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Home > Archive > General Discussion > October 2003 > What would $87 billion buy?
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What would $87 billion buy?
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| Supertech 2003-10-15, 8:41 am |
| WHAT WOULD $87 BILLION BUY?
This year, the US budget deficit has climbed to about $500 billion- about 5% of GDP. That is more than the GDP of all but 17 countries
in the world. The recent tax cut will cost the federal govt. about $300 billion this year alone. In addition, Congress is now considering whether to spend $ 87 billion in Iraq - $67 billion for support of US troops, plus about $20 billion for re-building Iraq. That's not a loan - it's a "grant", paid by US taxpayers..
$87 billion is more than the GDP of all but 40 countries in the world. To bring some perspective to that number, NEWSWEEK has imagined what the federal government might do in other key policy areas if it had $87 billion lying around.
Here are some real-life comparisons of what $87 billion means:
* More than the combined total of all US State budget deficits
* Two years worth of all US unemployment benefits
* Enough to pay the 3.3 million people who have lost jobs $26,363 each
* More than double the total budget for Homeland Security.
* 87 times the amount the Government spends on after-school programs
* More than 10 times all Govt. spending on Environmental Protection
* Hire more than 2 million new teachers, or new police officers,
or new firefighters, nationwide
* 58 times the proposed federal funding for community health centers
Think about it. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-15, 9:01 am |
| Looks like this would be something that the people would vote on in a democracy. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-15, 9:28 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
Looks like this would be something that the people would vote on in a democracy.
If you know of a democracy, please, fill me in because I dont' thing any exist. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-15, 9:29 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
If you know of a democracy, please, fill me in because I dont' thing any exist.
Personally I don't know of any, but was just saying that in a hypothetical democracy, the people should decide whether the government is allowed to rob them or not. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-15, 9:47 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
Personally I don't know of any, but was just saying that in a hypothetical democracy, the people should decide whether the government is allowed to rob them or not.
They do. Its called election day.  | |
| Papiya 2003-10-15, 9:52 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
They do. Its called election day.
Elections are one thing, but when it comes to really big decisions, shouldn't the people be allowed a direct vote rather than leaving it to other people? Besides, all politicians are crooks anyway, they can vote themselves raises. How many others have that privilege? | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-15, 9:57 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
Elections are one thing, but when it comes to really big decisions, shouldn't the people be allowed a direct vote rather than leaving it to other people? Besides, all politicians are crooks anyway, they can vote themselves raises. How many others have that privilege?
In a sense I agree and in a sense I don't. Politicans are crooks, can't argue that one.
In a Republic, people elect officials so that these officials can make decisions on their behalf. Now I do think in theory we should have this ability but it's just not practical to try and poll 80 Million registered voters. ( I'm just guessing at this number) ever time a decision needs to be made that involves large amounts of money. Besides on this issue, I believe that the majority of Americans would vote yes on the money. Especially since it will be mostly benefiting our troops. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-15, 10:07 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
In a sense I agree and in a sense I don't. Politicans are crooks, can't argue that one.
In a Republic, people elect officials so that these officials can make decisions on their behalf. Now I do think in theory we should have this ability but it's just not practical to try and poll 80 Million registered voters. ( I'm just guessing at this number) ever time a decision needs to be made that involves large amounts of money. Besides on this issue, I believe that the majority of Americans would vote yes on the money. Especially since it will be mostly benefiting our troops.
And if a decision is unusually important to you and your country's economy, wouldn't it make sense to make that decision yourself? It is not practical to poll the people for everything, but this is a huge chunk of money that will be spent for probably no good reason when it could be put into the economy. But then I am forgetting that Americans like others to make their important decisions for them. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-15, 10:26 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
And if a decision is unusually important to you and your country's economy, wouldn't it make sense to make that decision yourself? It is not practical to poll the people for everything, but this is a huge chunk of money that will be spent for probably no good reason when it could be put into the economy. But then I am forgetting that Americans like others to make their important decisions for them.
I don't think anyone likes decisions being made for them, but your talking about rewriting the constitution. We were setup as a Republic, and your talking about changing that. In this case the Majority of Americans support giving that money to our troops. I have no doubt about that what so ever. As for the 15 billion dollar AIDS package to Africa, I wouldn't let that money go, but again thats why we elect officials. If they can't make money decisions then we don't need the House of Representatives anymore. We elect government to make these decisions for us. Now I don't think any elected government position should be a full-time job. Career politicians are the ones that screw us. If it was some average guy going away for a couple of weeks to vote on issues to send thru congress then I think we would have the say that we were intended to have.
The whole elected officials thing would exclude the President obviously, but in the same sense we have full-time politicians in order to make things happen "quicker". | |
| Papiya 2003-10-15, 11:12 am |
| Aren't all politicians "career politicians"? I think most Americans will believe whatever the news tells them to believe, so its all kind of academic. However voting on specific propositions which concern the people more than others I do not see as being unconstitutional. War funds morte neccesary than medical funds? That's America for you! | |
| Forsaken 2003-10-15, 11:42 am |
| A friend of mine in college did the same thing, but he estimated Bill gates at 60 billion and broke it down to the nitty gritty on how he could buy a third world country, hire mercenaries and be considered a threat in the world with the power he could get from the money | |
| prezbedard 2003-10-15, 11:43 am |
| I have an idea. Bring the troops home. Bush is digging himself into a bigger and bigger hole. He needs to get international support and has already shot himself in the foot on that one. He should just get on his knees and beg but we all know thats not going to happen. I feel no safer now that we conquered the all mighty Iraq. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-15, 12:54 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
Aren't all politicians "career politicians"? I think most Americans will believe whatever the news tells them to believe, so its all kind of academic. However voting on specific propositions which concern the people more than others I do not see as being unconstitutional. War funds morte neccesary than medical funds? That's America for you!
Originally, in the US anyway, politicians were farmers and lawyers who would travel to Phila for a couple of weeks and do wht had to be done. They weren't always full-time.
Medical fund for who Africa? The people that have AIDS are going to die. We shouldn't send them cache we should give Trojan the cash and send them some condoms. Its a shame that these people are dying, but regardless of what money we send they will still die. $$ spent on education would be more acceptable.
See, supporting our troops, regaurdless of whether you agree with the war or not, is always more important then the health concerns of other countries.
Your damn right that's American! | |
| me? I dunno... 2003-10-15, 1:00 pm |
| quote:
See, supporting our troops, regaurdless of whether you agree with the war or not, is always more important then the health concerns of other countries.
evidently more important than the health concerns of your own country either
be a nazi, support the military no matter what heinous folly it is being utilized for...
first we take austria, they deserve it...
then we take czechoslovakia, they deserve it...
then we take poland, we will defend the homeland
then we take...
support the troops regardless...
heil hitler! | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-15, 1:14 pm |
| The health concerns here are dealt with every year. They suck. They really do. But I have family in the Marine Corps, and selling them out is not an option. Bush won't bring the troops home. In America supporting our children, parents, and brothers\sisters is important too us. So making sure that they have what they need is top priority for most Americans. If supporting your loved ones is Nazi-ish then thats fine. Bush will be gone within the next 5 years, and most likely a Democrat will take over. They'll cut military spending and cause the next Republican to beef it up. Its a never ending cycle. Personally, I'll be voting independent this next election. I just don't have the stomache to vote Dem or Rep anymore. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-15, 2:01 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
See, supporting our troops, regaurdless of whether you agree with the war or not, is always more important then the health concerns of other countries.
Your damn right that's American!
So supporting Hitler and the troops gassing the Jews and Gypsies would have been the "German" thing to do even if they disagreed with the Holocaust, correct? You'd make a great Nazi. Unfortunately, so would most other Americans from what I see. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-15, 2:38 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
So supporting Hitler and the troops gassing the Jews and Gypsies would have been the "German" thing to do even if they disagreed with the Holocaust, correct? You'd make a great Nazi. Unfortunately, so would most other Americans from what I see.
Thanks for cluing me in. I didn't know we were commiting genocide in Iraq. Must have missed that part.
As for my comments about supporting my family and that of my country men, I didn't support Hitler, I'm not here to support Bush, I'm here to support my troops. Simple and plain.
If that bothers you then I feel bad for you. I'd hate to see the Indian public leave their troops hanging. | |
| sbragib 2003-10-16, 4:23 am |
| Mostly I stay out of Politics and Religion, but here I will say:
All people SHOULD support their troops, but if some politician is putting them at unnecessary risk, THAT politician should GO | |
| Papiya 2003-10-16, 7:46 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
Thanks for cluing me in. I didn't know we were commiting genocide in Iraq. Must have missed that part.
As for my comments about supporting my family and that of my country men, I didn't support Hitler, I'm not here to support Bush, I'm here to support my troops. Simple and plain.
If that bothers you then I feel bad for you. I'd hate to see the Indian public leave their troops hanging.
And if your troops were committing genocide, would you still support them? If you support people who are doing what is wrong, then you are no different than those who supported Hitler and his troops. You completely disetepped the question, by the way. TROOPS committed the Holocaust, Hitler would have had no power without them. So were the Germans right in "supporting their troops"? After all, the rhetoric that Hitler used was quite similar to what any nationlist uses . . . freedom, love, hope and propsperity. Same shot, different country.
If India attacks a country that has done them nothing and poses no threat, then I certainly hope we *would* leave them hanging because that is what they deserve. If an American man raped a Japanese woman, does it make it Ok just because the man is American? For you, apparently it does. It is you the one who needs sympathy, not me. I am at least blessed with a conscience, unlike you. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-16, 8:38 am |
| This may be a hard question or concept for you, but, like I said, I support my troops. If that is Nazi-ish then so be it. You had stated if my troops were committing genocide. They aren't. So until they do I will support my troops. You putting false situations to get an answer isn't going to help prove your point. Our troops are not putting people in ovens, showering them with acid, or preforming weird experiments on them. I don't claim that anyone is innocent in the situation. You may be able to allow your countrymen/women go to their deaths without the proper supplies, but I can't.
I just want to let you and me?i dunno know that all Americans are Nazi's. We have Hitler pictures in our bedrooms, even the Jews. We turn them around when we have company. If you ever see an American flag in a US citizens house, look behind it and you'll see the Nazi emblem.  | |
| Papiya 2003-10-16, 8:51 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
This may be a hard question or concept for you, but, like I said, I support my troops. If that is Nazi-ish then so be it. You had stated if my troops were committing genocide. They aren't. So until they do I will support my troops. You putting false situations to get an answer isn't going to help prove your point. Our troops are not putting people in ovens, showering them with acid, or preforming weird experiments on them. I don't claim that anyone is innocent in the situation. You may be able to allow your countrymen/women go to their deaths without the proper supplies, but I can't.
I just want to let you and me?i dunno know that all Americans are Nazi's. We have Hitler pictures in our bedrooms, even the Jews. We turn them around when we have company. If you ever see an American flag in a US citizens house, look behind it and you'll see the Nazi emblem.
Once again, you have completely evaded the question. Would you support your troops if they were doing such things? Your statements above indicate that you would support your troops even if you disagreed with what they were doing simply because they are your troops, which is the same mentality that the Nazis used when invading other countries. I am sure that you would, because as an American, nothing you ar your country can do is wrong. You can bomb and murder people, invade other countries and none of this is wrong because your only morality is the primitive mentality of the tribe . . . whatever your tribe does is good, and fcuk everyone else, right?
Apparently this is a bit much for a simpleton like you to grasp, but non-Americans are humans as well.
Your troops would have no trouble whatsoever committing genocide for oil, I am sure. And I am also sure that you would support them all the way for doing so.
Nazi? Lemming is more like it. | |
| Tech Ranger 2003-10-16, 9:18 am |
| I don't think you people get it! Me I Dunno and Papiya have this obsession with Nazism. Everything they disagree with is painted by them as akin to Nazism. There is nothing you can do to cure them of this Hitlerian delusion. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-16, 9:33 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
I don't think you people get it! Me I Dunno and Papiya have this obsession with Nazism. Everything they disagree with is painted by them as akin to Nazism. There is nothing you can do to cure them of this Hitlerian delusion.
TR, when mindmesh says that he supports his troops even when he disagrees with them, how is that any different from what went on in World War II when many Germans who may have disagreed with murdering Jews did it anyway out of "support for their country"? How is that different from segregating blacks from whites and not allowing them the same liberties just because your government tells you to? The comparison arises because the situations are so similar.
And I notice that we never get any really direct answers. Answer the above question instead of painting us as mere fanatics and maybe you'll understand a bit better. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-16, 9:38 am |
| You know you've frustrated someone when they resort to name calling. Wow, Papiya, I would have expected more from you.
As for your question. I explained above your throwing nonsense questions out there. I don't know how I would feel about our troops, had they committed atrocities. I would be torn. I never said you weren't humans, but my family comes first. Simple and plain. I'm spelling it out for you. I'm sorry people die. I can't stop that, but I'd much rather it be someone else then my family. That may sound ignorant to you, but I love my family. I never killed anyone, knowingly anyway. Your throwing, ill contrived senerio's out there to try and prove a point is humorous. You resorting to name calling is unexpected. I didn't even prevoke you and you attacked. Hmm, makes you think, who can relate to GB more, me or you.
Tech Ranger, I completely agree with you. It's easy to call someone names, but proving a legitimate point is harder, especially when everything is hypothetical. I care for the troops out there, and surprisingly this is hard for some to understand. This is the only thing I've said in this thread and I've been attacked for it, from some I had begun to respect. What can you do?  | |
| Papiya 2003-10-16, 9:47 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
You know you've frustrated someone when they resort to name calling. Wow, Papiya, I would have expected more from you.
As for your question. I explained above your throwing nonsense questions out there. I don't know how I would feel about our troops, had they committed atrocities. I would be torn. I never said you weren't humans, but my family comes first. Simple and plain. I'm spelling it out for you. I'm sorry people die. I can't stop that, but I'd much rather it be someone else then my family. That may sound ignorant to you, but I love my family. I never killed anyone, knowingly anyway. Your throwing, ill contrived senerio's out there to try and prove a point is humorous. You resorting to name calling is unexpected. I didn't even prevoke you and you attacked. Hmm, makes you think, who can relate to GB more, me or you.
Tech Ranger, I completely agree with you. It's easy to call someone names, but proving a legitimate point is harder, especially when everything is hypothetical. I care for the troops out there, and surprisingly this is hard for some to understand. This is the only thing I've said in this thread and I've been attacked for it, from some I had begun to respect. What can you do?
I think I have made my point clear a number of times. If someone does something that is wrong, then it is wrong regardless of who they are, not whose side you are on. Caring for your troops is one thing, but I asked a simple question and you have yet to offer an answer. If your troops would engage in genocide would you suppor them merely because they are your troops? According to your above statements, that sounds exactly like what you are saying. And my scenarios are not at all ill-contrived, but relevant to a lot of people. If my father did something wrong, then he should go to prison. He should not get out of his punishment merely because he ius related to me. This is not, I would think, that difficult a concept to grasp. Espceially coming from TR, who seems to regard moral relativism as wrong.
Now, unless you really are dense, can you answer my question???
Where is the line where you would draw in the sand and say "I no longer support my troops because what they are doing is immoral"? Or does such a line exist for you?
I am sure others love their families as well. But your obvious moral corruptness does not consider the pain of anyone else.
Not that the Iraqis were ever threatening your families to start with ... | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-16, 10:15 am |
| Again with the name calling. I may be dense, but I'm not weak minded. As for your question, there is no set line. If a situation arises then I will reconsider my standing. For some people, there is no time when you stop caring or say it is OK to let them die I don't agree with them. I support my troops because they don't want to be there, but they are. I support my troops because they didn't ask for this hand, and I support my troops because they are my family. If my father killed someone then he does deserve to go to jail, but I'm not going to send him. I would kill him myself before I sent him to jail. Thats because I love him. I don't expect you to get that, I really don't, but see I'd rather see him dead then suffering no matter what the situation.
Question for you. If your kids or family were sent to war for something you deemed as wrong, they happened to kill people in defense or assault, do you stop supporting them? Is it OK for you country to send your children to war and let them die because you don't agree with the situation?
Also, I have resorted to name calling a couple of times in the past, but usually when directly prevoked. Normally, I try to avoid that. Like I said earlier, I'm sure you can relate to GB's decisions a lot better then myself, as you've displayed the attitude that you slam him for having. Attacking someone with no provocation. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-16, 10:23 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
Again with the name calling. I may be dense, but I'm not weak minded. As for your question, there is no set line. If a situation arises then I will reconsider my standing. For some people, there is no time when you stop caring or say it is OK to let them die I don't agree with them. I support my troops because they don't want to be there, but they are. I support my troops because they didn't ask for this hand, and I support my troops because they are my family. If my father killed someone then he does deserve to go to jail, but I'm not going to send him. I would kill him myself before I sent him to jail. Thats because I love him. I don't expect you to get that, I really don't, but see I'd rather see him dead then suffering no matter what the situation.
Question for you. If your kids or family were sent to war for something you deemed as wrong, they happened to kill people in defense or assault, do you stop supporting them? Is it OK for you country to send your children to war and let them die because you don't agree with the situation?
Also, I have resorted to name calling a couple of times in the past, but usually when directly prevoked. Normally, I try to avoid that. Like I said earlier, I'm sure you can relate to GB's decisions a lot better then myself, as you've displayed the attitude that you slam him for having. Attacking someone with no provocation.
If my children attacked others in offense or assault then they would be no more than killers themselves, and deserve to be treated as such. That is called morality. I am sorry I called you a simpleton, but to me someone with no moral scruples leaves me little respect for their points of view.
I have plenty of provacation, as you put it, since I am not an American and thus am a much more lowly form of life than you. Less worthy of life, respect and anything that Americans might deem dangerous. Since you believe in supporting those who do wrong simply because they are "your kind" I don't see why you can't have sympathy for the terrorists you claim to despise since they think the same way. Killing innocents cause your master says its what you should do? Fine with me! Sounds like the kind of brainwashing suicide bombers are inculcated with.
Although your replies disappoint me, they do not surprise me, as I think that, as I have mentioned before, nearly all of you Americans regard all non-Americans as dogs to be trampled on at will for whatever purposes you deem fit. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-16, 10:54 am |
| quote:
I have plenty of provacation, as you put it, since I am not an American and thus am a much more lowly form of life than you. Less worthy of life, respect and anything that Americans might deem dangerous.
Was never said. I said I'd rather see someone else die then my family.That is honest not lack of morality. Never said the life was less valuable. Your interpretting my comments like Osama interprets the Koran.
quote:
Since you believe in supporting those who do wrong simply because they are "your kind" I don't see why you can't have sympathy for the terrorists you claim to despise since they think the same way. Killing innocents cause your master says its what you should do? Fine with me! Sounds like the kind of brainwashing suicide bombers are inculcated with.
I'll let you believe thats what was meant by my words because it seems to comfort you.
quote:
Although your replies disappoint me, they do not surprise me, as I think that, as I have mentioned before, nearly all of you Americans regard all non-Americans as dogs to be trampled on at will for whatever purposes you deem fit.
Hey, I treat my dog well, and if someone trampled her I'd blame it on Saddam.
It's funny, I do and have worked with people from all over, and when I think of them, I think of them as Americans. Some as immigrants, but none the less Americans. I have no kind. I am a mutt. My ancestry is from all over Europe, my wife was born in Thailand, two people I consider friends are from Africa, one from Nigeria and the other from Etheopia. One of my best friends in grade school was from India and moved to Kuwait after the GWI. Another good friend in high school was born in China. Again I repeat, I have no kind. You have a kind. I don't. The people of this country are the closest thing I have to a kind, whether I agree with them or not. So when you say my kind, you include all those people that agree with you, as well. Are they wrong, too, just for living in the USA? That's what your saying. Americans walk on people like dogs. Hmmm. Is that all of us? I haven't walked on anyone. I haven't killed anyone. You're the one that is grouping people together. You hate Americans, apparently, because some of us don't agree with you. You have grouped, probably one of the most deverse groups of people, into a simple term Americans, and then you make comments about all of them because some of them don't agree with you.
I think your morals are questionable. Someone who would sell out there kids because they did wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't pay for their crimes, but should their mother sell them out? Because I put my family first I'm bad. I again haven't said anything about Iraq yet you've turned it into a question of the war's merits. I'm keeping it in perspective of the $87 Billion going to support my troops, with food, and equipment. My troops need support. You can say would you support them if this or if that, but this and that are made up. If they were Nazi's would you support them, if they were raping women would you support them, if christ almighty came down from Heaven and said We were right, would you believe him? None of that matters. What matters is Shit happens, but that doesn't stop my family from needing water to drink and food to eat or a pornos to jerkoff to. Simple and plain. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-16, 11:07 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
Was never said. I said I'd rather see someone else die then my family.That is honest not lack of morality. Never said the life was less valuable. Your interpretting my comments like Osama interprets the Koran.
I'll let you believe thats what was meant by my words because it seems to comfort you.
Hey, I treat my dog well, and if someone trampled her I'd blame it on Saddam.
It's funny, I do and have worked with people from all over, and when I think of them, I think of them as Americans. Some as immigrants, but none the less Americans. I have no kind. I am a mutt. My ancestry is from all over Europe, my wife was born in Thailand, two people I consider friends are from Africa, one from Nigeria and the other from Etheopia. One of my best friends in grade school was from India and moved to Kuwait after the GWI. Another good friend in high school was born in China. Again I repeat, I have no kind. You have a kind. I don't. The people of this country are the closest thing I have to a kind, whether I agree with them or not. So when you say my kind, you include all those people that agree with you, as well. Are they wrong, too, just for living in the USA? That's what your saying. Americans walk on people like dogs. Hmmm. Is that all of us? I haven't walked on anyone. I haven't killed anyone. You're the one that is grouping people together. You hate Americans, apparently, because some of us don't agree with you. You have grouped, probably one of the most deverse groups of people, into a simple term Americans, and then you make comments about all of them because some of them don't agree with you.
I think your morals are questionable. Someone who would sell out there kids because they did wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't pay for their crimes, but should their mother sell them out? Because I put my family first I'm bad. I again haven't said anything about Iraq yet you've turned it into a question of the war's merits. I'm keeping it in perspective of the $87 Billion going to support my troops, with food, and equipment. My troops need support. You can say would you support them if this or if that, but this and that are made up. If they were Nazi's would you support them, if they were raping women would you support them, if christ almighty came down from Heaven and said We were right, would you believe him? None of that matters. What matters is Shit happens, but that doesn't stop my family from needing water to drink and food to eat or a pornos to jerkoff to. Simple and plain.
When I raise my children I am not raising them to be thugs, but decent human beings. If these means getting hurt to stand up for what is right, then so be it. "Doing something wrong" if it is an isolated incident or misjudgement is one thing, but doing wrong to another intentionally I will not abide by. My children *will* know right from wrong. And they *will* do it, or they will be disowned by me. People are not to be allowed to run over others just because they can do it. Maybe that's that way you would run your country anf home, but not the way I run mine. People shouls have morals and responsibilities, not just greeds and wants. Yes, shit happens. And in the end, it is the good people who pick up the pieces caused ny the shit that people like you who are too cowardly or complacent to stand up for allow to happen. If I were starving and someone asked me for food, I would give some of my food to them. That is (un) common decency, something I assume you know little of. If it means I die, then I die. But I died like a real human being caring for others and not as an animal. I choose to be human. You choose to be whatever you wish. But i do not judge people's worth based on where they are located. You boast of having friends of all ethnicities. Then you turn around and say you would kill them all at the drop of a pin if your soldiers turned on them. What kind of morality is this? Friends that are only worth anything as long as your overlords say they are "ok". And yes, sir, it *does* matter what were to ahppen if they were raping women or committing genocide. Because that is where true morality comes in. Your people are being killed and killing others for no apparent rhyme or reason. Should the money be given to continue feeding your young men and women up for such an indefinite cause or are their lives not worth that much to you? If they are not successful, the tensions will increase and they will become more vicious as will their attackers. And then, sooner or later, you will have to make the choice. How far am I willing to go to support this useless slaughter?
You don't have to answer this. I know the answer already. Fortunately, my children will have a little more spine than people like you. I realize you will say that I am attacking you again, but someone who values his family more than someone else's family who are just as innocent is not a civilized person.
Perhaps it is ironic that in your army, the highest medal goes to someone who risks his or her life for someone else. I guess that is a foreign concept to you. I am truly sorry although not surprised that this is the case. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-16, 12:18 pm |
| quote:
People shouls have morals and responsibilities, not just greeds and wants.
What you really mean is people should have your morals.
quote:
And in the end, it is the good people who pick up the pieces caused ny the shit
that people like you who are too cowardly or complacent to stand up for allow to happen.
Another personal attack. I stand up for what I believe in. Just because I don't agree with your view of things doesn't make me a coward, it makes me an individual. I could careless what your beliefs are and I have yet to insult you for yours.
quote:
Then you turn around and say you would kill them all at the drop of a pin if your soldiers
turned on them. What kind of morality is this?
Never once said I would kill my friends for George Bush, but I would kill them to save my mother yes. You seem to think that I am condoning killing. I'm not, I'm condoning feeding my people while in a hostile situation.
quote:
And yes, sir, it *does* matter what were to ahppen if they were raping women or
committing genocide. Because that is where true morality comes in.
It doesn't matter because it's not happening, if it was then it would matter. Unless you in your almighty wisdom knows something your not telling us.
quote:
Perhaps it is ironic that in your army, the highest medal goes to someone who risks his or her life for someone else. I guess that is a foreign concept to you. I am truly sorry although not surprised that this is the case.
Our Military trains you to be brothers. Therefore family. I think the foriegn concept is that I care for my family more then I care for yours. Does that bother me, No. I didn't condone indiscrimanate killing. I simply said that I care more for my family's lives more then anyone elses. Simple and plain. Is that wrong? Did I once say someone elses life is less valuable? No. To me they are sure I have an emotional attachment to one of those lives.
So if someone had a gun to your childs head, and someone elses head, and asked you who you would prefer to die, you'd say my child? You have to pick one or they both die.
Or would you sacrafice your child for world peace? Physically kill your child for it? Think about it, and don't just give the fake answer I am expecting. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-16, 1:08 pm |
| If not hurting people who haven't done you anything means having my morals, then yes.
It is not merely a personal attack. There are people who start wars and then there are others who have to help clean up the destruction. In the end, all the war people cause is destruction. You can kill all the innocents you want, but you can never put their lives back together. You dont have to live with the grief that you cause, others do.
From what I understand, you are not in a psoition where *your* family needs food. It is you and people like you who are putting others in that position. If your "friends" happened to live in the wrong area of the earth, you would support your troops against your friends, yes? Or have I misunderstood what you said about supporting your troops?
It does matter because it is happening. Anytime you invade another country and take over you have total power of life and death. When you have that kind of power generally you use it. If you come to the point when you have to make those decisions and you turn away from facing them, then you do what occured in Nanking or Hiroshima.
The military gives rewards for people who have the decency to put their own lives ahead of the lives of others. This is the highest honour your military gives out. And this is the same thing that you are so stingy about. Your brothers seem to be whoever your government tells you they are. You cannot see that the people you support killing and the people you support in doing these acts are more alike than different. On the one hand you praise the military for preaching brotherhood and self-sacrifice, then say that as long as nothing happens to you and it happens to someone else all is OK. That is called hypocrisy.
For world peace would I sacrifice my own child? A tough one. But if I could be ensured that for all time world peace would ensue I would do so, and then I would follow. Your god supposedly did the same. And just because you are too cowardly or hard to do such a thing for the good of all humanity, it doesnt mean that others are. By the way, since you accuse me of speculating on things that can't happen or aren't happening, why are you doing the same thing to me?  | |
| me? I dunno... 2003-10-16, 2:01 pm |
| mmquote:
Again with the name calling. I may be dense, but I'm not weak minded.
that sentence, in itself, proves both claims false
I wasnt trying to insult you as much as jog your thinking, what of the troops who administered the death camps, were they supported by the citizenry back home?
Of course you cant leave the troops in Iraq out to hang but you have to realize the reason they are there is because of a defective White House, one that has obvious plans to compound the problem with further military campaigns. It is the military expansion tht has to stop, and in order for that to happen the message must be clear that there is no open ended blank check for any kind of ridiculous and unnecessary jam that the president gets your troops into.
Currently, all he has to do is start the war and he realizes that the citizenry can be easily convinced to support the troops no matter what, why not stop and ask what kind of a ding dong got them in over their heads in the first place?
Unfortunatley, the misrepresentative (Jewish/zionist) congress/senate will continue to support any disaster that they think will help Israel, no matter what the cost in dollars or American lives.
The 87 billion should be tied to a 'no more wars' requirement. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-16, 2:26 pm |
| quote:
For world peace would I sacrifice my own child? A tough one. But if I could be ensured that for all time world peace would ensue I would do so, and then I would follow. Your god supposedly did the same. And just because you are too cowardly or hard to do such a thing for the good of all humanity, it doesnt mean that others are. By the way, since you accuse me of speculating on things that can't happen or aren't happening, why are you doing the same thing to me?
Then only problem with this senario is that you can't be promised world peace. It isn't human nature. Only the people that "talk to God" can be assured that killing their children could ever be a good thing.
What about your child or the other child? Both die if you do nothing.
quote:
that sentence, in itself, proves both claims false
I wasnt trying to insult you as much as jog your thinking, what of the troops who administered the death camps, were they supported by the citizenry back home?
Of course you cant leave the troops in Iraq out to hang but you have to realize the reason they are there is because of a defective White House, one that has obvious plans to compound the problem with further military campaigns. It is the military expansion tht has to stop, and in order for that to happen the message must be clear that there is no open ended blank check for any kind of ridiculous and unnecessary jam that the president gets your troops into.
Currently, all he has to do is start the war and he realizes that the citizenry can be easily convinced to support the troops no matter what, why not stop and ask what kind of a ding dong got them in over their heads in the first place?
Unfortunatley, the misrepresentative (Jewish/zionist) congress/senate will continue to support any disaster that they think will help Israel, no matter what the cost in dollars or American lives.
The 87 billion should be tied to a 'no more wars' requirement.
Dense, to me, means stubborn. Weak minded goes a lot deeper. Like when someone doesn't agree with you and they are wrong, and immoral because they don't share your beliefs. Kind of like the KKK, or Neo-Nazi's. I've never once forced an opinion on someone. I'll argue my stance, but I do my best not to resort to name calling and the such. I believe the only time I did do that was with you, and I'm still sorry for that.
I hear what your saying and GW is a seperate issue. He isn't pulling those troops out of Iraq until he is no longer president. Thats an understood issue and there is nothing that can be done to change that short of wiping out the next 3 lines of succession. In the mean time, leaving our troops there without the proper supplys to protect themselves isn't an option. I don't equate GW to a Nazi. Maybe a doop, or a con artist. I don't know. I have my opinions on him but their only opinions. | |
| me? I dunno... 2003-10-16, 2:42 pm |
| quote:
Thats an understood issue and there is nothing that can be done to change that short of wiping out the next 3 lines of succession.
I dont understand. | |
| yanqui 2003-10-16, 2:54 pm |
| Somewhere back on the first page someone asked how politicians get away with it. The answer is simple:
We let them.
We elect them again and again and they do what they do without our ever knowing about it.
Or do they?
The things they vote on are public record, if anyone cares to look for it. We're too "busy" to care. I'll bet most of the Americans on this forum can tell exactly what happened in which games of the league championships over the past couple of weeks. But do we know what discussions have been going on in Congress? And now the question--which of those two topics is more important to you? I'm guilty--not of knowing more about baseball than Congress, but of not spending enough time knowing what my representatives are up to. Someone should, and someone should report all this back to my district so that we don't have to just take his word for it. As for them voting themselves a raise, well, they'll keep doing it because of us. Yes, because of us. Because what it would take to stop it is for us to unite and tell our representatives that if they do that this time around we'll vote them out. Never gonna happen.
We're where we are because we stood still. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-16, 4:18 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
I dont understand.
It means Bush won't remove the troops till his objectives are met or all the troops are dead. He's trying not to look weak in the publics eye. He won't remove the troops unless he has done enough to argue that he did what he said. We can't make him remove the troops because we, as a people, feel an obligation to stay. We bombed their country, and now we need to rebuild it. Whether are not this will happen is irrelevant, its about a good show. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-16, 4:22 pm |
| By the way, welcome back Yanqui | |
| me? I dunno... 2003-10-16, 5:00 pm |
| quote:
It means Bush won't remove the troops till his objectives are met or all the troops are dead. He's trying not to look weak in the publics eye. He won't remove the troops unless he has done enough to argue that he did what he said. We can't make him remove the troops because we, as a people, feel an obligation to stay. We bombed their country, and now we need to rebuild it. Whether are not this will happen is irrelevant, its about a good show.
How would any of that prevent a responsible congress from saying hey, thats it, we finish this one, but you get absolutely diddly squat nothing to start any more? | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-16, 5:02 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by me? I dunno...
How would any of that prevent a responsible congress from saying hey, thats it, we finish this one, but you get absolutely diddly squat nothing to start any more?
Public opinion. People too scared to act on what they believe if it means no more job.
Thats why I'm not voting Dem or Rep until I see someone I like. Probably going with an independent instead. Have to look over the platforms and see which suits me best. | |
| HOOLIGAN 2003-10-16, 5:22 pm |
| Two things I will throw in here.
( then I will get my coat ).
Get rid of Campaign finance reform, then America will be a more democratic Nation.
Regardless of the many motives that have been thrown about concerning the Invasion of Iraq. Most people in the US believed it was for the good of the oppressed Iraqi people under that Despot Saddam. | |
| Papiya 2003-10-17, 7:17 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
Then only problem with this senario is that you can't be promised world peace. It isn't human nature. Only the people that "talk to God" can be assured that killing their children could ever be a good thing.
What about your child or the other child? Both die if you do nothing.
Dense, to me, means stubborn. Weak minded goes a lot deeper. Like when someone doesn't agree with you and they are wrong, and immoral because they don't share your beliefs. Kind of like the KKK, or Neo-Nazi's. I've never once forced an opinion on someone. I'll argue my stance, but I do my best not to resort to name calling and the such. I believe the only time I did do that was with you, and I'm still sorry for that.
I hear what your saying and GW is a seperate issue. He isn't pulling those troops out of Iraq until he is no longer president. Thats an understood issue and there is nothing that can be done to change that short of wiping out the next 3 lines of succession. In the mean time, leaving our troops there without the proper supplys to protect themselves isn't an option. I don't equate GW to a Nazi. Maybe a doop, or a con artist. I don't know. I have my opinions on him but their only opinions.
Sir, when you support the ivading forces of a country that was helpless, invaded under false pretenses and then tell me that a whole nation of people -- the Israelis and the Palestinians -- should all be bombed to oblivion because you are tired of hearing about it -- all of whom, I might add, have done you nothing -- I wonder at how you can doubt we we refer to you as a Nazi. My four year old knows better than to harass those who can't defend themselves. To you, however, wiping out entire populations seems as troublesome as throwing seven-dust on an ant-pile. To me, and the misguided souls like me, we have a responsibility to all humanity, and not just those that look like us or live near us. And I say again, when the destruction is done with, it is the people like me who pick up the peices while the war-mongers and industrialists load their pockets with blood money.
As I have said before, might makes right and you prove this quite thoroughly. If this is what all Americans are like, is there any wonder why the rest of the world is reluctant to feel any sympathy for your aggression? | |
| yanqui 2003-10-17, 10:17 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mindmesh
By the way, welcome back Yanqui
Thanks--it got easy to forget to visit here when I quit getting notifications that replies had been posted.
What's that all about? | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-17, 10:41 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by yanqui
Thanks--it got easy to forget to visit here when I quit getting notifications that replies had been posted.
What's that all about?
Don't know I changed my associated email a while ago so that I wouldn't get bombarded with them. | |
| mindmesh 2003-10-17, 10:42 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Papiya
Sir, when you support the ivading forces of a country that was helpless, Blah, Blah, Blah....
Still haven't answered the question. | |
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