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Home > Archive > General Discussion > December 2000 > Don't take this wrong.....
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Don't take this wrong.....
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| First off let me say a few things:
1) I really dig this site and it's helped a lot.
2) I really dig the folks who are supportive and friendly here as well
3) I really dig the articles that people submit.
BUT....
Why do we always go back to the same old thing about "paper" certs and so on? In now way is this meant to offend anyone, and I certainly enjoy the articles, but isn't the crux of this site and most of the other sites that offer forums and braindumps based on the same thing people are preaching against? Passing the Exams???? Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but it seems like it's ok if we post questions since this is a 'free' forum, but don't pay for it at a training facility or bootcamp.(?) The same could be said for Universities...How much 'hands on' training does one really get in college?
Now before someone blasts me over this, I'll admit, my college degree is not in computers. But I recall most of what I did in college was read a thick book (That I payed WAY too much for), write pages of notes during lectures, and take 3 or 4 tests for my grade. A few years later, I had a degree. Seems to parallel studying for a certification exam a little.
I believe the intention of bootcamps are to get folks with experience and money to sign up for an express train to certification land (and companies hopefully will pay the high cost for their employees). Should you go if you've never dealt with a network or client/server scenario? Heck No! You're right - you can't learn it in a weekend.
I went to an MS training school for A+ and MCP and have mixed feelings now that I'm done. I think it was good because it was a very flexible schedule, and it helped me get my confidence up. Will I go back for further certs? Probably not. The whole deal was I wanted to switch careers and kept getting the whole catch 22: "Companies are so desparate they'll train you....." "Sorry Ed, you don't have any experience." So I got A+ and got an entry level help desk job.
To wrap this up, what I think is happening is we now spend our time worrying about certifications being watered down because of folks just scoring well on tests, and how this will drive down salaries, and how it will make jobs harder to get....It just sounds to me like people are buying into the "Get a Cert, Make $50K" line. I'd love to make more money, but I also understand that I needed to get into the industry to get that "experience" everyone talks about.
But the main point of my thread is that you need to focus on what you think is best, and if you're dedicated to learning, do just that. Learn as much as you possibly can. Get a certification or two or twelve and WORK HARD toward your goals. There will always be demand for qualified people - there will always be certs - there will always be companies making money off of YOU!
Thanks for letting me speak and if you're upset, I'm sorry!
Peace all!
Eddie
A+ | |
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| Freedom of speech!
People need to know that a certification is to improve their technical skills, is not for a job. But now the meaning of certification is change. People do it for entry and good on resume(2 stars).
Then many people are not having actural handon experience and unable to perform the assignment. Many company was mad about why can they perform if they had the Certification. After one and one..... after
"Paper Cert" is out on the market.
We can not stop it until people really thinking of knowing or love what they did.
IT is hot, huge and un-control.
You want it and i want it, too.
But at the end. ONLY few will be leave.
[This message has been edited by Kasor (edited 11-22-2000).] | |
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| Bravo, well said and well done.
This is one of points that I've been trying to get across. I recently came across the Oct. 31 issue of Microtimes and was astounded by the number of IT training centers that are just in the southern california area now, way more than what I orginally presumed. The saturation that will be occuring, if not already, will serve to depress IT wages. The market is so flooded at this point but the companies still contend that they cannot find people.
Their bold headlines include; No computer experience necessary, Make $50k a year, Get the skills today get a job tomorrow, Get your MCSE, companies need Net Admin., By the year 2005, there will be 1.3 million IT jobs available, Get your Cisco CCNA, then get hired right away...etc
What they don't mention is that 99% of the graduates must start at the bottom of the rungs, that means no net admin. position out of the gates. Then the graduate must contend with trying to even get their foot in the door.
This industry as it stands now is raking in huge profits for themselves and as well for the names of the companies they offer cert training for. The training for this field is unlike any other that I have ever seen and is not like traditional ways to improve your skills in that;
a) the training centers use flat-out deceit and lies
b) training centers are purely concerned with profits to be gained. Obviously, they are opened by entrepreneurs who see this as a hot ticket and wish to ca$h in.
c) "Trying" to get your foot in the door seems to be a common struggle for graduates in relation to companies that constantly lament on how difficult is is to find trained people.
d) There is the consistent theme that ones odds are increased for landing a job if they are properly networked with the right people. Really? Just what are they seeking, someone who rubbed elobows, or someone who has the apptitude and the skills?
e) the hiring process set forth by companies is very very selective. The criteria they use is almost surreal in that it is mostly based on age and pure economics. In other words, once one obtains the skills that are required, the playing field thereafter is not a level one.
f) It appears that MS, Cisco and Comptia and have no concerns regarding the lies that are perpetuated by the cert craze. Matter of fact, this situation is fantastic for their own marketing agendas.
I am still doing more research and am getting closer to opening up a web site that will help to serve in providing information to help potect the people and their vital interests.
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| eheinz:
I am going to make this one post in defense of my article on certification bootcamps. Once again, in threads like this, it is my new policy to only post once in the thread, and not return to it again unless something is directed at me, or I feel that it is 100% necessary to jump in and defend myself.
1. The articles to date have not all been about paper certs as you stated in your post. To date, there is only one article I have written for this particular site that was directly about paper certs and that was the one on braindumps.
2. The A+ article was talking about the need for hands-on experience.
3. The recent Certification Bootcamp article was written about the Bootcamps as a warning to newbies not to waste their money.
4. You mentioned in your post that that this site, because it offers forums, is against what the articles are saying. You refered to braindumps in this statement as well.
ExamNotes does not condone the use of braindumps. Nor is a forum, a braindump. It is an opportunity for those who are working toward their certifications to communicate with others in the same position, and assist each other with problems.
5. You completely lost me in your statement about posting being okay in a free forum, but not going to a bootcamp. I am not quite sure what you were saying here, again the article was as a warning to newbies about the bootcamp experience.
6. In reference to your post, one can get a great deal of hands on in college or in a training center. I spend 5 hours a day getting hands-on experience at the training center I attend, and am allowed to do just about anything I want to the system, and the network. The school's policy, is that the easiest way to learn is to make mistakes, and we are given every opportunity to do so.
7. You have stated that newbies should stay away from the Bootcamps and that only well seasoned professionals should even consider that route. I stated that exact same thing in the article, but you must have overlooked it.
8. You stated that the only reason we are worried about paper certs is because of people scoring high on tests and salaries going down.
In all honesty, I score very high on all of my examinations, without the use of braindumps.
My worry, has nothing to do with salaries, it has to do with the fact that I do not want to work next to someone who is making the same amount of money as I am, but who does not have a clue how to add new users, or how to set Subnet Masks.
Eddie, you have not upset me in the least, but I wanted to stress to you that the focus of that particular article was directed at the Certification Bootcamps, more as a warning than anything else. It was more about the fact that our certifications are becoming too comercialized as more and more companies jump on the certification bandwagon.
The article was also intended to show that employers are aware of these Bootcamps and are skeptical of the graduates. I mentioned this in the article, and I am suprised that you didn't notice it.
Remember folks, in an interview if an employer asks about how you obtained your certification, it is always better to mention your year or two of studying, than to mention that you studied your butt off for two weeks.
Certification Bootcamps are a hot issue right now, and I wrote about them. I have always tried to stay current with the articles.
And once again, all articles are approved by the webmaster before they are posted on this site.
Paisleyskye
MOUS\A+\MCPx4
[This message has been edited by Paisleyskye (edited 11-22-2000).] | |
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| Eddie,
Paisleyskye's article was a warning against not buying into the hype of bootcamps. As Scamslam noted, the promoters of bootcamps promise ridiculous claims such as "Get your MCSE in a week!". There have been numerous topics on the news, the net, and anywhere you look about certifications on how useful these camps are. Frankly, paying tons of money for a couple weeks' worth of training is a ripoff. This is simply buying into people's gullibilty.
quote:
Why do we always go back to the same old thing about "paper" certs and so on? In now way is this meant to offend anyone, and I certainly enjoy the articles, but isn't the crux of this site and most of the other sites that offer forums and braindumps based on the same thing people are preaching against? Passing the Exams???? Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but it seems like it's ok if we post questions since this is a 'free' forum, but don't pay for it at a training facility or bootcamp.(?)
The reason paper certs are so much frowned upon, is NOT because people with them are taking jobs away from the experienced. I'm afraid you are a bit confused here. The problem is the opposite, that people are NOT getting jobs with certifications due to their lack of experience or true knowledge. Many employers now give no credit at all to a certification, and are requiring someone to have a degree or experience, neither of which guarantees knowledge either. If you go for an interview, and the 20 people ahead of you had their A+ and didn't know a thing, you might not even get an interview at all because that employer is disgusted with A+ technicians. Also, a braindump and a forum are not at all the same thing, a braindump is an illegal list of questions and answers from a real test that people study to cheat on their tests. And, a bootcamp and a training facility are also not the same thing. A training facility is a school, in which you are usually expected to study through books, lectures, and hands-on for months at a time. A bootcamp promises ridiculous claims within a short period of time. Also, college degrees in many cases hold little or no weight for the same reason you stated... they are primarily based on theory. One of my previous jobs was a place that turned down people with a Master's degree in Computer Science cause they didn't know a thing about a PC's hardware. We only hired A+.
quote:
Now before someone blasts me over this, I'll admit, my college degree is not in computers. But I recall most of what I did in college was read a thick book (That I payed WAY too much for), write pages of notes during lectures, and take 3 or 4 tests for my grade. A few years later, I had a degree. Seems to parallel studying for a certification exam a little.
I won't blast you over this at all. In many ways a certification is much like a degree. A certification though, is supposed to test your ability to perform a job, while a degree is typically a scholastic measurement.
quote:
I believe the intention of bootcamps are to get folks with experience and money to sign up for an express train to certification
land (and companies hopefully will pay the high cost for their employees). Should you go if you've never dealt with a network or client/server scenario? Heck No! You're right - you can't learn it in a weekend.
Sorry to say this, but your belief is wrong. I have never heard of a bootcamp that screens people out who lack experience, and the claims they make while advertising imply that you need little or no experience to pass, only their bootcamp.
quote:
I went to an MS training school for A+ and MCP and have mixed feelings now that I'm done. I think it was good because it was a very flexible schedule, and it helped me get my confidence up. Will I go back for further certs? Probably not. The whole deal was I wanted to switch careers and kept getting the whole catch 22: "Companies are so desparate they'll train you....." "Sorry Ed, you don't have any experience." So I got A+ and got an entry level help desk job.
Good for you Ed! Sounds like you made the right decision there.
quote:
To wrap this up, what I think is happening is we now spend our time worrying about certifications being watered down because of folks just scoring well on tests, and how this will drive down salaries, and how it will make jobs harder to get....It just sounds to me like people are buying into the "Get a Cert, Make $50K" line. I'd love to make more money, but I also understand that I needed to get into the industry to get that "experience" everyone talks about.
Paper certs do not lower salaries, because people with paper certs will never get anywhere. And they do make it harder to get a job, but that is because as more and more paper certs become common, more and more people are going to assume that YOU are a paper cert. And that is going to make it hard for anyone starting out in the industry. Your attitude of going for the experience and hoping to get a higher salary is a good one, and I hope your company is willing to train you or at least partially subsidise your training.
quote:
But the main point of my thread is that you need to focus on what you think is best, and if you're dedicated to learning, do just that. Learn as much as you possibly can. Get a certification or two or twelve and WORK HARD toward your goals. There will always be demand for qualified people - there will always be certs - there will always be companies making money off of YOU!
That is good advice.
Basically, most of what you said has actually corroborated what Paisleyskye has written in her article, which from what I can tell was well researched and really hits on an important topic of today. These bootcamps make grandiose promises like snake oil peddlers from the back of a wagon, and when all is said and done your pockets are empty and you're left with a head full of confusion, crushed hopes, and a bitter resentment towards the whole industry.
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SomeGuy A+ | |
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| You are pretty much on target with your analysis. I can add another point of view.
I have been working with PCs since the late 80s. I have built many, developed database apps in DOS, installed and administered Novell and NT networks. In the last few years I have been with a top consulting firm. Lately they have been running into the need for certified people no matter what the experience level. I have no certs.
In order to stay up with the demand I have scheduled my A+ exams and think I can pass on my experience with little study. I have taken a few CBTs and practice tests and hit around 90% on these. Hope I make it first time through.
The main reason I think companies want certs is that too many resumes exaggerate capabilities. Bottom line is that certs PLUS experience is the best. But the most important qualities are how you work with people and how you get that quality into your resume. I've seen lots of very qualified people with certs that don't do well because they can't deal with people.
Off my soapbox. Best to all on this board. | |
| Jeremy0578 2000-12-20, 2:45 pm |
| TRUE! I'm plain ****y when it comes to dealing,communicating with people.I hate people and all the Certs in the world couldn't change that.Who's going to hire the smarest ,most certified ******* in the world?Not many.The point is it's not how many certifications you have it's wether you obtain the actual skills needed for the job.Companies like Microsoft use these Certificate bandwagonies for pure profit gain and a cheap work force and really actually only maintain a relatively small percentage of good paid truly certified employees.Let's face it people don't love their jobs anymore they love the prospect of a job that produces large amounts of income not the satisfaction of furthering the industry they work in.That cannot be said for all but as alot of you pointed to there's alot of kids fresh out of high school that got the impression that by studying 2 or 3 years straight on certificates the rest of their life is made.NOT! :P |
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