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Home > Archive > General Discussion > April 2002 > Which came first the chicken or the egg?
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Which came first the chicken or the egg?
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| Psydefx 2002-04-15, 10:12 pm |
| Just wondering why people are so hung up on people who pass tests without "real world" experience.
It's become prevalent that in order to get a job in IT, you have to be certified. Everyone wants a Mercedes on a Yugo budget. This means that people have found ways to get certified because it's how to get a job. This is a microeconomics prerequisite concept (supply & demand). I would argue that any person who passes a certification exam has experience. Many people use many different venues. Most people don't, however, just go take a test without preparation, but still call others "Paper Certs".
I am a Paper Cert. I have a lot of experience in a lot of different environments. It comes from consulting for 5+ years. I wouldn't sell my Oracle skills, however, at a premium dollar, because I haven't worked with it for going on a year. The last year has been a networking focus, and then starting in Jan, I started getting WebDev contracts (basing them in Access and SQL). I know a sales guy (prominent) who spends his weekends digesting new languages (last I heard, I had pretty much mastered XML from 2 days study). People can argue, but he gets the job done. That's what matters.
Please let me know if you think being paper certed means that you don't know your trade. Where I come from, it's not what you know, it's whether your able to get the information when you need it.
Cheers! | |
| Kasor 2002-04-15, 11:00 pm |
| Time change and so do the way how people deal on business.. | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-04-16, 6:05 am |
| I am kind of going through the same thing. I think that a cert is not a "real cert" unless you actually have the knowlegde to do what your cert implies. An A+ certitfied technicain who can't switch out a bad NIC is a ridiculous thing, but I have seen them. But at the same time, if you try applying for a job without an MCSE at least, you might not even get an interview. And this holds true whether the job's duties actually REQUIRE the amount of knowlegde that the MCSE cert implies. I still think that a "paper cert" is not as good as a "real world cert", but it seems that lots of us do not have a lot of choice in the matter if we want to work. | |
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| All certs are paper certs. I choose to obtain them because I don't have a paper college degree. I feel that studying for paper certs enhances my ability to "throw down" on a given system more than studying to complete a college degree would. Isn't that what it's about? In the end if you can "get down" any paper is secondary to that, but why not collect some papers on the way.... | |
| Shadowwraith 2002-04-16, 9:00 am |
| Well wether you you have a PAPER cert or a PAPER college degree. Either was it's paper. You want one I can get you one from Office Depot for 2.95. What really counts is can you back the paper up with "yes I can do that and then sit down and actually do it. In VMS Kid's statment an A+ certified person that could not change out a NIC, by the way there is no such thing as a NIC Card, it's just a Network Interface Card, but the point being that yes a lot of us have seen them and then again a lot of us have seen people without cert one that could network rings around us. Either way I will quit my ranting now but the moral of the story is don't go just on am I a Paper ??? or not. Go on am I a Paper ??? and can I actually do the work that paper says I can do. Best of luck to all in the forum. Have a wonderful day. | |
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| my boss and technical director of the company has NO certs at all for any area of IT. He relies completly on his experiance and history, which has taken him a long distance and given him a Very nice salary 
He doesn't think much of certs, nor do I, but I'm starting my career in a different time then when he started (early 90's)... I cant see any way of getting a reasonably payed job these days without getting certified in something... | |
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| quote:
Originally posted by Psydefx
I would argue that any person who passes a certification exam has experience.
I don't know if I can completely agree with that general statement. What kind of "experience" are you stating said person would have?
If a person studies with good test preparation resources (whether that be test software, study guides, books, and even dumps) that are soley geared towards passing the exams. A person could pass the MS cert exams and their only "hands-on" computer experience is clicking the "next" button during their test. Right or wrong, that is my general definition of a "paper cert". In my mind, this person, out of the gate, would probably have some difficulty contributing to an IT Department at the level a premier-type MCSE cert implies. For lack of a better phrase - Being able to talk the talk and walk the walk. I am not saying that with time this person would not be able to contribute to the overall success of the department, but it would take some time and on the job experience.(there's that experience word again  )
It's a shame that the industry has changed to where you need a premier-type cert to have a decent chance at landing a job. There was a time when that was not the case, and it bothers me that the industry places so much preceived "value" on having one.
My take is that if I am given a problem to solve, I can not guarantee that I have the answer at the time it is given to me, but I have the ability to understand what the problem is, research out, gather information, and understand how to efficiently and confidently implement the solution without negatively impacting the exisitng business environment. I don't know how you can get to that comfort/confidence level without some-type of hands-on experience.
quote:
I am a Paper Cert. I have a lot of experience in a lot of different environments. It comes from consulting for 5+ years.
I wouldn't consider you a "paper cert".
Maybe if MS would begin implementing a testing structure similar to Cisco, where there are lab examinations as well as a written examinations, we wouldn't be having the age-old "paper cert" discussions. I don't believe anyone ever classifies a CCIE as being a "paper cert". Just my opinion.
quote:
I know a sales guy (prominent) who spends his weekends digesting new languages (last I heard, I had pretty much mastered XML from 2 days study). People can argue, but he gets the job done. That's what matters.
I completely agree with that. It's great seeing people take initiative, those are intangible qualities that I always take highly into consideration when interviewing people. Remember, the only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary.
Just my opinions, feel free to disagree or agree, seeing that they are just my views, there really is no right or wrong answer.
Take Care. | |
| Psydefx 2002-04-16, 10:58 am |
| I've taken the 2K exams, don't you have to have SOME idea of what goes on to pass? Or is your contention that these exams could be passed by wrote memorization? (Even if you're talking about the 1-in-a-million photographic memory, wouldn't they still have "photos" after they were done?) | |
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| I knew I shouldn't have taken the bait. Oh well, live and learn 
Psydefx, As I said before, these are my opinions. I will not be loosing any sleep as to whether you agree or disagree with them.
And to answer your original question, I am not hung up on people who pass tests without "real-world" experience. I think it's great that they are striving to accomplish a goal they've set for themselves. But if you have no "real-world" experience to go with your MCSE, don't be disappointed when you get offered the $28k a year helpdesk support job. You won't be having unsupervised access to my servers anytime soon.
quote:
I've taken the 2K exams, don't you have to have SOME idea of what goes on to pass?
Again, I ask, what degree/level of experience are you implying? Basic Win2000 knowledge? Alright, for arguements sake, I'll conceed that point to you, but designing and implmenting an NT4 single master domain model migration with 4 resource domains over to a full blown Win2000 AD structure, again in my opinion, would be a tad bit out of their range of knowledge. But now this person and I both don the coveted MCSE title, so what then seperates me from him/her? Generally, the same things that seperate me from a new college grad with a BS in Computer Science....usually its that dreaded "real-world" experience thing again.
To answer your question:
Yes, it is my contention that these exams could be passed by wrote-memorization. Granted, MS has increased the difficulty bar of the 2000 track exams, but is it your contention that it is impossible for someone to memorize questions/answers from resources like dumps, cheet-sheets, and testkiller/troytec and pass the exam? As I said before, with the "proper" resources it is possible, and it's more common than a 1-in-a-million occurance.
Psydefx, I agree to disagree with you, and no debatable point you have is going to sway my opinion on the matter. As I'm sure no point I have given contrary to your opinion on the matter is going to sway your view.
I'm done debating this subject with you. Take care and good luck.
With Best Intentions. | |
| Psydefx 2002-04-16, 1:15 pm |
| Sorry for seeming to lure you into a debate, didn't want to do that TO YOU. You seem to have a solid arguement structure that has very defined parameters. You also seem to be established in the industry, your knowledge base, and your experience.
The purpose of the post is to try and make people think before they react to a person on this board passing an exam when they have no "real world" experience. People who put forth effort and cash to attain a certification should be complimented. I know a few people who have a solid background with networking, and know every aspect of Win2K but haven't gotten hold of AD when there are advanced implications (such as moving from your described environment). I also know a few whose job required that they upgrade from 4.0 to 2K. These people (according to the posts I've read) would be considered paper certs. Without real lines drawn, which are only valid if you have accomplished the given cert yourself FIRST, (in my opinion), who determines what is a paper cert, and what is not?
The real thing is that people should not be chastised for accomplishing something. If they take the easy road in the beginning, the road to success will be harder. If they perform due dilligence, the end game is easier. Either way, it's still the same accomplishment. Certification.
I would like to see some of the people's opinions on the contracts that I close, I wonder if they would be considered "paper contracts" because I don't have the exact skill set required? (BTW - I usually find a contractor that I have worked with or know of that does have the required skill set, and then learn while they implement.)
This is what I consider the "real world". When I got a contract to hook up several locations and the connectivity was ISDN, but I had never connected multiple BRIs before, I didn't turn it down, I simply learned and then implimented. This is why I contend that the cert itself is an accomplishment, and I don't feel that anyone should be chastised for the accomplishment. The truth of the matter is that the knowledge it takes to pass a certification is not what it takes to get the job done. It is simply a general overview. Another truth is that most people with certifications don't use the knowledge on a daily basis all the time which means that time on task diminishes, and therefore their effectiveness is lessened. All of this together makes the concept of a "Paper Cert" either a great deal more prevalent, or not valid at all.
Just my opinion.
Cheers! | |
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| quote:
Originally posted by Psydefx
Sorry for seeming to lure you into a debate, didn't want to do that TO YOU. You seem to have a solid arguement structure that has very defined parameters. You also seem to be established in the industry, your knowledge base, and your experience.
Thanks for the kind words. You offer some very fine points for everyone to consider as well.
quote:
People who put forth effort and cash to attain a certification should be complimented.
I completely agree. People should always be commended for obtaining a goal they set for themselves, and through hard work and dilligence, accomplish that goal.
quote:
The real thing is that people should not be chastised for accomplishing something. If they take the easy road in the beginning, the road to success will be harder. If they perform due dilligence, the end game is easier. Either way, it's still the same accomplishment. Certification.
Well said, and point taken.
quote:
The truth of the matter is that the knowledge it takes to pass a certification is not what it takes to get the job done. It is simply a general overview.
Well stated again.
Psydefx, I apologize if I came off the wrong way in my previous posts, it was not my intention. In fact, seeing that I'm agreeing with everything you just posted, I can't seem to remember what we were debating about.
Take Care! | |
| Psydefx 2002-04-16, 2:47 pm |
| Thank you very much for the conversation. I have found that it is always a great experience to have a learned and practiced person challenge me to explain an idea. Originally I had an understanding of what I was trying to accomplish with this post, but you have very effectively helped me to think through my ideas and opinions.
I hope to have the opportunity again in the future. If you don't mind, I will spread a quote you provided earlier as I have not seen it before, and very much like it...
quote:
the only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary
Cheers! | |
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| I wish I could take credit for that quote, but I can't.
"The only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary."
- Vince Lombardi | |
| Psydefx 2002-04-16, 3:47 pm |
| Now I'll use it and quote you and Vince! | |
| wicket 2002-04-16, 4:30 pm |
| quote:
My take is that if I am given a problem to solve, I can not guarantee that I have the answer at the time it is given to me, but I have the ability to understand what the problem is, research out, gather information, and understand how to efficiently and confidently implement the solution without negatively impacting the exisitng business environment. I don't know how you can get to that comfort/confidence level without some-type of hands-on experience.
I think this would apply to all aspects of IT.
Very well spoken. btw hows foo.exe doing spid? | |
| oldsaltdoggie 2002-04-16, 4:54 pm |
| "You can put shoes on a 10 month old, that does mean they can walk, but put shoes on a ten year old and you'll have a hard time keeping up with them." Certs are like cloths they make you look good on the out side, but if you don't know what your doing you'll look like a fool when the hammer comes down! | |
| Psydefx 2002-04-17, 12:12 am |
| If the ten month old ties their own shoes, you still praise them emphatically because they accomplished something great for their age and experience. Imagine what would happen if you told them how bad it was that they didn't double tie it, which will definately cause you to trip while you're running a marathon (because that was your experience, and they look to you for support and advice)...
Never would happen, would it???
If it did, you'ld have a pretty dysfunctional kid that was pretty intimidated by your petty negativity (which is usually caused because you took until four years old to tie YOUR shoes), and would therefore not even bother trying to walk.
Have a great evening. | |
| wicket 2002-04-17, 1:20 am |
| quote:
Imagine what would happen if you told them how bad it was that they didn't double tie it, which will definately cause you to trip while you're running a marathon (because that was your experience, and they look to you for support and advice)...
Do u know my parents or something??? | |
| bearing 2002-04-17, 9:16 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psydefx
Imagine what would happen if you told them how bad it was that they didn't double tie it, which will definately cause you to trip while you're running a marathon.
On a lighter note do you think this guys parents told him to double tie his shoes as a kid? | |
| CyberDude 2002-04-17, 1:44 pm |
| I class myself and anyone else as a paer cert until they hace actually used their qualification in a job.
The one big advantage that a degree gives you is that during your years of study for academic achievement, you are also gaining work experience via the projects that you have to do, as well as using the opportunity of those special "student only" jobs on offer.
I have a few certs but unfortunately the only time they are used is at home.
Over here, certs are an add-on. Experience is what counts, and unless you have a degree or have completed an 18-24 month training, which has practical training incorporated, then you are left at the first gate. But there are the rare moments when you actually have an interview, which is when the company fully realises that you have no commercial experience, so you are shown the door.
All I can say, is that one day there will be a chance for everyone to find a job and gain that vital experience, to back-up your pieces of paper. | |
| tlwilkins2 2002-04-22, 10:57 am |
| I'm one of those people who has done this both ways...in that I started getting experience before actually getting certified or taking any college classes. When I did finally get to study for NT 4 certs, I found that the information I had to learn filled in a whole bunch of holes for me and rounded out my skills and knowledge.
Now then, time to upgrade MCSE to WIN2K...I had no experience but had to take the test. Though much of the theory behind WIN2K was the same as NT4, there was a large amount of new material - Active Directory was one, and I had absolutely no experience with Directory Services, didn't know what it was about, benefits, or anything. I passed the Accelerated exam on December 31 after 1 week of study. I still have no experience with Active Directory though I do lots of stuff on a daily basis with Win2K. The networks I work on are not using Active Directory (yet). While I took the exam because I had to, I learned a lot in my study and again filled in holes. I also got myself a good foundation of info for Active Directory that will help me when I do get the opportunity to migrate some of my customers to it.
What I'm saying folks, is either way...you really will benefit by both certification and experience. The info you learn in the certification process will give you good foundation if you're a newbie and will fill in holes if you've already been working the field. Experience - well there is no substitute for that, but we all have to start somewhere, and none of had it when we started. | |
| Snail Fever 2002-04-23, 7:11 pm |
| I've got many certificates, and every one is on paper. The problem isn't the paper, it's folk's understanding of what certification means.
Real understanding and ability is the result of three things: exposure, testing, and experience. Rely on any one of these, and you could be fooling yourself.
Exposure, including classes, seminars, and reading the literature can be a wonderful source on information. But it does not imply understanding. Without testing, there's no guarantee of comprehension.
Experience may be the best indicator of ability, but it's also very limited. Most jobs don't provide much new experience after the first year or so. We all know somebody with 20 years experience doing just one task over and over again. So would you want to hire that guy for all his experience?
Testing with passing scores shows an ability to memorize and comprehend an industry-standard body of knowledge. It does not imply anything more, and never will. In some cases, certifications are valuable for developing and demonstrating knowledge beyond personal experience.
The problem with certifications is that people want them to mean more than they do. Whether we're talking about A+ or a B.S. degree, they are not a guarantee of hands-on ability: that's not their purpose.
It's the prosceptive employer's job to know that certification only implies an industry-standard body of knowledge. If they want ability, they must ask for it.
It's out job as techs to develop both ability and understanding. This means getting exposure, certifications, and experience. We also need to make it clear the advantages and limitations of these three factors of ability. |
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