General Discussion - MCSE Certification - Worth the paper it is printed on?

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MCSE Certification - Worth the paper it is printed on?

bass2k1

2001-12-08, 4:57 pm

The title says it all...

Nicole

2001-12-09, 10:18 pm

Yes. You can certainly get it without learning a damn thing, but if you don't have it you look like a loser once you get to a certain level.

I was just looking at a position last week which wanted an NT Admin for a mid-size network (lots of other IT folks on board, but I guess they wanted a dedicated person). 2 years experience and MCSE "A MUST".

Somehow those two requirements seems odd together. So what idiot would turn down someone with, say, 10 years network admin experience and other certs, but not an MCSE? It sounds like a clueless HR posting, but in this case, I actually know better.

NickL

2001-12-09, 11:31 pm

Nicole:

But what if one doesn't have the ten years experience, but has a degree and wants to go into IT. For this person Certifications would make sense particularly if they have a more technical hands on degree and experience such as accounting, or finance.
I myself am going for Oracle Developer and JAVA even though I have a financial background.
The MCSE is overhyped, and its value has been diminished

moranz

2001-12-10, 8:18 am

this cert will help you if you are in a place where there is high competition or if you are looking for new job

Nicole

2001-12-10, 11:04 am

quote:
Originally posted by NickL
But what if one doesn't have the ten years experience, but has a degree and wants to go into IT. For this person Certifications would make sense particularly if they have a more technical hands on degree and experience such as accounting, or finance.

I wasn't disagreeing with that. However, the MCSE has become so ubitquitous that those without -- even if they have a lot of experience -- can suffer for the lack of it if they are looking for a position that goes anywhere near a Microsoft product.

quote:
I myself am going for Oracle Developer and JAVA even though I have a financial background.

There's a lot of work available in Oracle Financials; you're financial background may help you land one of those impossible-to-get Oracle entry-level positions. I would emphasize that background on your resume.

darthw

2001-12-10, 10:49 pm

The financial background should definitely be a plus, as stated!!

Certainly, if you get to a certain level of experience, having the MCSE seems to be more expected. It also seems that HR managers are told to look for the "alphabet soup" on an applicants resume, so in such cases it may help one get an interview.

Not being certified, or otherwise formally educated, in anything, even with ten years experience, isn't necessarily something that's going to dazzle an employer. No certs can indicate to an employer that one is unwilling, or unable, to learn. I've known a few techs that have been in the biz for years, but they only know what they do at their current job. Taking certs can help expose one to things outside their current support role.

Of course, I've also known a tech or two with only a couple certs who can run circles around my technical skills. So, certs cannot be the only tool for measurement.

I do think most certs have lost value in the market. I think a lot of the overpriced, career tech schools that "guarantee you'll pass MCSE in ten days with no exp." have really helped devalue the certifications.

I think of it this way. If I take the tests I learn at least a little bit more. Studying for exams helps me do my current job better, and earning a certification gives me a few feathers in my cap for use if I find myself kicked to the curb. One never knows what each employer is looking for on a resume, so the more feathers I have the more likely I will look like a potential employee to an HR or IT manager.

NickL

2001-12-10, 10:56 pm

{{I do think most certs have lost value in the market. I think a lot of the overpriced, career tech schools that "guarantee you'll pass MCSE in ten days with no exp." have really helped devalue the certifications}}

If you study alot on your own and pass the exams, it doesn't make a difference how you got them, just that you did. Once you actually pass the exams, and put it on your resume, you can say you went to ______ place to prepare for your certification exams.
The fact that you became certified, plus any experience or other skills you have will be more focused upon.

The Ghost

2001-12-11, 1:06 am

I wish I had a financial background too...

Hey Nick, can we be freinds? :P

Nicole

2001-12-11, 11:48 am

quote:
Originally posted by NickL
If you study alot on your own and pass the exams, it doesn't make a difference how you got them, just that you did. Once you actually pass the exams, and put it on your resume, you can say you went to ______ place to prepare for your certification exams.
The fact that you became certified, plus any experience or other skills you have will be more focused upon.

As a manager, I personally value self-study over someone who's gone to a technical college. It's not that the colleges are bad, but that self-study tends to require more discipline and committment. And if I am not familiar with the tech school, it might be one of these boot-camps where you learn to pass the exam, but not the material.

So unless you actually go to one, I wouldn't suggest putting it on your resume... lying on your resume is bad news. What happens if the interviewer is an instructor at that college and knows for a fact you didn't attend her classes? But neither would I avoid putting any classes on there (unless maybe it's one of the really shady boot camps) -- not all employers think like me, and taking the time and effort to go to classes shows committment, too.

P.S. I don't really know if I'm a typical employer -- HR departments and recruiters care about certifications, but I've yet to meet another department manager who did. I don't really give a hoot about certifications, except that someone who has some relevant certifications or continuing education might be a little more likely to get an interview because it tends to show someone who wants to *learn*. Once the interview happens, all bets are off: I'm going to hire someone because I like their attitude and I think they can do the job.

Kasor

2001-12-11, 5:53 pm

In term of "PAPER MCSE" NOT

But if u are experienced MCSE, it is something that can get u around.

darthw

2001-12-11, 8:01 pm

I agree with Kasor that someone with a list of advanced certs but no experience would certainly get some scrutiny at an interview. If one is MCSE, CNE, CCNP, combined with any variety of certs, but have never worked in the business, he/she may show a desire or ability to learn. However, I would hire them to an entry-level job to get the experience and prove themselves.

Like Nicole, I think self-study can show more consistent effort and self-discipline. At times self-study may indicate even more of a desire to learn, compared to a quick week-long cram course, because of the long term initiative required.

However, I care about certification/education or I wouldn't work to earn such myself. I'm not currently in a hiring manager position, but should I ever find myself there such feathers on one's resume would make a difference. I know the dedication that continual education requires, and I appreciate the quality in others. Certainly, education level and certification would not be the only criteria of measurement, but it draws my attention.

Ultimately, an individual's personality is going to win a lot of points. The most talented, certified, and educated interviewee is worthless if they are a snarling, pompous fool.

jackiechan

2001-12-20, 5:00 pm

I think that getting the right mix of certs and experience is the issue here. Having no experience and a bunch of certs on one end and having a lot of experience and no certs on the other end. It is in between these two ends.

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