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Home > Archive > General Discussion > October 2000 > mcse ON PAPER
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| EDDIE SHOCKS 2000-10-05, 12:23 pm |
| So you have a MCP or MCSE cert, so what! Soon this paper will be discarded like all the previous certs flushed by the NEW 2000 cert. Who knew? Well I complained early and often about the temporary nature of pursuing Microsoft NT accreditation, while NEW 2000 (2T)technology lurked around the corner. The high cost and lack of tangible value is a reality of the actual "instructor led" training. You better study on your own or forget it. The Greed of Bill drives the unlimited cost associated with taking the the Microsoft path. The exams themselves expose the flaw in the process, which is, a grade 10 education and minimal training materials will get you a pass, how hard is that. However to remain on Bill's Dream Stream you must pay to stay current
I despise those who say I am a paper MCSE and they are not. Who are you to tell me that my $20,000 is not incentive enough to lie cheat or steal to achieve the goal. After all those without any certs at all are by default the "winners". They paid nothing to secure their jobs and gained all their experience in the field. It is impossible to memorize all the answers!!! A person able to memorize 100 answers to exam questions must at least have the ability to achieve a passing grade if they so choose. Just like the smart kid is measured by his or her deviousness, so should these "cheaters" be recognized for their ingenuity.
Jane Blonde A+ MCSE CNA SCO | |
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| Cheating is too wide spread to for someone who does it to pass and exam to be recognized for their ingenuity.
I feel that so many people cheat on these exams, that it is the people that really dig in and learn and study that should be recognized for their ingenuity.
Anybody can pass an exam by cheating. The people who avoid the temptation to do so are in fact the "real winners" because the come out knowing something.
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Sincerely,
Paisleyskye
Best wishes and peace to all!!!
(MOUS WORD97 and EXCEL97, A+ Certified, MCP) | |
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| Another important note:
If the exams are so easy as you said in your post that a Grade 10 student could pass them , then let me ask you this - why would a person need to use the braindumps to cheat on the exams. If this were true, then braindumps wouldn't even exist!!!!!!!
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Sincerely,
Paisleyskye
Best wishes and peace to all!!!
(MOUS WORD97 and EXCEL97, A+ Certified, MCP) | |
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| Sounds like someone is highly unsatified with Microsoft's certification. Yes there are a lot of problems with certifications period and I believe that recruiters and vendors are aware of this fact.
True, you do not need a certification to get a job in the IT field nor maintain a position in the IT field, but many believe you do. Blame this on the hype of certifications.
Getting certified was SO hyped up a year or two ago and at the same time the IT industry blew up so-to-speak, that everyone wants in. No matter how they do it. Enter braindumps.
Believe it or not, but braindumps did not start out as they are now. They were just "forums" for folks to share their experiences.
Just like doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. you have to get recertified every so often. If you do not want to worry yourself with that, earn a degree and don't get certified. You CAN make it in IT without certification. If, on the other hand, you want certifications, grin and bear it because nothing will change until the "powers-that-be decide a change is necessary. | |
| Old fart 2000-10-05, 7:51 pm |
| The discussion on "Paper" or "Baby" MCSE's is very interesting for you as the student, but what does it mean to the employer?
As one of the old timers (23 Years Does Really Qualify Me), an employer, teacher, and JOAT, I have seeen this situation many times.
How does an employer react to the dilution of the quality of a certification? We don't. In most cases an employer looks at the certifications of a potential employee and uses those certifications to establish that this person MAY have the POTENTIAL to LEARN. Thats what we want the most in an employee. As for establishing the accuracy of the persons skills it is very simple to test for real knowledge. We can pick out the "Paper" people easily and quickly. As for Microsoft and the current certification situation, well this will sort itself out. The employers will hire for the skills they need, the training companies will adapt to meet the needs of the employers, and Microsoft will continue to do whatever they feel like doing. Your job as a student is to meet the employers expectations, not Microsoft's.
No Certifications, Some Courses, Lots of Experience, In Demand | |
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| Old Fart hit it right on the head. the potential to learn. As far as the paper MCSE's go, bring'em on! Though I don't whole hardly agree that there really is such a thing, I know people that don't know anything in the IT trade, just make me look that much better. If a person shows their lack of knowledge, what's he doing? He's working in the IT field! You can't know it all and until you make enough mistakes to gain the experience, I guesse you'll be a paper MCSE. Even Old Fart would probably tell you that with all his years of experience, he can walk into a situation and not have the immediate answer but the differnce is, he has the years to know how to find the answer and that is what seperates a average tech from a great tech; knowing how to get the answer. Bring it to me baby! | |
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| Bravo Old fart and Phantom 309. I couldn't agree with you more. Now the question I want to ask is "Why get certification?" Old Fart is doing well without certifications. I started out without certifications.
Do certifications really matter? Are they worth it? Can you make it in the IT field without them? | |
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| I agree with all the above! But I also like certifications.
I started out without certs. myself, although I did have a B.A. and one of my two AAS degrees in Comp. Sci.. However, I think the certs are worth it. One, as Old Fart stated, they show an ability to learn. Of course, I 've know certified techs that don't seem to know much or have an ability to learn, and I've worked with a tech, or two, that have lots of ability and few or no certs, but in a 30 minute interview I believe I will have a better chance at success if I have some paper to show that I am motivated, willing, and able to learn. Two, studying for a cert gives me a tangible goal to reach, which motivates me to spend the time studying material. I would not work as hard, or consistently, on it if I were just reading it to learn it for a job; aiming for a cert seems to adds more value to the process for me - and I learn it better. Three, certs are quicker to earn in the short term to give a person some credibility, so while I'm working on other degrees, or someone else is working on their first, the certs may open some doors for the interim.
Do I think you need to be certified to get into IT, or even to succeed in it? Certainly not. But I think they can give an employee an edge when necessary, and earning a cert motivates some of us to learn
A degree is good, too - in lieu of or in addition to certs. But, as anyone knows, a college degree doesn't mean you'll be the best employee either. It's merely another tool for measurement at the interview.
Of course, experience should play a strong part in a decision as well as all the above.
There are also the less tangibles that can affect our careers that any one of us need to be sensitive to as the interviewer or interviewee: Does this person interact well with others? Is this person reliable, considerate, attentive, and a team player? Do they have a stable work history, or a reasonable explanation for a smattering of jobs over a few short years? To me the answers to these types of questions is often equally important to the number of certs a person possesses, or the experience they have. And since I'm not the best tech in the industry, I certainly rely on my answers to these questions to help me succeed in the industry much more than certifications. | |
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| OK, I agree with the logic of getting a degree, and plan to do just that. At the momment, though, that isn't an option for me (the finances aren't there and there are other reasons that I would rather not go into because they would take too long to explain, suffice to say that I have immagrated to South Africa and leave it at that).
At the momment I am working on getting an MCSE (better late than never). I don't have much experience, and I have no salary/position illusions. I realize that I will most likely end up in an entry level position, and am willing to work for a short time with no pay while I am learning the real world application of what I am learning for the exams (though there is no way I could do this long term, not for any other reason than I do need to earn a salary at some point to pay the bills).
I don't use Braindumps, I do use the wealth of study information out there. I am trying to learn the concepts rather than the exams (if your just learning the exams, don't bother, the actual work enviornment will murder you).
I do realize that there is no substitute for experience. I also realize that until someone gives you a chance, your never going to GET that experience. Which is why I disagree with employers having a strict "no experience, no job" policy. Again, while it's true that book-learning will never replace experience, if you are just starting out, and you have to have experience to get a job, your sunk (ever hear of the catch-22?)
Also, does personal count for anything? for instance, in my case, I have nearly 20 years experience with computers, but only 1 year working in the industry. Does the 20 years I have been using/troublshooting/building/supporting/networking computers on my own mean nothing?
Anyway, just my $0.02
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| Dr.Floyd 2000-10-08, 3:28 pm |
| The value of Vendor certification is exactly that it is a vendor specific requirement, and that the company that you work for, or trying to work for uses this a sales tool or a gauge to measure skill sets. I know of no other replacement for true on the job training to teach you the little ins and out of our industry. Current employees use these to try to advance in their department, and new employee’s uses this along with other education and experience to land a position with a company. As for the value of them, they are only as valuable as the people who want them.
That’s my take on it.
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| Also, keep in mind that companies that are vendor "solution providers" typically are required to have a certain number of individuals employed with them that possess that vendor's certifications. So, if you are applying for or employed by such an organization, there likely to look at you over an uncertified interviewee or an employee that isn't staying motivated to get certified.
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