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What would you do??
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| John Bakker 2002-01-20, 8:44 am |
| I am trying to figure something out:
There is an ethical, moral way of doing things, in life in general and in your goals to get a certificate also.
Now it is a fact that the interpretation of these things is different to everybody.
I have read the ping post and i only want a strait answer:
Question:
(1) If you could get a braindump, all real exam questions whith the good answers included, would you use it?
(2) If you could get a hand on some testexam program with register key and it would fit your examgoal would you use it? | |
| Paisleyskye 2002-01-20, 10:29 am |
| 1) If you could get a braindump, all real exam questions whith the good answers included, would you use it?
No. Definitely not. I would never want to pass an exam under those circumstances - there would be no victory in it because using it would be cheating.
If you could get a hand on some testexam program with register key and it would fit your examgoal would you use it?
No. Definitely not. I'm not into Software Piracy. | |
| ccieToBe 2002-01-20, 10:51 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by John Bakker
I am trying to figure something out:
There is an ethical, moral way of doing things, in life in general and in your goals to get a certificate also.
Now it is a fact that the interpretation of these things is different to everybody.
I have read the ping post and i only want a strait answer:
Question:
(1) If you could get a braindump, all real exam questions whith the good answers included, would you use it?
(2) If you could get a hand on some testexam program with register key and it would fit your examgoal would you use it?
No and no. | |
|
| I agree with Paisleyskye. How would this benefit you ? Sure it looks nice having all those letters behind your name but consider this:
If you go on an interview based on the passing of an exam and not knowledge/experience, the interviewer will quickly pick up on your lack of knowledge. How does this reflect on you? The interviewer in his/her mind considers you a fraud, a cheat. Of course they are not going to hire you or place you.
Given sometimes that IT is a small world, people know each other and your interview story gets passed around - guess what happens on the next interview ?
Some would argue that if are not a good test taker but you have years of experience well......
Let your conscience be your guide.
I still would not do it. The benefits of hard study coupled with knowledge/experience/certs pays off in the end.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
ea | |
| PremaSharma 2002-01-20, 11:22 am |
| No and no. On my last interview, I was asked some rather extensive questions about my area of expertise. Now if I had cheated my way through some tests desgined to quizz me on how much I knew, I would only have been hurting myself and wasting the time of my potential employers. Anyone can pass a test by "braindumping" their way through it. But will this actually be of any real benefit to anyone? I don't think so. The only possible exception would be I suppose for those people who need to get certified to keep their jobs or if they are required to have a certain certification even if it doesn't directly relate to their jobs. But integrity and honesty DO count for things in the workplace. If your employer comes to know that you lied to get a job, or fudged your claims about your knowledge, this will not reflect good on you. | |
| PotatoHead 2002-01-20, 12:39 pm |
| No and No, I wanna learn, not cheat. Nuff said | |
| John Bakker 2002-01-20, 1:39 pm |
| something told me to expect answers like these....
Now in a regular post i see questions like:
Failed xxx exam, next week i will go again but i have got this questions yyy: does anyone have a suggestion for the answer..
is this a braindump, or could it be the base of a braindump.?
what exactly is a braindump | |
| Paisleyskye 2002-01-20, 1:45 pm |
| A braindump is questions and answers from the actual exams that someone posts on the Internet after writing an exam. They are essentially dumping their brains of information. | |
| Sh0tgun 2002-01-20, 2:33 pm |
| I would have to be honest with myself on this one and say... no to the first.
Maybe you think I am just lying, since only a seemingly foolish person would waltz into this thread and post that s/he desires to cheat. But...
I definitely like to learn the test objectives, as all of you before me have said. In fact I've had experience with the objectives of every exam I've taken. I'm not saying I was an expert on the topics, but I had worked with them. I've also gone through a class for every exam (I'll break this streak when I pass i-Net+ on Thursday, all through self-study).
So, after I'm done with my study and think I understand everything, does that mean I wouldn't want to see the answers? NO! In fact I would be sorely tempted to do that. But I've had the opportunity before, and I didn't take it:
I tested for Network+ on a Saturday because I didn't want to take time off from work. The testing center was nearly deserted. Really the only one present during my test was a lady there to oversee the test center in an outer room equipped with CCTV monitors. I entered that outer observation room with my Net+ Exam Cram, and 3x5 cards that I had written pertinent, condensed info onto. I had cards on topics like the TCP/IP utils (NBTSTAT, etc.), their usage, and the command line switches you can use with them (-r vs. -R, -a vs. -A). These went into a drawer in a desk in the outer room, along with my cell phone. I went in and started testing.
I had to go to the bathroom in a bad way during my test. Yeah, really, the last thing you want. I was seriously ill to my stomach. I still can't be sure what caused that. But I had plenty of time on the timer, so I left my station to check out with the test proctor to use the bathroom. To my dismay she was not in the outer room at the time. I was torn... leaving w/o informing her could be bad -- you're supposed to check out! -- but not getting to a bathroom quickly would also have consequences, if you get my drift.
So, afraid I was blowing $190 because I would break the rules, I hit the men's room. When I came back, the lady had returned and was truly surprised to see me enter (I guess she hadn't checked on me via the cameras and noticed my absence). Well, I had nothing to worry about, because she was understanding and didn't care. Just let me back in and that was it. I reviewed my answers, ended the exam, passed and left.
The point is that I was torn by another decision while I stood in that empty outer room... My study materials were in that drawer. My first seven questions had all been on the TCP/IP utils. I was not sure of myself, and I wanted to double-check my answers. All I had to do was open that drawer and peek! The absolute, true as God, accurate answers were in there on a card. But I didn't open it. I didn't look. Once I made up my mind I didn't really consider it a big deal, except for that fact that the proctor might realize my opportunity and believe I had cheated.
I didn't think about it for a long time. But when I did reflect on it, I'm very happy I chose to do what I did. I can be wholly happy with my Network+ pass now. I'm not sure what kind of black mark on my conscience looking at those cards would have had, but it wouldn't be good. I'm thankful I didn't give in.
It sets a good precident if I ever get put through that again. I'd rather fail honestly than pass with deceit.
Also, I'm staying away from Mexican food  Hi-oh! C'mon, it's me! You knew I also had to make a joke in my post!  | |
| John Bakker 2002-01-21, 1:15 am |
| Hey great, temptations are the worst but what about the second quest?
I think to prepare for an exam you need to know the objectives and the style of the questions to expect.
So in mind of the definition of a braindumpquote:
A braindump is questions and answers from the actual exams that someone posts on the Internet after writing an exam. They are essentially dumping their brains of information.
if you alter the original text and leave the supposed answers blank, you don't have a "braindump" but you can get an real overvieuw of the things to expect on an exam. Is this cheating then?
If it is, then probably whole examnotes or any other board could be called "one big braindump" cus we all share our information and help each other on questions...
Informe me about your opinion on this..
The philosophy exam was a piece of cake -- which was a bit of a surprise, actually, because I was expecting some questions on a sheet of paper. | |
| huntert 2002-01-21, 1:23 am |
| Why cheat yourself in this business, you are only going to be laughed at and fired.
Our market is so saturated do to bad techs and the people that destroy the true meaning of certification.
It's ok , let the cheaters keep on passing exams without any clue and destroying themselves. They are gonna find a new division of labor soon. | |
| John Bakker 2002-01-21, 3:36 am |
| I don't advice to cheat or to use a braindump as told in the definition.
But for some exams for example A+ N+ or INET+ is is easy to cheat if you have a good memory.
When your into programming it's a different thing. In java, corba, xml, idl you can't learn question-answer values, you just need to understand what your reading.
I'm trying to deal with the fact that when a dump or braindump is mentioned everybody runs to nail it down because it is wrong.
If there is a way to get an idea of the sphere of the exam, like how questions are asked, then that is normal. In school you also practice for exam with questions.
So if i had a created dump like the definition and changed variables and text and also give no answers, [suppose i knew them all] and i would call it, lets say transfer would anybody still stand up?
and i still agree with the no cheating thing | |
| exambuster 2002-01-21, 3:51 am |
| IMHO
i think it is up to the certification vendor (microsoft, cisco etc) to make sure that their certification would be valid to measure the skill of the person.
if a person took an exam and dump the questions, i think it is the responsibility of the vendor to make sure, that the question would be blocked (perhaps?) from appearing for let's say a week or so...
i know there is a moral issue for us exam takers, but i think the vendor have to take more responsibility since they have the obligation (after all, we paid for the exam right ?) | |
| peterd 2002-01-21, 3:52 am |
| Hi,
yes and yes.
The exams are pretty meaningless. Some people can do the job and still fail the exam, others can read a book once and pass. Who's the expert?
Using a braindump doesn't mean you're going to fail at an interview or at your job. that will only happen if you use nothing but the braindump.
Assuming I could do the job then I'd have no hesitation in ensuring a pass by using a braindump, assuming I could afford to buy it.
And you do realise that you're only going to see a small proportion of the actual exam questions that way, don't you?
As for ripping off the software, that's someone elses problem. If I need something to help me provide for my family and I can't afford it, then do I let my family starve?
Companies can afford to do without a few dollars from me...
my family come first!
Regards
Peter | |
| StewartH 2002-01-21, 4:35 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by peterd
Hi,
As for ripping off the software, that's someone elses problem. If I need something to help me provide for my family and I can't afford it, then do I let my family starve?
Companies can afford to do without a few dollars from me...
my family come first!
Regards
Peter
Of course if you take that arguement to it's logical conclusion then you would have no problem shoplifting in supermarkets or robbing banks. After all they can afford it.... right??? | |
| peterd 2002-01-21, 6:11 am |
| Hi StewartH,
of course. It all depends on circumstances.
Maybe not robbing a bank, there are easier ways of taking money.
But if I had four hungry children at home and no money then I'd have very little choice in how I provided for them.
Given a particular set of 'what ifs' then I'd have no hesitation in killing someone if that's what it would take.
Are you different?
Honestly?
Please don't post saying you have no children so it doesn't apply...
for this discussion, assume you have got four children at home, no job, you're dole money's been cut off. Do you just walk out and leave them or do you fight to the death, do whatever is required, so that your family survives?
regards
Peter | |
|
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| StewartH 2002-01-21, 8:15 am |
| I certainly wouldn't kill anyone! Beyond that I take your point, but society is (supposedly) geared up so that these things shouldn't happen.
What you said originally was "If I need something to help me provide for my family and I can't afford it, then do I let my family starve?"
Now, is your family really likely to starve because you couldn't afford some piece of software or other? I suspect not.
The real reason (I'm guessing) is, that like most of us, you think "hmmm, I can duplicate this Win 2K CD really easily and no-one's ever going to know..... A few quid saved for sopmething else".
Am I right? | |
| bearing 2002-01-21, 9:09 am |
| Great analogy Frank, and to be honest with you, I'd like to say I'd go with number 2 also, BUT it's easy to say that sitting here contributing to this forum, what I would do in the exam room with no one around is something I couldn't answer, after all I'm only human. Maybe I would hand it over, maybe I would copy it completely, or maybe I would continue with the test and use it when I was unsure of an answer.Only if the situation arose could I truthfully answer your question.
The only way to get around this is to set standard style written exams, in this way your use of the knowledge you have gained can be tested, and the use of braindumps would become pointless. This would probably raise the standards of the certs and cut out those people who are just jumping onto the IT train. | |
| peterd 2002-01-21, 10:06 am |
| Hi Guys,
StewartH:
the family may starve if I lose my job and can't get another due to lacking a piece of paper...
As for copying software, no. I certainly don't use Windows 2000, I'm on Windows 95 and sticking with it because I know it works.
I have Win 95, Win NT and SQL 6.5, all licenced as I stole them from a company that owed me money when they went bust. Office 97 and VB5 are the other major systems that I use and I bought those.
I don't play games other than Freecell, so there's no incentive to copy anything.
wbafrank: depends if Toby learnt the stuff and can do the job. Chances are he'd be up to a reasonable standard already and the boss is paying for the exam to get another qualified guy on the books.
Toby is struggling because this particular exam is slightly stiffer than normal and he'd normally expect to pass it first time. In that case there's no harm done anywhere in using the answers that he found, other than it costs his boss a bit of extra salary sooner.
It's in Toby's (and his family's) interests to use the paper, assuming there's no camera in the room of course!
In which case I'd have no hesitation in using the answers given.
On a further note, I used to frequent a forum on VB5 and the moderator mentioned someone she worked with who was bloody useless at the job, coudn't program to save their lives but still managed to pass the MS VB exam.
These exams are the best system we currently have of defining 'standards' but they're not that good really.
And after all of that, no matter what sort of passing score we get, we can all have good and bad days at work...
Regards
Peter | |
| Nicole 2002-01-21, 11:14 am |
| Peter,
You are going to great lengths to justify your opinion by creating fantasy scenarios. I'm sorry, but passing a certification exam by cheating has nothing to do with 4 kids starving to death. No certification is a magic bean to create the mighty job beanstalk.
Your original opinion was that you had no problem with cheating to get what you want. Although I may personally find your opinion loathsome, can we please stick to rational arguments and stop making up stories about having to kill people so your kids don't starve? | |
| John Bakker 2002-01-21, 1:08 pm |
| Thanks for all reply's and your input but
quote:
I'm trying to deal with the fact that when a dump or braindump is mentioned everybody runs to nail it down because it is wrong.
If there is a way to get an idea of the sphere of the exam, like how questions are asked, then that is normal. In school you also practice for exam with questions.
So if i had a created dump like the definition and changed variables and text and also give no answers, [suppose i knew them all] and i would call it, lets say transfer would anybody still stand up?
and i still agree with the no cheating thing
Will you call this cheating or is it a study method?
xmpl: last week i failed for enterprise developer: it deals with enterprise javabeans corba and xml. After this i know what pieces are left to study for me not that i don't know what to do whith my money but i need to pass this exam before a certain deadline.
Am i cheating myself or what?
I have decided to re-edit the dumps on my site so the answers are missing, and i think of it as a study method...a supplement to the books | |
| Nicole 2002-01-21, 1:34 pm |
| John,
I'm not sure just leaving off the answers to the questions is truly not cheating either, although anyone who uses them would certainly have to do some work. I think changing the variables and wording of the question would help more, since it would require them to think and evaluate each question when they took the exam. Of course, changing the name of the company wouldn't help much -- it's the wording that makes you think beyond the bare facts and think in terms of applying your knowledge.
Regardless of motive, revealing the actual questions on the exam is a violation of the user agreement. We may whine and complain about the tests and procedures, but it comes down to the fact that it's Microsoft's (or whomever's) ball, playground and rules and there's not a whole lot we can do about it if we decide to play their game. If you don't like the game, it's time to go play someone else's or decide not to play.
I was personally disappointed that MS decided to stop telling you how well you did on particular portions of the exam. I liked to look at it and figure out what I needed to go back and study again post-exam. However, I support the goal and think it will be a help. It would be MORE helpful if MS changed the exam questions from time to time, or even drew from a bigger pool of questions at test time.
The problem with a bigger pool of questions or a lot of different exams is that it makes it very diffucult to write an exam that pulls up a set of questions which fairly tests all the candidates on the same subject material. But I think it's the most appropriate and useful way for the vendors to focus their efforts. Brain dumps wouldn't do anyone much specific good if there were 4000 possible questions! And it might help those companies which are trying to legitimately generate helpful learning material. | |
|
| Something to think about:
"Upon Cisco's determination at its sole discretion that certification candidate has cheated on an exam, has aided in the cheating of an exam or has disclosed test questions of an exam to a third party. In the event of such situations, cisco in addition to revoking a certification candidate's certification pursue legal action to the maximum extent possible"
When taking a cisco exam you agree to this.
Don't you think that other vendors have similar clauses in their NDA?
Why would you sign the NDA, knowingly break it and then risk the consequences if caught?
Man.... you gotta have ethics.
I'm stepping off my soapbox again.
ea | |
| John Bakker 2002-01-21, 2:34 pm |
| I wil reconsider this and am trying to find a legal way to pass usefull information to other students in some way, but not by posting of original questions and risking my butt..or violation any company rules
I can't get rid of the feeling:
"everybody does it and nobody is talking about it"
If anyone here post a examquestion that he/she doesn't understand and asks for help, then that is a violation and after some reply's the answer is strait, it is a braindump. | |
| thecomeons 2002-01-21, 3:57 pm |
| is it not posible to use a dump as an aid to study?
one of my sources is the macmin technical training a+ course, which has a number of questions at the end of each module. this course doesn't give details of why an answer is correct, so i go back into the details of the topic and find out why.
surely questions in dumps can be used in a similar manner, without actually memorising correct answers to relevant questions? | |
| Nicole 2002-01-21, 4:18 pm |
| Well, yes and no. The author may have good intentions and the user may have good intentions, but the fact is that it's a violation of the user agreement to reveal the questions to anyone else. Some people are okay with that -- I'm not.
If they are the actual questions and you know them ahead of time, it's cheating... and although you may not intend to memorize the answers, chances are you will after you see it a couple of times. Some people are okay with cheating -- I'm not.
If you want practice questions, there are lots of vendors that work hard at doing just that, and I vote with my wallet. You can pay for a braindump, or you can pay for legitimate practice questions. The only reason to choose the braindump is because you want advance knowledge of the exam.
Well, so do I  But I'm not going to violate my code of ethics for it. | |
| peterd 2002-01-22, 2:57 am |
| Hello Nicole,
the whole thread is an invention, a 'what would you do if' scenario.
Everyone so far has said 'no' except me, but there must be some given situation where some of those people would say, 'why not?'.
Never say never...
you don't know what tomorrow will bring.
Regards
Peter | |
| John Bakker 2002-01-22, 3:16 am |
| we all seem to know that dumps exist but we have never ever looked at it or used it....
[If i cheated, i wouldn't say it either] but when i go for an exam and pay 149 eur and fail, for the next exam i try to remember as good as possible what questions i had, wouldn't you?
If i keep this information private there is nothing wrong but if i post it somewhere it is wrong.
strict:
quote:
If anyone here post a examquestion that he/she doesn't understand and asks for help, then that is a violation and after some reply's the answer is strait, it is a braindump.
and that would make any study board some kind of braindump | |
| StewartH 2002-01-22, 3:20 am |
| OK Peter, in your current situation which is (I assume) that no-one is on the brink of starvation or poverty and that is unlikely to be the case in the near future, would you study the subject using the normal reference materials or use braindumps to pass the exam? | |
| barabba 2002-01-22, 5:16 am |
| No lies, I definately would ! | |
| peterd 2002-01-22, 6:57 am |
| Hi Stewart,
I have studied the books, written my own revision notes, used Boson exams and generally spent about 3 months preparing for each exam so far.
I haven't, so far, needed to use a braindump to pass. Whether that remains the case in the future I have no idea. It could be that the next one I take is actually my last ever exam, as I'll not need to renew it in three years time (due to my age). Anything else I study is an added extra and I don't really need to pass an exam at the end of it.
I would prefer to learn the job properly because I'm a lazy git and I don't want to over-extend myself or put myself under any undue pressure.
But still, assuming I could get away clean with something dodgy, I'd have no hesitation in going for it.
regards
Peter | |
| StewartH 2002-01-22, 7:26 am |
| You could get 'clean away' with using braindumps but you choose not to. | |
| peterd 2002-01-23, 3:22 am |
| Hi Stewart,
until I get the next job and they expect me to know more than I need to know for my current job.
The last thing I want to do is to put myself under any pressure, it's too much like hard work!
This job is ok, not much to do other than study most of the day, but it doesn't pay me enough so I'll need to look elsewhere later this year (maybe).
I need more salary for about five years to boost my retirement fund! One more job should do it for me but there's no hurry and I can afford to wait for the right job.
Regards
Peter | |
| exambuster 2002-01-23, 4:24 am |
| ok now,
it seems that the dumps are mostly on ms exams,
can anyone tell me why there are not many dumps on CCNP or SunSolaris Exam ? | |
| MistyRing 2002-01-23, 5:38 am |
| Not so many people are doing them.
Or maybe those who are have more ethics??? | |
| StewartH 2002-01-23, 5:54 am |
| PeterD, No-one has asked you about your salary, your age, your retirement fund or anything else you wrote about in that last post.
What are you going on about?
One minute you are justifying the use of dodgy software & braindumps, then when challenged you say "well actually I don't really do that after all". Now we get the life story of PeterD.
All very fascinating but the relevance is what exactly? | |
| peterd 2002-01-23, 6:43 am |
| hi Stewart,
sorry if this is too complex for you, it seems simple to me.
I'll start somewhere else...
many years ago, when I was a young lad, my mother used to tell me, 'cheats never prosper', and I'm sure she believed that. I've found over the years that she was wrong.
I haven't yet had to cheat on any exam or steal software that I need, but there may come a time in the future when I do have to, and I will, without hesitation.
Whether or not you, or anyone else, think it justified is of no consequence to me. The question was posed originally, 'would you' and my answer has always been 'yes, if I have to'.
Is that plain enough?
Regards
Peter | |
| PremaSharma 2002-01-23, 7:40 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by peterd
I haven't yet had to cheat on any exam or steal software that I need, but there may come a time in the future when I do have to, and I will, without hesitation.
This sounds very naive to me. I can understand maybe if getting that cert alone and not necessarily the knowledge that goes with it was important, but I find that pretty hard to believe in most cases. If you HAD to cheat, you would. OK, sure. But I cannot see why anyone would HAVE to cheat on such exams. Do you honestly think that these pieces of paper are worth so much? Maybe if you are making 20K now and getting that MCP that you will never be called on to use would cause you to jump to 40K it might make sense, but I don't see this happening. A cert is not a "ticket to ride" and you won't become automatically wealthy by having some, so I just can't see how this would be worth the effort of bothering to cheat. And from what I have seen of cheaters, I am not really convinced that cheating is any easier than actually learning the material yourself. And this still avoids the question of what you would do if you HAD to cheat on an exam and then were quizzed on the knowledge that you were supposed to have had. All this will do is waste everyone's time and money, including yours. What is the point? | |
| StewartH 2002-01-23, 7:55 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by PeterD
I haven't yet had to cheat on any exam or steal software that I need
quote:
Originally posted by PeterD
I have Win 95, Win NT and SQL 6.5, all licenced as I stole them from a company that owed me money
You just can't help contradicting yourself can you? | |
| peterd 2002-01-23, 9:58 am |
| Hi Stewart,
ah yes, different thing. The original discussion was the use of 'keys' obtained over the internet to gain access to protected software (usually downloaded over the internet) that's used in learning.
Yes, I walked away from a failed company with a few hundred pounds worth of software because they went bust owing me around 6000 quid. And I've used that software in other companies to get something out of it.
As I say, different thing entirely.
TBH I'm getting bored with this and I suspect many people around the world are too, it's hardly relevant to most people. So unless you come up with someting relevant to the original discussion I suggest we let this one drop.
Regards
Peter | |
| John Bakker 2002-01-23, 12:31 pm |
| After all lets quit the cracked software and stealing and focus on the so called braindumps.
It matters how those dumps are constructed, that's my opinion.
quote:
A braindump is questions and answers from the actual exams that someone posts on the Internet after writing an exam. They are essentially dumping their brains of information.
So if i had a created dump like the definition and changed variables and text and also give no answers, [suppose i knew them all] and i would call it, lets say transfer would anybody still stand up?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will you call this cheating or is it just a study method?
I think it extends your books and you just can't pass on braindumps alone.
But lets turn it around:
would you agree with yourself if you study hard, all the right way and sit exam and fail while some other person takes 10 braindumps and passes?
Shurely you would peek into that braindump to get ahead of the other person, and you
will have the required knowlegde on your job | |
| StewartH 2002-01-24, 5:16 am |
| Peter you underestimate yourself.
With 3 stars and 500+ views, our little disagreement must have kept a few people amused. | |
| nbroughton 2002-01-25, 7:18 am |
| 1.) When you cheat at anything, you only cheat yourself.
2.) Es law es ley law. | |
|
| I would like to have all the materials availible to me to study, but with that said questions and answers (somebody else's) are not good study materials. It seems most providers will soon move to adaptive testing to stop this sort of practice. Any system no matter how good will be circumvented by someone.
That's what we do!
Its human nature.
I am in my 5th semester of the Cisco networking academy and sometimes I feel its taking too long to acheive my goals. But then when I see how people respond to posts like this I feel a little more relaxed.
Maybe if I had some sort of notes for Routing I would have done better. I also feel because I learned the material over a longer span I forgot some stuff before the actual test time arrived.
The big two (Cisco&MS) will find a way to at least slow down the production and legal sales of these notes so stay tuned.
Also I do know of some people that download Troys and cheet sheets and change the answers and then repost them to Gnutella and Morpheus users.
Oh yea, no comment on the software
Remember theres no such thing as a paper CCIE!!!!
I wish there were LABS for everything. | |
|
| This is just my opinion. Everyone has different ways for studying and preparing. It is called choice. I have been taking certification tests for about 3 years now. The Microsoft tests that I have taken in no way compare to the knowledge that I need to know to do my job. However, I have studied very hard and used legal test prep software to achieve my goals. I believe that it is a person's own choice on how they choose to prepare.
In answer to the questions. No and not sure on the second one. Depends on the company who developed the software.
As far as certification goes, Microsoft has made it a game and you have to play by their rules. So you just have to learn how to play their game. Their tests are not revelvant. Experience speaks volumes. The interviews that I went on before the current position I am at ,I was asked real world questions not make up scenarios that expect you to answer the "Microsoft" way. I have gotten where I am today by experience not by passing any certification test. The certification does have some value but Experience is the best. | |
| MistyRing 2002-01-25, 9:03 am |
| It's not called choice, it's called fraud. | |
| hemingri 2002-01-25, 9:06 am |
| What would be the point? The goal should be to learn the subject material well enough to get a job, hold a job, maintain your self-respect, and to gain the respect of co-workers (including the boss) that comes with someone that is able to contribute to the organization's success.
The goal is not to pass a test but to learn the information. The test is just a society method to verify that you have really learned the material and provides an entry into the job. | |
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| I have similar materials at my disposal. The truth is I would never base my exam experience on simply parroting the answers from such a braindump.I always read the material and make sure that I can answer any set of unknown questions with at least 92% before I make an attempt to pass the exam. So the answer is a "No". However I may use the questions with a multitude of others just to test myself.
Regarding the piracy - yes. I would use the program and I do not know of anyone who would not (privately). | |
| Nicole 2002-01-25, 9:35 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by Cobby
Remember theres no such thing as a paper CCIE!!!!
I wish there were LABS for everything.
Amen. But then how expensive would certifications be! | |
| unreal 2002-01-25, 10:04 am |
| Personal view: Some of the people, you see around you, crimes on paper everyday, you will realise that people by nature, will normally do something that they would say otherwise. I mean if there's something like a "chance" right in front of you, who would't be tempted ? Right at end, it boils down to "one's character" " to be or not to be". And to decide whether to accept the consequence of one's action.
Ok, my straight answer is no, and no. Though paper is nice, but the humilation of not being able to perform a real life job, is pretty overwhelming . I rather "build a house on real bricks and steel than on paper" ! | |
| Nicole 2002-01-25, 10:36 am |
| quote:
Regarding the piracy - yes. I would use the program and I do not know of anyone who would not (privately).
Speaking of software priacy, lord knows Microsoft can break the bank. But there's an important program to remember for aquiring cheap software:
http://www.microsoft.com/partner/bu...ces/actionpack/ | |
| MistyRing 2002-01-25, 10:40 am |
| The odd thing is, 90% of people (myself included) in this forum seem to condemn this sort of thing - fire & brimstone style - but there are an awful lot of "where are the best braindumps?" type posts.
Doesn't quite add up.... | |
| thecomeons 2002-01-25, 2:58 pm |
| if the tests weren't multiple choice would the same number of certified technicians/administrators have passed their exams? | |
|
| Well I know most of the Ms tests are multiple guess and without their listed choices it would near impossible to discern what the question is in some cases.
But I can tell you from experience. On the Cisco tests 503,504,506 there are many cases where you are presented with a blank type field to enter the appropriate IOS command.
At first this kinda freaked me out, after all in the real IOS there is always this guy "?"
-Jay | |
| Sh0tgun 2002-01-25, 6:42 pm |
| LOL! I didn't know that about the NP exams. No kidding? If that's the case, a help cmd sure would come in handy.
Obviously if an exam asks me to choose between "show cdp neighbors" and "show cdp next-door-neighbors" -- well, that's a bit of a hint | |
| Psydefx 2002-01-25, 6:53 pm |
| The interesting thing is in the post above this one... what defines a braindump?
I think the real answers are found in the intention rather than the execution. I have used several resources for attaining certifications. This includes the normal: take a class, read a book, work with it... and exam prep materials. My favorite is trans...... I have also used cheet...... and troy....
I may have felt "undeserving" or "paper" if I had taken those articles, memorized them (or taken them with me), and taken the exam.
I do not feel undeserving or paper, why? Because I used them as a guide (perhaps no one noticed, but the first editions of some had purposeful (or blatant) mistakes, and if you believe that every braindump out there is from someone who scored 1000 and has a photographic .... if you believe it's 20%, I have some beach-front property in AZ, great price....
As for the classes, I have not attended a certification class that didn't have an instructor that gave a few "helpful hints" along the way.
In 1995 there was an overall pass rate for first time takers of about 12% ACROSS THE BOARD. That was a time when there were no real identified resources for people who wanted to certify. Now, the average person has about an 85% chance of passing the first time if they study because all kinds of prep tools are available.
Aside from all of this, if you have the test pool, (generally speaking, 250-600 questions) for an exam, can you reasonably memorize all of them, and what about questions that are close????
MS has helped bring the curve back a little (not enough) by including multiple answer multiple choice. I don't care who you are... if you have a question on DNS, DHCP, DDNS, and TCP/IP implementation over a WAN that has 15 possible answers, and you don't know even how many should be chosen, you had better be able to discern what's going on. When you present the same question 3 times with one requirement changed between them, then realize that it's 3 of 50... really, it's more work to try and memorize than to.....
Take the information you get from practice questions and flow chart it - map it out and make it your own. Then go to an environment and watch it in action. This is how I use information from forums, products that are available for test prep, and books and environment.
When I took Win 2K, I used trans....... I had been working with Win2K for over a year. I think I studied for about 40 hours total. An example of this was when starting to prep for 70-220 (Security Design), I loaded trans....... and took test A. When I was done, I had passed the initial run. (First time it had ever happened). Suprised, I then took exam B. When I passed, I had a beer and went to sleep. The next morning I took 70-220 and passed. I would never have done it without trans......
Synopsis:
The purpose of taking an exam is to test your knowledge within a skill set. I don't understand how you can test a skill set you don't know you have. (If you don't know the target, how can you aim?). While I see the arguement of moral dilema, what is it exactly that you do, expect that the items on the exam will always match what you do on a daily basis? No. You need an outline of what to study.
Adult Learning- One of the first things they will teach you as a trainer is that an adult learner has a purpose for their education.
Bring the two concepts together and see the shortest distance between two places.
BTW - I (as a trainer) often find the best exams are open book. I think that all of the questions with this topic would go away if they just made them that way...
Besides, they are often times harder
Cheers | |
| Psydefx 2002-01-25, 7:01 pm |
| Short answer for question number 2, no. It's stealing copyrighted information and prosecutable even if you question the moral dilema of "free information".
Pragmatism Rules! | |
| greenbean 2002-01-25, 7:12 pm |
| Wow, what a question. If you asked me this question when I was 16, I would have been more likely to say maybe. Now I would say definitely NO. The reason? Because I'm getting certified for my own satisfaction, not just to have the certification. As someone stated earlier, it would be a very empty victory if I had to cheat to get it. Even if I was the only one that knew I cheated, I still wouldn't do it. I got such a rush from passing my first MCSE test. It may have been a (very) low score, but I still passed, and it was all because I put effort into it.
Thanks for letting me put my 2 cents in! | |
| peter101 2002-01-25, 7:56 pm |
| use a braindump only as one of many tools on the way to certification, they are useful when and only when you have completed all the traditional studying methods. They let you get a "feel" for the exam. I think that if you use a braindump exclusivly for preparing for a certification you are only cheeting your self and employer because you only have the knowlage to pass the test and not the background information you need to solve problems in the real world. That said nothing replaces practical experiance (sic) in your chosen field. I would not use "pirated" software either, If I wanted to use it I would pay for it like I do for the rest of my studying materials. | |
| John Bakker 2002-01-26, 3:39 am |
| quote:
Well I know most of the Ms tests are multiple guess and without their listed choices it would near impossible to discern what the question is in some cases.
This is also the case in SCJP2 exam, IBM's oo, and Enterprise developerexam, open fields and you can enter on the commandline.
Also multiple anwswer could be true so it its impossible to pass on braindumps.
quote:
MistyRing ..
The odd thing is, 90% of people (myself included) in this forum seem to condemn this sort of thing - fire & brimstone style - but there are an awful lot of "where are the best braindumps?" type posts.
Be honest to yourself, in how you deal with braindumps or ripped software, and think about that in a new thread or a reply. | |
| limsam 2002-01-27, 9:43 pm |
| No and No.
Otherwise, I will have 25 certification to my name.
I usually allocate one full month study for each exam. Usually it takes me more than one month per exam. | |
| Shamest 2002-01-27, 10:02 pm |
| Not a chance in both cases. The idea is to learn and prove your skills. You will eventually get found out.
Shamest | |
| MistyRing 2002-01-28, 6:08 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by John Bakker Be honest to yourself, in how you deal with braindumps or ripped software, and think about that in a new thread or a reply.
Ok John, the answer is I don't use braindumps. As someone else said it would be a hollow victory. One of the main puproses of doing the MCSE, for me at least, was to learn the topic. Not really achieveable by memorizing braindumps. Braindumpers merely serve to devalue the cert which is annoying for the rest of us.
As regards ripping software, I don't know many people who have a huge problem with taking home a CD from work to install on their home computer. But I suppose if I was a struggling developer with a great product I would get equally annoyed at that kind of thing too. | |
| John Bakker 2002-01-28, 12:43 pm |
| About the software i think you're right, not to justify it but look around and you can see it hapen.
Maybe it's time to stop this thread and focus on the next cert...
if you take 'examnotes' literal i suppose....... braindumps..?
The statement below is true
The statement above is false
Psychological Paradox
| |
| eltech 2002-01-28, 11:14 pm |
| Ya, I never have liked to cheat, even while growing up (some say I never have!) in grade school. It just is not right. I am working on my Net+ and someone I know says she has lots of braindumps copied at home and she said she could get them to me. I am just not interested. |
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