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| wbafrank 2002-03-12, 10:11 am |
|  This isn't scary it is well deserved!! The guy cheated, then posted his questions on a braindump and got caught. Not only did he loose his MCP status, he will never be able to take another MS exam again, and he will probably end up unemployed to boot with no qualifications!!
Whoooo Hoooo to MS!! | |
| ccieToBe 2002-03-12, 10:15 am |
| Go Microsoft! | |
| cross36 2002-03-12, 10:28 am |
| Praise microsoft for catching such a fool | |
| Nicole 2002-03-12, 10:42 am |
| Sounds like an urban legend. But I hope it's true! :P | |
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| Bobby Digital 2002-03-12, 1:06 pm |
| I agree with Nicole. It sounds too much like a new urban legend to me. If it is in fact true, there has to be more to the story.
BD | |
| Supertech 2002-03-12, 1:29 pm |
| Perhaps.
Big Brother is the scary aspect.
The legal debate following this post makes for interesting reading. | |
| CyberDude 2002-03-12, 2:13 pm |
| Does anybody no where this guy worked, as I could do with his job? | |
| FloatingMonkey 2002-03-12, 3:39 pm |
| It's good the cheater got caught. But really now a days Microsoft certs are worth much anymore, since everyone has them.
-flo | |
| wbafrank 2002-03-12, 3:55 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by FloatingMonkey It's good the cheater got caught. But really now a days Microsoft certs are worth much anymore, since everyone has them. -flo
Yes I agree, but I know I can back mine up with experience - at the end of the day it is only a piece of paper. It what you know and how you use it, is what matters. | |
| mrfixit 2002-03-12, 4:01 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by wbafrank
Yes I agree, but I know I can back mine up with experience - at the end of the day it is only a piece of paper. It what you know and how you use it, is what matters.
Very true! | |
| Boulware5 2002-03-12, 4:09 pm |
| Hm if dumps are so horrible how come some books still recommend them. For example, in my Examcram Network+ book, page XXV, under "Tip" it says, "When using any briandumps, it's ok to pay attention to information about questions.....Thus, use the questions to guide your studies, but don't rely on the answers in a braindump to lead you to the truth. Double check everything you find in any briandump."
LOL, so basically this leading certification book is recommending using dumps?? | |
| wbafrank 2002-03-12, 4:19 pm |
| pulling my leg - so I've just grabbed my books and there it is in BLACK AND WHITE!! As I never normally read the introduction this came as quite a shock .......... | |
| Nicole 2002-03-12, 4:20 pm |
| I'd doublecheck anything I saw in an Examcram book. They aren't exactly the pinnacle of accuracy. | |
| Crutch 2002-03-12, 4:24 pm |
| First off, let me say this, I don't support braindumps either. Cheating is cheating. But, where there's a will, there's a way, especially with the internet.
That said, I think Nicole and BobbyD are on target here. Sounds too cut and dried. If it happened, then great, but the legal side is the difficult question. Companies fire people all the time, that I can believe. The part about stripping his certs is hard to believe even with the tap.
Just my $0.02 worth | |
| FloatingMonkey 2002-03-12, 4:24 pm |
| So you go and pass an exam because you memorized some braindump............what have you learned? | |
| wbafrank 2002-03-12, 4:36 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Crutch
The part about stripping his certs is hard to believe even with the tap.
This is taken from the MS site:
Enforcement of non-disclosure agreement. Since February 1998, Microsoft has required all certification candidates to accept the terms of a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) before taking certification exams. One way we enforce the NDA is to closely monitor Web sites suspected of publishing exam material and regularly perform searches for MCP exam content. As a result of these investigations, owners of seven Web sites were found to be in violation of the non-disclosure agreement by publishing questions from certification exams. The site owners—all certified individuals in Indiana, Kansas, Massachusetts, and Texas—were immediately decertified and are now permanently ineligible for any Microsoft certification. In addition, as of September 2000, Microsoft has decertified a dozen individuals who had posted information in violation of the NDA. Microsoft can take whatever legal action is justified by the facts of a case and reserves the right to revoke any certifications at its sole discretion. | |
| mrfixit 2002-03-12, 5:52 pm |
| A little off the subject, but I believe CompTIA has a similar non-disclosure agreement. Remember it from when I took both the A+ and Net+ exams.
And I agree 100%, cheating is cheating!
(Know too many "Paper" MCP's!) | |
| Crutch 2002-03-12, 5:52 pm |
| OK Frank,
I didn't mean to say that it couldn't happen, it just didn't "sound" like it could happen in this case.
Whether or not is irrelavent.
You know, the "software police" are now in Albuquerque promoting on the radio about how you could turn in your former or current employer with licensing compliance issues. They exclaim that the organization could be fined thousands. They visited my former employer (not by me) and gave them 30 days to get into compliance or face a fine. They complied and didn't receive any fines.
So, even though something is touted as such, you never really can tell for certain. | |
| Nicole 2002-03-12, 6:13 pm |
| quote:
You know, the "software police" are now in Albuquerque promoting on the radio about how you could turn in your former or current employer with licensing compliance issues. They exclaim that the organization could be fined thousands. They visited my former employer (not by me) and gave them 30 days to get into compliance or face a fine. They complied and didn't receive any fines.
I seem to recall hearing something at a seminar about a "softer, gentler" approach to the software police thing. Instead of punishing, focusing on educating and getting businesses to license properly.
Radio ads, huh? I bet they work quite well! | |
| wbafrank 2002-03-12, 6:18 pm |
| If you notice since September 2000 they have only decertified 12 people. So if you take this into context with the number of MCP's, it doesn't even scratch the surface therefore, it is not even a deterrent to those doing it. Such is life!! | |
| kmm1081 2002-03-12, 6:54 pm |
| This sounds like typical internet BS to me. | |
| CyberDude 2002-03-13, 2:11 am |
| All certification vendors have a non-disclosure agreement. They have to, so that they can protect their cert value. Just using a BD to pass an exam may work some of the time, but you will never have learnt anything except that you can store Q&A's over a short period of time. I always use Books, hands on at home, forums, on-line tests, test engines and during the last day or so prior to an exam, I may peruse a BD site to see if I have missed anything in my studies, as I have yet to find any piece of material that covers a complete OS. | |
| TW2001 2002-03-13, 8:19 am |
| quote:
This sounds like typical internet BS to me.
Id have to agree.Im not saying they didnt do it..however they are masters of "spin".
I posted a classic example months ago..Bill
(from high atop Mt Redmond) commanded "All software development will stop for 2 months.Engineers and developers will go through security training."
This was all part of thier new "security intiative".Hmm havent heard what they learnt or if the intiative is still going on. | |
| Crutch 2002-03-13, 9:21 am |
| The "security initiative" is real, but I don't know to what extent. I have a buddy that's a technical manager for RAS up there in Redmond. He said the whole thing has been a real drag, 'cause they have pulled members from everyone's team, leaving a skeleton crew to carry on. Plus, Bill "saw the light" with wireless and now the push is for wireless encryption. Microsoft and Cisco are partnering on this. My buddy says that they are all working 80 hour weeks-minimum, until this new "standard" is implemented. | |
| CyberDude 2002-03-13, 9:44 am |
| I may have to buy some Cisco stock after all, thanks for the info. | |
| Pavlov 2002-03-13, 11:30 am |
| Interesting thread....
I have to agree with Nicole on this subject. This guy lost his job at MSN because he was a moron. If you really want to know when MS starts cracking down on that type of stuff just search the internet for braindump sites and see how many there are out there with the word "braindump" right in the URL. CompTIA does crack down on sites publishing that sort of information, hence the fall of cheet-sheets.com
Also, as stated by so many others, if someone wants to cheat to obtain a certification, then let them. Just hope that the day of the interviews yours is right after his/hers! | |
| TW2001 2002-03-13, 11:52 am |
| quote:
hence the fall of cheet-sheets.com
Now its called TestKing.... | |
| freak 2002-03-13, 11:55 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by ccieToBe
Go Microsoft!
never quite thought I would read a post with this content from you  | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-03-13, 12:46 pm |
| C'mon freak, even Linus has gotten mushy about Microsoft once or twice. | |
| mrfixit 2002-03-13, 1:06 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by TW2001
Now its called TestKing....
Do you know this for sure? I am trying to clear something up on the 210 forum regarding Test King. If you have solid info on this, could you P.M. me with it? | |
| tempest420 2002-03-13, 1:14 pm |
| Microsoft needs to chill. braindumps dont seem like cheating to me, I dont use them really but sometimes before a test I get out on the net and find practice tests and practice questions of all kinds and types. Those tests have banks of thousands of questions for each exam and they pull a misley 65 questions outa all that so how is a brain dump cheating when really the questions they post wont be what you get and the questions are updated regularly.
Late---
Tre<> | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by tempest420
Microsoft needs to chill. braindumps dont seem like cheating to me, I dont use them really but sometimes before a test I get out on the net and find practice tests and practice questions of all kinds and types. Those tests have banks of thousands of questions for each exam and they pull a misley 65 questions outa all that so how is a brain dump cheating when really the questions they post wont be what you get and the questions are updated regularly.
Late---
Tre<>
actually, I agree with MS on the subject of dumps. You sign an NDA when you take the test. Nobody forces you to do so. It is a question of principals to me. If I give my word, I give my word. You know the consequences if you break the NDA.
BTW, most question pools only have about 400 questions in them, not thousands...
It is a MS game with MS rules. You don't have to play the game -- but if you do, you have to play by their rule... | |
| ccieToBe 2002-03-13, 1:22 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by tempest420
Microsoft needs to chill. braindumps dont seem like cheating to me, I dont use them really but sometimes before a test I get out on the net and find practice tests and practice questions of all kinds and types. Those tests have banks of thousands of questions for each exam and they pull a misley 65 questions outa all that so how is a brain dump cheating when really the questions they post wont be what you get and the questions are updated regularly.
Late---
Tre<>
If looking at what amounts to the answer key to a test before taking it isn't cheating then what is? | |
| ccieToBe 2002-03-13, 1:25 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by freak
never quite thought I would read a post with this content from you
Hehe, neither did I. I'm all for what Microsoft reportedly did in this case though. I just wish they took it one step further and fired that guy. | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by ccieToBe
If looking at what amounts to the answer key to a test before taking it isn't cheating then what is?
I agree 100%. | |
| mrfixit 2002-03-13, 1:29 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by freak
actually, I agree with MS on the subject of dumps. You sign an NDA when you take the test. Nobody forces you to do so. It is a question of principals to me. If I give my word, I give my word. You know the consequences if you break the NDA.
BTW, most question pools only have about 400 questions in them, not thousands...
It is a MS game with MS rules. You don't have to play the game -- but if you do, you have to play by their rule...
Totally agree!! If you play you have to follow the rules! Don't like the rules, don't play. No one is twisting your arm.
(And you will find that it is not only M$ that has these rules. Any company that puts out a certification exam has the same type of NDA, albiet worded differently.) | |
| mrfixit 2002-03-13, 4:05 pm |
| Check this out, from M$:
quote:
Q. What happens if someone is caught cheating on a Microsoft exam?
A. Keeping exams as secure as possible helps maintain the value of Microsoft certification and ensures that only qualified information technology professionals are identified as MCPs.
If a candidate is caught violating testing rules, as explained to all exam candidates, the candidate is permanently ineligible for any Microsoft certification. Testing center proctors are authorized to take immediate, appropriate measures against candidates who are caught violating testing rules. Examples of violations include using notes brought into the testing center, copying test questions, and looking at the monitors of other test takers.
This policy is enforced to ensure the integrity of certification exams and the MCP program. You can help protect your investment in your certification by making fellow candidates aware of testing rules. Thank you for your cooperation.
And this:
quote:
Q. Why am I required to accept the Non-Disclosure Agreement before I can take an exam?
A. The NDA protects the security of Microsoft certification exams and the integrity of the program by legally discouraging piracy of exam items.
Should clear things up, eh?
For more Q & A, check here:
http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/...aq/security.asp | |
| darthw 2002-03-13, 5:09 pm |
| This braindump subject is so reminiscent of many of the college courses I have taken. Half of the class always wants to "review" the week before an exam. However, these students idea of a review is for the instructors to give them the answers to the questions that will actually be on the exam. Most of the instructors didn't give into the whining students, a few have.
In my opinion the instructors should say "Know everything we've covered thus far - from Chapters X through Z. Any of it may potentially be on the exam."
The number of students that whine for the answers before the exam are usually, though not always, young ones just out of high school. It seems to be a trend along with the idea of entitlement to a high paying job without paying one's dues. I know not all young 'uns are like that, but some days it seems epidemic. | |
| cross36 2002-03-13, 7:58 pm |
| Still a scary story this is.
I just can't stop reading it | |
|
| The cert should be revoked. This is the classic definition of a "Paper MCSE" or "Paper ....whatever." If you don't have a thorough understanding of the objectives and subject matter, you don't deserve to hold the cert.
I hope this scares the people who claim to be able to pass any exam in a week or month.
I've seen guys holding an MCSE who couldn't even manage to load the OS, service packs, and apps. Clowns who didn't know the difference between NTFS and FAT holding the cert. Needless to say they didn't last long anyway. | |
| freak 2002-03-14, 10:19 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by tree
The cert should be revoked. This is the classic definition of a "Paper MCSE" or "Paper ....whatever." If you don't have a thorough understanding of the objectives and subject matter, you don't deserve to hold the cert.
I hope this scares the people who claim to be able to pass any exam in a week or month.
I've seen guys holding an MCSE who couldn't even manage to load the OS, service packs, and apps. Clowns who didn't know the difference between NTFS and FAT holding the cert. Needless to say they didn't last long anyway.
I agree with you on this. However, I would like to point out that with the new Win2K tests, that require a fair amount of hands-on experience, the paper certs are far and few in between. I think that the 216 test took care of them  | |
| tempest420 2002-03-14, 2:02 pm |
| Well I wasn't saying I support cheating. From what I have seen me and people I study with study hard and work hard to pass these tests, and when we think we have what we need learned we take practice tests, like off of Selftest.com and then we see what we haven't learned that maybe we forgot about. And I have glanced at a few brain dumps on study sights and they dont look any different than practice tests. I have seen more questions verbatim from practice exams than I have brain dumps. A practice exam will have a question, an answer, and an explanation is to why thats the correct answer. The dumps I have seen have again a question, an answer, and an explination why that is the correct answer. So is it cheating just cause it is called a brain dump and its legal if you call it practice test?
<Tre> Lettme know what ya think, so far I am pretty nuetral on the subject. | |
| Johnny5Alive 2002-03-14, 2:53 pm |
| I don't agree with braindumps, and I feel that this is the general concensus with the majority of members on this forum. Why then...are they advertised on this very site on the 'Top Sites' tab ?? | |
| ccieToBe 2002-03-14, 3:10 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by tempest420
Well I wasn't saying I support cheating. From what I have seen me and people I study with study hard and work hard to pass these tests, and when we think we have what we need learned we take practice tests, like off of Selftest.com and then we see what we haven't learned that maybe we forgot about. And I have glanced at a few brain dumps on study sights and they dont look any different than practice tests. I have seen more questions verbatim from practice exams than I have brain dumps. A practice exam will have a question, an answer, and an explanation is to why thats the correct answer. The dumps I have seen have again a question, an answer, and an explination why that is the correct answer. So is it cheating just cause it is called a brain dump and its legal if you call it practice test?
<Tre> Lettme know what ya think, so far I am pretty nuetral on the subject.
I consider it cheating no matter how much or little braindumps are used. You have a very good point though about practice tests. That is definately a grey area IMO. I use to use them but now that I realize just how simular they are to the actual exams I've stopped. It makes preparing for exams take a little longer but IMO it's worth it because now after I've passed an exam I know that I understand the material. | |
| chodan 2002-03-18, 7:00 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by tempest420
And I have glanced at a few brain dumps on study sights and they dont look any different than practice tests. I have seen more questions verbatim from practice exams than I have brain dumps.
Within the limits of the objectives there are sometimes only limited varioutions on the same question.
For instance you can only ask about the difference in moving a file from NTFS to FAT
in a few ways. That they look like the same question is not suprising. | |
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| greenbean 2002-03-18, 8:09 am |
| People who cheat on their exams eventually get caught - one way or another.
You can't hold a job just because of the letters after your name. You have to actually PROVE you know your stuff.
So let the cheaters cheat. THEY have to live with themselves..... | |
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|
| quote:
Originally posted by Shadowwraith
I kinda of look at it this way. Is using a braindump cheating? Yes outright and no way around it. Do I use them. No not by any means. But if you choose to use them to pass your cert. More power to you. I just hope that I have an interview right after you do so I can prove that, yes, there are still paper cert people out there and then yes there are those of us that took the time to actually learn the material and get a base foundation in the concepts so that no matter what question you asked we don't just know the answer we can also explain how and why we know and understand the answer. Just my little take on the hole matter.
Right on. Could not agree with you more. | |
| cmaness 2002-03-18, 9:56 am |
| While undergoing classes for Microsoft, the instructors of the course actually passed out several sites, aka 'braindumps', for us to use for study purposes. So if Microsoft is going to start cracking down on this issue, let's start at the level where some are getting these sights. Don't just bust the little guy when their own people are passing out the information for study references. | |
| freak 2002-03-18, 10:03 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by cmaness
While undergoing classes for Microsoft, the instructors of the course actually passed out several sites, aka 'braindumps', for us to use for study purposes. So if Microsoft is going to start cracking down on this issue, let's start at the level where some are getting these sights. Don't just bust the little guy when their own people are passing out the information for study references.
I could agree with you more either... although if a cop sells drugs, does it mean that
1. it is OK to shoot up
2. all cops are drug dealers?
Probably not. I am an MCT and I teach MS curriculum for a living. I do not *ever* pass URLs of websites that offer braindumps.. | |
| beast_killer02 2002-03-18, 10:15 am |
| I read a good portion of that post and some of it seemed far fetched and some of it seemed to be true.
The guy that lost his cert and the one who wrote the thread...both worked at MSN.
If in fact the guy who lost his cert did cheat and then post his answers woohoo MS. | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 10:58 am |
| It seems to me that a Dump is a list of questions rather than notes on the subject. I guess I'll assume that no one here has ever used Trans******, or used a Cramsheet. I would further assume that no one here has ever purchased a book that "covers the topics and objectives of the **-*** exam.
There are two lines folks, the one that M$ (I kinda get a kick out of that abbreviation) draws (which is the correct one until you start looking into the certification products from other companies WHICH THEY ENDORSE), and the popular vote. The masses have created (over and over) dump sites... when they make enough cash, they make it a "study guide" or and endorsed "practice test"...
I personally can back up my certs with a resume. I know a lot of people who can.
My question is still (to those who care to answer) where is the line in the sand?
If you use any materials that focus content, are you not (by your definition) "cheating"?
PS If you have any questions about the process outlined above, ask someone who's NT 4.0 certified that used Tra*********, they'll tell you how many of the questions on the exam were verbatim.
PPS What if M$ actually changed the questions every month, wouldn't that alleviate the problem (and since it's their product (and "their rules"), they should come up with their solution, since the others aren't working (see the "test k***" rebuttal above). | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 11:06 am |
| Have you noticed that CTIA has chosen the route above? Not only are they going after dump sites, their tests change once every 6-18 mos. Interesting...
Then get your CCIE using dumps...good luck! | |
| freak 2002-03-18, 11:11 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psydefx
Then get your CCIE using dumps...good luck!
lol Ain't that the truth! | |
| AndyC 2002-03-18, 11:30 am |
| I agree with you on this. However, I would like to point out that with the new Win2K tests, that require a fair amount of hands-on experience, the paper certs are far and few in between. I think that the 216 test took care of them
Not to mention the 240 test!! | |
| freak 2002-03-18, 11:32 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by AndyC
I agree with you on this. However, I would like to point out that with the new Win2K tests, that require a fair amount of hands-on experience, the paper certs are far and few in between. I think that the 216 test took care of them
Not to mention the 240 test!!
yeah, this one was crazy indeed | |
| AndyC 2002-03-18, 11:54 am |
| ...It bloody killed me!! | |
| freak 2002-03-18, 11:56 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by AndyC
...It bloody killed me!!
lol
Good to have you back from the dead | |
| chodan 2002-03-18, 12:08 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by AndyC
...It bloody killed me!!
There is a pile of bodies from the 240 exam
Mine is somewhere in the pile as well. | |
| GByeMCSE 2002-03-18, 1:07 pm |
| Well, the whole reason my Screen Name is GByeMCSE is because of braindumps. I'm sorry but the MCSE was at one time the peak of all certifications. braindumps have destroyed the credibility of all Certifications | |
| scorpyun2001 2002-03-18, 1:21 pm |
| the use of these braindumps and other methods of cheating, show only that the "technician" is no true tech, just someone who has memorized what true techies have come to honor and cherish: trial and error and hands on experience. i agree, the only advantage cheating does is give guys like me a higher percentage of obtaining the sought after position. (esp. if I interview right after a loser like the fellow this whole thread is created around) | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 1:40 pm |
| So in endeavoring your certification you used no focused material?
Examples of focused material:
Ex** Cr**
Trans*******
Ex** Pr**
Bos**
Study Guides
It's very easy to lose sight of reality and throw stones. The reality is that Cliff Notes were deemed cheating when I was in school, in fact, someone I know reminded me of that recently. It's STILL considered cheating. So if you condemn people for using dumps, then please do it when you have studied only the official curriculum and your personal experience to take exams. | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 1:45 pm |
| just read your bio. Apparently you haven't taken any exams. I hope that you follow through on your quest the way you outlined above. My apologies for assuming you were heavily certified while toting this banner. Please excuse my lack of investigation before responding. | |
| GByeMCSE 2002-03-18, 1:51 pm |
| Actually Yes, I used Sybex study guides and actually built a network in my house which at the time (1996) was pretty grovy. There were three of us who worked as Health Inspectors for the County and the pay was so miserable (thus the three of us renting my roommate's uncle's house) that we built an LAN and tried to learn ourselves. I have been teaching at C.C.'s for two years and I've told all of my students you will teach yourself more than any instructor book or braindump. That's how I learned. I have no problem with Texbooks and study guides. I do have a problem with braindumps and schools that charge a fortune for poor quality training which the unfortunate aspiring IT pro has to wade through. Probably leading them to persue braindumps as an alternative.
I once taught an Net+ Class with 8 computers and 25 students and when I complained my job was threatened. I saw instructers who were paper-certified and low-income students borrowing money at 24% interest and paying over a grand a class.
Yes I'll badmouth braindumps but now that I think about other training options....probably should start another thread but I'd love to think I'm not alone in my critique of for profit IT schools. | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 2:15 pm |
| What's the difference between a study guide and a brain dump? The fact that it's written in question form? The topics are the same. You can only disect a piece of information or a relationship so many ways.
You still did not say where the line is.
Yes, I think you should post a different thread. I have my own comments that are less unlike yours regarding IT schools. | |
| scorpyun2001 2002-03-18, 2:18 pm |
| there should be no for profit schools of any kind!
education is as vital to "national security" as any Star Wars Program or any other space aged defense system for America.
As an American, I am dipleased by the notion that my tax dollars will buy a nuke but not a quality education! | |
| scorpyun2001 2002-03-18, 2:21 pm |
| Capitalism, Johnny my boy, good ol' American capitalism. | |
| GByeMCSE 2002-03-18, 2:23 pm |
| A braindump of exact questions and answers from an exam is cheating period.
A braindump that says "Study this" and "Read up on that" I don't have a problem with.
Are some questions at the back of the book the exact questions on an exam. Sure, some of them are but someone comming out of prometric and immediately writing down questions is, in my opinion, a totally different story. Sharing information about an exam, hell, I've done that. If someone asked me "What do I need to know?" I'd tell them just as I would a trainee at work or a student. If someone said "What are the exact questions you had from the exam?" I would have a problem with that.
I think there is a difference between questions in the back of a study guide and questions that are a few days old from someone who just took the exam. That's all I'm saying.
John | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 2:26 pm |
| Unfortunately, people don't put a value on what they don't pay for. That is why capitalism actually works. There is nothing in any of these certification programs, or in any other topic that I have run across that is not available in some way shape or form for free. Education is free... just go to the library. If you don't like yours, go to the Library of Congress. People go to school to have someone who has learned it already expain it to them in a way they understand, and that, my dear friend, IS worth money. New Thread... | |
| wbafrank 2002-03-18, 2:28 pm |
| GByeMCSE some good valid points there. | |
| CyberDude 2002-03-18, 2:33 pm |
| Guys, please, take this to a chat room. Your endless threads are causing a mail overload for me. I know this thread is interesting but please, have a go and air your views, then let someone else post theirs. If you want a one on one discussion use PM, etc. No seriously guys, only joking. You are participating in some good banter for all of us to read. Or, is this a stab at trying to create examnotes longest thread? | |
| scorpyun2001 2002-03-18, 2:35 pm |
| I agree with you pysch but all i am saying is that education (in fine educational institutions) should be free of charge | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 2:44 pm |
| My thoughts on brain dumps have always been that they are a good outline for study foci. This is the same as using a study guide, in my opinion. That is because I have a problem believing that anyone can remember every question from an exam they take, with all of the answers possible and the CORRECT answer.
The next step is those people who take dumps and compile them, research them and give correct answers to the questions from the multiple dumps created.
Wow, that sounds like researching many documents and then publishing one of your own (something university professors have been using as a notariety point for decades (and usually it's their students actual work).
I still don't see a line, dumps aren't exact because people don't generally get perfect scores, therefor they either have to research or their opinions come under suspicion. I also have never met someone who can take the input from an exam and "dump" it later. I know there are people out there, but they would get perfect scores every time, because they also read a text book in about 5 minutes. (Generally speaking, they are also not studying for the MCSE).
If people bribe a testing center, then yes, I agree, they are breaking their contract with the testing company, and with the vendor. I realize this happens, and was reminded of that by someone from another country that says it's rampant.
This is where the test revisioning comes in. There are many ways to rewrite a question. On some of the tests I've taken, I will see two or three sets of two or three questions that are VERY close to one another. I believe it would take more effort to memorize these questions verbatim than to understand the underlying relationships and concepts.
The end of that stream of consciousness is that people don't generally memorize these tests, they use the brain dumps as a guide to prepare. I still don't see a difference between that and a "Study Guide". | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 2:47 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by scorpyun2001
I agree with you pysch but all i am saying is that education (in fine educational institutions) should be free of charge
It is... just get a scholarship ($30B available every year).
Nothing in life that is worth having is free. You have to work for it whether you're paying money, time, or physical labor. Opportunities are available for anyone who wishes to apply themselves to an objective. | |
| scorpyun2001 2002-03-18, 2:57 pm |
| point taken.. | |
| CyberDude 2002-03-18, 3:04 pm |
| Good points Psydefx, and I agree with you. I use BD during the last couple of days for extra research and to find out what i have missed. Maybe, if you had to pay for them they would all be classed as good material from M$? | |
|
|
| cross36 2002-03-18, 4:55 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psydefx
Unfortunately, people don't put a value on what they don't pay for.
So true indeed, it always fools the eye for a little second pleaser | |
|
|
| sristevs 2002-03-18, 5:17 pm |
| Honestly I have not. MCSE(4.0) took me a year and a half on my own. I bought a couple of books and went at it. Besides I have had friends tell me that there were some bad brain dumps out there that confused them and they wound up failing. Being far from an expert I avoided them to save added confusion. I did not have anything reimbersed so I did not want to follow my buddy's footsteps and give MS $100 donations | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 5:25 pm |
| See, for me purchasing an Ex** Cr** book, or anything else that states that it "covers the objectives" should be considered in the same pot. Your observation that half of the garbage available is confusing or wrong is even more of a reason not to hate these things. If you look at it logically, a person knowing that the document is not correct causes them to study more, but in a focused direction.
Adult learners are objective oriented (whether they mean to be or not). If the objective is the certification, then the next logical step is to find out the information you need to know in order to attain that certification. A person has several options avalable to them in this regard.
***** Any prep material falls in the same place unless it is an exact and accurate copy of the exam *****.
How many of the dumps are that (hint: the ones that are are no longer available). If they're not an exact copy, then there remains research to be done. If this is the case, then there has to be learning involved, which makes it the same as any of the "legal and moral" prep material available.
Just an opinion. | |
| chodan 2002-03-18, 8:36 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psydefx
See, for me purchasing an Ex** Cr** book, or anything else that states that it "covers the objectives" should be considered in the same pot
The vendors publish the exam objectives for a reason.
Mostly the objectives say "have knowledge of XYZ technology" which gives us leeway on how to proceed.
An Exam Cram or Sybex book tries to disseminate that statement into a bed of what it considers important knowledge to allow you to pass the test.
That is very different than a dump.
A dump is a test taker telling everyone what they remember of the test.
I get my info from a professional please.
Also putting prep material and dumps in the same light is also misleading and smells of self justification. | |
|
| quote:
Originally posted by chodan
Also putting prep material and dumps in the same light is also misleading and smells of self justification.
agreed... | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 9:26 pm |
| Freak & Chodan:
I apologize if the message that I am editing was read by you or anyone. Please understand that I am not justifying anything, and please don't use inuendo in my direction. I would appreciate that very much.
Thanks. | |
| Flyerzfan 2002-03-18, 10:02 pm |
| Psydefx makes some solid, logical arguments. I have yet to see anyone set forth (logically, not emotionally), what seperates a "study guide" from a "braindump". I think we all unanimously agree that someone who obtains certifications by simply memorizing questions and answers on a braindump site, with no research whatsoever, is not going to fare well in the real world. This (I would think) should serve as vindication for those who have obtained certs because they know the material. In a real world situation, the bozo who lucked into a job because he memorized a braindump and got certified, is inevitably going to be exposed and subsequently replaced by an individual who knows his/her stuff (even if that individual has used a braindump a part of their overall study curriculum). By changing the questions on a regular basis, the "braindump only" crowd would be weeded out rather quickly. This will not happen however, as the more people who think that they can pass a test by simply studying a braindump for a few days, the more people there will be willing to plunk down $100-$150 for a test, hence more money to Microsoft(which I am not begrudging MS for). In essence, there will be no concerted effort on the part of MS (or anyone else for that matter)to discourage people from taking their certification tests. In any event, I still have my doubts about the validity of the story that started this whole thread. You mean to tell me that if I browse to a site (like examnotes for example),which has "study guides", or links to sites that contain "braindumps" a certain number of times, my certs can be revoked? That's a slippery slope that I don't want to tread upon. Although, in all fairness, if you work for Microsoft, it may not be a wise idea to do ANY surfing at all to any sites that may land you in hot water. Based on sheer stupidity I would have had the guy's certs revoked, but not on any so-called "moral" or "ethical" grounds. | |
| freak 2002-03-18, 10:25 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psydefx
Freak & Chodan:
I apologize if the message that I am editing was read by you or anyone. Please understand that I am not justifying anything, and please don't use inuendo in my direction. I would appreciate that very much.
Thanks.
I have no problem with your post. I think that you are playing the devil's advocate to get the discussion to go further than the usual "for or against b-dump" type of discussion. My post was not meant against you, but more against the concept of "Well, others do it, others create study guides/prep tests, etc... so I can use it then"...
Sorry if it hurt your feelings. I respect you and your post and such was not my intention. | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-18, 11:24 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by freak
I have no problem with your post. I think that you are playing the devil's advocate to get the discussion to go further than the usual "for or against b-dump" type of discussion. My post was not meant against you, but more against the concept of "Well, others do it, others create study guides/prep tests, etc... so I can use it then"...
Sorry if it hurt your feelings. I respect you and your post and such was not my intention.
I am not trying to make the post go longer, play devils advocate, and I only took personally the "self justification" portion. Generally speaking, I don't justify myself to anyone. This is why I quit my job a month ago. They wanted me to justify why I spent $30.00. I think it's a waste of time.
I am trying to make what I feel are valid points to people who I see falling behind a banner I think is shakey (kinda like your banker telling you the house you pay a mortgage on is YOUR asset):
First of all, I don't really have much faith in the idea that everyone who publicly discredits dumps and dumpers has never used them in some way.
Second, I really don't believe there's a difference between Trans***** and dumps (except that they are correct and annotated), there used to be no difference at all.
Third, I don't think that study guides that direct study using a TOC and bullets instead of numbers and question marks are different. They are formatted differently, but THAT'S IT.
Fourth, Others have said it better, but the bottom line is that people who don't know DON'T KNOW. A brain dump may get them the job, but it's not going to keep it, and in today's world, you're likely to get laughed out of the interview.
So why is it that everytime I take a day to gander at posts I see all of these people with all of this banter about how piously they interact with the information? I argue because I truely see no difference between looking at dumps and buying a prep test/guide. I said it in the last one, if you want to talk about morals, buy the product (bet very few CERTIFIED people have (I have a box copy of ASRV on my shelf and am prob the only person I know who actually has a licensed copy of WinZip for every machine)), work with it, read tech net, then spend your $125.00 on testing. In either case, quit telling people how wrong it is to gather information required to obtain a goal. (Especially if dumps are posted by lamos who can't spell, remember, or ace the test.)
As a close, I may respond if there is some logical (thank you very much Flyerzfan) arguement, but as scorpyun2001 has under his messages: "There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell them.
- Louis Armstrong, 1956". I will leave it alone, as my real point is that talking about what other people do is a waste of time.
There are three types of people in the world:
Those that Make things happen (converse and communicate ideas)
Those that Watch what happens (converse and communicate events)
Those who Wonder what happened (converse and communicate about other people)
A mixture between Anonymous and Albert Einstein.
Cheers! | |
| wicket 2002-03-19, 12:28 am |
| Wow I'm impressed, extremely well put. I'm not jumping on any band wagon, but I agree with you and have for a long time. Where do you draw the line? I'm sure that every single person would have anywhere from a slight to drastic variation of view regarding this. So who do you want to voice your opinion for you? Microsoft? | |
| CyberDude 2002-03-19, 2:51 am |
| Well put and well done Psydefx! I only wish I had your communications aptitude. Are you thinking of going into politics in the near future, as they sure need a level headed guy like you. RESPECT. Come on people, lets vote for Psydefx now, and then send the application form off.. Peace bro. | |
| burukali 2002-03-19, 5:38 pm |
| back a long time ago... i ordered a t*** **** study guide... for my 70-210 and it was the only attachment in my Outlook i openned it and started to read through...saw that little saying on the bottom about are you sure nobody is hacking your network... i turned on my Antivirus and did a scan and what a surprise i had nimda... so i trashed my hard drive and everything in it... i don't know if that attachment was the cause of the infection or what... but i just could not risk... i had to reformat all the computers on my little network... well i do that alot any way... so i tried to keep away for stuff like that...i bought all the expensive Tran$******s and Ex** Cr** and just practiced and practiced and practiced... i just thank god i haven't failed yet... opps two more test to go... better knock on wood... any way wouldn't you fall on your Face if you Cheated and got hired for a job and they asked you to do all these different things that are part of being a MCSE.... i don't know just thought i would join the dump......  | |
| chodan 2002-03-19, 7:03 pm |
| Why is everyone putting the *** in names like trancender or examcram?
Are you afraid they will sue you or something??
CH*D*N | |
| nettechleo 2002-03-20, 5:10 am |
| I think that it is bull the way (MS) tries to throw its weight around. What about the 70-240, was that a joke or what. but now they are saying where you can get your info from??? well MS that bull and you know it. after taking and of course failing the 70-240, i have decieded to stop taking ms bullcrap tests. I dont use the bd's but sometimes any info you get can help considering the 30% curve. anyone who has taken the ms tests knows what i am talking about. as far as this poor sap being stripped of his certs my next question is, is ms refunding the cost of those certs, and if not they why not????? it's a shame having only 36Billion in cash and needing more from poor saps like us. signed NOT HAPPY WITH REDMOND | |
| chodan 2002-03-20, 10:49 am |
| Whats the 30% curve stuff? | |
| nettechleo 2002-03-20, 2:11 pm |
| The 30% curve is what MS uses to allow you to pass tests. If 100 people take the test and 100 people get a score of 100% only 30 of them will pass the test. MS uses this method to keep some prestige in the MCSE Cert. I have taken MANY MS tests and i refuse to take another considering the results of the 70-240. IF ANYONE PASSED IT PLEASE LET ME KNOW thanks NettechLeo | |
| chodan 2002-03-20, 2:35 pm |
| I highly doubt that "the 30% thing".
I am also sure you have no proof of it. | |
| chodan 2002-03-20, 3:31 pm |
| Because he can`t handle someone disagreeing with him.
He will send private messages with crude language instead of answering you publicly.
Pretty cowardly. | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-03-20, 3:37 pm |
| Webmaster can see them . . . he/she had better be careful . . . we have had people banned fromthis forum before. There is no reason to get abusive even if you disagree with someone. | |
| FloatingMonkey 2002-03-20, 3:40 pm |
| There is no way that MS does the 30% curve thing. They would have been sued a long time ago. If you know your stuff you will pass. | |
| Nicole 2002-03-20, 4:20 pm |
| quote:
The 30% curve is what MS uses to allow you to pass tests. If 100 people take the test and 100 people get a score of 100% only 30 of them will pass the test.
ROTFLMAO!
Oh, this ludicrous twist to the topic just made my (otherwise rather lousy) day.
I believe the correct phrase may be "a 30% pass rate." But that's just a guess. | |
| wbafrank 2002-03-20, 4:20 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by nettechleo The 30% curve is what MS uses to allow you to pass tests. If 100 people take the test and 100 people get a score of 100% only 30 of them will pass the test. MS uses this method to keep some prestige in the MCSE Cert. I have taken MANY MS tests and i refuse to take another considering the results of the 70-240. IF ANYONE PASSED IT PLEASE LET ME KNOW thanks NettechLeo
What a load of complete and utter garbage - there are no other words for this statement (well there is but I have kept it clean!!) | |
| nettechleo 2002-03-20, 6:12 pm |
| you started with me by calling me a moron & a liar so if you want me to post it i will. I don't hide from anyone i just thought that a personal message would be better that hanging out my "dirty laundry" but as i can see you like to hang yours out. as far as not liking people disagreeing with me that is not true either. Actually I love it because it show that people have an opinion and I think that everyone should. so with that i bid you a fair ado. good luck with whatever you do. NettechLeo | |
| nettechleo 2002-03-20, 6:18 pm |
| well it seems obvious that you people are either too stupid or too ignorant because this IS TRUE microsoft cannot post this somewhere on their site because of the obvious.
it seems to me that you people spend too much time picking apart other peoples FACTS. When you do find this out for yourselves a full apology will be in order. I will be waiting patiently. NettechLeo | |
| nettechleo 2002-03-20, 6:21 pm |
| By the way did ANY of you "non Braindumpers" pass the 70-240??? didn't think so NettechLeo | |
| wbafrank 2002-03-20, 6:28 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by nettechleo well it seems obvious that you people are either too stupid or too ignorant because this IS TRUE microsoft cannot post this somewhere on their site because of the obvious. it seems to me that you people spend too much time picking apart other peoples FACTS. When you do find this out for yourselves a fully apology will be in order. I will be waiting patiently. NettechLeo
I will only apologize if you can prove it - and this goes both ways!!
I must be a very lucky person as I have taken 19 MS exams and low and behold I have been one of the lucky 30% everytime. This has probably got nothing to do with the fact that I have the experience on all the systems/software, have studied and answered the questions correctly.
Are there any other 30% people out there? | |
| chodan 2002-03-20, 6:30 pm |
| Your saying its true because microsoft won`t admit its true?? | |
| nettechleo 2002-03-20, 6:32 pm |
| CHODAN GET A LIFE | |
| Nicole 2002-03-20, 6:51 pm |
| Just so I understand your position...
Are we supposed to feel sorry for you and/or hate Microsoft because you cheated and STILL didn't pass the 70-240?
or is it that...
Despite the notoriously difficult nature of 70-240, you think you got a 100% score (because you used braindumps written by a bunch of people that didn't pass the exam either) and Microsoft arbitrarily decided to fail you anyway? | |
| chodan 2002-03-20, 6:57 pm |
| You know why I didn`t pass 240?
I answered more questions wrong than right?My responsibility, I didn`t take it seriously.
But some people find it easier to blame microsoft than to study.
Microsoft is an easy target after all.
It doesn`t take much imagination to blame them does it?
I studied hard and passed each test individually.
I take responsibility for that also | |
| nettechleo 2002-03-20, 7:14 pm |
| well it seems we have 1 man in the group!!!chodan i am not blaming ANYONE for me not passing the test, i think that that test was a MAJOR FALIURE for ms. I give you an A for effort on taking the test. But i still don't see ANYONE ELSE coming forward with info on even taking the test. by the way why is that??? i DO NOT USE braindumps i think that most of the info is WAY WRONG well i could go on but i must get so rest before work will be back on in the morning, NettechLeo | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-20, 7:34 pm |
| nettechleo:
I can see how you could think that MS is doing this with their tests. Often times I have found their questions quite confusing, as I'm sure you have also. I am not one to write about my successes with the tests, I, in fact, have failed almost as many tests as I have passed. Some people might think I like donating to vendors, the truth of the matter is that sometimes I don't prepare well enough. The 240 is one of my best examples. Not only did I fail the 240, I also had to retake the 216. I also had quite a thing for retaking the 81 (5 times). What really sparked my ire was that I had just finished deploying a 150+ ws network where I upgraded CCMail 3.something obnoxious to exchange 5.5 (w/i the BackOffice Suite), w/o the import export files (Lotus wouldn't provide upgrade steps to 7.x (time) without my client purchasing all of the upgrades). Can you say CSVMAN?
Anyway, too late to make a long story short, but what you put forth as MS's way of making their MCSE a little more credible challenges my experiences. I have spent the last year teaching for a company who outsources engineers. These people work with high level equipment and support issues every work day, and therefore have a GREAT foundation for the material (we supported (they still do) the 2nd largest FRASI ipmlementation existing with a 1500+ access point WAN). Upgrading their certifications from NT 4.0 evened out to being a 3 week training process. The bottom line, we had an 82% pass rate on exams (including 240 and 216).
The other reason I am finding it challenging is the way tests are delivered. In my previous position, we were also a Testing Center. We deployed tests @ the end of the training (and during). The tests are DLed from a global access point, with a secure connection. At the end of the test, you get a grade. The theory would have to include two prominent companies that also handle the testing of pilots who certify for the FAA, etc.
Please let me know if my observations are incorrect, as I have quite a bit of money wrapped up in this, and tend to encourage others to invest in this and other certification programs also. If you could also provide me some research points to follow up, I would much appreciate it.
Thanks. | |
| parag_c_mehta 2002-03-21, 12:37 am |
| Got what he deserved! No I don't support about him hanging till death! | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-03-21, 6:58 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by nettechleo
well it seems we have 1 man in the group!!!chodan i am not blaming ANYONE for me not passing the test, i think that that test was a MAJOR FALIURE for ms. I give you an A for effort on taking the test. But i still don't see ANYONE ELSE coming forward with info on even taking the test. by the way why is that??? i DO NOT USE braindumps i think that most of the info is WAY WRONG well i could go on but i must get so rest before work will be back on in the morning, NettechLeo
You still haven't offered any evidence for what you have said. | |
| MistyRing 2002-03-21, 8:13 am |
| quote:
But i still don't see ANYONE ELSE coming forward with info on even taking the test. by the way why is that???
If it helps I passed the 240. No braindumps.
And let's face it who could memorize that amount of questions anyway? It was 4 hour exam and there must be numerous permuations. Impossible. | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-03-21, 8:40 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by chodan
Because he can`t handle someone disagreeing with him.
He will send private messages with crude language instead of answering you publicly.
Pretty cowardly.
Yes, so I have noticed. He/she/it slammed me in a PM for defending your position. I have learned that the certs that I am trying for are not "real" and that I should "grow up and get a life" because I disagree with nettechleo. Gosh, I have so much to learn! | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-21, 1:10 pm |
| REALLY?
I got a PM from nettechleo as well, the only thing that was said was really a question of how I have so much time to spend on the boards.
No profanity, no slander, no accusations. I have disagreed with about everyone on the board, and have not had this experience.
I hope everyone's experiences improve!
CH*D*N
I have gotten into the habit of using the asterisk with brand names because I have noticed others doing it. I assumed that this was to keep topics off of a particular brand name, and when I saw it, I followed suit. Please let me know if that is not the proper way to refer to a company or product. Thanks for letting me know what's up.
Cheers! | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-03-21, 1:14 pm |
| Might be best just to ignore him. I added him to my ignore list. Anyway, cheers! | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-21, 1:15 pm |
| <> | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-03-21, 1:17 pm |
| I think people sued to do that with UNIX . . . used to speall it like UN*X after it became proprietary, but I don't think it actually carries any weight. Probably just a custom that some of us have gotten into. | |
| CyberDude 2002-03-21, 1:24 pm |
| How can you say that you have taken many MS exams when you are only an MCSE in one flavour, which means that you amy have say a maximum of 7 exam passes. The 240 is the only MS exam I have failed so far, and that was purely my fault. I only gave myself twp weeks to prepare (as I was studying for and passing other exam thtoughout last year), plus as it was free I did not really care if I failed or not. My friend took it, and afterwards he said that even though he passed it via his NT experience, he did not really know 2000, so he then restudied and took all 7 exams within ten weeks. You have to also remember that this forum is for helping people, and being abusive. If you are still a member here, then please be thankful and take a chill pill. What I had heard about the 240 was that there was only about a 30% pass rate during its life-cycle, but you also have to remember that at the same time 2000 was only deployed in about the same percentage of companies (and I believe it is still not in the majority of companies now) which is why MS reversed its decision to expire MCSE NT4. If you think MS questions are worded strangely sometimes, just ask anyone who has taken Novell, Cisco and CompTIA exams. Just because you dont pass something does not mean you do not know the material, it just means that you were not 100% ready. You should turn any failure into a positive learning experience.
Well that' my page worth, and I think most people will agree with me. | |
| Matt1999 2002-03-21, 1:26 pm |
| If Microsoft wanted less people to pass their test, wouldn't they simply increase the passing score? I'm sure everyone taking these tests are not getting 100%. I doubt that Microsoft's policy would include failing someone who answered 100% of their questions right.
"The 30% curve is what MS uses to allow you to pass tests. If 100 people take the test and 100 people get a score of 100% only 30 of them will pass the test. MS uses this method to keep some prestige in the MCSE Cert." | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-21, 1:39 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by CyberDude
How can you ...
To whom was this directed? | |
| wbafrank 2002-03-21, 1:46 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psydefx
To whom was this directed?
I believe this is directed at the individual who started 30% curve rubbish. | |
| CyberDude 2002-03-21, 1:49 pm |
| Thanks Frank, I forgot to direct my post. Yes it was to that person. | |
| Nicole 2002-03-21, 1:51 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by The VMS Kid
Might be best just to ignore him. I added him to my ignore list. Anyway, cheers!
But sometimes it's FUN to feed the trolls!
| |
| The VMS Kid 2002-03-21, 1:54 pm |
| Maybe someone need to put up a "DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS" sign. | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-21, 2:11 pm |
| Is it possible that the way we react to posts (Im guilty, call me a hypocrite) can determine whether or not a person will react like a troll? I have endeavored to correct my mannerisms on this board in order to alleviate that possibility. Part of my original arguement for this post was based (and lost because of MY reaction) on not flaming people because we think their information is incorrect. It doesn't really matter if the people in question are a part of the board, or the subject of a reference. Generally speaking, if you're taking the time to tell someone they're wrong, it may be worth the time to tell them in a way which will be palatable to them. Why? Because though they may be "wrong" on a particular point, they may have a vast array of knowledge that you will never know about just because you didn't take the time to treat them as you might like to be treated if you were "wrong".
I encapsulate the word because in many situations that I come across, there is more than one "right" answer.
I think that this is actually a good synopsis of what all of my posts to this thread have been trying (not so effectively) to say.
Cheers! | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-03-21, 2:13 pm |
| I agree, but all I said was that if he was going to make claims like that, it would be nice to have something to back it up. And that is not really an excuse for PMing people being extremely rude. I don't think that I said anything disrespectful enough for that kind of a reaction, and I don't think Chodan did either. | |
| chodan 2002-03-21, 2:17 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Psydefx
CH*D*N
I have gotten into the habit of using the asterisk with brand names because I have noticed others doing it. I assumed that this was to keep topics off of a particular brand name, and when I saw it, I followed suit. Please let me know if that is not the proper way to refer to a company or product. Thanks for letting me know what's up.
Cheers!
AAHH
I though it was something maybe the webmaster had requested although I couldn`t find it in the guidelines.
Leave it to me to read too much into something hehe | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-21, 2:24 pm |
| Please read the reactions that were received. They are not favorable from the start, pretty much everyone jumped on the bandwagon to thwart the claim. Before publicizing how wrong it is, we might accept the POSSIBILITY that it is right, acknowledge the background of the individual, and speak from what we know to be true (showing evidence to provide an example), and keep an open mind to the possibility. We do not have to make decisions based upon a piece of information that does not agree with our prior experience, but we also are not going to learn all we can if we do not accept that our information may be incomplete. The real key is that all of this can be done without publicly discrediting A PERSON. The replies do not have to include any personal reference. And often times, if they do not, and are not inflamitory, they will be responded to with more informaion rather than defensive conversational tactics that will eventually lead to tumultuous behavior by both parties (leaving the real point that everyone could learn from far in the past).
Cheers! | |
| The VMS Kid 2002-03-21, 2:53 pm |
| Well, excuse me! HE was the one starting the insulting here, not us. | |
| Psydefx 2002-03-21, 3:04 pm |
| It was not my intention to offend. My post might not have been written well enough to avoid misinterpretation, and I apologize.
What I was trying to express is that we control only our reactions to others, not their reactions to us. This is my reaction to what you posted, not what I expect you to do or say, because I am not in control of or responsible for your reaction.
Again I apologize for any posting that has offended you or anyone else, or caused any discomfort. I am only sharing ideas that I have found valuable, and continue to learn and envelop as habits within the course of my day.
Cheers! | |
| chodan 2002-03-21, 5:47 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by chodan
I highly doubt that "the 30% thing".
I am also sure you have no proof of it.
That is what I said.
It did not warrant a lude private message. | |
| CyberDude 2002-03-22, 1:49 pm |
| I totally agree with the preceding trio here, hello guys, and I think it is time to stop the wet remarks and apologies and lets all just chill. This thread has been drawn way off its original track by all our emotions. There is a lesson to remember here, and that is even the solitude of a forum can be dessicrated by human instinct. PEACE. | |
| saggitarius 2002-03-22, 4:46 pm |
| Yes, I agree with you...to a point. I believe he should have been busted for giving out questions and answers the way he did when the rest of us bust our bottoms to read whatever literature we can to help us get through our exams. But do you not think it is unfair of certain corporations to place irrelevant questions, which do not pertain to the test being taken, on the test which you most desired to be certified for? I am finding that questions which pertain to a different module or field are found on an exam which has nothing to do with that particular exam. Therefore, I have learned from my own experience to read more than what is needed. Some of us do not have the time to completely involve our lives into endless reading of material which may not impact the everyday worklife. I know many of you feel there are 'paper' MCSEs out there...I agree. There are. I have one such individual in class. | |