| Author |
Glorification of a humble angel
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| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 10:03 am |
| I don't know much about Mother Teresa. But, what I do know is that she epitomizes the very best that a human being can be. It doesn't get any better than she. What is most spiritual about her in my humble opinion is that she served her creator by serving his children. She thereby glorified her creator and served the least among his creation. Her humility was absolute. What a shame that a man in Rome wants to take that and raise it up. To glorify her is not to understand her. | |
| thebonzodog 2003-10-19, 11:14 am |
| ...and an even greater shame that you choose to use such a person to stir up controvercy. | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 11:16 am |
| I am not using anybody. I am expressing an opinion that a person commited to humility and the glorification of the one she worshipped should not be treated posthumously in a manner completely divergent from the way she led her life. It is not my fault that man is obsessed with the idolizattion of man even when the object of said idolization is the personification of humility.
I am not well versed on scripture, but I do recall reading something about a situation in which some disciples entered a village and the people started to worship them. They got very supset, ripped their clothes, and admonished the crowd that it is only their creator that they should worship. | |
| thebonzodog 2003-10-19, 11:33 am |
| There's a big difference between honouring somebody's work after they have died compared to honouring it while they are still alive.
In my opinion if you have issues with The Pope and you wish to debate it you should start a thread about him. | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 11:38 am |
| I agree 1 million per cent with the idea of honoring Mother Teresa. There is a big difference between honoring a great human being and declaring someone a saint, building statues of that person so that millions can bow down before it.
My disagreement is solely with the issue of glorification. I believe that the life of this wonderful treasure exemplifies that glorification is the last thing she was seeking. | |
| thebonzodog 2003-10-19, 1:16 pm |
| Given the choice to spend money on a statue or spend money on food or medicine for the poor then I would agree. But we can spend money on both.
Mother Theresa would have worshipped at many statues of Saints in her time, and seen them for the benefit they can be; as a source of inspiration for millions, for hundreds of years to come. | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 2:45 pm |
| It would be presumptuous of me to dissect Mother Teresa's theology. Indeed it is unimportant to me. She was probably the best person of the last 100 years. If you want to argue theology, I would cite the 10 commandments proscription against graven images. I have already referred to scripture dealing with the mandate to worship only the creator. It is not my purpose to debate theology because there would be no end to that debate. My point is merely humanistic. I believe with all my heart that Teresa was profoundly spiritual and, as such, profoundly humble. To me, as an objective dispassionate observer, it seems that she is being lifted up. The lifting should be in the hands of the one who blessed her with her gifts, not people seeking to idolize her. | |
| thebonzodog 2003-10-19, 5:12 pm |
| I wasn't beiong presumptious, if that's what you thought.
She was a Nun. Nun's spend a lot of time praying in front of statues. They also pray to different Saints, as do a lot of ordinary Catholics. They even have a whole prayer dedicated to Mary.
The thing is, in 100 years time, when Pope John Paul II will be just another name in the history books, Mother Theresa's name and inspiration will live on. Where's the harm in that?
By the way Tech Ranger, it is nice being able to have a sensible, friendly discussion on this, so please don't think I'm merely being argumentative.  | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 5:39 pm |
| If this were a purely theological debate regarding sainthood in general, then I would strenuously argue certain things. I do not wish to do that because I understand wholeheartedly that regardless of what I think, millions of people are going to believe in that doctrine. The point I would like to make is that Mother Teresa, in my opinion, is a human being who dedicated her entire life to the notion of lessening herself in order that others' pain would be alleviated. John Paul, on the other hand, has spent the last 25 years being carried around like a glorious king. If it were he facing cannonization, I would not be making this argument because his life is consistent with being glorified and idolized in death. He is the person who could probably win the "Least Humble Person" award. To me it is a profound irony and a tragic shame that the person who could qualify as the most humble person of the twentieth century is essentially having that humility wrested from her posthumously. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2003-10-19, 7:49 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
If this were a purely theological debate regarding sainthood in general, then I would strenuously argue certain things. I do not wish to do that because I understand wholeheartedly that regardless of what I think, millions of people are going to believe in that doctrine. The point I would like to make is that Mother Teresa, in my opinion, is a human being who dedicated her entire life to the notion of lessening herself in order that others' pain would be alleviated. John Paul, on the other hand, has spent the last 25 years being carried around like a glorious king. If it were he facing cannonization, I would not be making this argument because his life is consistent with being glorified and idolized in death. He is the person who could probably win the "Least Humble Person" award. To me it is a profound irony and a tragic shame that the person who could qualify as the most humble person of the twentieth century is essentially having that humility wrested from her posthumously.
I sense you have a lot of negativity towards the Pope Tech? | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 7:53 pm |
| I am dealing specifically with the Pope's plans for this wonderful person named Mother Teresa. I do not want to get into a general discussion about the Pope. He has done a lot of good things. I just think that a life spent serving the creator by serving all humanity in the most intensly humble of ways shouldn't have to end by being turned into an icon.
If I am the only one bothered by the scenes coming out of Rome, then maybe it's my problem. I don't know, but it just doesn't seem right.
By the way, they said on the news that John Paul has made more "Saints" than all other Popes combined. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2003-10-19, 8:04 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
I am dealing specifically with the Pope's plans for this wonderful person named Mother Teresa. I do not want to get into a general discussion about the Pope. He has done a lot of good things. I just think that a life spent serving the creator by serving all humanity in the most intensly humble of ways shouldn't have to end by being turned into an icon.
There is a lot of Dogma attached to the Catholic Church, thats just the way it is, why get upset about it? | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 8:06 pm |
| You're right. After all, if that's the way Catholics want it, it is not my business. I guess I just felt that Teresa belongs to all of humanity, not just that religion. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2003-10-19, 8:09 pm |
| Er.. Well she was Catholic wasnt she? | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 8:12 pm |
| NO. She was much more than that. Ask Muslims and Hindus whether they don't feel that she was as much one of them as she was a Catholiic. I believe that this person transcended the usual lines of demarcation. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2003-10-19, 8:18 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
NO. She was much more than that. Ask Muslims and Hindus whether they don't feel that she was as much one of them as she was a Catholiic. I believe that this person transcended the usual lines of demarcation.
Sounds a little like your glorifying her also, | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 8:21 pm |
| If describing her as profoundly selfless, humble, and servile is tantamount to glorification, then I plead guilty. I am not making a statue of her, putting it on my nightstand and talking to her. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2003-10-19, 8:26 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by thebonzodog
Mother Theresa would have worshipped at many statues of Saints in her time, and seen them for the benefit they can be; as a source of inspiration for millions, for hundreds of years to come.
Agreed | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 8:29 pm |
| I hope you hear that, Moses. You should not have gotten upset. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2003-10-19, 8:31 pm |
| Good night Tech,
Have a Safe and prosperous week at work. | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-19, 8:33 pm |
| Good night. | |
| jojogun 2003-10-20, 8:16 am |
| she is an icon that jusifys poverty,
i.e. poverty is o k we have mther tressa | |
| Papiya 2003-10-20, 8:35 am |
| I met here once. She was not perfect, but did have a good heart. As for making her a saint, I am with TR in this, but then again I am not a Catholic either. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-20, 10:13 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
If describing her as profoundly selfless, humble, and servile is tantamount to glorification, then I plead guilty. I am not making a statue of her, putting it on my nightstand and talking to her.
The statues are used to comfort. People shouldn't worship saints, they pray for their help and aid. Thats not worship. It is displaying the most sacred the religion has to offer. Also, Mother Theresa was baptized a Catholic and became a nun thru the Catholic church, so I would imagine this would be an honor for her. When she was a live she served God and her faith, now its time for them to pay her back in the only way they can, thru immortalizing her and her message. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2003-10-20, 11:30 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
I hope you hear that, Moses. You should not have gotten upset.
I think Christians should be a little more Ecumenical by nature ( without having to compromise their fundamental beliefs ).
I dont think praying to a statue of M Theresa, is the same as worshiping an Idols or Icons of other Gods. Besides, why Judge a fellow believer Tech? Isn't their something in the Bible about that. | |
| Hippo 2003-10-20, 12:00 pm |
| Judge not, lest ye be judged
Matthew 7:1 | |
| thebonzodog 2003-10-20, 1:54 pm |
| Interesting that one, I wonder how judges feel about it? | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-20, 2:35 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by thebonzodog
Interesting that one, I wonder how judges feel about it?
Probably like $hit. I mean, how would you feel if you found out you were going to hell?  | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-20, 4:05 pm |
| If my remarks are tantamount to my judging anyone, or if I offended anyone, please accept my sincerest apologies. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-20, 4:49 pm |
| How was TR judging anyone? He sounded as though he were complimenting to me! | |
| thebonzodog 2003-10-20, 5:41 pm |
| I don't think anybody's been offended. I certainly haven't been Techranger. As I said before, its nice to have a discussion about it. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2003-10-21, 12:01 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
If my remarks are tantamount to my judging anyone, or if I offended anyone, please accept my sincerest apologies.
No apologies necesary, im not offended in any way, besides makes a change from discussing politics. I happen to share your views about worshiping and glorifying saints, M Theresa and Mary etc etc instead of worshiping God. I grew up in the Catholic Church and heard people discribing the Pope as 'God on earth', scary I know, but that was how it was in the RC church then, but things are changing slowly and they are comming round to the 21st century. Perhaps my Anglo-Irish background makes me a little touchy on the whole secterian thing.
Lo Siento | |
| enforcer 2003-10-21, 6:32 am |
| Hmmmmm, a religious discussion eh?
Ok here's my tuppence worth (from an atheist born into a catholic family, well not a very religious one).
anyway, I can see where TR is coming from, and although for not the same reason as him agree that making MT a saint so soon after her death, actually harms the whole sainthood notion.
When I was a child I saw saints as beings that were above the normal human, they were superior. Now if someone I knew(not personally but knew of in my lifetime, such as MT) is made a saint, it doesn't seem so special. Now in 50 - 100 years time, if she is made a saint, then to the people of that time the illusion is carried on.
Note I am not saying that MT does not deserve to become a saint, but I think it is too soon, and as far as I am concearned the ILLUSION that saints are/were superior has been dispelled.
sorry for the rambling. |
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