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God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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| enforcer 2002-10-24, 9:46 am |
| Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality
who dispenses advice to people who call in to her
radio show. Recently, she said that, as an
observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an
abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and
cannot be condoned under any circumstance.
The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura
penned by a US resident, Jim, which was posted on the
Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people
regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal
from your show, and try to share that knowledge
with as many people as I can. When someone tries to
defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I
simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly
states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding
some of the other specific laws and how to follow
them.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a
sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for
the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I
smite them?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into
slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this
day and age, what do you think would be a fair
price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a
woman while she is in her period of menstrual
cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do
I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take
offense.
4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess
slaves, both male and female, provided they are
purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of
mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own
Canadians?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on
the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should
be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him
myself?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though
eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10,
it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the
altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have
to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle
room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair
trimmed, including the hair around their temples,
even though this is expressly forbidden by
Lev.19:27.
How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the
skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I
still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19
by planting two different crops in the same field,
as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot.
Is it really necessary that we go to all the
trouble of getting the whole town together to stone
them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to
death at a private family affair like we do with
people who sleep with their in-laws? ! (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively,
so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for
reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.
Your devoted fan,
Jim | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-24, 10:08 am |
| Very funny! | |
| Teck Shark 2002-10-24, 10:15 am |
| LOL | |
| denis_baribeau 2002-10-24, 1:37 pm |
| LOL funny ok
My wife listen to her on the computer faithfully averyday.She is a strange woman .(Dr Laura that is ) Ok so is my wife. | |
| thecomeons 2002-10-24, 2:38 pm |
| my wife is a cow and i worship her. but don't tell moses. | |
| loopbacklady 2002-10-24, 5:53 pm |
| That Jim is one intelligent dude.
Great letter! Someone needs to send it to that twit, Jerry Falwell. Wish he'd choke on it... | |
| xonkers 2002-10-24, 5:59 pm |
| Im not a fan of Dr. Laura but that reply she received is funny because its written by someone confused and unable to discern yet they really think they 'hung Laura with her own rope hehe'
There is nothing funnier than someone 'proudly debunking' something while not being aware they are exposing their own ignorance LOL!
The author fails to put anything into context either historical or to whom those laws were made etc.
Some events like Slavery and many wives are simply recorded as what people were doing at that time - not always 'sanctioned laws' or 'endorsed' by God.
Also funny is people continually make idiotic comments like 'its in the bible!'. That is great Einstien.. so is everything men can do. so read what and HOW its in the Bible.
Unlike Dr. Laura, I believe those laws were put in place to prove how impossible it is to follow them and that it leads to bondage to rules and regulations.
Just in case anybody wanted to have a good smug laugh at this 'silly rules god' I would suggest you might stop and consider this:
He is already one step ahead of you on that one - and waiting for you to take the next logical step. So what if these Laws are impossible to follow and cant help us??
Then what?
 | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-24, 8:08 pm |
| So what is the bottom line here? Is the point that it is perfectly normal and perfectly moral for a man to do another man? Everyone gets a good laugh. What do we do next, laugh our way into justifying the murders commited by the DC Sniper? Dr. Laura is not perfect, but in this continually collapsing world of ours how many people even try to stand up for any form of decency. It has come to the point where anyone who supports anything good in the world is accused of being corny, or worse. How many people are left who will condemn the notion of sex outside of marriage? Yet, all the major religions teach that recreational sex is an affront to the creator. Why don't we all just start doing whatever makes us feel good at any given moment in time, and to hell with anyone else. To hell with honor. To hell with truth. To hell with self-denial. To hell with discipline. To hell with decency. Is this the end game? | |
| xonkers 2002-10-24, 10:08 pm |
| I know what you are saying exactly .. Its gotten to where the only thing that is considered 'really immoral' is actually suggesting that something might be wrong!
It used to be that even criminals agreed that idealy you 'should aim' for certain understood good morals. It didnt mean you did always - you just agreed there was a right or wrong
NOw you try and make a comment on morality and BLAM - you get shot down with the famous 'Hypocrite' bullet faster than you can say 'Ethical'.
Crazy world. I do agree with most of Dr. Lauras ideas and so what if she stands firm on her beliefs - Howard Stern believes in BJ's and mocking people and no one viciously goes after him like they do Laura.
I just dont care for her style or presentation so I dont really listen to her much. | |
| azimuth40 2002-10-24, 11:46 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
Why don't we all just start doing whatever makes us feel good at any given moment in time, and to hell with anyone else. To hell with honor. To hell with truth. To hell with self-denial. To hell with discipline. To hell with decency. Is this the end game?
I don't think so Tech Ranger its been tried before and it never works, honor, decency and discipline always win. Last time I think they called it the 60's before that it was the roaring 20's and befor.... all the way back to that pair of cities. Now what did I do with that apple....
-------
On a lighter note: Would we know and end game if we saw one. The Giants and Angels sure don't know yet. | |
| enforcer 2002-10-25, 3:23 am |
| some of you guys could start an argument out of anything, the thread was supposed to be light hearted and not taken seriously.
confusion say:
remember the gifted lawyer, who managed to prove white was black and black was white. Who then promptly got run over at the next zebra crossing.
and i'm ready to be flammed, but beware
http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/flamethrower.gif | |
| HOOLIGAN 2002-10-25, 4:45 am |
| quote:
some of you guys could start an argument out of anything, the thread was supposed to be light hearted and not taken seriously.
You know the saying ' never talk about politics, money and religion'.
It does annoy me how the Christian right quote from the old testament about alcohol and tatoos etc, leaving out the more bazaar laws on fashon, rituals and stoning disobedient children etc.
Though, I totaly agree with techrangers point.
If your up for a laugh Enforcer, try and find Dr Lauras show broadcast online, its funny. | |
| thecomeons 2002-10-25, 5:12 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
Is this the end game?
you mean ragnarok? | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-25, 5:39 am |
| It has come to the point where anyone who supports anything good in the world is accused of being corny, or worse.
Then I would be the first accused of being corny, or worse For me, if I don't do good, I have missed it. I did bad for long enough during my younger days, and it cost me big time--not going there now.
I was wondering why we cannot just call this a healthy debate by mature people, instead of an argument even though there is nothing really wrong with arguing as long as it is productive?
I agree with one of the posters about Dr. Laura's delivery. However, using Leviticus failed her miserably. She don't have the best of delivery, but she does lay it on the line for some of her callers, and that will always get you toasted.
I don't really care to listen to her, but I stand for righteousness and I think she has helped some people to stand for something, instead of falling for everything. Maybe at times, she does more damage than good. I guess that could be debated, too.
However, on a more important point, the Word of God is clear about "man doing a man," and that isn't Old Testament law, but New Testament truth. It is basically base immorality and such individuals are filled with all unrighteousness and termed a, "reprobate mind....haters of God." Ref: Romans 1:24-32
Maybe we should argue with God on this one?
Peace! | |
| enforcer 2002-10-25, 5:55 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Luchnia
[b]
Maybe we should argue with God on this one?
let him register here on examnotes and we will, believe me we will  | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-25, 6:24 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
So what is the bottom line here? Is the point that it is perfectly normal and perfectly moral for a man to do another man? Everyone gets a good laugh. What do we do next, laugh our way into justifying the murders commited by the DC Sniper? Dr. Laura is not perfect, but in this continually collapsing world of ours how many people even try to stand up for any form of decency. It has come to the point where anyone who supports anything good in the world is accused of being corny, or worse. How many people are left who will condemn the notion of sex outside of marriage? Yet, all the major religions teach that recreational sex is an affront to the creator. Why don't we all just start doing whatever makes us feel good at any given moment in time, and to hell with anyone else. To hell with honor. To hell with truth. To hell with self-denial. To hell with discipline. To hell with decency. Is this the end game?
Since when does owning other people or condemning children to death for disobedience make one honourable or decent? | |
| MistyRing 2002-10-25, 7:42 am |
| quote:
However, on a more important point, the Word of God is clear about "man doing a man," and that isn't Old Testament law, but New Testament truth. It is basically base immorality and such individuals are filled with all unrighteousness and termed a, "reprobate mind....haters of God." Ref: Romans 1:24-32
As far as I'm led to believe, no-one chooses to be gay, or to be straight for that matter. You either are or you're not. So if god exists and is so dead against it, why did he create homosexuals? | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-25, 7:53 am |
| quote:
Since when does owning other people or condemning children to death for disobedience make one honourable or decent?
As a previous poster said, let's hyperanalyze, over-rationalize, and maybe we can argue against decency. What am I supposed to say in response to this post? I'm sorry, I made a mistake, maybe no one should stand up for decency. Maybe the direction that the world is going is fine, maybe 14 year old teens with a big belly is fine, maybe pictures of people having oral sex next to the potatoe chips in convenience stores across America is fine? There always has to be a lawyer in the crowd. I have to bow my head in disgust and admit that maybe, just maybe, we have gone so far over the edge, there is no hope. The lesson to be learned here is that even advocating for decency has become taboo. | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-25, 8:32 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
As a previous poster said, let's hyperanalyze, over-rationalize, and maybe we can argue against decency. What am I supposed to say in response to this post? I'm sorry, I made a mistake, maybe no one should stand up for decency. Maybe the direction that the world is going is fine, maybe 14 year old teens with a big belly is fine, maybe pictures of people having oral sex next to the potatoe chips in convenience stores across America is fine? There always has to be a lawyer in the crowd. I have to bow my head in disgust and admit that maybe, just maybe, we have gone so far over the edge, there is no hope. The lesson to be learned here is that even advocating for decency has become taboo.
You ingored my whole point. I never said teen pregnancy was OK. But by stating that whatever the Bible says is 100% OK, you sacntion many things which are certainly not decent. Going in the direction that it points out to use is hardly an improvement.
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... all the men of the city shall stone him with stones, that he die .... (Deuternonomy 21:18, 21).
Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD . 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " (1 Samuel 15:2-3).
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Ba'laam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that
hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.' (Numbers, Chapter 31: 15-18)
Is this your idea of decency? | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-25, 10:13 am |
| quote:
Is this your idea of decency?
Interesting note here, this has nothing to do with decency, but has everything to do with justice. Exactly why were all the Amalekites to be destroyed?
Let me ask you a question. If you knew there was an evil seed that had no chance of change, then would it be just in destroying such seed? If you understand this, you will understand why even the infants had to be destroyed, even down to every beast of the field.
Here is an example: Say for instance that Osama Bin Ladin came from wicked seed in the wound that no good could come from--totally corrupt--totally dark. In other words, no ability to repent of evil and change his ways. Would it be unjust, if he was rid from the earth at birth?
Now if we would see someone kill him at infancy back in that time, we would think they are unrighteous in doing so, but if there were no place for change from him, then that would be totally just. Although now, everyone wants this evil-doer dead. Now, I am not sure about Osama being able to change, but I do know about the Amalekites.
Just a little food for thought on this matter. I know, we as Americans can rarely even think that there is no possibility for someone to change, but in God's word there were times that the wicked were to be removed because of this very thing.
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ---.
Why were the Amalekites to be put out of remembrance before heaven?
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
Exodus 17:15-16
And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovah-nissi: [16] For he said, Because the Lord hath sworn that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.
Would there have been the possibility of repentance from the Amalekites? It isn't true in all scriptural instances that men could not change, but once you understand the origination of the Amalekites, then you understand why they had to be destroyed.
This evil seed had to be totally destroyed and rid from the face of the earth. This war was carried on by Ehud (Judges 3:13-15); Barak (Judges 5:15); Gideon (Judges 6:3); Saul (1 Samuel 15); Samuel (1 Samuel 15:32-33); David (1 Samuel 27:8; 1 Samuel 30:1-17; 2 Samuel 8:12); and completed by Simeonites in the days of Hezekiah (1 Chron. 4:42-43).
God is not unjust in any actions that have occurred, as there is no darkness in Him. If there exist misunderstanding, it exist within us and our lack of knowledge, and of course, lack of knowledge can get us destroyed.
Peace | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-25, 10:17 am |
| Mr. Linux Guy, I was only speaking on behalf of goodness and propriety. You, on the other hand, have taken this as another opportunity to express your anti-Chrisrtian, anti-Jewish, anti-western agenda. Have fun. | |
| ruscorp 2002-10-25, 10:27 am |
| This thread is too taboo for me. | |
| enforcer 2002-10-25, 10:31 am |
| I preferred the sweatest taboo by sade myself | |
| HOOLIGAN 2002-10-25, 10:34 am |
| Correct me if Im wrong, but the old testament laws no longer apply.
Though I dont remember my parents being around when I was 'stoned' at the edge of town.  | |
| enforcer 2002-10-25, 10:37 am |
| I did warn you about going to see mick jagger and the rest of them rolling people | |
| ruscorp 2002-10-25, 10:54 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by enforcer
I did warn you about going to see mick jagger and the rest of them rolling people
Don't bring Mick into this. He did no wrong to you (expect for singing bad music). | |
|
|
| enforcer 2002-10-25, 11:10 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by ruscorp
Don't bring Mick into this. He did no wrong to you (expect for singing bad music).
no surprise you're sticking up for him. think i'll add him to myn list, with those lips he must suck good | |
| ruscorp 2002-10-25, 11:14 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by enforcer
no surprise you're sticking up for him. think i'll add him to myn list, with those lips he must suck good
By lips I believe you mean Steven Tyler right? | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-25, 1:02 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
Mr. Linux Guy, I was only speaking on behalf of goodness and propriety. You, on the other hand, have taken this as another opportunity to express your anti-Chrisrtian, anti-Jewish, anti-western agenda. Have fun.
I was simply quoting the Bible. I am not anti-Jewish, or anti-Western, merely becasue I criticise something that I consider to be immoral. Killing people I would consider an impropriety as well. Sadly not all others feel this way. | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-25, 1:04 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Luchnia
Interesting note here, this has nothing to do with decency, but has everything to do with justice. Exactly why were all the Amalekites to be destroyed?
Let me ask you a question. If you knew there was an evil seed that had no chance of change, then would it be just in destroying such seed? If you understand this, you will understand why even the infants had to be destroyed, even down to every beast of the field.
Here is an example: Say for instance that Osama Bin Ladin came from wicked seed in the wound that no good could come from--totally corrupt--totally dark. In other words, no ability to repent of evil and change his ways. Would it be unjust, if he was rid from the earth at birth?
Now if we would see someone kill him at infancy back in that time, we would think they are unrighteous in doing so, but if there were no place for change from him, then that would be totally just. Although now, everyone wants this evil-doer dead. Now, I am not sure about Osama being able to change, but I do know about the Amalekites.
Just a little food for thought on this matter. I know, we as Americans can rarely even think that there is no possibility for someone to change, but in God's word there were times that the wicked were to be removed because of this very thing.
1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ---.
Why were the Amalekites to be put out of remembrance before heaven?
Exodus 17:14
And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
Exodus 17:15-16
And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovah-nissi: [16] For he said, Because the Lord hath sworn that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.
Would there have been the possibility of repentance from the Amalekites? It isn't true in all scriptural instances that men could not change, but once you understand the origination of the Amalekites, then you understand why they had to be destroyed.
This evil seed had to be totally destroyed and rid from the face of the earth. This war was carried on by Ehud (Judges 3:13-15); Barak (Judges 5:15); Gideon (Judges 6:3); Saul (1 Samuel 15); Samuel (1 Samuel 15:32-33); David (1 Samuel 27:8; 1 Samuel 30:1-17; 2 Samuel 8:12); and completed by Simeonites in the days of Hezekiah (1 Chron. 4:42-43).
God is not unjust in any actions that have occurred, as there is no darkness in Him. If there exist misunderstanding, it exist within us and our lack of knowledge, and of course, lack of knowledge can get us destroyed.
Peace
Assuming that those you dislike are an "evil seed" is an easy way of avoiding the immorality of your actions. I am afraid that no argument will ever get me to say that it is Ok to kill childrem regardless of their nationality. | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-25, 1:27 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Linux Guy
Assuming that those you dislike are an "evil seed" is an easy way of avoiding the immorality of your actions. I am afraid that no argument will ever get me to say that it is Ok to kill childrem regardless of their nationality.
I am not sure it has much to do with dislike as that is a rather light word for wicked evil-doers. I don't know why I would assume that someone I dislike is evil seed. There is a great difference between disliking someone and judgment upon evil-doers. I do believe the Amalekites got just judgment.
I can certainly understand your view and agree that it is not OK to kill children today. I certainly did not mean to imply it was OK to kill children at this time, and I hope it did not appear that I did imply such.
In my view what happened concerning the Amalekites has nothing to do with what we are to do today. It is there for our understanding of what happened to a wicked people full or darkness and evil.
Peace | |
| ccieToBe 2002-10-25, 3:26 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
Mr. Linux Guy, I was only speaking on behalf of goodness and propriety. You, on the other hand, have taken this as another opportunity to express your anti-Chrisrtian, anti-Jewish, anti-western agenda. Have fun.
Where did that come from? Tone it down please. I think Mr. Linux Guy has made some very valid points.
It's been my observation that many people - not just Christians, Jews, or whoever else you think Mr. Linux Guy is against tend to pick out the parts of their religion's beliefs that they like, and ignore other parts. I think that was the point of starting this thread. Dr. Laura Schlessinger choose to quote this as a basis for one belief, yet probably doesn't believe in many of the others stated in Leviticus. | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-25, 5:58 pm |
| I agree. I am not anti-American or anti-Jewish or anything. But to me there are many more vital things to argue about than someone else's sexual orientation, which I fail to see is anyone else's business but the people involved. There are people dying around the globe, and evangelists choose to talk of things that for the most part, to me, seem irrelevant. There are a lot of odd things in the Bible and other scriptures, and I don't think it is cool to just take those which support your point of view and classify everyone else as immoral. No offence was intended. And BTW, speaking your mind about religion and other things is about the most American thing I can think of . . . far better than letting others decide what you should think. | |
| xonkers 2002-10-26, 12:32 am |
| This site isnt in Americam, its just in cyber-earth isnt it?
Well anyway, I dont care for many of the television evangelists - who many non-christians wrongly believe are accurate representations of christendom.
Most churches on sundays will be talking about individual responsibility, fairness, love, wages of sin, redemption, justification and issues of the heart.
Homosexuality, in common church thinking, is usually deemed to be just one of the things that can damage a persons chance for happiness and joy and reaching their best in life. Thats what I think too. same for alcoholism, gossip, vindictiveness and many more. I never agree with hating and attacking people going through those things.
To everybody in here who is posturising themselves as pro-homosexual.. I would just ask you to consider that maybe accepting and encouraging that behaviour in others may very well turn out to be the cruelest and most destructive things you ever did to those people.
Well anyway thats just my opinion, I might be right. | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-26, 8:45 am |
| Good points, I am curious about something. How does homosexuality help anyone in anyway, shape, or form? I am not sure this subject gets approached from this angle very often. Even though God forbids this lifestyle and is against the unnatural use of our bodies, we can still look at the deliverables that come along with such actions of an individual. This need not take much knowledge to see the wrongs involved.
Usually, disease, broken families, lacivious acts, mental problems, suicide, harm to others, etc. are by-products of this unnatural lifestyle. But as the other poster implied, many things are unwholesome and the end results are bad.
In whatever way an individual can, he or she should use tact in warning such individuals of their dangerous lifestyles and the end results of the lifestyle.
Isn't it our oblidged moral duty to help them find a way to right living, if at all possible? If a man doesn't know what is right, he is in far greater danger of being misled.
At any rate, some good food for thought.
Peace | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-26, 8:57 am |
| I do bad things. My job is to recognize that and seek help from a universal power to change and be forgiven. I don't hate people who have problems with temptations, but I can't allow myself to condone behavior, whether my own or that of others, which I know in my heart violates the principles of not only my faith, but of every major faith system on this planet. I have had friends who are attracted to people of the same sex. That problem is between them and their maker. Having said that, I know that giving in to the temptation to do something wrong is wrong, and we each have our share of those things in our lives. If we pull out conceptually a single transgression like lying, there should be no taboo against condemning the act of lying. We are not condemning any individuals. We, ourselves, lie. Condemning the act of lying is merely recognizing the difference between right and wrong. Often, when homosexuality is discussed, those who verbalize the notion that this is a transgression are accused of hating people. In my case, at least, nothing could be further from the truth. Although I don't have homosexuality as an issue to grapple with in my life, I have many others. We all do. I have an awful temper. I often say things that hurt other people. I condemn this behavior. But, I love myself. I am a child of the creator, however you choose to understand the idea of a creator. If you don't believe in a creator, please forgive my intrusion into your life. | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-26, 9:15 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Techranger
I don't hate people who have problems with temptations, but I can't allow myself to condone behavior, whether my own or that of others, which I know in my heart violates the principles of not only my faith, but of every major faith system on this planet.
Very well put. We should never hate the people that have the problems but the problem and the evil behind the problem.
There are many wrongs that do not have the effect that homosexual lifestyle has. When someone goes against the natural use of their body, they have done a wrong against the very constitution of their being. They have flawed the brillience and purpose of the design and above all, the intent behind the design.
quote:
Originally posted by Techranger
I have an awful temper. I often say things that hurt other people. I condemn this behavior.
This is a key mark of maturity. The fact that you admit a problem you have and know you must act upon getting it right stands boldy in the face of those that justify wrong-doing no matter the cost of the wrong-doing.
I applaud you for this. | |
| azimuth40 2002-10-26, 11:31 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
I have an awful temper. I often say things that hurt other people.
Well that depends on what the definition of "I" is. Never known you to have an awful temper, wierd temper maybe. What's a Tech Ranger to do, you are from N.Y. so we excuse it Wierd sense of humor too but that is "I" also.
We all work or should work on ways to make ourselves better people. That is a commendable trait. Those that do not make such a commitment have an unknown fate waiting for them regardless of their belief systems. | |
|
| That's a great letter.
Where I work they listen to a local AM radio station and her program airs about noon.
Usually we shut the radio off then or change the channel. | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-27, 9:12 am |
| quote:
Usually we shut the radio off then or change the channel.
Let's forget about Laura. Who, in the media, do you admire, who is championing decency, morality, doing the right thing, not giving in to the desire for immediate gratification, standing on principle for what is right despite the sacrifices, etc. Please name someone. The problem is not Laura. The problem is us. | |
| sevenal7 2002-10-27, 10:05 am |
| Let's share it.
Can we love one child above others?
Is there not a spot in our hearts that
is still a child.
Obey thy Father!
We can "at least" agree to pray for,
or wish the best for our Brothers & Sisters.
g/l with all the issues most of us do not understand being merely children of the
all seeing and all knowing. | |
| mbradri 2002-10-27, 12:53 pm |
|  I hope none of this stuff is going to be on the exams. | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-27, 1:53 pm |
| HAHAHAHA....that was funny. Got me to thinking, if this were on an exam we would all fail What would we call the Cert, L.I.F.E.?
In addition, Techranger's statement made me think about what radio personality actually stood for anything of merit these days. Talk about probing my head for a decent radio personality. I realized it was all self-interest and greed for the most part.
They play the "game" watching the carrot dangle in front of their faces while trying to nibble at a little chunk at the time. They are very misled and deceived. It's like the Hollywood actor, or actress, that has to plant a fake smile on their faces, it exist outwardly, but they are miserable on the inside.
Although, not much of a radio listener, I could not come up with anyone much when thinking about this. Although, I do not care for Dr. Laura, she does have some good points in her program.
Dr. Laura could have proved her point from the New Testament instead of using Leviticus to do so. That way the individual that replied to her in the letter would have had no ground to refute her points that would be of any validity.
I thought about the many TV news reporters and all they do is bring evil reports against us all. I rarely watch TV because most of it is very much like toilet water, it is dirty and needs to be flushed down the drain.
Here is a good example. Look at Katey Curreck (Sp?), the woman takes people's griefs and grinds the person's heart to a pulp while gaining profits from such hardships. How can a person in such a position sacrifice conscience for ratings? It is a lust for power and it is is always amazing to me what people will do for power.
People like this think they are on top of the world and yet, they are at the lowest possible point one can be at.
Wow....I am getting better at this, this was almost a rant! 
Peace | |
| mmgm76 2002-10-27, 3:30 pm |
| Just a quick note here people...although not a scholar on Jewish faith, nor Jewish myself, Dr. Laura's quote will need to derive from Old Testament, as I believe the Jewish faith not only remains in waiting for their "Messiah," but lends little credence to those books of the Bible penned by New Testament authors.
I concur with those thoughts discussed earlier regarding admiration of Dr. Laura for simply attempting to stand up and be a voice for some form of "morality," regardless of my views on her particular standard of what morality is. In light of her belief system, she is working within her boundaries of what morality should look like, even though I tend to see her form of "Old Testament morality" through "New Testament glasses." I applaud her attempts to "assist" society in trying to look at their individual choices and actions with a more microscopic Biblical view. Quite frankly, the easy road to travel is to stand on moral relativism, and simply state that "if it feels good, do it." Gee, last time I looked, the 60's left us with such great results from this mindset. That is why it is commonplace today to have the airwaves covered by Howard Stern knockoffs, yet there is tremendous public outcry when someone is willing to publically state that hedonism at its purest form is self-destructive.
More I think about it, even from a historical sense, every morally-reletivistic society, regardless of complexity, always ends up in ashes when actions viewed as hedonistic one day are deemed appropriate and legal on another....Rome seems to come to mind here. Wonder when our turn is coming....
How does that old adage go..."history tends to repeat itself?" Better yet, here's a better adage that I tend to agree with: "Just because it's legal, doesn't make it right or good for me." | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-27, 4:02 pm |
| In my lifetime there have been changes in attitudes that are mind boggling. When I was a kid, divorce was not a routine life style, teenage pregnancy was rare, the broadcast media was well regulated as to content, even thieves would take your money and run (now they slit your throat for the fun of it), sex before marriage was going on, but most of those who did it didn't pretend that it was morally acceptable. Try telling your teenaged child today that sex outside a sanctioned, comitted relationship is immoral. Although all the major faiths teach this, your kid will laugh his or her head off. | |
| mindmesh 2002-10-27, 7:06 pm |
| What makes me mad is that People still put their faith in books such as the bible. Putting you faith in GOD is one thing but to believe that a book that was put together and edited by man is some how remeincent of the WORD OF GOD is NUTS!!! I'm not anti Religion but look at how many people are killed in the name of God: Crusades and 9/11 are prime examples. Now look at how quickly an argument broke out over a joke about religion. Here's a question:
Is it Ok to sleep with a hundred diffrent women as long as you marry them??
Or how about an Orgy with your hundred wives?
Although, you would think you would think this is evil or damnable. If you ask a guy that this happened to he would explain that he has died and gone to heaven. | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-27, 7:10 pm |
| Congratulations, you are free to make your own rules. As for killing in the name of religion, God as I understand him declared, "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword". People who kill in the name of religion are servents of Satan, not God. | |
| mindmesh 2002-10-27, 7:16 pm |
| I agree.. I never meant to imply that GOD condoned killing, I was just stating that They use his name to validate their actions as others use his name to validate they're ignorance and arrogance. | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-27, 7:19 pm |
| You are absolutely right. What counts is not whether people think it is OK to kill in the name of God, but how GOD feels about that. Self-delusion leads to self-destruction. | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-28, 6:12 am |
| quote:
They use his name to validate their actions as others use his name to validate they're ignorance and arrogance.
Yes, important words here. They use his name...
This is the crux of the matter. They use His name, but HE is not behind their deeds. They are not serving Him, nor do they know Him. They do not even understand their own books in which they use as their rules to dying for their god.
This brings up the next important words they're ignorance and arrogance.
This is why they get destroyed, ignorance of whom they are serving. We can see this in every falsehood out there, Hitler, Osama, Manson, Koresh, Jones, Moon, etc. Even children know the difference.
Faith should be put in God through His Son and not the Bible. The Bible should be understood by God's children for knowing Him, His Son and all the good things of God, and among many things, instructions in righteous living.
Just because people fight for who they call God, does not make that the true God. Just because evangelist speak for whom they call God, does not make that the true God. Truth must be handled correctly and we find that most have mingled truth with error and this ends in their shame along with destruction following.
What really makes a man stand out among the crowd is his fruit of righteousness. Look at Osama's nut cases and how their fruits led to crashing planes into buildings murdering innocent people along with themselves in the name of (their deceived perception) of God. What a bunch of total brain-washed clown-head lunatic imbecile loosers!
Just think, they think they have "virgins" waiting on the "other side."
Peace up | |
| beroueche 2002-10-28, 6:26 am |
| A no win discussion - Dr. Laura is right on this...the attempt to discredit her response by dragging the Old Testament Law into the age of grace to show possible flaws in her argument was a sad attempt to explain the scriptures using the natural mind. I would not attempt here to persuade you or others but for those who understand I will say this and leave it alone. You are dealing with Old Testament law, which for the most part has been done away with Calvary. Some laws and principles carry on past Calvary and unfortunately for some the truth concerning homosexuality is one. You may not believe this or like this but tough apples. If you really want to understand this then go to the apostle Paul. Consider what Paul says and you will get understanding in all things. I trust this will edify those who understand Paul and cause others to rightly divide the word of truth. | |
| Jerrellt 2002-10-28, 7:27 am |
| It's funny how people make fun of Christianity and not another religion.
Those who poke fun will have the last laugh.
I guess I'm the only one who may disagree with the "intelligent" majority on this message board, but I'm willing to believe on a God in whom a person cannot see than worship..oh...an MCSE Cert?
God is much bigger than any of us, yet you jest.
Y'all better what it! | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-28, 7:56 am |
| Look at John Muhammed and his sidekick. They tried to mock all that is decent by destroying precious human life. He will soon be mocked. | |
| wjdobson 2002-10-28, 8:27 am |
| "It has come to the point where anyone who supports anything good in the world is accused of being corny, or worse. How many people are left who will condemn the notion of sex outside of marriage? "
Nice Tech Ranger!
Now for those who really want to know:
Romans 10:4
Romans 13:8-10
Galatians 2:15,16
1 Corintians 6:9,10
The research will be good and once you do it you will have the answers to the questions from God's standpoint.
Ephesians 4:4 | |
| msandland 2002-10-28, 8:46 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by MistyRing
As far as I'm led to believe, no-one chooses to be gay, or to be straight for that matter. You either are or you're not. So if god exists and is so dead against it, why did he create homosexuals?
Hope you don't mind my trying to clear up a misuderstanding here. I can't speak for anyone else, but in my experience gay or straight can be a matter of choice. | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-28, 9:25 am |
| Maybe, I am a loner in this, but after reading many of these post, I don't think so. I stand for all that is good. Not too long ago, I was at a business and a group of IT people were standing in the lunch room chewing the fat, so-to-speak.
One of the individuals there was talking about his sexual escapades and illuding to the facts that he was some sort of sexual god (in his mind anyway). When in reality, he did not realize he was telling everyone of his inability to perform and that he was really nothing just trying to get attention.
There were several ladies present in the room. I knew several people were Christian there, and maybe other faiths as well. I immediately was checked in my heart about this individual's actions, and I noticed no one had the guts to stand for righteousness and do something.
They all just sat there with their heads turned from him while he was spewing out his vile. They were gazing off in the distance hoping he would change the conversation. Beholding this type of fear just amazes me.
Well, to make a long story short, I changed the conversation for him. I was selective with my words and told him and the entire room of what I stand for and what our conduct should be before others.
It was most interesting how quiet the entire group got. You could have heard a pin drop, but one thing is for sure, this immediately was put to a halt and we were able to carry on a decent productive conversation. Once fear is put down, productivity can happen.
It is ironic that people will stand for just about anything, but simply choose to not stand for good. Just what is wrong with people today? Is there not one with the backbone to stand up against the adversarial ones?
I remember some folks I spoke with some time back when Sept 911 occurred. They ranted on and on about how we should not do anything to Osama, etc., etc. Made me want to puke. I asked them straight up about it.
I said, if someone comes into your home and rapes your wife, cuts up your kids, you mean you would just stand there and let it happen? One of them said, "Yes." I said, then you will lose your wife and family, because you do not stand to fight against evil.
If you don't stand for righteousness, you will fall for anything.
Peace | |
| humblegod 2002-10-28, 12:11 pm |
| First of all, Examnotes is not the place to discuss this.
Everything can be answered through taking things in context.
Everything has an answer in the Bible. You have taken these things out of context for a joke.
I will pray for you, and that a peace comes to you about these things. My sole purpose and reason in life is not a joking matter, and whoever wrote this should think of others.
We all suffer from sinful thoughts and actions, but He has already forgiven the act before it is done. This does not condone the action, but the Bible offers suggestions of how to be more like Jesus, and stories of what happened to others who didn’t. It is a guide, and the inspired word of God.
Very brief responses that would take a lifetime to answer fully.
1. Burning cow (refer to first post)
Burnt sacrifices are no longer needed after Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross. Practice is no longer requested for sacrifice.
2. daughter into slavery (refer to first post)
This practice is no longer used. Context of dowry in America is totally different
3. Menstrul cycle no touchie(refer to first post)
The context was to have physical contact with her, as in physical relations.
4. "Slavery" (refer to first post)
- At that time people entered into a state of “slavery” to pay off debt. Owning another human being is not condoned. I suggest reading the New testament.
5. (refer to first post)
- Officially working on the Sabath is not condoned. It should be reserved for worship and football(jk)
6. (refer to first post)
- Food restrictions were lifted by Jesus’ supreme sacrifice of himself on the cross.
7. (refer to first post)
- Sight altered by sarcasm and satan’s thoughts is never a healthy way to worship.
8. Men trimming hair(refer to first post)
- Taken out of context and we don’t understand their time
9. (refer to first post)\
- Food restrictions were lifted by Jesus’ supreme sacrifice of himself on the cross.
10. Farming (refer to first post)
- These were words written to thoise who did not have irrigation, fertization, and farming techniques that we currently have. Any farmer knows that if you plant the wrong type of crop for too long, or out of order you can risk damaging the soil for future years and crops. Minerals and the such are taken from the soil. | |
| vleeflo 2002-10-28, 1:03 pm |
| I don't remember what book of the Bible it's in but the two greatest commandments that God gave us are:
Love God above all others.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Man ultimately should show tolerance toward man. Ultimate judgement is truly up to God. That's not to say that if man breaks laws they should not be punished. We must respect the laws of man. As Jesus died on the cross he offered a place in heaven to a criminal dying right next to him. This man who was being put to death for his crimes recognized that he deserved to be there for his crimes and that Jesus had committed no crime. I believe that it is through our own recognition of our own iniquity that we will truly be judged, Not judgement of others. Before you pull the splinter from someone else's eye pull the plank from your own. Humans sometimes get caught up in self righteous causes, and judgemental reasoning. We use religion to explain why I'm good and that person is bad. I believe our position as christians, muslims, buddhists, or whichever faith you happen to believe is to offer guidance to those who need it or ask for it and to let people make decisions for themselves. I have friends who use drugs, but I'm not going to score drugs for them and they are still my friends. I have friends and family that are gay, but, I'm not going to sleep with them and they are still welcome in my home and loved just the same. Intolerance is the key to creating despotic societies and oppression. If we would all focus on correcting our own imperfections the world would be a much better place. IMHO | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-28, 3:09 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by vleeflo
I don't remember what book of the Bible it's in but the two greatest commandments that God gave us are:
Love God above all others.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Man ultimately should show tolerance toward man. Ultimate judgement is truly up to God. That's not to say that if man breaks laws they should not be punished. We must respect the laws of man. As Jesus died on the cross he offered a place in heaven to a criminal dying right next to him. This man who was being put to death for his crimes recognized that he deserved to be there for his crimes and that Jesus had committed no crime. I believe that it is through our own recognition of our own iniquity that we will truly be judged, Not judgement of others. Before you pull the splinter from someone else's eye pull the plank from your own. Humans sometimes get caught up in self righteous causes, and judgemental reasoning. We use religion to explain why I'm good and that person is bad. I believe our position as christians, muslims, buddhists, or whichever faith you happen to believe is to offer guidance to those who need it or ask for it and to let people make decisions for themselves. I have friends who use drugs, but I'm not going to score drugs for them and they are still my friends. I have friends and family that are gay, but, I'm not going to sleep with them and they are still welcome in my home and loved just the same. Intolerance is the key to creating despotic societies and oppression. If we would all focus on correcting our own imperfections the world would be a much better place. IMHO
I agree 100%. | |
| xonkers 2002-10-28, 3:24 pm |
| Im truly impressed with the understanding some in here have of Law vs Grace!! I didnt expect that kind of discernment from a tech forum. While I agree entirely with the Grace advocates in here - it should be pointed out that Dr. Laura abides in the Law and doesnt accept atonement and Jesus fulfilment of the Law and the supiority of Grace over Law.
Still - Im really impressed with the high level of apologetics and the gentleness being used!!
Im not so profound and just have a lame addition to this topic ...
Anyone in here seen the movie Frailty? Its hardly biblical truth but it would fit in well to an evening of listening to Dr Laura and then reading this thread!
Very cool movie - warning - its pretty brutal in some scenes.
Even if you arent interested in any of this religious debate, frailty is one heck of a chilling Halloween video rental!! | |
| tburt9331 2002-10-28, 5:55 pm |
| I read the posts...no one is ever right and no one is ever wrong. What is right is whatever I decide it is for me and mine, at the time I decide it. Situational ethics, are the rule of the day. It is sad...we chase after the brass ring of life, whether it is a better job, a better life, a better whatever... when what we have is the best thing for us, even when we don't see it.
Rules and laws never made anyone Holy or righteous, only subservient. Only One person was free from those laws and rules, chose to be subservient for us, to free us from them, and He is still mocked and made fun of today, because we short sighted people want to be right. We want to be better than someone else, we want to lord it over them as to how we are so right and they are so wrong. Why?... Will being right make your life better? Will being right add one second to your existence? Will being right afford you any comfort after your short stay here within this mortal veil? No....no it will not. It will help you feel self-righteous and sanctimonious for a moment...yet you will still feel that hollow empriness inside, that God sized hole in your life that only one person can fill. You will deny it's existence, but we all know it is there. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened, be at peace. You can keep fighting it but in the end you will lose, and you will lose the most important thing you can lose...your immortal soul. You can be right, you can disagree, you can be contentious, you can be...?
A guy in the store the other day said "I don't believe in God."
Another person, over hearing him said "That's o.k., God believes in you." | |
| xonkers 2002-10-28, 6:06 pm |
| I feel like Im at a Bob George convention
http://www.realanswers.net
Hey Im not complaining at all!
I know a lot of people might be outraged that this thread is in a tech forum - but I think as long as its respectful (which is really has been so far wow!!) then its really interesting to see where and what spirituality means to techs.
I even posted a tech/singles thread and this is all stuff that is part of our lives and affects our careers and studies.
Good times. | |
| Tech Ranger 2002-10-28, 7:32 pm |
| A person living under grace does good things because of who he has become. A person living under the law does good things to earn his way to grace. | |
| MistyRing 2002-10-29, 2:51 am |
| quote:
Hope you don't mind my trying to clear up a misuderstanding here. I can't speak for anyone else, but in my experience gay or straight can be a matter of choice.
I was at school with a kid who tried to commit suicide because he couldn't come to terms with his sexuality or what he believed his parents attitude would be if he told them.
I don't think he chose to be gay. | |
| enforcer 2002-10-29, 3:25 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tech Ranger
A person living under grace does good things because of who he has become. A person living under the law does good things to earn his way to grace.
a person living under Grace should get up and get out to work and let her get on with her own thing.
a person living unedr the law, needs to move to get him/herself onto the bottom rung of the property ladder | |
| msandland 2002-10-29, 3:48 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by MistyRing
I was at school with a kid who tried to commit suicide because he couldn't come to terms with his sexuality or what he believed his parents attitude would be if he told them.
I don't think he chose to be gay.
Thanks for your reply.
Like I said, I can't speak for anyone else - just my own experience.
I do feel for your schoolmate - it takes a great deal of despararation and pain to bring someone to such extreme measures.
There was a time when I, too, felt I had no choices, and I came pretty close to the edge. I'm just thankful that I found the way out that worked for me. | |
| MistyRing 2002-10-29, 4:42 am |
| Well from what I remember the guy's parents held the same kind of intolerant "christian" views as so enthusiastically endorsed by some of the other people on this forum. Perhaps worth thinking about the consequences sometimes. | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-29, 7:02 am |
| quote:
Well from what I remember the guy's parents held the same kind of intolerant "christian" views as so enthusiastically endorsed by some of the other people on this forum.
Maybe it wasn't really an intolerant Christian view from the his parents. Consider the parents might have not had the greatest tact in their delivery, but certainly might have wanted the child saved from future pain in life.
The true Christian view is not intolerant of truth, and it will not negate justice and truth in love for the sake of someone's feelings. It makes choice based on wisdom and not outward expression. Feelings can come and go, but truth will set you free.
This might be where many miss the issue. This is the place where many will lie to someone thinking they are doing the right thing, when all along they are hurting the person in ways unimaginable.
Some will withhold truth in order to "protect" someone's feelings, when all the while they are destroying the lives of others because of this ignorance. This is great danger and should be avoided at all cost. It is hard at times to speak truth to those that have eyes of tears.
You see, if the truth is spoken then freedom comes, if not then bondage remains and the receipient is still carrying the damage without much hope.
There are many questions as to whether one is "born gay" or not. Just how can somebody be born gay? An infant doesn't know sexual orientation in the womb, does it?
Isn't much of this up to the parents of the infant as to proper training and growth with the child? After all, who tells a young kid he might be gay? Who tells him he should use his male sex organs to do things that are unnatural to the design of his very being?
Really, just where does this info come from? If one is male and born with male sexual organs, then what is he? Does his orientation change because he has questions about himself? Should there be a struggle with sexual orientation for such a one?
Now, although there are some born with both sets of sex organs, this is quite a rarity, but does happen. There is a small handfull that are born with both sets of organs and then it becomes a problem as to what is going on in the body of the individual and a choice has to be made as to what to do. Some have to have operations just to have a normal life and function properly.
As far as the normal person this issue has much to do with what the parents do for the youth and who talks to the youth as they are growing up in society. I have known individuals in school that were told they had problems and they grew to question their sexual orientation. This was really a sad situation and caused them much grief throughout life.
Death and life are contained in a very tiny member that sets the course of nature on fire --- the tongue. The entire matter comes from the power of corruptive words and what they bring the individual's spirit to bear as fruit in their life.
I do not weap for the one that is gay nearly as much as I weap for the one who falsely mislead him and encourages him to continue upon that path of destruction.
Peace | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-29, 7:10 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Luchnia
There are many questions as to whether one is "born gay" or not. Just how can somebody be born gay? An infant doesn't know sexual orientation in the womb, does it?
Isn't much of this up to the parents of the infant as to proper training and growth with the child? After all, who tells a young kid he might be gay? Who tells him he should use his male sex organs to do things that are unnatural to the design of his very being?
Really, just where does this info come from? If one is male and born with male sexual organs, then what is he? Does his orientation change because he has questions about himself? Should there be a struggle with sexual orientation for such a one?
From what I understand, a person usually knows that they are gay long before anyone else does. If they really feel attracted to members of the same sex but give in to pressures to "be straight" just because they feel that they will no longer be accepted by others, they end up living a lie in order to keep the peace. If truth is of any importance, then they have to admit what it is they really feel rather than acquiescing to what others think they must feel. There is a struggle for many gays, and the struggle is not one that most would willingly choose knwoing what grief it would cause them.
Infants do not know of sexual feelings as adults, but who can tell what causes someone to feel a natural inclination towards members of the same sex? And most of all, who are you to tell us how someone else should feel? This issue seems to be a personal one. I fail to see how it is everyone else's business. It also seems a silly issue for so many to dwell upon. A substantial proportion of the world is starving, and live in war-torn countries. Aren't there more important issues to be dealt with than whom one chooses to share affection with? | |
| 2lazybutsmart 2002-10-29, 7:18 am |
| Certainly | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-29, 8:27 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Linux Guy
And most of all, who are you to tell us how someone else should feel? This issue seems to be a personal one. I fail to see how it is everyone else's business. It also seems a silly issue for so many to dwell upon.
To answer your first question as to who I am, I am somebody that stands and represents morality and righteousness and I believe it is obligatory for all men to do so. I care for the fate of the souls of people and their eternal destiny. If that is a crime as a representative of such, then I accept the charge if you want to place it upon me.
Although a side note, I must admit from most of your past post, I don't know why you feel the need to reprimand me for what I stated in my post. If that was not your intent, then I do apologize, please do forgive me.
If this is a personal issue then why are so many affected by it? Since when did homosexuality become a personal issue? If it is personal why are you typing about it in a public forum, as are many of us? Corruption affects everyone, privately and publicly. I would be curious to know if there are statistics that prove homosexuality has not affected most people today, in some way, shape, or form. If that could be produced, I would like to see it for my studies.
Also, another thing of interest that I wonder about. If this is a personal issue because of the way one feels about his homosexuality, then would that mean that if I feel like killing someone I should admit it to myself, and then go out and act upon it?
In my heart, I don't see this as a silly issue. This issue is of major importance. It carries greater danger than thousands of wars. It is a life destoyer guised through deception of man's constition. This diametrically opposes man's design (whether you believe in a creator, or not, should not change this).
I will sacrifice a man's feelings for the sake of his life, anyday. Call me old-fashioned, but I would rather save you from destruction than make you feel good anyday. Feelings come and go, but life is important.
My feelings would tell me not to jump in front of a car to save you from on-coming traffic, but to heck with my feelings, it is something I must do regardless of how I feel about it.
I certainly do not mean to offend you by this, but this is the type of life I lead and believe in my heart it is the correct attitude for the sake of all mankind.
Peace | |
| 2lazybutsmart 2002-10-29, 8:54 am |
| well said Luchnia. | |
| Teck Shark 2002-10-29, 9:19 am |
| Hey Enforcer,
I bet when you originally posted this thread you didn't expect a huge, and intense debate. | |
| MistyRing 2002-10-29, 10:02 am |
| quote:
Also, another thing of interest that I wonder about. If this is a personal issue because of the way one feels about his homosexuality, then would that mean that if I feel like killing someone I should admit it to myself, and then go out and act upon it?
The big difference is gay people are not doing anyone else any harm. You going out and killing someone is, and despite what you say mankind is not about to die out because a minority of people are gay. I don't see you criticising straight couples who choose not to have children. | |
| 2lazybutsmart 2002-10-29, 10:25 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by MistyRing
The big difference is gay people are not doing anyone else any harm. You going out and killing someone is
And the BIG mistake you made there, MistyRing, is to say that gays are not doing anyone else any harm. When Gays live in a society, say my country or the U.S., and have such rights as put down in both constitutions, you risk the spreading of a disease called "homosexuality". When a disease starts, it's small and completely ignorable, but when it spreads and affects the whole body, it's big and intolerrable.
In fact homosexuality can be traced back millions of year ago to a small group of people living under the Prophethood of Lot cousin of Abraham. And they were completely destroyed. What remained of them, the IDEA. That's all!!!. And that's what we have today in our modern society, a big chunk of people claiming homosexualisim can be part of the persons personal life.
Going out and killing someone is a very bad act. But homosexualisim is a corruption to the society. Just look at what's happening to our teenage boys. He goes off and admires another boy. What is the girl gonna do, go off and kick in with another girl. Futile and Barren, both for the progress of the society, and the livelihood of human beings.
There is nothing personal about what i said. Just generally for the masses.
peace | |
| MistyRing 2002-10-29, 10:52 am |
| The disease, as you put it, isn't spreading it's just become more visible. You are right in that homosexuality can be traced back along way, and per capita there are probably no more now than there were 100 or a 1000 years ago. They are just less likely to hide themselves away in todays open society. | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-29, 10:55 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Luchnia
To answer your first question as to who I am, I am somebody that stands and represents morality and righteousness and I believe it is obligatory for all men to do so. I care for the fate of the souls of people and their eternal destiny. If that is a crime as a representative of such, then I accept the charge if you want to place it upon me.
Although a side note, I must admit from most of your past post, I don't know why you feel the need to reprimand me for what I stated in my post. If that was not your intent, then I do apologize, please do forgive me.
If this is a personal issue then why are so many affected by it? Since when did homosexuality become a personal issue? If it is personal why are you typing about it in a public forum, as are many of us? Corruption affects everyone, privately and publicly. I would be curious to know if there are statistics that prove homosexuality has not affected most people today, in some way, shape, or form. If that could be produced, I would like to see it for my studies.
Also, another thing of interest that I wonder about. If this is a personal issue because of the way one feels about his homosexuality, then would that mean that if I feel like killing someone I should admit it to myself, and then go out and act upon it?
In my heart, I don't see this as a silly issue. This issue is of major importance. It carries greater danger than thousands of wars. It is a life destoyer guised through deception of man's constition. This diametrically opposes man's design (whether you believe in a creator, or not, should not change this).
I will sacrifice a man's feelings for the sake of his life, anyday. Call me old-fashioned, but I would rather save you from destruction than make you feel good anyday. Feelings come and go, but life is important.
My feelings would tell me not to jump in front of a car to save you from on-coming traffic, but to heck with my feelings, it is something I must do regardless of how I feel about it.
I certainly do not mean to offend you by this, but this is the type of life I lead and believe in my heart it is the correct attitude for the sake of all mankind.
Peace
I just find it offensive that people always are trying to tell others how to live their lives when it doesnt affect them. And as for you saying that this issue is more critical than thousands of wars tells me all that I need to know. Killing is alright, but love in certain forms is not, right? There are others who beleived that there way was correct for all makind as well, and did their best to try to force others to see things their way. We called them Nazis. Live your life as you see fit, but I don't see where you should have any say over how others do so as long as it does not directly affect you. I am sure that there are Amish people who beleive we are all wicked for using machines. Would they be right for trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us for "our own good"? Killing is an act that takes place when one person forces his/her will on another, homosexuality is a consensual act.
Likewise, I would like to see unbiased statistics clearly showing what harm homosexuality has ever done to society. I doubt that you can provide them any more than I can. These things are not easily measured as much as simple physical quanities can. And I discuss personal things in public forums because there are those who would force me to do whatever they see fit, taking away my liberty. Once you stick your noce into someone else's business, you take what is private and make it public.
I hear the Hindus are trying to make eating meat illegal for everyone's own good. | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-29, 10:56 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by MistyRing
The disease, as you put it, isn't spreading it's just become more visible. You are right in that homosexuality can be traced back along way, and per capita there are probably no more now than there were 100 or a 1000 years ago. They are just less likely to hide themselves away in todays open society.
I agree. Ever read any Greek history? Apparently it was not condemned in ancient Greece and noone seems to have been any the worse for it. | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-29, 11:09 am |
| Mr. Linux Guy, thank you for your statement, "I just find it offensive that people always are trying to tell others how to live their lives when it doesnt affect them."
I agree with you. It is offensive when people are always telling others how to live their lives when it doesn't affect them. On that we agree.
In my heart, this is an issue that affects me, because I have seen first hand what this corruptable lifestyle does to people and those around them. That is why I post about it.
As for murder, I don't condone any sort of evil. I guess, sometimes in the forums it is a tad hard to understand what our thoughts are because typing post lacks inflection and expression, thus we can only see what our heads tell us is the implied thought through the typed text.
I just want to note, whether we disagree or not, I respect your view and you as a person and I hope that is reflected in my post.
Peace | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-29, 11:13 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Luchnia
Mr. Linux Guy, thank you for your statement, "I just find it offensive that people always are trying to tell others how to live their lives when it doesnt affect them."
I agree with you. It is offensive when people are always telling others how to live their lives when it doesn't affect them. On that we agree.
In my heart, this is an issue that affects me, because I have seen first hand what this corruptable lifestyle does to people and those around them. That is why I post about it.
As for murder, I don't condone any sort of evil. I guess, sometimes in the forums it is a tad hard to understand what our thoughts are because typing post lacks inflection and expression, thus we can only see what our heads tell us is the implied thought through the typed text.
I just want to note, whether we disagree or not, I respect your view and you as a person and I hope that is reflected in my post.
Peace
I didn't mean any disrespect. However I know a number of people who live this "corruptable lifestyle", and it seems the main problem they have is intolerance of others. I think if they would try to enforce the same control over others that others try to exercise over them, the fit would hit the shan, though. | |
| mmgm76 2002-10-29, 12:43 pm |
| Original Quotes:
[I agree. Ever read any Greek history? Apparently it was not condemned in ancient Greece and noone seems to have been any the worse for it.]
[I just find it offensive that people always are trying to tell others how to live their lives when it doesnt affect them....Killing is an act that takes place when one person forces his/her will on another, homosexuality is a consensual act....Likewise, I would like to see unbiased statistics clearly showing what harm homosexuality has ever done to society. I doubt that you can provide them any more than I can. These things are not easily measured as much as simple physical quanities can. ]
Hmm...where to start. Remember Greece...yes, I know the country still exists in name, but there is one historical fact that comes to mind: Rome enveloped Greece and attempted to envelope her culture, especially after King Philip V lost to Roman forces at Kynoskephalai in 197BC. I'd say the Roman Empire did a great job of incorporating the "free society" mindset owned by the Grecians...tremendous leaders such as Gaius (Caligula)come to mind here.
So was the glory of Rome destroyed simply by her hedonistic ways? May not be so easy to pinpoint, but more importantly, America can relate to ancient rome in many ways: we appear to be the military might of the world; we appear to be one of the most civilized and ornate cultures in the world; we are the greatest propagator of culture to the world, I.E. music, fashion, pornography, etc. We seem to rapidly approach (and in some cases surpass) the same hedonistic lifestlye that Rome did, where "whatever feels great to me should be legal and right", just like Rome did. The list is long, but most importantly, will we experience a fall as great as Rome did? Only time will tell. (P.S. please don't give the response that Rome crashed because she was militarily overextended...there's just too much evidence to support her cultural collapse being at the root of her political collapse.)
As for the killing/homosexual quote, last time I looked, the decision to kill was not compulsory, and tended to be consensual as well. If we were to take that argument down the slippery slope, then I could say that the only person that kills compulsively is the one who is "not in his/her right mind", and thus homosexuals must not be in their "right mind." Hardly, and I wouldn't place such an ignorant misnomer on those that practice homosexuality.
The Nazi adage....wow, last time I looked, I don't remember attempting to round up millions of people that didn't believe in my point of view, and attempting to exterminate them from the earth. Although Dr.Laura's Old Testament theology would have allowed for this, my New Testament understanding is diametrically opposite (even though I know that Old Testament-adhering folks also recognize that they are not to kill those in this situation.)
Regardless, let's answer the "I just find it offensive that people always are trying to tell others how to live their lives when it doesnt affect them" quote, in addition to the "These things are not easily measured as much as simple physical quanities can" quotes.
Being a parent of 3, with one of them being a 16 year old girl, I think I can take a nice whack at this one. I find no problem in verbally voicing my opinion when I can substantiate the fact that it DOES affect society. When I was a kid, and when I went to go to a friends' house to play, we would usually engage in playing with Tonka Trucks, Lincoln logs or Tinker Toys. When I was 10, the first basic cable system came into play in our area, a system known as "ON TV", and I was first introduced to myriad movies that were well beyond my developmental stage, especially with the advent of late-night pornography at my 10-year old fingertips(my parents were your normal, somewhat-progressive parents that didn't seem to think that these things had any negative effects on me.) In the 90's, we saw unprecedented access opened up to morally corruptive agents, unfortunately through the same vehicle that provides many of our jobs, the Internet. In 2002, every 3rd e-mail that I receive either says "barely legal teen," add 1-3 inches to your xxxx", etc. Also, there seems to sure be an unprecedented interest in increasing your sexual vitality, especially with the onslaught of Viagra knockoff advertisements on TV, e-mail, etc. So where does this lead? As mentioned, when I was a kid, we went to someone's house to visit and we simply played with cars, trucks, etc. The teens in our youth group let us know that societal norm now is to still get together to go out and do things, but that often some form of intercourse was involved on a very casual basis. Shocking as it may sound, homosexual acts between them was normal as well. More importantly, the absolute acceptance of homosexuality in the teen groups has increased 100-fold since I was in high school. Problem? Not that homosexuals are more comfortable coming out of the closet, but that more kids that may be "on the fence" and may be feeling slight homosexual feelings during puberty may easily become involved in actions that they will regret later. In working with youth, many of them have come out and said that they tremendously regret engaging in these acts, when they truly ended up being heterosexual in orientation.....a tremendous amount of confusion in a confusing period of their lives that they are permanently "scarred" by. Unfortunately, I've even been affected by this personally. My wife and I are two of the most cautious parents on this planet, especially in light of the fact that we hardly even allow our children to spend the night in another household, including family. This may sound pretty bizarre, but when did we pull crap as kids or when did we get into things we had no business getting into? Regardless, we entrusted a situation with our 10-year old daughter at the time to spend the night with her friend and her friend's older sister who we considered to maintain decent moral character. Turns out 6 years later that we find out that the older sister, although maintaining impeccable credentials, was experiencing lesbian feelings for other girls at the time(she is now completely heterosexual and not in denial of her homosexual feelings)but took it upon herself to act out her homosexual thoughts on my 10 year old. The failure was ours as parents in placing trust in anything outside our home, but this girl in particular had obviously been exposed to some stuff at home that helped her along the path that she had taken. Regardless of her orientation now, she has affected our daughter with her homosexual desires, most likely for the rest of her life. Fringe unrealistic case....I wish it was, but it's all too common. Was she born this way? Hardly. She was a by-product of a home absent of a father, and a home and society conducive to this sort of lifestyle.
A final point that I am trying to make here is that the further society slides in terms of almost being a proponent of such activities, the greater the chasm between those of us that hold to Biblical ethics and those that hold to moral relativism becomes. To deny that these lifestyles do not have an affect on society is to deny that the sky is blue.
It still amazes me that when someone is a proponent of lifestyles and choices that are contrary to Biblical Ethics, it is such a societal norm that they are almost applauded. If someone comes out and tries to be a proponent of morality, they are raked across the coals and equated to such maniac's as Hitler.....what has this world come to in the last 100 years or so? | |
| Mr. Linux Guy 2002-10-29, 12:53 pm |
| I am afraid that approving of non-biblical lifestyles for me does not equate to immorality. As I stated before, there are things that god approves of in the Bible that are absolutely detestable to me. The "morality" you speak of means, according to the Bible, believing that the people of one nation are better than another, believing that killing innocents in the name of god is OK, and that it is "good for a man to not touch a woman". I am afraid that although some of the Bible is acceptable to me, there are vast areas of it that I would consider more harmful than your typical R-rated movie.
And I am not so sure that getting pornographic emails all the time means that there is an unprecedented interest in interest in sexual things, but that the media is making use oif methods of propagating it that were not available before. Any use of informtaion technolgoy will cause the exposure of people to things that they may have never considered before, but that does not mean that himan nature or interest has changed, but access to the forbidden topics is made more easily available.
Your daughter's friends may have merely awoken a latent desire in your child that was always there rather than "infecting her" with homosexuality. I have had homosexual friends for quite some time, but to be honest, find the notion of myself engaging in sex with another man to be quite off-putting. If your arguments on that score were valid, I would be a raving gay by now, which is not the cae. I simply regard them as human beings and judge them by their more than their sexual orientation. | |
| Luchnia 2002-10-29, 1:16 pm |
| At what point do we become so desensitized to evil that we call evil good, and good evil? What is the end of this type of choice?
Could it be possible that we come to a point that we justify deeds of the wicked, that we will have no conscience sense of right or wrong left in us?
Are we, in this country, so desensitized that we are coming to the point that we can just turn our shoulders and say, go ahead, men, burn in your hearts with lust toward one another, and do that thing which is unnatural for you, for that is good and acceptable to us.
If there is no moral fibre left in us then we are left to the wolves of corruption and we will pay the price. | |
| mmgm76 2002-10-29, 1:16 pm |
| original quote:
[I am afraid that approving of non-biblical lifestyles for me does not equate to immorality. As I stated before, there are things that god approves of in the Bible that are absolutely detestable to me. The "morality" you speak of means, according to the Bible, believing that the people of one nation are better than another, believing that killing innocents in the name of god is OK, and that it is "good for a man to not touch a woman". I am afraid that although some of the Bible is acceptable to me, there are vast areas of it that I would consider more harmful than your typical R-rated movie.
And I am not so sure that getting pornographic emails all the time means that there is an unprecedented interest in interest in sexual things, but that the media is making use oif methods of propagating it that were not available before. Any use of informtaion technolgoy will cause the exposure of people to things that they may have never considered before, but that does not mean that himan nature or interest has changed, but access to the forbidden topics is made more easily available.
Your daughter's friends may have merely awoken a latent desire in your child that was always there rather than "infecting her" with homosexuality. I have had homosexual friends for quite some time, but to be honest, find the notion of myself engaging in sex with another man to be quite off-putting. If your arguments on that score were valid, I would be a raving gay by now, which is not the cae. I simply regard them as human beings and judge them by their more than their sexual orientation.]
I appreciate your opinion Mr. Linux guy, although obviously the direction of my post may have been misleading. My daughter is not struggling with homosexual feelings(at least we hope she's not) that we're aware of. The crime here was that my daughter was molested repeatedly as an innocent 10-year-old by someone who was acting out their homosexual feelings on an available victim. Worse yet, she's not a homosexual either....just had been exposed to such things by her friends and environment, and decided to experiment using my daughter in the act.
As far as the technology/e-mail thing, of course the presence of e-mails does not denote an unprecedented rise in things sexual, but to deny that our society is collectively less corrupt morally than it was even as recent as 30 years ago, and to deny that these technological advances haven't propagated and assisted said advances would be ludicrous, and ostrich-like at best. See, this is the difficulty in a discussion with someone entrenched in moral relativism: there is no moral standard, and nothing is wrong with the exception of someone trying to denote what is "wrong". Simple adherence to statistics would substantiate this: crime statistics, drug use statistics, serial killings, arrests for prostitution, pedophilia, alcoholism, etc. Does the technology assist these numbers? Of course. Without the technology, would so many be involved in such things? Most likely not. Regardless, the stats themselves are constant, and undeniable. We are undeniably in a downward spiral morally, and if history holds true, we will see a continuity of this trend. I personally find it detestable at best, and it angers me that legally-established moral relativism is allowed to propagate to the degree that we can't even protect our own children from its influence. Whoops, let me retract there, the act that occurred with my own daughter probably shouldn't be considered wrong at all, but should be viewed as a beautiful expression of love between two consenting parties, and what a joy that such homosexual feelings could be expressed in this utopian society where this is a great thing......wow. | |
| azimuth40 2002-10-29, 2:05 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by Luchnia
At what point do we become so desensitized to evil that we call evil good, and good evil? What is the end of this type of choice?
18 years ago according to | | |