with Microsoft and you have a lot of stressed out, pissed off networkers out there. Oh yeah, and then there's the Re-Certification every time a new flavor comes out.
When I said people should play the certification game correctly, I was not advocating the MCSE. I agree that certification is not valuable in preparation terms. It's only use is as a marketing tool.
Have you thought about a Unix certification? | |
| TW2001 2001-05-06, 11:52 am |
| "Contrast the above with Microsoft and you have a lot of stressed out, pissed off networkers out there. Oh yeah, and then there's the Re-Certification every time a new flavor comes out."
Actually you just need to know how to navigate tech net( first you need the access).Correct me if im wrong but CISCO also requires people to update their certifications 2-3 years.
NT5 is a little more than a "new flavor".Updating from NT 3.51 to NT4.0 was not required.Take a look into AD and then you would know why new skills are neccessary to support it.
Certification is used as marketing tool by the training centers. | |
| kwftide 2001-05-06, 12:22 pm |
| Sure, AD requires some updated skills but it's only a database of network objects. It includes more objects than a PDC's SAM and is replicated horizontally instead of "downhill". I've set up W2K for various customers. It's cool but what about Windows 2002 due this Fall? Do you 2000 MCSE's have to re-certify?
Yes, the CCNP / DP are only valid for 3 years, but come on, that's a long time in the networking world. Cisco's subject matter only changes when new types of technology become viable, like 802.11b (or 802.11a soon). There's Voice, VPN's, Wireless, ADSL, etc, but those have been emerging technologies - not this year's sporty, new OS model.
I think Microsoft is doing what they can to make life easier for admins with Windows XP. But where's their tech support? And before you say that's what the MCSE is for, where in the curriculum does it teach troubleshooting? When the server "Blue Screens" or something does not work as advertised, what then? Cisco is exponentially better at supporting their engineers. Comparitively, Tech Net leaves a heck of a lot to be desired.
And, it's interesting that Apple is basing its new OS on Unix. Could they become a player in the network OS market? | |
| TW2001 2001-05-06, 12:52 pm |
| Troubleshooting is where your experience comes in. As you learn a product (courses,books,etc) you really only get to familiarize yourself with it. You learn how to troubleshoot it when you work with it.
The AD is one of Microsoft emerging technologys. AD is a hierarchy provide through DNS.
No recertification is needed for XP. It will be integrated into the 2000 track.
"Could they become a player in the network OS market?"(Apple)
You are kidding me right? | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by TW2001
"Could they become a player in the network OS market?"(Apple)
You are kidding me right?
People have predicted Apple's demise for a long time . . . so far they are still with us and it doesn't look as though they are going anywhere. I hate the Mac interface, but who knows what might happen in the future? | |
| kiwini 2001-05-06, 3:11 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by kwftide
Have you thought about a Unix certification?
I already have Sun Certified Systems Administrator for Solaris 7, and I have a Formal Sun Administrator Course behind me, plus I do have Sun Unix Background, which I had to have since I worked on Sun Machines. I do not have specific administrator background, but am looking for either an entry level admin slot, or network engineer slot, since I do have specific background and experience in that.
The interesting thing about this concerning Recruiters is that since they get paid a commission in the thousands of dollars from the employer, the term "entry level" is voodoo to them. They want a sure thing with minimal effort and involvement due to their laziness and incompetency.
Oh, on the Resume thing, my background and experience is abstract and extensive. I simply don't have the time and luxury of "Throwing Darts" at the HR/Recruiter/Employer ELEPHANT. I need a job NOW. So I have decided to let a Pro take a look at it, and dish the bucks to have them deal with it.
I am checking out: http://www.technical-resumes.com/ They have a 45 day guarantee.
I have come to the conclusion that I should view my resume as a weapon, not a tool. With tools, you can fix things. I cannot fix the HR/Recruiter/Employer ELEPHANT, it is mutated beyond the point of repair. So hopefully this time, I can walk in with an ELEPHANT GUN, and put the beast out of its misery. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-06, 6:52 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TW2001
Certification is used as marketing tool by the training centers.
In the case of MCSE, Microsoft is using MCSE Certfication to market WIN2K.
NT4 MCSE holders whom want to maintain their MCSE status are forced to upgrade to WIN2K MCSE, or become de-certified. So of course the NT4 holder upgrades to WIN2K MCSE.
Some NT4 MCSE holders have already spent a great deal of time and large sums of money attaining NT4 MCSE, and cannot afford to do so again, so they wind up Braindumping WIN2K MCSE.
Others spend the cash, in the belief that Microsoft and Microsoft's WIN2K is the answer to their IT prayers.
Consequently, once the NT4 MCSE has upgraded to WIN2K MCSE status, the now WIN2K MCSE whom has spent time and money on the upgrade doesn't want all that time and money to go to waste.
So what does the now WIN2K MCSE do? He/she convinces the IT Manager or employer to upgrade to WIN2K.
Mind Control Slave Economics at its finest! | |
| kwftide 2001-05-06, 7:19 pm |
| What happens when Windows 2002 (XP) comes out in the Fall? Is it time to upgrade those skills again? I read last year that W2K was a baby step and the next release would be the "real deal". So, does this mean more tests for the MCSE?
That's why I am turning to Cisco. At least there, you learn network engineering skills which are applicable in any network environment - even Juniper (Ha!). | |
| TW2001 2001-05-06, 9:56 pm |
| Do as you wish. Remember who is the Top Dog..Has been and will continue to be.
Kiwini, what can i say? I really hope you get a job and your days turn brighter. The anger at Microsoft doesnt make any sense to me. Also any pro knows the good jobs arent advertised. Use your connections before you go banking on someone offering a 45 day guarantee.
If this is what years of Unix does to your mind( viewing hr as elephants that must be annihilated) I think I will keep my sanity.Thankyou very much. | |
| imran1430 2001-05-06, 11:52 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TW2001
If this is what years of Unix does to your mind( viewing hr as elephants that must be annihilated) I think I will keep my sanity.Thankyou very much.
It seems to me that you have not had the fun of dealing with the "everyday hr employee" yet.
Give it some time, you will be amazed of how much these UNIX pros know what they are talking about.
This guy has been in the feild for a long time. I wasn't even born when he started his IT career. Im sure he knows what he's talking about.
Just my opinion on the discussion, you can think (of course) whatever you want about someone. That's YOUR opinion. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-07, 12:09 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by TW2001
Do as you wish. Remember who is the Top Dog..Has been and will continue to be.
Kiwini, what can i say? I really hope you get a job and your days turn brighter. The anger at Microsoft doesnt make any sense to me. Also any pro knows the good jobs arent advertised. Use your connections before you go banking on someone offering a 45 day guarantee.
If this is what years of Unix does to your mind( viewing hr as elephants that must be annihilated) I think I will keep my sanity.Thankyou very much.
Top dog? It is obvious that you have never worked on an Enterprise Network. If you have, you would know the Top Dog ain't Scammersoft.
Your lack of understanding of why people are fed up with a Con Man/Thief tells me you don't keep up with current events of Scammersoft in the Courts and the issues of why they are there in the first place.
You probably don't even know about Bill Gates' deception in his meeting with IBM about DOS.
As far as being a Pro is concerned, I know just from the way you talk that the first thing you would do if someone put you on an Enterprise Network is ask someone to hold your hand, or which Mouse Button should you click.
I'd be willing to bet that if someone told you to do something easy like tune the power supplies of a Gigabit Backbone Switch Bank in Loadshare Mode, you'd give the "Deer in the Headlights" look.
Furthermore, what qualifies you to know what a good job is or isn't?
As far as HR and Elephants are concerned, it has nothing to do with one's sanity. You would know that if you paid attention in Grammar School when your English Teacher explained what a "Metaphor" is.
I know it is hard to be a leader rather than a follower, when you have not had the experience of knowing anything else but Scammersoft but you can break the Mind Control that is being exerted over you if you try.
Or maybe what you need to do is "Get your Drivers Certified". | |
| Bobby Digital 2001-05-07, 7:47 am |
| Let's all play nice here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Every IT environment is different and many of us have not had the opportunity to work in a "Enterprise Network". Believe me, different IT professional will have different opinions. It's the law of the jungle.
I do have to agree with TW2001 on one point. Microsoft applications are pretty dominate in the corporate workforce. So is UNIX. It is all about what works in that particular environment. If you look at it from the point-of-view of an end-user, you are not going to beat Microsoft's ease of use with their applications. If you look at it from the point-of-view of management it is about MONEY. If Microsoft applications can increase productivity, that's the way to go.
Some might put up an argument about Linux, but Linux's biggest problem is that there is not one version for consumers to "connect" with. When you buy or download a version of linux, you are basically getting an installer. Once it is installed, it is the same OS. Some may have minute extras, but it is still Linux. Until some produces a "Windows-like" version of Linux without all the extras stuff that the average user will not use, it will not be ready for prime-time so-to-speak. (Don't flame me Linux users. I use Linux too).
A lot of negativity about Microsoft stems from a dislike of Bill Gates. All I have to say about that is that if Bill didn't do it, someone else would have done it. I have a close friend (and IT mentor) who used to work for IBM years ago and he said that IBM was heading in the same direction as Microsoft today, but Bill just outsmarted them. It's business.
A lot of people gripe about Microsoft, but steadily continue to use their products everyday. Hardware manufacturers support the money maker which happens to be Microsoft.
Live with it or buy a Mac :-) | |
| kiwini 2001-05-07, 1:19 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bobby Digital
Let's all play nice here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
You are right about entitlement to opinion. He expressed his opinion, and I expressed mine.
quote:
Originally posted by Bobby Digital
If you look at it from the point-of-view of management it is about MONEY. If Microsoft applications can increase productivity, that's the way to go.
Since you were talking about Linux, I’ll address the above and your opinion on Linux at the same time.
You do know about Samba, right? If not, go to: http://www.zdnet.com/products/stori...,396321,00.html
So in essence, what we are saying here is that if users can connect to Windows file and Print services using Samba, no problem, right? Since we are talking about money here, that should be cool if people use Samba rather than NT due to lower cost AND better performance at the same time, right?
As far as Linux having a problem with Consumers, if you are talking SOHO, then yes. But not if you are talking Big Business. Check out this article:
http://eltoday.com/article.php3?lts...24-002-01-AC-LF
Hats off to Redhat for that one. Randy, you reading this? Maybe you can get a job at Toyota and get a company car! Hehe.
quote:
Originally posted by Bobby Digital
All I have to say about that is that if Bill didn't do it, someone else would have done it. I have a close friend (and IT mentor) who used to work for IBM years ago and he said that IBM was heading in the same direction as Microsoft today, but Bill just outsmarted them. It's business.
When you say someone else would have done it, and your friend is saying “outsmarted” within the context of what happened with IBM, are you saying that someone else would have used lies and deception to gain their goals, and that people are “smart” to lie?
quote:
Originally posted by Bobby Digital
A lot of people gripe about Microsoft, but steadily continue to use their products everyday.
Not because we want to, believe me. | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by kiwini
When you say someone else would have done it, and your friend is saying “outsmarted” within the context of what happened with IBM, are you saying that someone else would have used lies and deception to gain their goals, and that people are “smart” to lie?
I have to agree with Bobby here. People aren't ticked at M$ because they cheat and lie . . . that's part of business. People are mad at M$ because M$ is so much better at cheating and lying than they are! Politics as usual. If someone else could get away with what Gates and company have, then they would have done it. This kind of mentality is why I am a techie and not a businesman (and have no desire to be). Is it smart to lie? If you are a politician or a businessman, then yes, because that's most of what they get paid to do. I don't approve of it, but there;s nothing I can do about it either, so I don't let it eat me. | |
| Bobby Digital 2001-05-07, 1:47 pm |
| Some interesting points about Linux. And yes I do know about Samba and even run an Apache web server here, but realistically as far as ease of use and managebility goes, Microsoft is champ for the moment especially in the eyes of top-level management. Yeah, NT sucks, but 2000 from what I have used so far is leaps and bounds over NT.
Until Linux takes a larger hold on the server/network OS market and more organizations demand individuals with Linux experience, they are going to continue to choose Microsoft.
It is going to take more than a handful of companies that converting to Linux for it to gain a strong hold onto the market. In my opinion, Novell would have to be completely knocked out of the running for Linux to make a strong business showing. It's coming, but I wouldn't look for it tomorrow morning.
:-) | |
| Bobby Digital 2001-05-07, 1:54 pm |
| Look at it like this, if Bill and company hadn't come along, we'd be griping about OS/2 and Lotus. Better yet, we would be MacAddicts.
:-) | |
| TW2001 2001-05-07, 5:01 pm |
| Actually Imran I work for an international company and have had to deal with HR.Maybe I have been lucky or we just have a great HR dept.I work in a very large enterprise networking environment. I had the opportunity to go down any path I wanted to. I chose MS. Im no complete stranger to Unix as right now I administrate Veritas on the HP platform.I even interact with AIX,MVS and the mainframe.Im trained in Novell as well.So I have had a little exposure to various platforms.Im also educated enough to make my own decisions.My company plans to migrate within the next year to a windows 2000 infastructure and Ive been given the opportunity to be a part of that. So that is the direction Im heading in.
"I'd be willing to bet that if someone told you to do something easy like tune the power supplies of a Gigabit Backbone Switch Bank in Loadshare Mode, you'd give the "Deer in the Headlights" look.
I will give you that. Ive never encountered that scenario and no I wouldnt know what to do.Would I be able to rise to the challenge? Yes.
I will tell you this for fact: I know part of my success has come from my people skills and my ability to understand my limitations and be a team player.A combination of sound technical skills and the ability to work well with others has equaled success for me.
My comment was strictly an opinion. Your(kiwini) logic and metaphors kind of thew me. Not from a standpoint of understanding but of relevance.
Really, good luck to you. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-07, 6:43 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TW2001
I will tell you this for fact: I know part of my success has come from my people skills and my ability to understand my limitations and be a team player.A combination of sound technical skills and the ability to work well with others has equaled success for me.
My comment was strictly an opinion. Your(kiwini) logic and metaphors kind of thew me. Not from a standpoint of understanding but of relevance.
I realize that everyone has had their own experiences.
Many IT people I have met in the past have had the luxury of being mentored or received formal schooling before being thrown in the ocean.
Aside from Tech School, that has not been the case for me. Most of the time, I have been put into sink or swim situations with little or no support. I am actually happy about that because I have had to do almost everything by myself, which has led to creative and abstract problem solving techniques.
I have also seen the dark side of this industry where jealousy, selfishness, laziness, incompetency, lack of desire, manipulation, deceit, and other undesirable character traits have brought the downfall of an Organization.
As far as my limitations are concerned, my experience has been to dig deep and push the envelope always. With 15+ years in this industry, I have seen that anything is possible.
As far as relevance is concerned, in my past, there have been a number of instances where I have been confronted with troubleshooting scenarios where there is zero, incorrect or obsolete technical documentation, and I am unable to readily obtain documentation due to geographical isolation.
I was fortunate to have solved those problems with a combination of Engineering and creative/abstract thought processes.
Hence the use of a metaphor in relation to the HR problem. One of my colleagues calls that sort of thing Conceptual Visualization. If I said that, I know that would have sounded like baloney to many people. | |
| kwftide 2001-05-08, 10:51 pm |
| TW2001:
Let me jump in here by asking you this question...What exactly would you do if the sporty, new W2K server "blue screens"? I realize you are in an enterprise and we are talking about many servers, but the question is still valid. What support options are available to you, the network admin? With Microsoft, none. Tech Net? Please. Support Knowledgebase? Hardly ever an answer there. Calling Microsoft directly? Uh, if you want to pay someone (who doesn't even work at Microsoft) to read off of a card.
That's my beef with them. The MCSE trains you to set crap up but not to troubleshoot problems. Then, a crisis and everyone's pointing at you. What then? | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by kwftide
TW2001:
The MCSE trains you to set crap up but not to troubleshoot problems. Then, a crisis and everyone's pointing at you. What then?
That's what UNIX is for, dude! | |
| castletoth 2001-05-09, 10:04 am |
| Gentleman,
A very interesting discussion going on here. Hey kiwini, I don't like MS anymore than the next IT pro but I think you are going a little overboard. You keep talking about yourself as a "leader", but where are you leading anyone besides down the path of anger, gloom and despair. Good leaders lead people in good directions.
Yes, Billy does play dirty and has succeeded at hawking an flashy PC OS as a server product to the world. But give him his due, at the same time he has done a lot to make computer technology affordable and accessible to everybody. In fact that is how he has succeeded in getting his product out there!
Yes, MS wouldn't know innovation if it bit them in the ***. But at the same time they do a great job of noticing other peoples good ideas, assimilating those ideas and packaging them for the public. Were it not for MS acquiring, integrating, and marketing them many good ideas would have remained in obscurity and never made it to wide distribution. | |
| Randy 2001-05-09, 10:11 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by castletoth
Yes, MS wouldn't know innovation if it bit them in the ***. But at the same time they do a great job of noticing other peoples good ideas, assimilating those ideas and packaging them for the public. Were it not for MS acquiring, integrating, and marketing them many good ideas would have remained in obscurity and never made it to wide distribution.
As much as I would like to disagree with that statement, I know that it is true. They're one of the reasons for the prevalence of PC use today. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-09, 11:50 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by castletoth
A very interesting discussion going on here. Hey kiwini, I don't like MS anymore than the next IT pro but I think you are going a little overboard. You keep talking about yourself as a "leader", but where are you leading anyone besides down the path of anger, gloom and despair. Good leaders lead people in good directions.
Anger, gloom, and depair? Oh brother. Gimme a break! True success comes not from taking the path of least resistance (MCSE) but from seeking the truth combined with hard work and true skill (Unix, CCIE, RHCE, Network Security, Programming) that many times requires creative, innovative and abstract thought processes, which ends up paying huge dividends.
This is about developing and increasing one's aptitude (Unix, CCIE, RHCE, Network Security, Programming) so that one can catch fish and feed themselves, rather than to have an entity hold their hand and feed them (MCSE)
I am merely trying to help people from costly (MCSE=Spending a lot of $$$$) mistakes (MCSE=an already devalued certification due to braindumping, overexposure and other factors)translating into small ROI (Return on Investment)
As far as your insult on leadership is concerned, I view it as a lack of insight into my motivations.
I am not just talking about about technology here, I am talking about people and politics in relation to individual goals.
I am for the little guy here, not the Corporate Entity or their representatives. I am for the guy in the trenches busting his butt and receiving little or no reward, the guy whom other people take credit for his accomplishments, the guy taken advantage by his peers or supervisors for his abilities.
I am exposing a side of the industry from my own experiences that people have not experienced, or don't want to talk about.
Many people don't even recognize when they are being manipulated.
If I can help just one person out of all of this, I'll have made my point. | |
| Bobby Digital 2001-05-09, 1:03 pm |
| Two thumbs up @ castletoth. You don't have to love Microsoft, but at least give them their due. Do you think that the IT industry would be as strong as it is today without Microsoft? Would there be PCs in a large majority of American homes without Microsoft? Think about it.
:-) | |
| castletoth 2001-05-09, 1:10 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by kiwini
Anger, gloom, and despair? Oh brother. Gimme a break! True success comes not from taking the path of least resistance (MCSE) but from seeking the truth combined with hard work and true skill (Unix, CCIE, RHCE, Network Security, Programming) that many times requires creative, innovative and abstract thought processes, which ends up paying huge dividends.
kiwini,
It is interesting how you paint anyone who dares disagree with you as an uncreative/non-innovative zombie who follows the path of least resistance.
The fact is I would say that I generally agree with you when it comes to MS and the IT industry. I don't however agree that there is NOTHING good about MS (as pointed out in my previous post).
What I was really trying to get at with my comment about leadership is that you're not doing anyone any favors by flaming them or MS for that matter. Good leadership encourages people to change what they can, not gripe about what they can't. To be thankful for what they have, not discontent about everything else.
MS will be around for a looong time, and in fact learning their technology is a great way for someone to get started in this industry. I know it was for me (back in the days of DOS). I have since moved on to Solaris, then Linux, then Web development, and now I teach middleware technologies.
But if someone chooses not to move on, so what! There are more important things in life that which computing platform you choose to work or develop on. | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by Bobby Digital
Do you think that the IT industry would be as strong as it is today without Microsoft? Would there be PCs in a large majority of American homes without Microsoft? Think about it.
I must agree as well. The use of computers by non-experts on the desktop is what gives us out jobs. And although I am not MS fan, I must admit they have done more to bring computers to the population at large than anyone else has. | |
| Bobby Digital 2001-05-10, 7:58 am |
| You hit it right on the nose Randy. It's all about the users. Without the end-users, a lot of technicians would not have jobs. It's not about what you like or dislike, it's about what is best for the network AND the users.
:-) | |
| TW2001 2001-05-11, 7:56 am |
| Kiwini, its hard to say exactly what the course of action would be when a blue screen occurs. The WIN2K is a much more stable platform than NT4. I would have to evaluate the situation based on facts present. Then derive a solution. MS support in my environment is top notch. We can escalate to the tier we need to be at immediately. I have never had to deal with someone reading a card to me(in the enterprise of course.)
MCSE classes/training prepare and familirize you with the technology.Working with the product is where you learn how to troubleshoot it. The Certification is a validation (for an employer) of a proffesionals skill set. They want to see it.Then they want you to prove it. If someone wants to pay me to do that then Im all for it. Its a benefit.(paid training).In my employers eyes its valuable. For an experienced IT pro a certification retains all of its validity. For the newbie its a different story thats not what we are dicussing. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-12, 12:37 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TW2001
Kiwini, its hard to say exactly what the course of action would be when a blue screen occurs.
I don't understand why are you addressing me on this issue, when it was kwftide that brought it up.
As far as you and I am concerned, I'll be frank in stating that my understanding of your staunch support of M$$$ comes from the "Opportunity" that you have been given.
Question is, what happens if for some political reason that "Opportunity" vanishes, and you are back in the "Regular Joe" mode?
I am not saying that your manager or employer is doing it, but I have seen employers dangle things in front of people, then for whatever reason, the "thing" evaporates.
I am actually thinking about your benefit here, and with that in mind, this is my recommendation of what a person's skillset should include so one can go almost anywhere:
1. Cabling technology-Copper(STP, UTP, RG) and Fiber(Single Mode, Multi-Mode)
2. TCP/IP protocol analysis-invaluable to troubleshooting problems at all 7 OSI layers.
3. A scalable, enterprise level OS/NOS (Unix)flexible enough where you can migrate from one to many others( Solaris, IRIX, HP-UX, AIX, SCO, BSD, MacOS X, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux ) that demands a closer level of interaction.
4. CCDP/CCNP/CCIE- Cisco dominates the router/switch industry
Maybe a person can't be highly proficient at all 4, but I think 3 out of 4 is attainable. | |
| kiwini 2001-05-12, 1:02 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by castletoth
Good leadership encourages people to change what they can, not gripe about what they can't. To be thankful for what they have, not discontent about everything else.
From what you are saying, things cannot be changed, so throw up your hands and lump it. To that I say "Baloney".
With your viewpoint on leadership, where would this country be today if not for our independence from GB? Where would the African Americans be were it not for the Civil Rights Movement? Where would laborers be today without Unions? Would Women be voting today? Would there be as many Women in top executive positions today?
Change is painful. Some change is for the better, some not. You think all those changes I mentioned above did not start with some form of discontent? Think again.
Why not start thinking "Can Do" instead of "Cannot Do"? | |
| Forsaken 2003-06-26, 10:50 am |
| I agree! Yeah!!! | |
| bearing 2003-06-26, 11:02 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Forsaken
I agree! Yeah!!!
Deja, would you mind hiding the keys to your time machine... | |
| tkelley91 2003-06-26, 2:56 pm |
| Deja..before you put the keys away.. I have some unfinnished business back in high that I would love to straighten out! |
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