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Where should I start in programming
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| curiousgeorge 2004-02-19, 1:21 pm |
| I am a network admin. I haven't done any programming since my college days 15 years ago. And I forgot everything that I learned.
Where should I begin (which languages and in what order)?
Thanks to all that reply. | |
| Dr. C 2004-02-20, 12:54 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by curiousgeorge
I am a network admin. I haven't done any programming since my college days 15 years ago. And I forgot everything that I learned.
Where should I begin (which languages and in what order)?
Thanks to all that reply.
This is a hars question to answer since *why* you want to program and *what* you wish to do with yout skills is important in determining your first language. If you are a Windows sysadmin, I would suggest that you first start learning DOS batch programming. Yes, I know, "DOS is dead", right? Wrong. Many of the old DOS commands are still around in Windows and can automate some of the tasks that you rotuinely wish to do. If you are a Unix admin, then learn the syntax for the Bourne shell in order to automate mahy of your tasks in that environment. At first this consists mainly of stringing together common commands in sequence, but later you will need to make use of conditions and use your scripts to make decisions based upon input or other things.
If you are into web design, you might start using ASP, Perl or PHP, as they are most commonly used for web scripting and are used for simpler tasks than heavy-duty languages.
For a general sarter list, I can tell you this: Bourne shell, DOS Batch files, Tcl, Visual Basic, Python, PHP, HTML, Pascal, and SQL may make good starting languages. COBOL may be useful in certain circumstances.
Assembly, C, C++, C#, Objective C, Java, LISP, etc. are for experienced programmers. If you start out with one of these languages, it will probably be your last. They are too confusing and complicated for beginners.
Tell me more what you want to do and maybe I can give you some more pointers. | |
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| Take a look at the HTML and XML.. for website
Then into Java, Javascript,... | |
| DaDnDe 2004-02-29, 11:35 am |
| take my advice...
DONT start with C
actually one of the best is html.
it is easy to learn, and it gives you instantly verifiable results without any special software.
all you need is notepad(any plain text editor) and a browser.
plus it has so much "add on" stuff. after you get the basics of html, then throw in a little css or java if you are daring...
the best thing is that it was easy to learn a little, implement it, learn a little more, etc.
C is tough and very complicated especially after the first couple chapters. that "hello world" is easy to do but not easy to understand.
for me it involved downloading several hundred MB of extra programs, all of which had to be learned to be used effectively. so i was looking at double duty. i soon realized that close to a month of pretty intense exploring was necessary to even begin to understand the compliers and libraries and add ons etc before i could even start with learning C. | |
| aznluvsmc 2004-03-15, 10:25 pm |
| I'm also majoring in network admin and would like to dwelve into programming but specifically scripting. I just need to know to write scripts for Unix and Windows to automate tasks. I think I will start with Visual Basic. I know my DOS batch files and I'm pretty proficient with Unix scripting in BASH but I have another 3 semesters left in school to tweak my skills. | |
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| quote:
Originally posted by DaDnDe
take my advice...
DONT start with C
actually one of the best is html.
it is easy to learn, and it gives you instantly verifiable results without any special software.
all you need is notepad(any plain text editor) and a browser.
plus it has so much "add on" stuff. after you get the basics of html, then throw in a little css or java if you are daring...
the best thing is that it was easy to learn a little, implement it, learn a little more, etc.
C is tough and very complicated especially after the first couple chapters. that "hello world" is easy to do but not easy to understand.
for me it involved downloading several hundred MB of extra programs, all of which had to be learned to be used effectively. so i was looking at double duty. i soon realized that close to a month of pretty intense exploring was necessary to even begin to understand the compliers and libraries and add ons etc before i could even start with learning C.
Very good advice. | |
| dmaftei 2004-04-14, 6:29 pm |
| HTML and XML are not programming languages, folks. And SQL hardly qualifies as "programming". | |
| azimuth40 2004-04-14, 6:41 pm |
| Ah another O.G. I figured that scripting versus programming debate wasn't worth it 
As far as SQL there is always PL/SQL for a charge | |
| dmaftei 2004-04-14, 6:43 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by azimuth40
Ah another O.G.
What's an "O.G."? | |
| azimuth40 2004-04-14, 9:11 pm |
| oh my. Well in todays music (sic) it would be Original Gangsta. In the programmers jargon file it would be a level below the First Ones (F.O.'s), that is, Original programming Gods or those who have written tons of lines of code in C/C++, asm Fortran, Algol, PL/I, Pascal etc. back when hacker was not a dirty word.
I do not consider myself an OG; hardware, microcode, and state machines were my first love. However I have done all of the above languages and long ago passed the MLOC level in C which I took up seriously in the early 80's from K&R 1. I had a primative C on CP/M until Lattice came out for the PC but was really doing mainframe Algol on B6800's along with a little RATFOR.
OG's typically do not consider scripting, true programming which should only be a level or two above moving CPU registers. If you can't visually see them then you can't program them. | |
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| PL/1!! Man haven't heard anyone reference that language in a coversation in years. A great language in its day. I remember writing a few simulation programs in PL/1 by in my college days.  | |
| dmaftei 2004-04-14, 10:24 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by azimuth40
Original programming Gods or those who have written tons of lines of code in C/C++, asm Fortran, Algol, PL/I, Pascal etc. back when hacker was not a dirty word.
I see. Well, no, I'm not an "O.G.". It's true that for the last 12 years or so I've been making a living writing programs in C and C++, and occasionally Java, Lisp, Python, shell, Scheme, and maybe others. But I ain't no "O.G.". I'm wondering why you called me an "O.G."...
Anyway, that doesn't change the fact that HTML and XML are not programming languages, nor are they scripting languages (as you're implying if I'm getting it), since they are markup languages. programming versus markup, quite different businesses, aren't they? | |
| DaDnDe 2004-04-14, 10:54 pm |
| well i suggested HTML because its easy to learn and still requires the same basic skills as programming does although planning isnt as critical in HTML, syntax is.
as i stated in my post, he is just starting out and has never programmed. i suggested HTML simply because if he didnt like it, he will hate real programming.
i specifically told him NOT TO START WITH C.
that maybe good advice or bad advice depending on your school of thought. but HTML is free and easy. I dont think most people can or want to program. but most dont know it until they try it. HTML is simply a good way to see if one has the mentality and certain kind of perseverance to do the work. | |
| azimuth40 2004-04-14, 10:55 pm |
| True as its name implies however when I think HTML I think of a superset collection of tools. If you use it solely as a markup language then true but some type of scripting is always included. HTML is rarely used by itself and Netscape introduced Javascript early in the live of the web to overcome the markup only limitations. | |
| azimuth40 2004-04-14, 11:15 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DaDnDe
well i suggested HTML because its easy to learn and still requires the same basic skills as programming does although planning isnt as critical in HTML, syntax is.
as i stated in my post, he is just starting out and has never programmed. i suggested HTML simply because if he didnt like it, he will hate real programming.
i specifically told him NOT TO START WITH C.
that maybe good advice or bad advice depending on your school of thought. but HTML is free and easy. I dont think most people can or want to program. but most dont know it until they try it. HTML is simply a good way to see if one has the mentality and certain kind of perseverance to do the work.
yuk that is like the original basic pre Visual and Real variants. We will probably never agree on whether HTML is programming so I am not going there. I have watched many people go straight to C with little difficulty. People used to do it when Newsgroups and Fidonet ruled before Tim Berners-Lee and Mike Sendall dreamed up the Web concept. If they have the ability to be a programmer then they might as well find out right away. Then they can go back to being users of programs and complain about stupid programmer and their should be obvious bugs.
As far as cost bring up a cheap Linux box for 100 bucks and download a distribution and all the tools are free. Use the tools in text mode and learn the basics or learn that programming is not for you. | |
| mikop 2004-04-14, 11:24 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by azimuth40
As far as cost bring up a cheap Linux box for 100 bucks and download a distribution and all the tools are free. Use the tools in text mode and learn the basics or learn that programming is not for you.
As I mentioned in the other post, there are quite many alternative even in windows world.
it is just like notepad vs dreamweaver. I don't see it being a problem or a reason to go html over a more traditional programming approach.
If you need a commercial package, then you prolly utilize the included library and are making commercial products, then I don't see it being an issue of paying for Visual Studio and other commercial packages.
I don't find C/C++ difficult. At least in learning the mechanics of it. How you translate that into something practical is another issue but then again, if one can't do it with c/c++, then they just won't cut it and will be caught up with the simpiest loop.
I also like what said az... I always say to myself that others are no smarter than I am. In the case where they are smarter, then I can compensate by working harder. I don't look for reason to fail, I look for reason to succeed. I follow my superiors and others who I identify to be worthy of my emulation, to identify reasons for their success etc. I don't try to be the bum who has it easy at the office. | |
| dmaftei 2004-04-15, 8:48 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by azimuth40
some type of scripting is always included
A novel in which a character recites a few poems is still prose, not poetry. | |
| azimuth40 2004-04-15, 2:27 pm |
| hmmm OK  | |
| iggy4270 2004-04-15, 11:00 pm |
| python | |
| Dr. C 2004-04-16, 11:21 am |
| HTML is not a programming language. Nonetheless I find it a good place to start. Not leastwise because it gives you a good jumping off-point to begin doing some simple scripting . . . you can often get somebody doing HTML, and soon enough they will discover that they want to do something thay HTML can't do, so they will naturally have to extend their skill set. From that point, learning some JavaScript or PHP or VBScript . . . all easy languages, will come naturally sunce it helps you do what you need to get done. I think teaching someone C/C++/Java or assembly as a first language is too complicated. I find that this puts off more students than it helps. Python would also be a good choice to start with. But from my experience, when you force feed C to someone, they usually end up dropping it because of its complexity. After they are pretty good programemrs, they will enjoy the flexibility and power of C or the usefulness of Java, but starting them out there in this day I find is a mistake. I also find C and assembly easy, but I have been using them for almost 20 years. For newcomers, the case is different. | |
| DaDnDe 2004-04-16, 12:03 pm |
| i dont claim that HTML is programming simply because it isnt.
not even close really, but it does contain some of the elements necessary to program successfully. Add some CSS and Javascript and it resembles programming even more.
but HTML is nothing but a type of Word Processing for the net. Instead of icons to click on for formatting tricks, you must code it by hand. But because of the exact syntax required to make the code work, it resembles programming in the way that attention to detail is required.
it is an area where one single character out of place will render the entire page completely different then one would expect.
it is also something that any computer already has the tools to perform. all you need is a text editor.
to learn any other program will almost certainly require additional stuff. now whether it costs $100 or $10, it will still cost.
also finding syntax errors are similiar whether you are using a markup, script or a compiler. | |
| Dr. C 2004-04-16, 12:12 pm |
| quote:
Originally posted by DaDnDe
i dont claim that HTML is programming simply because it isnt.
not even close really, but it does contain some of the elements necessary to program successfully. Add some CSS and Javascript and it resembles programming even more.
but HTML is nothing but a type of Word Processing for the net. Instead of icons to click on for formatting tricks, you must code it by hand. But because of the exact syntax required to make the code work, it resembles programming in the way that attention to detail is required.
it is an area where one single character out of place will render the entire page completely different then one would expect.
it is also something that any computer already has the tools to perform. all you need is a text editor.
to learn any other program will almost certainly require additional stuff. now whether it costs $100 or $10, it will still cost.
also finding syntax errors are similiar whether you are using a markup, script or a compiler.
Most computers also have some sort of assemblers and shell scripting facilities which will serve you well for free, and the last tome I checked, gcc, Python, PHP, Perl, and any one of about 40 other languages were all free. HTML itself isn't programming, but if you use it for any length of time, you will soon find the need for a programming language to extend it.
JavaScript is programming, however . . . it is a complete language just like many others, although people usually don;t use it as such.
As for the difference between scripting and programming, I don't make much of a distinction there. If you compile a progam, it is a "program", if you interpret it, it is a "scipt". | |
| onoski 2004-08-07, 12:36 pm |
| It is quite a shame to see how some of your feedbacks are negative. If programming in C or Java are so complex how come it is taught in universities? Nothing is easy is life as long as you are willing to sacrifice and work hard with time and keen interest any programming language can be learnt. Just my honest opinion, no one is saying anyone should reinvent the wheel? Or correct me if I'd got your pointers wrong smart dudes. | |
| seannmc 2004-08-09, 6:18 pm |
| quote:
before Tim Berners-Lee and Mike Sendall dreamed up the Web concept.
What? You mean Al Gore didn't invent it when he invented the internet?  | |
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| me? I dunno... 2004-09-17, 10:25 pm |
| Hey George, how's it going?
I have decided to have a kick at c++.
its not so bad, got a c++ for dummies book, so far so good.
pointers was a slight hurdle, but google yields tons of c++ info and it seems easy to find relative to particular topic.
http://richardbowles.tripod.com/cpp/cpp18.htm
rock on... | |
| sandy7000 2004-09-20, 6:13 am |
| If you want a "quick" way (in a VERY relative sense) to start programming, WinBatch is a good option. It's a hybrid between C++ (in my opinion), DOS, and Windows. Parts of it have been pre-created so you don't have to worry about coding pop up windows, etc.
I've taken C++. If you can fight through it, it's a great base for other languages. | |
| mikeghet1 2004-11-12, 2:01 am |
| "As for the difference between scripting and programming, I don't make much of a distinction there. If you compile a progam, it is a "program", if you interpret it, it is a "scipt"."
not to play with words, but java is interpeted(JRE) and compiled(byte code) ;-)
Really there is no right or wrong response, as it depends on the individual. I think HTML is a good place to start, too. It gets you used to using syntax, which is a start. Typically a computer science major will start with c++ or java. So why can't you? I think if you start with java you would be alright, so long as you are really wanting to learn.
If you are really serious, then I recommend taking a digital logic class, then assembly(motorla processor or intel), then C, then C++, or java. Of course you wouldn't be concerned with these if you were writing scripts for a Unix box or windows box. | |
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| quote:
Originally posted by curiousgeorge
I am a network admin. I haven't done any programming since my college days 15 years ago. And I forgot everything that I learned.
Where should I begin (which languages and in what order)?
Thanks to all that reply.
And why do you want to learn programming?
to accomplish what?
make 8-bit or flash games which remind you
of Atari2600 or Coleco?
[btw, %80-90 of flash work is programming]
forget about java, c++, .net; too many advanced people know them and they cant get jobs. | |
| ChrisDfer 2005-01-07, 12:14 am |
| Knowing a programming language doesn't make you a programmer... programming *to me* has more to do with effectively using the language and using/designing effective algorithms to accomplish the tasks at hand.
A monkey could learn C,C++, or Java but only an Indian can learn to program. | |
| mikeghet1 2005-01-07, 6:04 am |
| "Knowing a programming language doesn't make you a programmer... programming *to me* has more to do with effectively using the language and using/designing effective algorithms to accomplish the tasks at hand.
A monkey could learn C,C++, or Java but only an Indian can learn to program.
__________________
"
if you program something are you not a programmer? if you program something are you not programming?
if being a programmer means getting paid, then yes, there are a lot of people that can program, but aren't programmers. I don't think a monkey can learn how to program, but if they can, then that says alot about the people that don't know how to. you could write a 'hello world' program, then you would have programmed. I assume what you're suggesting is that a certain level of understanding determines if one is a programmer or merely someone that prgramms(doesn't make sense), because as i said someone that programs is a programmer. If you're not suggesting a programmer is determined by their job title, then what are you using as you measurement? perhaps skills? If so, then what skills would a person need to be considered a programmer?
To gomar; the people that programmed the interface for this website are probably not indian...the people that program your video games are not indian, by nationality. All the IT places where A+ techs work at usualy have a software develpment team, which aren't indian(by nationality...usually). Sure there are jobs going to india...what jobs though? Usually jobs that require no other skills except knowing how to programm...essentially one dimensional people that can't make it in a Western work force.
Type in java at monster.com or 'c++' and you'll see how many jobs there are. The thing is that normally to get a programming job you need several skills(a degree), whereas a CCNA can go get his/her often one-skill-needed 25-35k job at some helpdesk or Jr network admin, but so can a computer science/eletrical engineer major. Except the person with the degree typically has a much better fiancial future.
I found a website(infact anti-bush somewhat) and in my state, california, and DC they didn't have any IT jobs gone. Maybe it wasn't exactly accurate, but I honestly haven't read many recent readings about US jobs going to india. I do read, however, about the manufacturing jobs going to China/mexico, etc.
gomar, maybe you can expand on the lack of jobs in the pgoramming field, which is large. | |
| ChrisDfer 2005-01-07, 10:59 am |
| quote:
Originally posted by mikeghet1
if you program something are you not a programmer? if you program something are you not programming?
That's like saying "if you build a bird house, are you not a carpenter?" Seriously now... There is more to programming then knowing the syntax.
quote:
Originally posted by mikeghet1
if being a programmer means getting paid, then yes, there are a lot of people that can program, but aren't programmers. I don't think a monkey can learn how to program, but if they can, then that says alot about the people that don't know how to. you could write a 'hello world' program, then you would have programmed. I assume what you're suggesting is that a certain level of understanding determines if one is a programmer or merely someone that prgramms(doesn't make sense), because as i said someone that programs is a programmer. If you're not suggesting a programmer is determined by their job title, then what are you using as you measurement? perhaps skills? If so, then what skills would a person need to be considered a programmer?
Getting paid or having the job title programmer has nothing to do with it(most the time)... Someone could be a freaking plumber and be considered a programmer if they knew what they were doing, I am betting there are also people out there who happen to be programmers in their jobs, who couldn't really program anything...
I think you were actually right when you said you become a programmer once you reach a certain understanding... but it goes further then just knowing language, it has to do with understanding proper design, effective use of algorithms, understanding of the systems being worked on...
So someone who writes scripts to test programs are not programmers. Someone who writes stupid php scripts(me) are not programmers, someone who writes simple operating systems in C and ASM(me), although cool, are not programmers. I suppose some would say the correct terms would be hobbyist programmers vs. programmers, but I do not think that is fitting either... because a garbage man(sanitation engineer) who managed to gain the knowledge level needed to be what *I consider* a programmer is obviously a programmer.... | |
| mikeghet1 2005-01-07, 8:16 pm |
| "I think you were actually right when you said you become a programmer once you reach a certain understanding... but it goes further then just knowing language, it has to do with understanding proper design, effective use of algorithms, understanding of the systems being worked on...
"
a freshly graduated CS major that applies for a 'programming' job and gets it is a programmer, right? a CS student 'should' know about algorithms, software engineering concepts and the architecture of the device they are programming, yet not have a so-called 'programming' job...wouldn't sucha person still be a programmer? i think job and/or skills determine your title. to me, the plumber that knows about algorithms, software engineering concepts and computer architecture is a programmer, even if he only gets paid to fix my sink.
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| moreilly 2005-04-23, 2:55 pm |
| Hi, how is the transition from admin to programmer going?
I'm in a similar situation; admin on a Novell network, but I'm interested in programming. Current, I am taking a C++ class as a foundation. Soon I hope have more career direction such as C++, Web development (Dreamweaver, Frontpage, Flash, and even SQL and Cold Fusion are possibilities).
Hope to see your transition is going well. How is the progress going?
Matthew |
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But, then again, it was more interesting to listen to corn grow than the VB instructor.