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IT worker shortage myth exposed
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| Hello,
Here, I have an article from the USA Today that deftly describes that the manufactured idea of the tech worker shortage is pure bunk.
Basically, this whole situation began as a fairly innocuous decision that I had made back in August. I was tired of coding web sites for a living and after reading all of these glaring headlines about there being 1.3 million jobs available in IT and especially a shortage for network admin, I decided to pursue a career in networking.
Sure, no problem. There is virtually a high tech training center on every street corner anyway. I visit every single one of them in the Orange County area of Southern California and was appalled by my findings. Obviously, most of these schools are not accredited and there is no protection for the paying student. In other words, there is no quality control to speak of. These people came across as idiots and incompetent, but they are very adept at taking your money.
At this point, I will not be entering the cisco academy as I had stated in my earlier post. Why? Because I refuse to be taken in by one of these greatest money making cash cow scams ever. At this point, my intentions are to be more than a thorn in the a$$ of MS, Cisco, Oracle..etc. My greatest pleasure will be to help expose the pure GREED on which these companies operate. They do not realize how many people ARE NOT getting jobs, that have spent their hard earned coin and have studied their asses off and then attained certification. There are excellent and qualified people being eliminated from the interviewing or hiring process for a host of reasons, and none of them make sense or add up. All I can say is this, without sounding redundant, there is no worker shortage for the high tech sector. Certifications are only for people working in the industry to be used as a benchmark of skills. Certifications are NOT meant for career changers or to get your foot in the door of IT.
Of course, there will be some exceptions, the bargain basement hire. Usually in the 18 to 23 year old range, very gullible, willing to work on 20K a year salary that demands a 70 hour work week. This will usually be a deadend position that will not lead the person to where he/she wants to go.
Here are some URL's, read them and then save yourself some money and a lot of your valuable time. I will only be satisfied when MS, Cisco and all the other greedy liars fess up and refuse to allow training centers to sell certs. The financial rewards these companies are reaping is mind boggling. Can you think of a better way to drive up your companies stock, sure, have a million people push your name on their resumes.
Read on...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/comment/ncguest4.htm
http://comment.cio.com/sound.cfm?ID=66
http://www.aahe.org/change/paralleluniverse.htm
[This message has been edited by scamslam (edited 12-11-2000).] | |
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| Your post once again brings up a good point scamslam. Like I have stated before I Have seen jobs posted for months after I applied and was rejected. Why? Because it is not what the organization is looking for.
Remember, a job posting is nothing but a "wish-list" of qualifications that a company is looking for in an IT employee.
Another thing to consider is that a very large majority of the people seeking IT positions are career changers. People are trying to switch into the IT field, because of high salaries...well maybe a few, but because of the high numbers of openings that are being posted and the constant cry of an IT shortage. So, what is the best way to enter this new and exciting field? Certifications.
I strongly agree with scamslam in that certifications are not made to get your foot in the door. Some people have been fortunate enough to get hired with just certification(s) alone and with little or no experience. That is not the case with everyone.
I recently spoke with a friend who graduated before me with an Associates degree and he complained about not being able to find work. He indicated that most of the places that offered him jobs were not willing to pay what he was asking for. Now take it he has not work experience.
I started out with no certifications and a little experience, but I was not expecting a large salary either. I was also turned down for a couple of hundred jobs (literally) before someone gave me a chance. I was a career changer and when I entered the IT field, I took a MAJOR pay cut (went from $55,000 a year to $28,880 a year)and turned down a promotion into management. Granted I am making more than $28,880 a year now, but I am not making $50,000 a year either. It doesn't bother me because I enjoy what I do. "If you do what you love, you will never work another day in your life".
My best advice from my experience is to get a degree of some sort (Associates or Bachelors), get at least a year or two of experience before pursuing a certification(s), get a certification to ENHANCE your knowledge, and then pursue futher education. You have to stand out. There are too many people trying to enter the field by following everyone in the crowd.
I know I jumped off the subject a little, but the only way that vendors will become more responsible with their certification programs is if people stop pursuing them. We know that it will never happen and big names like Microsoft, Cisco, and Oracle will continue to make money from people whose bubbles get burst once they see how the IT market really is.
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| I have experienced the same problem. Actually, I am in IT right now but I am employed as a . . . dare I say it . . . as a ... COBOL programmer. Not surprisingly, I find it dead boring and I started studying for my certifications for two major reasons: 1) Boredom and 2) A chance at getting a job that I liked. But especially where I live now, it seems that once you're pegged as a programmer, that getting jobs in tech support are almost out of the question. Certs are OK, but they definitely take a back seat to experience and COBOL doesn't really qualify anyone to do much else. I would consider taking a pay cut if I liked the job, but I can't afford to take too much of a cut as I have expenses to take care of and many entry-level tech jobs are quite low-paying at least in the south. But then again, I wasn't quite taken in as much as some people were. I never thought that it was going to be easy, and I never really bought into the "shortage of IT workers" theory. Part of my reason for studying was after all, simple interest and not really for the big bucks as some people are attracted by. | |
| computerdummy 2000-12-11, 2:47 pm |
| this makes a lot of sense. If companies spout the line about how great it is to be an IT worker, more lemmings will take the courses. More prospective employees mean lower salaries, good ole supply and demand at work. I am more or less a computer dummy and want to get my A+ cert, but remain in my fairly well paying technician job. As you mentioned, these certs are great resume boosters, so long as you have a resume to begin with. My brother in law went through a couple of years worth of training. He is a real smart guy although not what you would call highly motivated. He graduated at the top of his class and after about 6 months of looking in this so called great job market, got a help desk type of position for about 10-12 bucks an hour. Now they are moving to colorado, but he wants to stay here. He will probably have another long search ahead of him. | |
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| Same here Randy I am looking for at least network support, I find it much more challenging than TechSupport. But what happens is that they peg me as tech support only even with certifications in Novell and NT. Currently I got stuck as software development too, which I don't enjoy. Generally they say I have good people skills and they could really use someone to over see the phones, but it is boring except for talking to people! Sure I am looking for another job and I realize it will take time as Bobby pointed out, but I would be willing to settle for less $ if it seemed like it had learning potential!
Just my $.02,
GalaxyGal  | |
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| I know what you mean. It seems like the people who do the hiring can be so myopic at times. At the moment I would gladly settle for almost any tech support position but my aim is networking as well. Software development doesn't interest me too much, but I figure my experience at reading and writing code could be of some use. But it's almost like once you've had experience in one area, you are pegged that way for good -- as though the skills learned in one could be of no use in anything else! But that's life I guess. Something will turn up eventually no doubt, and until it does, I guess I'll have to stick with the mainframes. | |
| KEVKID131 2000-12-11, 3:10 pm |
| I was teaching martial arts for 15 years before I got into the IT field. I went to a tech school to study for my A+ cert and NT server, workstation and Net Ess. I had no exp at all. I got a job at Gateway doing sales....which helped alot because I had to know about all the systems and the new products coming out. It was because I had the A+ cert that enabled me to qualify for the Gateway job. I stayed there for 6 months. After that I found a job at a level 1 help desk through a friend of mine. By the way....a different friend of mine was the manager at the gateway store that I worked at. So....it comes down to who you know that will help you get into the IT field.....or you might just happen to be in the right place at the right time. Just remember ...once your in.....your in. | |
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| Did any of you check the urls that I posted? That is just the tip of the iceberg.
To KEVKID131:
Your post seems to solidify the consistent theme about obtaining a job in IT, it depends on who you know. That's good when I read posts such as yours, that also means that other eyeballs have seen posts such as that. This should at least serve a notice to unsuspecting students what they are up against. I know without a shred of doubt the people who get their foot in the door without experience, after obtaining a cert, fit some type of hiring profile that seems to be the prevailing method for hiring. Companies think they are above reproach in their hiring methods, some methods are just flat out blatantly discriminatory.
As BobbyDigital noted in his post, there will always be people who will attempt certification to gain entry-level employment. I believe this to be true, but, the net provides a level playing field in which I can disseminate information and urls which spread around very quickly.
It will be to my great joy and delight to see enrollment plummet at independent and vendor aligned training centers.
Political payoffs = mythical shortage = more money for vendors = lots of people who can't find jobs in the end
For the newbie who has aspirations of working in the glamorized arena of IT, I have some information for you. Harris Miller, who heads the ITAA (Information Technology Association of America) is nothing but a puppet for the very powerful Silicon Valley. They keep his association and his wallet very thick with ca$h. He is the main instigator of shortage propaganda, his studies and statistics are nothing but biased lies. They do nothing but stir the passions of the unwitting populace to open up their checkbooks for training.
When Silicon Valley whispers into the ear of the ITAA and the US Congress, they listen and they obey.
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| It's the 21st century and the US, whether or not will admit it, is a capitalist society. It's all about the money. Money talks and bulls#!t walks as they say. It affects all industries. | |
| computerdummy 2000-12-11, 8:31 pm |
| hey slam,
have you tried firing an e-mail off to 60 minutes or any of those type of folks? I think it would make for an interesting piece.
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| To BobbyDigital,
There is a distinct difference between capitalism and outright fraud. I'm going on the record right now and stating that MS, Cisco and all the other cert offering vendors, including the ITAA (vendors of propaganda), are guilty of outright fraud.
The whole shortage myth has been so beautifully orchestrated and perpetuated that the general populace has been duped. Maybe even you? I call it the Immaculate Deception and not capitalism. Fraud is illegal and so are discriminatory hiring processes.
Here is a challenge. Look in the classified ads or job bank web sites, where are the jobs for tech school graduates? Aren't Corporate America and the US Congress the ones who screamed for more schools to offer training for the IT industry? We heard their cries for more trained Americans to fill the 1.3 millions jobs that go unfilled everyday, right?
For an industry that is allegedly desperate for trained people, contains a hidden agenda that will be brought to the surface by people like me. The agenda is a massively concerted effort by vendors and companies alike, to lie to and bilk the people and to create saturation to depress IT wages. Also, another reason to exaggerate the shortage myth is to import "cheap" labor from India and abroad. When an industry as a whole uses means to hire such as "who you know" to get your foot in the door, should serve as a red flag of utmost importance. This is an industry that is arrogant and will not permit the entrance of persons unless they meet a specific profile. I'm just waiting for lawsuits to start making their way to the courts. This is an industry without morals or any kind of ethics.
Would you like to see companies that hire H-1B's. Here ya go:
http://www.zazona.com/shameh1b/
I think the last thing the ITAA and vendors want is the word to get out that the shortage is nothing but a fraudulent myth. I will continue, hopefully, to be a major thorn in their A$$ until the general populace is educated on their deceptive ways.
Peace out | |
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| To computerdummy,
Nice name by the way =).
Good point. Here is some knowledge for your grey matter. About 3 years ago, 60 Minutes (channel 2) did a story on the US Congress and why they wished to increase the number of H-1B visas. 60 Minutes put them on the spot and asked why companies could not hire qualified persons on their own soil. This included persons that were displaced from the massive defense industry lay-offs as well. Well, this story created a huge fervor throughout the IT industry and Silicon Valley. If you are not cognizant of the monetary and political clout that Silicon Valley holds, you should know now. When Silicon Valley speaks, people obey. Anyway, Silicon Valley contacted channel 2 and it abundantly made clear to NOT air stories such as exposing the H-1B increase and how it affects hiring and job opportunities for Americans. So much for free speech huh?
I sincerely hope that people become educated and aware of what is transpiring before our very eyes.
Peace out | |
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| Great board guys!!! I applaud all of the messages. I am one of the many who has been scammed by these so called tech schools or training centers. It cost me 12,000 and a long hard year of going full time to basically learn how to read cbt's and listen to my instructor tell how close they were to real thing. This school also had a supposedly 97% placement rate. Bull****!!!! I was one of the fortunate one's though. While working part-time after school in the mailroom of a securities firm, I got to be good friends with the IT manager. Trying to spend every extra minute I could learning from him. Once I was close to finishing school I was offered a job as a network support person. But I had freinds from school who where very sharp, that ended up working at a grocery store after graduating from this "school". I totally agree that we should stick together and expose all the crooks in this industry we can. | |
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| No matter how you look at or phrase it, it is about money. Vendors and training centers are the one's profiting. When corporations use their "influence" in politics, it is about money. Organizations want quality and proficent workers at the cheapest possible rate. This is especially true in the IT market where people are know to do a lot of job hopping.
They look at it like this, why pay someone X amount of money when they are going to leave between six months and a year.
Now, I do agree with you scamslam, but I am just objectively looking at both sides.
:-) | |
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| To scammed1,
You mean to tell me that some of your fellow graduates who you considered to be sharp, could not even be placed into a help desk/tech support position at the least? Have we not read that these positions are supposed to be in demand and that companies are having a hard time filling these positions?
Even with the schools 97% placement ratio?
Excellent post and thank you for bringing some truth so that lurkers/newbies can at least know how these tech schools and how this industry operates.
Since August 2000, I have diligently scoured the wants ads and job bank sites. I have not seen a speck of evidence that would lead me to believe that the IT industry is sincere in wanting to hire graduates from IT training. What they are crying for and what they are actually doing is a 180 degree opposite.
The great IT shortage is a manufactured myth with these entities to monetarily gain:
1) The vendors: MS, Cisco, Oracle and the other legion of vendors who have hopped on the cert bandwagon.
2) Test centers. Did Comptia really need to raise their prices? Very interesting how they describe increase. They state, "We are improving our test pricing". Maybe my landlord should say that the next time he raises my rent. "We are improving your rent starting next month".
3) Tech schools and academies.
After doing more research, actually this piece of information was right under my nose, are the tech loan operations (scam lending). One of them being run by M$. Create a mythical demand for an industry and reap the financial rewards. The big loser? All of the capable, hungry and enthusiastic students who won't get a job because they didn't "know somebody".
To the IT industry I say this:
"Beggars can't be choosy"
Last but not least. I truly hope that word of mouth really gets around about this ugly situation and the truth of it all.
Peace out
[This message has been edited by scamslam (edited 12-13-2000).] | |
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| Well this is an interesting post.
I agree on you in some points and not in others.
I think the "learning" centers are really in it for the money. Most try to cycle people through in less than 6 months. I think there is no way someone can gain needed experience in that short of time.
The vendors are using it as a marketing ploy, the more people with thier cert the more their name is spread around.
The real reason companies hire out-of-country people is that they get them on some sort of contract so they dont have to worry about them leaving them in 6 months like everyone else.
I dont think there is a shortage of 1.3 million IT jobs. I think the number is half that.
The reason they say this is there is a real shortage of jobs, but an overabundance of "certified" idiots out there.
Right now everyone wants to get in on the IT field, they go get thier certs the try to apply for a job without any real experience. I am sorry it doesnt work like this. How would you like someone right out of Med school to perform open-heart surgery on you. You wouldn't, to companies thier computer system is thier heart.
I have been on some job interviews where over 50 people have applied for an IT position. I sat in the waiting rooms talking to the other people, most of whom are MSCE's. They go around flopping thier certs down like a "measuring" contest and they never get the job because all they did was go through braindumps or just read the books. I always find it real amusing to watch them squirm when they are given basic questions and cant answer it. Some of the questions I have seen them not be able to answer are on subnetting, network service installation, accounts, and other general stuff.
Another reason the field is flooded is the career changers. It seems a lot of people who worked with computers (webmasters, programers, data entry) think that since it was an IT field job that they should be able to jump in to others. This is another big no no. It is like a hairstylist doing brain surgery. Sure they have worked on computers but never in that sense. What is going to happen when the company you are working for is losing 1k an hour in lost productivity. I dont know how many times I have heard of IT people getting fired in the first week because of this or other simple errors they make.
In my opinin if you want to get into the IT field you should do an intership for about 6 months to get some basic experience and start with the basic certs like A+, N+ or MCP. If you want to go for the MCSE you need to build a home lab with about 5 different computers, a hub, and a 2 printers (1 local, 1 network) and see how many differnt configurations you can come up with. That way you wont be the person getting rejected for a job while someone with a lower or no cert gets your job.
In my opinion if someone with a MSCE can't answer the following question they deserve to be flipping burgers
Describe the following: the path that a pdu generated from the desktop takes from itself (on a network, with a hub, switch, and router) to a certain web site and back? Include dns/tcp/ip, wins, osi model in your answer
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| Taqwus,
Thanx for your input. Obviously, you are still young, that is obvious by the naivete of your statements.
You should really follow some of the urls I posted, then, you shall gain more experience working in the corporate realm.
I shall bring remark to one of your comments that I believe is truly idiotic.
You Stated: "The real reason companies hire out-of-country people is that they get them on some sort of contract so they don't have to worry about them leaving them in 6 months like everyone else."
You apparently need to do some deep research on the H-1B situation, and then realize how many people have had their jobs taken away by cheap foreign labor (indentured, overworked slaves).
Do yourself a favor and check out this url to see how much of a scam the H-1B scenario is and how it is being completely abused by corporate America, before "ye stick thy foot in thy mouth".
http://www.faceintel.com
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| Hmm if I had to choose to spend money and train someone to work for 6-12 months for me or a choice to get someone for a few years it is a no brainer who I would choose. Unless you are in business to lose money, I really dont think you would be there long once the stock holders heard what you are doing.
Also, some of the people I have talked to that are on that plan are a lot better than the ones over here. What is wrong with a company getting the most for its dollar.
Most of thoose people are willing to come over here since there style of living is greatly increased.
Also, I have read through the links you posted. Numbers and stats can be modified to any way you want.
The truth is most americans are now lazy.
On one last note the shortage is for qualified people, not just people who are like a chimp and use rote memory to pass a test.
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| The problem is, companies are not willing to give people a try. Sure, there are idiots who brain dump to pass the test and don't know a thing, but some of us got our certs just to get our foot in the door, and are being told that all of our work is meaningless.
I'm reading about companies that are now training non-technical people to become techs because they can't find the techs they need. If I were to go to one of those companies, though, I suspect that I'd be turned down because I am certified, but not heavily experienced. I don't fit their ideal profile. I fit it better than the people they are spending thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars on, with no guarantee that these people will understand the material, let alone stay when they can jump ship for higher paying jobs elsewhere.
I do work at a technical college, part-time (lower level computer courses) and I tell my students right off the bat that getting in, certs or not, is not easy and they will have to pay their dues just like everyone else. Some places do lie, but I am brutally honest up front. I encourage my students to excel, but I let them know that an IT cert is not a guarantee to high paying jobs. Some of us are honest. (And no, I'm not trying to discourage them so I can move into a better job myself. ;-) ) | |
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| One issue is that a lot of people are not willing to start at the bottom and work their way up. Working your way up does not mean that your take a low paying job and after a month or two you are a IT veteran and demand more pay. Believe me, there are people who think like that.
It takes more than a certification to get your foot in the door. You have to think on lines with the corporate setting. You have to give the impression that you are more than a fly-by-night technician who will be around for a long period of time. Otherwise, you will be looked at as a hungry individual looking to break into the IT field. | |
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| I love this story. This is the kind of news that just gives me goosebumps all over.
Check this url out and read about how Micro$oft gets slammed.
http://www.faceintel.com/announcement.htm#December
[This message has been edited by scamslam (edited 12-15-2000).] | |
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| Yeah, I had already heard about this. People need to give Microsoft a break. I am not a cheerleader for Microsoft, but I realize that they are a company and a company's bottom line is to make a profit (translation - make money). Just like any other major coporation. Ford, Coca Cola, etc. Take your pick.
Whether people want to admit it or not, a majority of us would not be pursuing jobs in the IT field. Imagine no Microsoft. We would be using Macs or worst....OS/2. Lotus Notes would be the office suite (No Office or WordPerfect). Microsoft has contributed to IT more than people want to admit. Bill Gates has made a lot of money and I doubt that anyone would not have done the same if they were in his position years go. | |
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| In general, I just wanted to say that all areas of the country have different IT needs, and different amounts of such. If you're a Java guru in Palo Alto, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll have employers knocking on your door when you move to Pittsburgh. Likewise, if you're a networking god somewhere, you may be a face in the crowd somewhere else. So, no I don't think there's a huge general shortage. But I do think some California politicians helped to perpetuate this myth in order to get an influx of cheap labor.
Also, I wish to take exception to Taqwus's first comments. Jumping from being a programmer or webmaster to networking is a jump but it is not a career change by any stretch of the imagination. Most developers don't know how to install a T1 but I guarantee you any developer worth his/her salt knows a lot more about computer and networking essentials then a hairstylist knows about brain surgery. I feel that comment was uncalled for. And I urge everybody posting to these forums to remember that "IT Field" does not necessarily equal "networking". There are many other crucial functions out there. | |
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| Good Thread Scam!!
I also disagree with Taqwus about H-1B. Its my opinion that IT people don't tend to job hop as much as the advocates of foreign labor would have you believe. If "Job Hopping" were so easy to do that would indicate a "real" need for IT workers. The reality in most larger cities is quite different however.
I live in Los Angeles, California. This is one of the largest cities on the planet. Look in the classified section of this towns leading news publication (Los Angles Times) and one thing becomes painfully clear...There is merely a handful of positions at ALL REALMS of IT. I would have to imagine that this would hold true of most larger cities in America.
So I question the ability of people with a "Medium" (5 years or less) to "Entry Level" (Under 1 year of professional experience) to be able to effectively "Job Hop" with any amount of success. Sure in some cases it happens but in my humble opinion not nearly as much as some would have you believe! How can a person "Job Hop" when there are so few jobs to "Hop To"?
I feel the issue of H-1B as well as the hype surrounding the lack of IT jobs has one main objective! In business if you flood the market with a given product that product usually holds a lesser demand than a product that is in less quantity. As demand lowers that products worth lowers along with it. This is the trend I see with IT fields.
1. Create a sense of need...real or imagined for a product or service.
2. Convince the public that this product or service is viable and needs people to maintain it.
3. Convince the public that this is a sought after career with good salaries.
4. Give the public a way to obtain education in that field (charge em a fair coin for it)
5. Keep working on #1
6. Reinforce this need by looking to foreign sources to supply the demand. (Make folks at home think nobody wants or will stay with these high paying jobs)
7. Flood the market with qualified (paid their $ to the system) people.
8. Sit back and watch the salaries for these individuals fall and profits for these companies skyrocket!
Its a simple deal! Look at the biggest money makers in America that are not IT related in nature. You have your Wal-Mart's, McDonalds and other retail chains that are for lack of a better description "large amounts of low paid cattle and a select few reasonably paid herders" The reason for this thinking boils down to two issues
1.Profit
2.Competitive Ability
IT is and never will be any different. Its slanging a product! It has competition! It will do anything and everything to remain profitable! IT is just a smarter widget!
Like Wal-Mart... Microsoft, Intel, AMD and others would love to have 98% of its employees in the "under $50,000" range.
This would allow them to keep prices down to compete as well as remaining profitable.
So get ready folks! The .COM slide is a preview of what's to come in IT! Its seems like its going to get worse before (It may never) get better!
Dave
A+, Sewing+, BurgerFlipping+ | |
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| Great post Phantom-X ---
You stated it in a masterful and eloquent manner. Basically, you told it like it is. Which I've been trying to do across many message boards.
I live in Orange County, California, which is right down the freeway from you, and I scour the Computer section in the classified ads of the LA Times and OC Register on a daily basis. Results: pretty scary. We both live in areas that have many companies in hi-tech. Why so few jobs listed?
Unless my eyes deceive me, I do not detect a plethora of jobs either. But of course, as you stated earlier, there is the 2-5 years of experience prerequisite. A shortage? Comptia? 0 jobs on their job board! You would think that this organization with it's union with the IT industry, would have a bounty of job listings.
Here's the part that boggles the mind, when you read a post or talk to people about breaking into IT, most notably networking, that one must "know people" in order to gain entry into the field. This sounds like some type of exclusive fraternity or something. Geez, what's the critical point here, rubbing elbows with the right people or having the skills that companies are allegedly craving? I mean, are we talking about trying to land a job as an actor in Hollywood, or, trying to obtain gainful employment sitting behind a freaking computer?
At this point do you intend to continue looking for work as a tech? Or are you just going to abandon the idea completely?
Let me know ok.
Take care
I would like to go on record again, saying this:
"MS, Cisco, Oracle and all of the other vendors offering certs for their products are liars, thieves and guilty of fraud." | |
| SlamscamSlam 2000-12-16, 7:09 pm |
| Wow, on the record huh? You're really putting your name on the line there, "slamscam." (Save the drama, it's not necessary.)
quote:
Originally posted by scamslam:
Taqwus,
Thanx for your input. Obviously, you are still young, that is obvious by the naivete of your statements.
You should really follow some of the urls I posted, then, you shall gain more experience working in the corporate realm.
I shall bring remark to one of your comments that I believe is truly idiotic.
Consider this: What percentage of "young and naive" individuals make up your own statistics of unemployed IT talent? I've been told to my face, "let's face it, you're young..." and then watch the hiring manager try to take his foot out of his mouth after that bigoted comment. This prejudice is a more realistic factor for a considerable percentage of unemployed IT talent, than any cloak and daggar conspiracy among major companies. (Save the condescending quips slamscam, that is unprofessional and shows your bigotry.)
REALITY CHECK:
A) It's December and companies are not hiring right now due to finances and other end-of-year issues.
B) The concept behind certifications is valid. Nobody forces people to enroll into tech schools to get certified - these individuals are responsible for doing their own research before jumping into IT. (The fact is that the only thing most people know about IT is that they want to be a part of it... anf do little or no research before making that huge change... nobody is to blame but those individuals.)
C) The testing/training centers ARE in it for money, after all they are a business, the same rule applies as in any business, let the BUYER beware.
D) Cisco, MS, etc does not determine what comapnies want. The fact is (as noted in some of your links) that these companies compose a "wishlist" that usually require somebody have 3-5+ years of experience with Unix, Cisco, Novell, NT, etc etc. People with that much experience are few compared to the number of positions available desiring that expereince... hence the percieved "shortage of talent." Even a good deal of the entry level helpdesk positions require 2-3 years of experience, Unix a plus.
SLAMSCAM: You are too dramatic and flippant to be taken seriously. I've seen your posts on other boards and short of labeling you a narcissistic pseudo-martyr I cannot fathom why anybody would spend that much effort to debunk what is ONE (not the only) VALID (yet not perfect) means to determining an individuals skill and/or knowledge. | |
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| Well, Scamslamscam!
It would seem obvious that you are:
1. Employed
2. Not living in southern California
I agree with your assessment about the "time of year" we are dealing with now. December has always been a tough month for employment.
"Booming IT market" not withstanding.
I do however disagree with you on a few of the issues you proposed.
1. "Cisco, MS, etc does not determine what companies want"
Cisco, MS and others are in fact the very vendors of products that companies use. Not the other way around. This would leave one believing that the sellers of these products know what their customers need! After all if they didn't know their actual needs they wouldn't be selling much product! This is not an unrealistic idea, is it? After all if I were certified by MayTag it would stand to reason that anyone with a mayTag dish washer would seek me rather than someone without the "Cert' from MayTag. This thinking is why people become certified. Just that MayTag does not have 20 certified techs for every appliance that needs repair.
These IT companies however, seem bent on the sheer profit of certifying people. Rather than suppling an honest "Need" or "Demand" in the work force.
This opinion of mine is only reinforced by my job hunting efforts. If an MCSE is willing to earn $10.00 an hour and help Mr and Mrs "everyday" find the power button on their new system, what does that say about MCSE and the job market? It says that every Tom, **** and Harry has an MCSE. It says that for whatever reason too many people got the idea that certification was an avenue to a better life. The reality is that certification value lives mostly with those responsible for doing the certifying.
Who benefits from hyping a shortage of IT workers? IT companies, Schools and certification companies, that's who!
Its simple economics! Not a cloak and dagger mission.
2."The fact is (as noted in some of your links) that these companies compose a "wishlist" that usually require somebody have 3-5+ years of experience with Unix, Cisco, Novell, NT, etc etc. People with that much experience are few compared to the number of positions available desiring that experience... hence the perceived "shortage of talent."
You make the point yourself without even realizing it! HOW CAN A COMPANY HAVE A "WISH LIST" IF THEY ARE IN SUCH NEED???
Answer-THEY DON'T HAVE A REAL NEED!
They are able to pick and choose only because of the over abundance of people looking for that type of work! That and they really don't NEED anyone. They might "want" something but they surely do not "NEED" anything! None of these positions must be "mission critical" because if they were, the company would need to fill it ASAP! As it stands very few if any of these situations exist. Why? There are lots and lots of people that are qualified and out of work. If they had a real need they would be forced to look at people they would otherwise overlook. People like "Career Changers, Older Workers, People new to the field" As it stands, I go to an interview and talk to a 29 year old next to me with better than 6 years working experience, an MCSE and a degree!! He's willing to work for $10.00 an hour! Shortage of experienced workers? I think not!
3. "Even a good deal of the entry level helpdesk positions require 2-3 years of experience, Unix a plus."
Maybe I fell of the Pineapple boat!
The term "Entry Level" has always meant exactly what it sounds like. ENTRY LEVEL!!
Look at any other industry that asks for "Entry Level" people....What do they mean? They mean someone with EDUCATION IN THE FIELD BUT NO PAID WORK EXPERIENCE!
How can one be "Entry Level" and yet poses, as you say, 2 to 3 years experience?
It seems IT land uses a different dictionary than Websters! I think a more accurate definition for their "Entry Level" is
"ENTRY LEVEL....PAY" not entry level in the traditional sense.
Lastly, Why is everyone with a different opinion lambasted with a title like "narcissistic pseudo-martyr"?
I feel his fervor is needed! Too many Lemmings buy into the Hype and will suffer because of it!(myself included) The people I am truly afraid of are those that "Buy into the lies". They must be profiting from, or are ignorant to the underlining truth!
Martin Luther king was labeled a "Martyr" by the very forces he was against! And, he was shot dead for speaking the truth (ok scams not MLK!! but you get my point. Those that like the current trend tend to uphold its reasoning at all costs)
I tend not to take too seriously anyone who is "Unregistered" as it lends itself to a general lack of credibility. (Not enough sack to face up and be seen!)
To SlamScam:
I am still pursuing a job in IT, I went to Earthlink today to apply for a "call Center" job. The line looked like a movie studio was casting for a "Love Making" scene with Salma Hyak! or a Star Wars II preview!!!! Again, no lack of talent in that line. MCSE's, A+ it was alphabet soup big time! Two guys I spoke to have been in IT for 5 or more years! Due to downsizing and the .Com crash they are willing to take anything. And scraps seem to be the only thing around these days!
Not a good time to be a little fish in the shark tank!
D~
[This message has been edited by Phantom-X (edited 12-16-2000).] | |
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| Scamslam, I am just curious to know if you have a degree or any certs. of any kind. Why is it that you are so pissed at the IT field? I know of many who have transitioned to the field because they loved it and they were not experienced. They took entry-level positions and now have good careers. I agree with some of your theories but I am just curious as to what kind of person I am talking to. | |
| SlamscamSlam 2000-12-17, 3:52 am |
| As a matter of fact I am currently unemployed and living in southern California. Additionally I am considered entry level, and I am also facing difficulty finding a job. However, I do not go blaming corporate conspiracies, H1-b Visas, or any other external factors.
At any rate:
A) Yes tech centers are a BUSINESS. They are in business because the concept of certification is a valid one and it happens to be in demand (and if it isn't valid just throw your degree away while you're at it).
Sales reps for these centers are just like any other sales rep, they will tell you what you want to hear to get your business. This is not a new concept. It is YOUR responsibility to research for yourself before you get suckered into anything.
Does this mean that Cisco and MS are out trying to milk every dime out of the IT workforce? Or does it mean that independant training centers want to make a profit? Which is more realistic?
B) Nobody said that the corporate world is perfect. Just because there is this contradiction (which I am frustrated with also by the way) of a huge demand and apparent unwillingness to tap into a valid pool of eager talent (plebes such as you and I) doesn't mean that there is something sinister afoot.
Could it instead, mean that Human Resources departments simply do not understand the IT field and are relying on these "wish lists" to fill positions that they have very little idea about? Is that a more reasonable scenario than the melodrama that Slamscam presents?
Final words:
If your attitude is to blame external factors, then maybe it would be easier to try to change the world instead of working on making yourself more marketable in the field. (Hence the martyr remark.)
I chastise Slamscam for his/her own abrasive remarks. And I truly believe he/she has some sort of agenda. Everybody can believe what they want, and I for one don't personally care who believes what. However, calling people naieve and idiotic in a public IT forum is simply childish and I feel that Slamscam should answer for that.
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| In Scam's defense,
Scam and I live on opposite ends of one of the largest business meccas in the country.
Los Angeles-Orange County!
Both cities combined are home to over 19 million people.
In both cities the IT industry boasts earnings of better than 20 billion dollars a year. The business in OC and LA are constantly being quoted in the news publications as having a "Huge lack" of help. This lack of help is tauted at all levels of IT from "Entry Level" to "Senior Level"
This has given rise to our current problem!
One reads these articles and thinks "Wow, There must be a need not being filled".
You can't walk one city block without seeing 5 "Computer Learning Schools"
A person that is savvy with computers thinks that getting a certification will afford a "foot in the door" to an entry level position.
Truth here is that business really want cheaper employees...not more of them!
So we obtain certification IE: A+ in my case. What we face when job hunting for "Entry Level" work is an over abundance of otherwise "Qualified" persons that are unemployed because of several factors such as,
1. Current Pay (Many were let go because they were making too much. A business can open the door and have a flood of starving talent begging to work for free)
2. Age (same problems as above)
3. Racial or sexual status
4. Many .COM companies and vendors went belly up. As this is ground zero the effect is felt here before the wave moves across the country. Result = Many, many unemployed and qualified people.
So after paying our money to get certified we are left with no more advantage than we had before we were "Certified"
OUR THEME AND PROBLEM!!! WHY GET CERTIFIED IF IT DOES NOTHING FOR YOU?
We don't need A+ to be told 'Why should I hire you when I have 20 over qualified people that want the same "Entry Level" job" If the cert did not matter now it surely won't matter much when we reach that "over qualified" title!
Many tell me "You should move to where the jobs are"
To that I say yes, I could, but is that really an answer? Maybe Scam and I and all the other un or under employed IT people here should move to your town! Just think, The employers would have a field day! They would drop the starting pay and have their pick of the litter! Is that an answer? No!
Similar issues have faced this nation before like.
1. Railroads
2. Steel companies
3. Auto makers
4. Factory workers
In every case above "Unions" were needed to control wages and influx of employment and to stop the outright abuse of American people. Though they themselves are not without problems. The IT industry is strangely immune to these Unions!!??!!
Its a fact that as California goes so does the rest of the country sooner or later. After All.......The Silicon Valley is only 400 miles up the coast...That's where all this stuff starts!!
Will Scam and I ever get work? Sure! Its only a matter of time before we are slaving away as interns somewhere lol! And just think.....after a year or two we qualify as "Entry Level"
D~ | |
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| To SlamscamSlam:
Wow, try saying that ten times fast hehehe.
I agree that Scam should not have Flamed the other fellow. I further agree that Scam's a bit "On Fire" for the issue. No problem with that at all.
To say that HR people are uninformed is silly. Any business that does not understand its staffing needs is doomed! More likely, they are flooded with Resumes and Apps and have the ability to pick and choose from many applicants. Your seemingly wishful thinking only serves to justify your choice of certification expense as you too are without your IT job.
The other companies that can afford to have a "Wish List" are not by definition "Needy" but are able to sit and wait as long as needed until the exact person comes along. The papers headline should read "Companies unable to fill Wish Lists" rather than "Massive shortage of workers in IT field"
As a matter of fact I do think MS, Cisco, CompTIA and others are as you put it "Milking the cow" Why wouldn't they when we offer ourselves up to the slaughter so willingly.
The issue of certification importance will peter out in the next few years with all but the most demanding remaining intact. As colleges are adopting more and more current level corses to combat the loss of revenue from these third party "Boot Camps". More and more you see ads asking only for a "College degree" and or similar experience. Sooner or later everyone dropping their money on these certifications will be going back to school to obtain the "Newest and Best" degree that the industry now sees as De Facto! What good is your cert then?
As a matter of fact I burnt my A+ cert! And now use the ID card for a book mark! I don't carry it now and never will! I have been to better than 50 interviews and in not one instance was I asked to see it or even acknowledged that I possessed it. What's worse is that nobody asks for it as a job qualification! They could give a damn about A+! Hell with everyone showing up with MCSE's for an entry level job why would they?
WHAT DID I NEED IT FOR? WHY DID I WASTE MY MONEY ON IT? I passed it with better than 650 on both tests with zero prep! I didn't need it to prove to myself I know what I'm doing. I got it to prove to prospective employers that I was legit......but they don't seem to care!
I have decided to fabricate a Resume and use industry friends to back it up! I'm going to really put it on thick! When I get in the door I will use my savvy and computer knowledge to close the deal! Hell if telling the truth can't get you in the door a good dose of BS and a tap dance should do the trick. I'll just be the tail waggin the dog!
Then I'll sell a certification for those wanting to be deemed "Master of the BS resume". I'll call it BSR+ and charge $300.00 for it. That, like A+ and 50 cents will get ya a cup of coffee! PLONK!
D~ | |
| TechSavvy 2000-12-17, 7:22 am |
| Formerly known as SlamscamSlam... (silly name wasn't it?)
Phantom, certs are simply one possible component of many to get an interview which would hopefully lead to a job. Nobody promised you a job, they promised a better opportunity to get one... and if you've seen postings on monster or headhunter you will realize that HR does indeed screen by certs unless you have an impressive work history.
I have not been asked about my certs during interviews either. Think about it, what do you expect to say? If it was a qualification for you to get the job, they already know what the cert covers. To talk about it would be pointless. But to lack it may prevent you from ever getting the interview.
I'm sorry you are so bitterly disillusioned Phantom, however how far do you expect an A+ to carry you? I think you are frustrating yourself with extremely high expectations. If YOU bought into somebody elses story that YOU are GUARENTEED a job, who do YOU have to blame?
I have a BSTM, CCNA, Net+, (Will have MCP and A+ by Jan), if you are planning on even taking decent help desk positions you are speaking with your competition. I do know my stuff, and I don't have to lie. I would suggest you stop blaming external factors and focus on making yourself more marketable - honestly. | |
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| Hello Phantom-X,
Very excellent post on page 2. Very well said again. You express yourself with conviction and are obviously acquainted with the "facts" on the cert craze for IT.
About you applying over at Earthlink:
I thinks it's good you brought up the fact that there was a slew of MCSE's and even persons with over 5 years of work experience willing to work for beginner wages. Yes, the great dot com shakeout has begun and will only serve to increase the already saturated pool of cert holders. Is it any wonder that dot coms are falling like dead flies? The very foundation and "new philosophy" on which it was built was flawed to say the least. It is not good for an industry to exclude very qualified segments of the population because they are over a certain age. Their ridiculous method of profile hiring spelled their own doom. Too many 25 year old hiring managers and not enough persons with business savvy as well. 16 to 18 hour work days with promises of vapor wages (stock options) only last for so long before people say, "take this job and shove it". To the dot com industry I say this: you reap what you sow.
I believe that a person in this thread made inquiry as to why I have such a negative view of the industry. How much time do you have =).
Let me start by saying this, I realize that corporate America for the past, present and future will always operate on the slick tenets of "making money". Tell me something I don't know already. Their methods range from a-z, and it will just be re-hashed rhetoric for me to discuss. Work long enough in a corporate environment and you shall see the light, unless, you are completely myopic at this point in your life.
I thought that I had made myself very clear in previous posts on why I think that "IT certification/training" is a bogus scam. Perhaps you should read my prior posts and check out the urls that are there for you to click. Once you have done the reading, come back and be inquisitive at that point and I shall be glad to respond.
I will say this, the IT industry has redefined the word GREED beyond normal corporate greed. They have completely tapped into the vulnerable vein of the population. The method being used is to make the population believe there is an industry with more jobs then people that can fill them, that training is the way.
Here is some brain food for you. Doesn't the IT industry make very clear that if you want to work and succeed in this area of work, that one must me willing and able to adapt to swiftly changing technology? Don't they disdain the attitude of what worked well for me yesterday should work for me today and I shall not accept latest technology? In other words, they make clear that you should be very very flexible and they do not want to admit persons for employment who represent the old way of doing things. They of course, are the movers and shakers of the New Economy and the New Way of doing business.
With this being said, why is it that this industry as whole is so inflexible and short sighted in it's hiring processes? Who are the ones that are being stodgy and not willing or able to adapt? Hmmm?
Here is some information for people who have aspirations about being the next stock holder millionaire. IT industry has masterfully exploited the "Stock Options" promise as a very effective lure to extract super long working hours out of you. Dangling the carrot so to speak. Don't buy into this big lie either. Sure there are some people who have become incredibly rich because of stock options. That window of opportunity has now passed, unfortunately. Now, with the absolute failure of the dot com industry and in general, you may probably end up with absolutely useless paper. Hence, the term "vapor wages". Also, beware of companies who state that they will be going pre-ipo by next year. If you want to work for the promises of tomorrow, get it in writing and have it signed and dated!
An excellent source of information can be obtained from the September 11 issue of Business Week, this issue is titled, "Too much corporate power?" If you wish to question my motivations and validity, please do some research first. Another source of related info can be obtained from the writings of Dr. Norman Matloff. He is the Computer Science Chairperson at The University of California at Davis. He spoke before the US Congress on the IT Shortage Myth and how the supposed shortage is nothing short of pure propaganda and manufactured rubbish.
Knowledge is power
Peace | |
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| Good, More proof that the industry is a joke!
"I have a BSTM, CCNA, Net+, (Will have MCP and A+ by Jan), if you are planning on even taking decent help desk positions you are speaking with your competition. I do know my stuff, and I don't have to lie. I would suggest you stop blaming external factors and focus on making yourself more marketable - honestly."
Wow, all that and a wiffle ball bat!
Spoken like a true believer!
It is however a sad comment on the current state of things. You , having that large can of alphabet soup under your belt are eagerly awaiting that career defining "Help Desk" job.
How pathetic is that?
What's wrong with this picture?
You tell the story out of one side of your mouth and prove what Scam and I are saying out of the other!
How many certs do ya think you'll need to land that glorious Help Desk job? 5? 10? ALL OF EM! It seems that that collection you have isn't cutting it! Still unemployed! Maybe one more.....Then you qualify to listen to "Mary Jane rotten crotch" complain because she used her CD player as a coaster and now its broken! All for as much money as a trainee electrician makes. Except all he needed was to know algebra and have a high school diploma to get his job. He'll have the Union pay for his schooling and in 3 years be making $50,000. You will have spent that on certifications to advance to a job paying $35,000...unless of course you get beat out by the person that has one more "certification" than you do!
D~
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| You guys crack me up, if there are people out there with mcse's who are on the job market, I almost guarentee that 70-80% of em are paper certs. The rest of them are just looking in the wrong places. A company can tell right away if you are a paper cert or have real knowledge. I had no certs when I was hired, but I came in and gave them good solutions to some situations they were dealing with, and I was hired on the spot. Also of course it is who you know, in any industry it is your connections in the field that give you that edge. That is just a fact of life and why people go to college, to build up their list of people they know.
I did not learn one thing from college that pertains to my job and I am in CS, but it gave me a group of people to use as references and contacts. Don't let the system take advantage of you, learn how to take advantage of the system.
Denwin | |
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| Sure there are some bad tech schools out there. To me the training centers are too pricey to afford, so I have taken most all my tests after self-study, using simulation software (specifically CCNA), a couple junior college MCSE courses, and experience at work. However, I did get to attend a Win2K class at a training center, paid for by my employer, and I was impressed by the knowledge of the instructor and the quality of the course.
I would only consider a training center if I absolutely could not get the opportunity to learn in some other way. Not because all the schools are bad, but because I learn better in other ways. AND I'M CHEAP.
When I began in the IT industry nearly three years ago I had earned my B.A. an Associate degrees in Computer Science, and a second Associate degree in Networking Technology near completed. I had four years of experience providing customer service/support on home medical equipment, no certs and little on-the-job, computer support experience. My IT boss hired me because he needed techs that could communicate with our customers, and he figured, based on my continued schooling, that I would be trainable on the technical issues. Of course, it can be difficult to tell one's potential at an interview, but if I hadn't some education, certs or otherwise, I think I'd have had a more difficult time showing him I was up to the job. I was required to get A+ within 90 to 120 days of employment, which I did, so the cert mattered to that employer.
I followed the next few months after finishing the second A.A.S. with MCSE,some additional MCP, and three of the CompTIA certs. A few months ago I landed a job with another company making about $12,000 more. I was asked about my certs at that interview.
So, again, it helped make a difference. I continue with the certs to keep learning and keep an edge for later opportunities.
I detailed the above to state a couple points. If you don't need to attend the training centers to learn, then don't. Get educated any way you can to stay marketable. And don't think that only the "techie" skills will get you the job, both my positions have involved lots of customer interaction, so "people" skills are just as important.
Phantom, only an A+ cert isn't going to levitate your resume to the top of the pile. Particularly if the job market full of MCSEs and CNEs. Think about skills you've used on other jobs that will apply to IT; it's more than just replacing hardware.
I long suspected the IT shortage is exaggerated. MS and Cisco products are widely used in the industry, and if I have to get certified to learn about them and impress an employer, like it or not, I will do it.
I am a supervisor in my new position, and though I haven't had to interview anyone yet, but in the future I will. Because I have worked to get educated and certified I will be more biased when I consider prospective employees that have those same qualifications, but experience, personality, professionalism, and job stability will make a difference as well. It isn't that the certs are the end all, but they serve as another tool of measurement.
I've been called the "paper tech" and told "college isn't worth it". Ironically(?), the co-workers that have told me that have been both uneducated and only A+ certified, if that, going home every night to sit in front of the TV, while I was going home to study some more chapters for a test. I've left those techs behind for a better job, and hopefully a couple more years of experience and certs and I'll have some better opportunities.
Obviously, whether there is or is not an IT shortage, I benefit by keeping myself more marketable than others in the industry. If nothing else I learn to do my job better and impress my current employer, so if they have to decide to let someone hit the pavement, I have a better chance of staying.
Cheers to TechSavvy and Bobby Digital. I agree with most of your points.
Two things about unions. 1) In the past, unions served a needed purpose, but now they seek to separate employees from there money as quickly as the any fast-talking salesman at one of the bad training centers. 2) The employees I've worked with in the past that cried the loudest to start a union were the ones that did nothing to progress in their careers, and they were also late daily, regularly in trouble for breaking rules (and not because they were "fighting for a cause", theft and not doing the job you are taking money to do is not "fighting 'The Man'"), and wanted everyone to be paid equally for the same job, (though they were more than willing to slack off while others took up their slack). They only wanted a union because HR was building a very thick file of paperwork about very reasonable problems in preparation for their termination.
Quit the whining. Most of us have been in the shoes you find yourself in now, and may be in them again. I worked for years to get to the position I am in now. Specifically, I sent out tons of resumes for nearly two years to finally find an IT job. I have no pity for anyone whose wants to cover all vendors and training schools with blanket blame for their own inability to find employment. Take responsibility for what you can control.
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| ROFLMAO,
Yeah Scam!
I wonder how Bill Shatner is feeling right now. His stock options in "Priceline.Com" that were worth over 25 million are today worth a mere $250,000.
The current stock price is around $3.00 per share. We could almost "Name our Price" for its stocks. BAHHH HAHAHAHAHAHA!
The new craze is .comeonmanwherezmycash! | |
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| Scamslam, you still never answered my question as to if you have a degree or any certs. | |
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| Right on the nail head again Phantom-X!
You commented on some fellow who has this impressive collection of certs:
"BSTM, CCNA, Net+, (Will have MCP and A+ by Jan)"
Phantom-X, perhaps this fellow cannot find employment because he didn't know someone working in industry? Perhaps he possesses the right aptitude, skills, mindset, resume, proper interviewing attire and attitude? Perhaps he is even willing to start from the bottom and take a pay cut like so many hungry and enthusiastic people are willing to do? But, he does not know the right people to help him gain entry into an industry that is crying and moaning for people who have "the skills".
Exclusivity seems to be the prevailing hiring method doesn't it? What more does this poor guy need to do to obtain employment? As you stated earlier, does he need to plunk down more of his hard earned coin for more certs to scratch and claw his way towards the top of the heap? What's next for this fellow? MCSE, I-Net+, CNA, CNE, CCDA, Oracle 8i, CIW?
Maybe this fellow should work for free to gain experience while he has bills to pay?
Sorry people, if an industry is truly sincere about it's need for people with "the skills", they would not be so exclusive and narrow minded in it's hiring process. I don't buy into their garbage lies, not for a second. An industry that is sincere about wanting to train and hire people with potential, would NOT require as the norm, 2 to 3 years minimum experience. I was just wondering how many people have spent their time, money and emotion to get "the skills", to only disappear into the collective void, while the vendors got fatter on their cash?
I think that the fellow with the impressive collection of certs is the very typical case scenario and not atypical. In other words, he bought into the hype and has been had.
Once again, I have scoured the computer section of the classified ads in the Sunday papers, as I have intensely for the past 4 months and for the most part, the past year. What a joke. Only in this industry have I noticed that 99% of their requirements require experienced ONLY. You will know that when a segment of business is truly and sincerely in need of trained people, they will only require that you have knowledge of A, B and C. This opens the door of opportunity for persons with only school based experience. The proof is in the pudding, IT industry is not willing, by being very rigid, inflexible and very exclusive in its narrow hiring mindset. Obviously, evidence support my claims.
Phantom-X, what does this mean when an IT shop requires 2 to 3 years experience for an entry-level help desk position? Does this mean that they want 2 to 3 years of experience but only want to pay entry-level wages? My oh my, how picky they can be. A shortage?
For other eyeballs that have read this post. Save your time and your money if you want to work in IT. Pursue a career with an industry that truly has open doors of equal opportunity to gain entry, that does not use absurd hiring profiles, that does not ask for you to attain certs to get your foot in the door, then slams the door on your foot when you apply.
Obviously, only IT can do this because there is NOT a shortage of available talent, but an overabundance of experienced people mixed in with fresh-outs. This is why I despise this industry and have great contempt for them. They are the only industry that continually states there are hundreds of thousands of unfilled positions just waiting to be filled. I've done my research to back my claims, is there anyone here that can provide evidence that I am not correct? If you can, then I will stand corrected.
Peace
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| Take it from my ecxperience, you DO NOT want unions in the IT industry. You think it is hard getting in now, wait until you have a union. I used to work for a company and be part of a union. Unions have their pros and cons, but the cons out-weigh the pros.
Now do not get me wrong because I am not trying to flame anyone, but after reading several threads it sounds as if it is more about a couple of disgruntled IT people than just the ways of the IT industry. You don't just go to Hollywood a become a actor/actress overnight. You don't walk into a hospital and say that you are a doctor and then start operating on people.
Like I stated in an earlier thread, it is all about the MONEY. Period. If you do not understand the corporate bottom line you are not going to make it.
From my experience with some of my classmates and former co-workers, they do not realize that you have to start somewhere. Just because you are certified does not mean that you automatically get a high salary. Some people may strongly disagree with me, but adding more certifications to you resume does not give you more experience. Seems to me that some people (not all) are spending more time trying to get certified instead to trying to get experience. As they say, you have to crawl before you can walk.
I have also noticed that a lot of people do not know how to network and how to follow up with a resume. Just because you mailed or e-mailed a resume you automatically get called for an interview. Several hundred people have also done the same thing. You have to make yourself stand out. Having five to ten certifications does not make you stand out if you do not have the experience.
[This message has been edited by Bobby Digital (edited 12-17-2000).] | |
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| Hi there crazyone,
You asked me:
"Scamslam, you still never answered my question as to if you have a degree or any certs."
What is that question relevant to? Are you asking me this question because maybe you feel that if I DON'T have a degree or any certs, that I would not be qualified to express my disdain for the IT industry and it's certification/training scam as a whole?
I do not believe it is necessary to provide that type of information in my posts. Every time someone does this:
John/Jane Doe
a+, net+, mcse, cna, cne, ccna
He/She is doing exactly what the vendors want, especially on your resume. It helps to promote their company name. The cert craze serves dual purpose; it floods the market that doesn't need to be flooded, it already is, and, it provides virtually free marketing for the greedy vendors. See the big picture yet crazyone?
I have done my research to back my claims and have posted urls. If you would like to debate with me, please do some research to back whatever you have to say. At that point, I will be more than happy to answer any question(s) you may have.
Take care | |
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| Scamslam, I was wondering if you could name one field where it isn't who a person knows and their ability to network among peers, that gives them an edge in the industry? Of course a person can't get a ton of paper certs, have no experience, know no one in a company, and expect to get a job instantly. The people who get the good jobs have degrees and know people. And that first person will eventually get a job too, but he will have to look a little harder.
Denwin | |
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| Scamslam, in a quick defense of crazyone, what is your purpose in posting threads? Now, I do agree that listing all your certifications at the end of a thread is silly. I personally would like to know what your true intentions are.
Like I have said before, if you have a problem with certifications, don't get certified. Plain and simple. And don't believe the hype that you cannot find a IT job without a certification(s) because you can. I did and I know plenty of people who did also.
Now you might ask if I am certified or pursuing certification and the answer is yes. I am working on a certification, but I am doing so to enhance the two years of experience that I have gained. I will have an AAS in Computer Networking Technology in May.
So you see, I started in IT without a degree OR certification. Now I am not saying that if I can you can too, but I am saying that you have to have the right attitude. | |
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| Bobby,
Your right about the Union's! They are a two edged sword! But in many industries in the past they played a big role in insuring people were treated fairly. Today however, If a company is too pressured by employee wages or rights they simply move their operation out of the country! (Intel is a big player that does this!)
As for the part about "Its just a couple of disgruntled people" I only say that so far 3 of us in LA-Orange County are on this board. 2 of us are unhappy and 1 isn't. ALL THREE ARE UNEMPLOYED!! ALL THREE!!! All three have been looking for work for a long time! A fluke? I think not!
Everyone here can't seem to understand that we are unable to get work, not because we aren't willing to start at the bottom or get paid less. We would take just about anything! But with so few jobs and so many people fighting for them it becomes a mute point! How can it be our "Poor attitude" or "Lack of professional attire" or even a "lack of ability " or lack of "certifications" and "experience" when you apply for a job and you never get even as much as a phone call? I think after the first 200 Resumes roll in these HR people just shred the rest!
Sure, Cisco, CompTIA and even MS didn't promise us a job. But they did sell us and the business world on the idea that people that are certified are the "employee of choice" over those without them. If the industry is not scamming us then why is it that there are more people getting certified at all levels of the chain then there are jobs for those people? Why am I applying to "Entry Level" jobs that pay little when "Moe many Certs" is in line in front of me because he can't get work with all his experience either? People the very industry says there is a lack of are opting to scrub floors and compete with me! Why? BECAUSE ITS HYPE! NO LACK OF QUALIFIED HELP! If there were a true void in the IT market I would not be seeing these people at these "Entry Level" jobs! And those of us that fit the "Entry Level" definition by other industries would be given a chance! As it stands we are not.
But this is California, and after all things do tend to happen here first before spreading out to the rest of the country!
So maybe in your town a person with 4 years experience and an A+ can get an "Entry Level" job. Here one needs a PH.D. to obtain that same work. And he won't be alone in the line!
So yeah maybe a certification or 20 is valid for padding the resume. In California, in order to obtain this level one must first prove they are gainfully employed in another field (or live with mom and dad) to afford the cost and time required to qualify and start at the bottom.
We are not lazy and shiftless!! We are not dullards with no education that get shunned because of our poor over all "Vibe" We are but 3 in an ocean of duped, unemployed individuals that have been disenfranchised by an industry that stands to profit form the certification hype and the over abundance of lemmings clamoring for their scraps!
D~ | |
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| Scamslam, I am not trying to debate with you. I find some of your points to be interesting. I have researched also. I feel it depends on what part of the country you live in. Yes, I do see the "big picture." The reason I ask about your certs. or education is because if you are one that has many certs., education, and experience and yet has been shunned, I am lot more apt to listen to what you say. If you are someone with a high school diploma and like an A+ and expect the big bucks then I have to wonder. That is the sole reason I ask. It is not to put you down or argue. For all I know you can be an eigth grader who reads a lot. Do I think that? Hell no!! Do you see my point? Oh, I do totally agree with the point that this seems to be the only industry that wants experienced people. How are people supposed to get experience? That is the point why people try to get jobs. | |
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| "disenfranchised" Does this mean when you apply for a job, and someone does not call you, you can cry out, "I've been disenfranchised" and they should take a second look and maybe hire you? Again I ask, what makes you us any more special than any other job, that we would think we should automatically get 1st dibs on everything. We have to fight for our in into the company just like any other person fighting for another job. Certs are like minors in college, they are nothing without the major. I think that if you cannot find a job in the place that you live, then there is a pretty big world out there where you can and will find one.
Denwin | |
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| I post here to show those unwitting people that they are not alone! Or to cause pause in, and maybe make them take a real look at the situation.
Everyone that comes here is further hyped by certifications and the "Lots of unfilled jobs" fluff!
We are simply trying to show the other side of the coin! Maybe someone makes a better informed decision with regards to career choice. Maybe not. If I cause pause in one person and prevent them from taking a route of action that will upset them when they learn the reality of the issue, My rants are worth it!
D~
[This message has been edited by Phantom-X (edited 12-17-2000).] | |
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| I can see where you are coming from, and agree on some of it. I truthfully wish all those people that are taking these certs because they feel this is a great industry to get rich quick, would just back off, and stay in their original fields. Because it waters down the impression people have of people like myself and many on here that truly love working with computers and technology and have a quest for knowledge more then money.
Denwin | |
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| Amen Denwin,
However as long as the business world and the media keep hyping IT fields as "Lots of money on the table and nobody to take it" we will be dealing with these "get the cert and get rich quick" people.
I am truly into IT for the love of it. I have a career that pays the bills. I learn everything I can get my hands on because I like it. Not because I think I'll get rich quick. Its pretty obvious that getting rich quick is not going to happen. I would just like to see people working at the level they deserve rather then being undersold because of a huge hype machine!
D~ | |
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| You hit it dead on the target Denwin. A large majority f people are getting certification(s) to enter IT for the money.
I spoke with a recruiter who once told me that he ask prospective candidates what they liked about computers and he said most of them cannot give an answer. Those are the ones that he doesn't give a second thought to because they know that they are only in it for the money and will most likely leave if something better comes around.
This is true whether they want to admit it or not. If the average high salary was around $40,000, 1)there would not be a whole lot of people trying to enter the IT field and 2)there would not be as many certifications. Think about it. | |
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| I understand what you are saying, but there are some of us who love computers and who are studying because we love them. So far, none of my efforts at learning about PCs and networks have paid off. I am already in the IT industry, yet I am stuck in a job that pays well, but which uses an antiquated language (COBOL) to do some very dull things. Unlike some, I had no real illusions about what certification could do for me, but it is unfair to assume that all who are working towards certs are in it for the money alone. I would actually take a pay cut if I could get a job that I enjoyed, but that's not always as easy as it seems. Strictly speaking, I might be called a paper cert, because my experience at networking is fairly limited as it has been restricted to the sort of homebrew net that I could muster up at my house in my spare time. But I can assure you, it is not from lack of trying. | |
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| We don't do it for the money alone, but we sure do it for the money as well. I don't know about you, but I have a wife and twins on the way, a mortgage and 2 cars that I have to pay for. I do not work because I enjoy it more than anything else: I do it because I have to. I have a great job, don't get me wrong, but I'd much rather stay home with my wife and kids and hang out all day than going to the grind every day!
As for Certs, yes they pay better. I got a $15,000 raise when I completed my first MCSE, and I expect about the same by the time I have completed the 2nd one.
I also notice that the only ones who say that certs don't mean a thing are those who don't have any... amazing, huh?!?
------------------
Freak, MA, M.Ed., Net+,I-Net+, MCP+I, MCP2000, MCSE, MCT
ICQ: 100744839
http://www.mcsefreak.com
Industry News - Free Prep Tests - Study Guides - Exam Drill - Choices - Forum
http://www.WebMaineacs.com
Web Hosting - web design - Web Strategies - Networking - hosting from only $8 a month! | |
|
| umm, who said we did not have certs? Maybe we just don't feel the need to tell everyone who is in sight what certs we have. I am not saying everyone that goes for certs is in it strictly for the money, I was just saying that a growing number are. and I do not like that trend. I understand needing that paycheck as well as the next guy, but i just cannot respect those that go get where they are by using dumps and faking knowledge on certifications.
Denwin | |
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| Randy
"Because it waters down the impression people have of people like myself and many on here that truly love working with computers"(my quote from above)
I believe that I would be including people like yourself in this list. You are not someone I have a problem with.
Denwin | |
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| I know what you mean. I need to have a job that pays a relatively decent wage, but money isn't the only reason I'm in the field. What was being referred to I reckon was the ones who don't give a rat's arse about computers, but who are attracted by the money as a primary motivation. I can't really relate to that as I have to like what I am doing to be much good at it. | |
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| Whhhewwww!!
You there Phantom-X? Just got through checking out the jobs over at Dice. Every single help desk/tech support job I looked at required at least 2 years of experience.
Last time I spoke with an instructor at the local cisco academy, she stated that companies were starved for persons to hire into help desk positions. Numbers don't lie, but the IT industry sure does. Have they ever heard of training competent graduates? Or, have we exposed the IT shortage for what it is? Seems like we have, haven't heard a peep to refute our facts.
Looks like a jungle out there!
Peace
Scamslam
[advertising space available here for vendors] | |
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| You're all correct...It is a game, just as everything in this country is. From certifications to politics to finding the right job, etc.. But you have to know the rules of the game. I've been in this industry since 1985 and I never needed a cert to prove anything, the only reason I have them now is for "game pieces" only. The certs didn't make me work better or faster, that only comes from hands on exp. and nothing less. If you don't have hands on then get it, then you'll be in a better position. I don't care how many books you read or classes you take. Granted, the books are good reference materials but without hands on you have nothing. I know plenty of tech support managers who only hire certified techs because the managers themselves got thier job because of a relative or friend, they hire the cert techs because they themselves don't know much about the inside of a PC, they figure if you're certified and you screw up, the blame falls on you. But if you're not certified, upper mgmt will get on the manager because he hired a non-certified tech. It's all about C.Y.A. (Cover You're A$$).
Just as any other industry, you have to play by the rules or get out. Don't expect glamour and glory because you're a network admin, don't forget there is someone behind you who wants your job, and they will play the game to get it.
Bottom line: know your sh*t, stay focused and stay on top of your game.
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| Hi there jprego,
You stated:
"Just as any other industry, you have to play by the rules or get out. Don't expect glamour and glory because you're a network admin, don't forget there is someone behind you who wants your job, and they will play the game to get it."
Thanks for helping to bring this to light. The IT industry IS like any other industry, literally. Statements like yours help to discredit the Great IT Worker Shortage. IT claims to be in dire need for skilled workers, but yes, it is a game. You admitted it straight up. It is about dollars and name branding on peoples resumes. Greedy vendors using the unsuspecting population, vendors get free advertising on peoples resumes, that's what the whole situation equates to.
I wonder how it will take for the people to see this is one of the greatest marketing scams ever conceived?
political payoffs = mythical shortage = more money for vendors = depressed IT wages = no jobs for grads
Scamslam
[advertising space available here for vendors] | |
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| Why would you ever assume that the IT industry was different from other industries? I do not understand your argument, it seems to me like something that has always been a given and not any secret. Of course they are gonna ask for two years of experience, that is not much, you can get that by volunteering at high school/college helping with their computers. So what if they say there is a huge cry for workers, in parts of the country I can tell you there really is a need. Now maybe not where you are, but maybe you'll just have to look elsewhere.
Denwin | |
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| Not to offend anyone, but it sounds to me that more time is spent trying to find reasons they do not have IT jobs instead of spending that energy to find a job. Stop making excuses. To be blunt, if you have that big off a problem with the IT field, choose another career.
Scamslam, you never really answered my question on your true intentions and purposes for your posting(s). Yes, you do make some good and valied points, but it seems like you are on a negativity crusade against the IT industry. It seems like you do not understand the way Corporate (Capitalist) America works. Like some indicated, this is a game. If you do not know how to play you will never make it. | |
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| I see what you are saying, but it can be rather frustrating at times, especially when you're trying your best. I doubt that changing fields would help much. Personally, I think it's a conspiracy started by the KGB, but then again I'm kinda weird. | |
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| The KGB huh? Heh, heh, heh:-)
Believe me, I know it can get frustrating. A person has to display the same enthusiam and aptitude for computers when searching for a job.
Just my opinion... | |
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| I agree, but fixing computers is a heck of a lot more fun than interviews! 
| |
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| True. True. Unfortunatly, you have to go through the interview to work on the computers. | |
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| Hey gang I have to admit that you guys are on the money concerning the Myth of IT positions or Tech jobs. Like I've stated before I have been putting out close to 50 resumes a day without even one interview with a 3.94 avg. in a Tech school, I am in transition due to military downsizing how technical can I get if I was'nt exposed to the changing technology advancements while in the military for 10yrs. I am currently enrolled in an Certified Network Administrator program,searching for at least a help desk position. Mind you that we are getting alot of on hands not just theory or book lectures. Franky I'm gettin burnt out just applying over the internet at the various websites. If the IT field is hurtin so much then why hav'nt they called a sharp student such as myself if you're really short. All I get is at least 2yrs experience but how am I going to get it without even given a chance? | |
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| I know how you feel. A lot of us are in the same boat, but persistence will pay off. Especially with the military background and hands-on experience something will turn up I am sure. One thing also, though. Try to send in paper resumes as well, and possibly contacting directly the type of companies that you may want to work for. I reckon these people get soooooo many e-resumes that they may seem like wallpaper after a while. A more aggressive approach may be necessary. As a matter of fact, I think I may have to actually start following my advice with respect to this one!
Best wishes. | |
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| Thanks for replying, I just wanted everyone to know that I am not B---ching or moaning, But that I am in the hunt to land something in the IT field. I wonder do recruiters or temp agenicies read examnotes.com? If they would they would find the so called techs that they are looking for. Believe me I'm pounding the pavement sending out resumes like crazy, scouring the net @ every .com job post there is. My resume in class was an "A" was told by instructor," this is what got me in, this is what they want to see to get you in ". It all starts with skills. | |
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| ScamSlam:
Dude, you really backed out of the "what cert's / degrees have you attained?" question. It sounds to me like you have none.
If you do, then fess up. People would surely take you more seriously if, say you were a CCIE and couldn't get a job.
Are you an A+ who is trying to get a 50-60K Network Admin job?
I'll be glad to tell you what certifications I have attained. I am an MCSE and a CCNA, who is working on the CCNP. I have passed the Remote Access exam and am working on the Switching test. After the CCNP, I will take the specialization exams because they cover some great topics and are covered on the CCIE Written...my ultimate goal.
I have done quite well in the networking field in just two years. In two more, I will be a CCIE and will make big dollars AT THAT TIME. I make 36K right now and don't EXPECT more than that. I have to earn it first.
Do you say the same before bitching about the IT field? | |
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| quote:
Originally posted by kwftide:
ScamSlam:
I am an MCSE and a CCNA, who is working on the CCNP. I have passed the Remote Access exam and am working on the Switching test. I make 36K right now
You make 36 grands with your certs? The market must be different where you are. Around here, if you have those qualifications, you make at least $50K. And I don't live in a big town either: only 60,000 people. It's not like I live in New York or anything!
Funny thing about big cities: I could go to Boston right now and make $200,000 a year... but I would not be able to afford to RENT a house similar to the one I now OWN
------------------
Freak, MA, M.Ed., Net+,I-Net+, MCP+I, MCP2000, MCSE, MCT
ICQ: 100744839
http://www.mcsefreak.com
Industry News - Free Prep Tests - Study Guides - Exam Drill - Choices - Forum
http://www.WebMaineacs.com
Web Hosting - web design - Web Strategies - Networking - hosting from only $8 a month! | |
|
| Well Freak,
Guess what? Its coming EAST! It starts here (California) and moves into the other regions of the country.
I agree that Scam should be able to find "Worthy" work with those credentials.
Truth be told he's "Joe Everyguy" here! Sad but true. That being said the only way to get your foot in the door is to "Know" someone in the biz! Sure that's pretty much true of all fields of business but with IT in California its PARAMOUNT! Heck without an "In" your F'd!!
Well, I found my "In" and today got a job!! Don't everybody "I told you so" all at once!
I got it through a friend of a friend. Without having this connection I would be S.O.L. It pays right for my current level of experience (Experience in everything!! not just IT) and looks to be a straight up company!
Three others were hired too! Two with full MCSE's and one with 5 tests done and working on 6th. One is 40 and has better than 8 years experience in network admin. One other was a Level 2 support tech for Earthlink for three years. The last one is a UCLA grad with BS and MCSE!
All this to make $30,000!
(And all of us had inside people.....every last one!!)
Am I stoked? Heck yes!! I feel sorry for these other guys because they are being undersold BIGTIME!
To morale to this story?
Having experience and lots of certifications is good and all but unless you know the "Secret Handshake" in Cali your nothing!
Scam!!! I MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING FOR YOU!!! I HAVE A CONNECTION THAT'S MOVING TO ORANGE COUNTY! HE KNOWS A TON OF IT PEOPLE! We need to figure out how to exchange E-Mail without posting on the board (Ok 95% of everyone here is "Good People"! Its the other 5% I don't want mail bombs from) I think I have a person that's "Third Party" and works on this site. I will ask that person if we can use them to get "Hooked up"
Peace
D~ | |
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| ScamSlam:
PhantomX has contacted me and asked me to get you to e-mail me, so that I can e-mail you his e-mail address.
He is worried about posting his e-mail address on the board, and quite frankly so am I, but mine is easily accessible anyway.
Please e-mail me at traceyrosenblath@examnotes.net if you are interested in exchanging e-mail addresses with PhantomX. | |
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| Phantom-X:
When you say "it's coming East", what exactly does that mean? Sure the Dot Com's are thinning the herd but that doesn't mean companies will suddenly begin scrapping their networks in favor of hand delivered memos. Are they also going to start using rotary dial phones again too?
I'm not trying to attack you, but there are big holes in your logic. You live in a "Dot Com" region and you are feeling the heat with the recent shakeup. Also, I know many have flocked out there like would be actors heading for Hollywood, hoping to strike it rich in the IT mines.
It just isn't that way in the rest of the country. WE try to work for companies of all shapes and sizes, not just the Earthlinks of the world. Are you telling me there are no VARs in LA? They always need people and they give a wide variety of experience. No, I think most want to work for some huge company as the IT Director after just attaining the MCSE from Braindumps.
I started out at a local university pulling cable, troubleshooting the phone system, and providing desktop support. I studied in the evenings and it paid off with a job at a small reseller. Now, it isn't easy to gain entry into this field in Alabama or anywhere else...that much is very true. But I was willing to drive 110 miles a day (still am) to work in Selma (a very small town) so I could gain experience while I continued to learn at night. It's called sacrifice and I am still making it.
That's all it takes in any field of endeavor and it usually pays off in the long run. I don't expect more than 36K right now because this market won't support more salary than that for my experience. However, that will soon change with more Cisco experience and the CCNP. The point is, I am working toward a long range goal not immediate gratification. The greatest thing about this field is you can be considered Senior Level after 5-7 years. But 5 years doesn't mean 5 months! | |
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